My in laws have a Sony Analogue TV – TV itself is great with very good picture quality.

They had crappy reception so I advised them to get another antenna installed as well as run a new cable from the antenna to the TV.

Just popped in this arvo, they got an antenna guy to install a new digital antenna, but didn't get him to run a new cable... doh

Anyway, channel reception is now as follows:
Channel 2 – Bit of persistent snow.
Channel 7 – Scrolling horizontal interference lines.
Channel 9 – Perfect.
Channel 10 – Distinctive blurring of edges (i.e. seems like there is a slight halo effect around peoples outlines on the screen).
Channel 28 – Perfect.
Channel 31 – Pretty good.

The installer said there was interference in the house and this was causing the above problems.

He recommended they purchase a Digital TV to match the digital antenna and the problems would be eliminated.

Would this be correct? If so, could I just buy a set top box and connect this to the TV. SD or HD – I'm thinking just a SD would be fine.

What are people thoughts re the above, plus recommendations for a set top box that is "hassle" free. In laws are not technical at all.

Ta.

Why did you say to replace the cable... was it old, damaged, unsuitable for digital?

If so, even though not requested, the installer should have replaced it, or at least advised your in-laws if it required replacing.

If there are interference issues, these may also result in intermittent, or even no digital reception.

Did the installer actually test the digital signals to see how they performed?

Don't rely on any STB to work ok if the antenna/cabling isn't up to scratch and interference issues are not resolved.

Healing STB's are very good at rejecting impulse noise interference, but only to a certain level.

I'd recommend an HD box. Even though the TV will only display in SD quality, it will provide extra channels with different programming (eventually) to the SD channels.

The existing cable is quite a few years old, thought it would be best to have it replaced.
As I wasn't there I can't comment on what was said - in laws are not technical in any way, hence anything said is lost in transit (chinese whispers as such).



He did do some testing with a meter, etc but that is all I can get out of the in laws. VERY frustrating....




I suppose some STB's are better than others, I really need one which is very reliable with little (or no) ongoing maintenance.
Any suggestions?

Thanks.

Very frustrating if you are not there to get the 'facts' first-hand.

Healing HHT893 is a great HD box. Excellent performer and PQ and reliable.

Hopefully the measurements the installer made indicated the digital reception will be ok.

Either way, try a STB... then deal with any reception issues if required, once you can 'see' them.

STBs are really very basic pieces of equipment these days. They've gone through a maturation process over the past 5+ years and these days there's very little to differentiate between models.

I suggest you just grab a cheap $100 STB and plug it in. Let the store know your concerns about reception and its likely they'll allow you to bring it back in a week if its not good enough. Judging by your current analogue reception description, you'll probably have crystal clear images on ALL channels via a STB.

Note that HD STBs aren't just about picture quality. Different shows can be broadcast on HD channels than on the SD counterparts.

As a last suggestion, rather than getting a simple STB you could consider a PVR (A STB with a hard drive). Read here about them.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

Can't believe the installer didn't try and upsell them some cabling....and I thought there was a Recession on??

If the above comment led you to believe that essentially all STBs these days are much the same, IMO it would've been unfortunately worded.

With a 'perfect' reception signal, it's probably true that most STBs perform pretty much the same (at least in terms of delivering an OK picture). Some however may be different to others in that they may not automatically adjust to changes in the transmission parameters. This is probably because they don't correctly conform to the required specifications.

However, there can be very big differences in performance between STBs in situations where the received signal is less than perfect, in particular where it is poor and has many impairments.

I think it's important to be aware of the potential differences. They do exist.
You would hope that as you pay more for models/brands of digital receivers (STBs, PVRs, TVs) that you would be guaranteed to be getting better performance, but I'm not sure that's always a safe bet either.


There is some more information in this thread over here.

Based on the OPs run down of analogue reception (and assuming he's getting digital broadcasts in his region) then I'd anticipate he'll likely be getting pretty much A1 digital reception - classic household that will go 'wow' when a STB is hooked up . At this stage I wouldn't be looking to try fix problems where they are unlikely to exist.

Agree that highlighting potential issues is always good, but in many cases an awareness of the downside can result in a poorer decision being made (eg higher expense for no appreciable improvement in outcome)

Regards

Peter Gillespie

I beg to differ.

There are set top box brands sold in my regional area I don't install for people, as they are substandard.

Why, even today I was asked to look at an issue with a new release Palsonic LCD HDTV that appears out to be an inability to cope with a +125KHz offset on 2 of the local commercial UHF channels.

wtf in this day and age?

Reported

Fair enough. I'm using a less rigorous rule of thumb. I walk into Dick Smith/Good Guys/Kmart I can walk out with 25 different STBs. Aside from any that we're just plain defunct, I'd wager I could plug these into 95%+ of homes (in digital reception areas) and get pretty much the same channels, same PQ with a remote that allowed me to change the channels. I'd expect the middle value ones to have a bit more polish and probably a few extra output options.

There's always trouble spots and a model or two are indeed going to have an inability to cope with a +125KHz offset (which is why we still need antenna guys:)) but in the main STBs are about as plug and play as you can get these days. Retailers are generally happy for you to try one out and if it doesn't work bring it back and get another model. So rather than worry too much, these days I suggest getting a STB (that's not the absolute cheapest you can find) and see.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

The OP was asking for a reliable set top box for the in-laws.
As the suck-it-and-see STB selection approach could well result in multiple visits to the various shops to return and try products again, that wouldn't be my advice.

The OP also expressed an understanding that he had that "some STB's are better than others", which I would agree with. And I've given some of the main reasons
He wanted one "which is very reliable with little (or no) ongoing maintenance".

Digital receivers are not basic pieces of equipment, in particular with respect to the functionality they have within to receive and demodulate the complex digital transmissions. The sophisticated Forward Error Correction (FEC) systems that are an inherent part of the DVB-T transmissions are what deliver a reliable quality of reception to the end-user.

Some boxes are so cheap they are pretty much a commodity item now. This doesn't mean they are a good buy, in particular where the signal may not be the best. The chipsets are what make these 'boxes' work, and there are performance differences between chipsets (and their implementation).

An example of this is happening right now. Just look at the number of relatively recent posts on this forum with poor SBS reception, some of which are quite likely to be simply caused by the (temporary) on-going transmitter work SBS are doing. A good STB which is able to handle poor signal conditions would most likely ride out these temporary changes without anything being noticed. Poorer quality designs are likley to give signal break-up problems.
And the rationale of 'walk-in walk-out' STB selection isn't going to help when these situations occur down the track. Too late to return it.




Again, one of the main differentiators of an STB IMO relates to how well they work out in the field with customers. It's all about reliable reception with varying signal conditions.

This is not a 'given', your points above don't seem to take this into account. I often have to explain this to customers, because it hasn't been identified to them before.

As I've said before, with good signal reception, most STBs should be 'expected' to just work. It's when reception conditions are less than ideal that the differences show.
And when STBs don't work, this could be because of poor quality reception, or simply because they don't properly conform to the relavant standards.

All,
Get one which is Freeview approved so that it will decode MPEG4 compression which will be used in the future

It is essential that the STB gets a good antenna signal

Go to the Geographic Viewers’ Forum, which is near the bottom of the main forum’s home page. Select your region and read the pinned post “Get the Best Reception”. Please post any further correspondence in that strand for all in your region to see. I will see it anyway. You could also search your location in that strand for others in your area.

AlanH

As for whether the decoding is MPEG-2 or MPEG-4, this part of the process comes after the digital signal has been recovered. As such, it won't help with reliable digital reception with poor signals.

And by the time MPEG-4 gets out there, it would probably be time to change your $150 STB anyway.




Of course it is, but this doesn't always happen in practice.

And, like with most things, there are laws of diminishing return with this. It may cost hundreds of dollars more to make major changes to an antenna installation in tricky spots, whereas close to the existing signal might be OK if a better performing STB was used.

Its always a balance IMO (which is why its great everyone gets to say their 2 bits here). Anyway probably enough discussion, the OP has been recommended a single option so far which they can try hunt down and see how that goes if they so decide.

This advise seems a little simple without also adding that such a box

a) Will cost more

b) Isn't actually available to buy yet

c) Is likely to be thrown out before MPEG4 is ever broadcast in Oz (5-10+ years away)

Regards

Peter Gillespie

The Healing HHT893 is one recommendation. I'm sure there are others.


In case it helps, these are probably good hunting grounds.
But have a good look and see if the functionality matches what you want. They have had good reviews.


Dpanda
http://www.dpanda.com.au/p/830835/healing-...nd-s-video.html

Hantrex
http://www.australiandigitaltv.com/healing/index.htm

WOW - Haven't checked the forum for a couple of days.

Looks like I started quite a debate.

Will be following up on your responses over the next couple of days - probably looking at doing something this weekend for the inlaws - just a STB though - in laws could not comprehend how to use a PVR.

I am very familiar with PVR's having gone through the Topfield 5000PVRt Masterpiece, then onto a 2009 Mac Mini with an Elgato Diversity Dual Digital Tuner USB stick which I then dumped for a Topfield 7100PVRt (got that last week).

WOW - Haven't checked the forum for a couple of days.

Looks like I started quite a debate.

Will be following up on your responses over the next couple of days - probably looking at doing something this weekend for the inlaws - just a STB though - in laws could not comprehend how to use a PVR.

I am very familiar with PVR's having gone through the Topfield 5000PVRt Masterpiece, then onto a 2009 Mac Mini with an Elgato Diversity Dual Digital Tuner USB stick which I then dumped for a Topfield 7100PVRt (got that last week).

Let's know how you get on.

Geoff,
Care to share a quick summary paragraph of your experience with that (squeeze it into this existing thread maybe...)?

Here are some links here and here from the MacTalk forums re the Elgato tuners.

If you do a search there you will gleen a whole pile of info.

In short though, the 2009 Mac Mini "seems" to have a problem processing the HD streams - BUT - this all depends who you listen to LOL.

It certainly caused me some problems, and I will be selling both my tuners. NOTE: If you have a faster Mac/PC, then the issues would not be apparent.

Hope this helps.

Thanks Geoff, interesting.

But did my eyes deceive me, was there talk of a Mac 'crashing', and needing 're-booting'.
I thought that never happened.

LOL - it does happen, but very rarely

I moved to the mac platform at home about a year ago after spending over 20 years mucking around with windows pc's.
I found the Mac O/S (OS X - currently 10.5.6) is far more stable with an up time of 90 to 95%.
Depending what you are running a mac can be up for months and months without problems.
The problem I had was causing a "kernel panic" which was to do with an issue (most people believe if you read a lot of forums) to do with the Elgato and Apple digital sound output interfacing - that's about as much as I understand.

Anyway, using the Toppy as a separate PVR is a good idea anyway I think.

Was beginning to wonder if we we're just talking amongst ourselves Good luck with the 7100 and finding a suitable STB. If you wanted to test out reception at the inlaws you could always take it up and plug it in.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

What was finally purchased?

I am in similar boat. My mom today moved into an apartment so I guess would be a communal antenena. Not sure how the reception is until I see her tonight. Ultimately I'd like to get her an stb as well. I see a HD one is recommended even though she only have a 28" Panasonic analogue TV.

Rgds
Pat

Hopefully doing something this weekend - will update everyone once done.

Quick question while I think of it - As my in-laws have a 4x3 analogue tv, I need a STB that will allow me to crop the wide screen portion of the signal. This way there won't be any horizontal black bars (top & bottom of picture if widescreen is displayed on 4x3 tv). - hope that makes sense - LOL

All boxes will allow you to zoom in to fill the 4:3 screen, but be aware that by doing so, you will lose part of the picture on both sides as a result.

To view the whole 16:9 image on a 4:3 screen, you will have black bars on the top and bottom.

That's OK.

In laws are currently loosing the 16:9 portion of the image on their 4:3 screen, the end result for them with a STB will be good picture quality (which is what they are after).

When they change their TV at a later stage they would get a 16:9 screen then.

Thanks mtv...

Just ONE more question.

Kinda leaning towards the Healing HHT893..

Now this may sound dumb but I don't know and need to clarify

The antenna loop-out - this outputs the processed digital signal in analogue format so the picture is clear - yes??

The existing TV only has the RF antenna input for connectivity.

No.

For that, you will either require a Healing HST817, or you will need to plug the HHT893 into the AV inputs of a VCR that has a RF modulator connected to the TV.


(Interestingly, and in a totally spurious aside, the Healing HST817 is shown in the Qualified Products download from the government's digitalready site having a "Ready HD" label. It is a SD device only.)

Thanks for confirming that M'bozo,

I will check the TV this afternoon - it already has the A/V input connected with the DVR.

The Healing HST817 will allow the connection of another AV device via a SCART connector on the rear of the unit if you only have one A/V I/P available on the TV.

Or even if you only have RF only.

They are quite handy in this way.

Is it a good unit?
Does it keep its memory if power is lost?
Is the channel change time slow?

Geoff,

Have only installed 4 HST817s. 2 were faulty initially, one came good of its own accord & has not failed since, one was exchanged.

Based on previous models, of which I have installed many, Healing STBs have been very reliable.

Past perfomance is no guarantee of future performance, however the backup & service of Healing I would rate as excellent.

The HST817s keep their memory, and channel change is quick.

The only downside is they need to be kept powered up if you need loop through of the RF signal, as this does not occur when in standby. This may not be an issue, but needs to be kept in mind.

Marc.

Well what a day!!!!

Mother's Day tomorrow - Fountain Gate shopping centre was mayhemic - no car parking except in the council chamber area.....

Dick Smith Powerhouse only had Topfield STB's - too expensive
Harvey Norman - all STB's too expensive

Went to Cranbourne..
JB Hifi - all cheaper STB's sold out
Good Guys - no cheap STB's
Beta Electrical - same same

Driving out - saw Harvey Norman - dropped in - they had one Strong SRT5012 SD STB left - box had pricing of $79 with a separate $70 sticker - good enough - thang u very much

Installed it at the in laws - the Sharp TV had a spare A/V input (checked this earlier in the day).

Install was a breeze - made a favourites group with 7, 9, 10, ABC1, ABC2, SBS1, SBS2 - beeaaauuuutifullll....

In the end I decided on the cheaper SD STB - no point in buying a HD STB - in laws don't need One Digital (24/7 sports).

They were amazed at the clarity of all the channels - simple to use - a good days work.

Many thanks for everyone's input on this one - good result in the end :thumbs up:

Couple of problems have popped up since the install.

Signal strength for Channels 9 is always about 12%-15% & Channel 10 is always about 22%-26%.

Strange though, Channel 9 picture is always excellent, however Channel 10 picture sometime becomes blocky, then "no signal" error message appears, then the picture comes back and is good again.

Is their a signal booster or something I could try, or maybe I need to reposition the direction the antenna is facing?

Are all the TV Channel broadcast towers in the same location?

I need a bit of help on this one.

NB: All other channels have signal strength in the high 80's to 90's.

Where are you located (Cranbourne or Fountaingate are suburbs of...?)

How old is the antenna?

have you tried another outlet to check that it's not just the cabling?

Hampton Park
New antenna
Antenna guy didn't change the cable from the antenna to the tv point (only one tv point in the house). - I was kinda mad with the inlaws that they didn't get the antenna cable changed.
However it seems weird that Channel 9 with a lower signal strength has a perfect picture all the time, but Channel 10's picture has problems.

That's assuming that the in-built 'metering' of the STB is actually giving you useful, correct info.

Many times I've seen in-built metering give quite incorrect information.
Even to the point of 'showing' that the signal strength has reduced, quality improved, when in fact it is actually the other way around.

Just look at the number of posts on the forum where people report 99% quality and strength, and still have problems.
Unfortunately, in-built STB metering is often wrong.


So in your above situation, what do the results mean? Who really knows.
Is it meaningful? Maybe, maybe not.

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SO, my main question is - can I get some type of signal amplifier to plug in-line:

antenna--->coaxial--->signal amplifier--->stb ????

Normally you situate the amplifier as close to the antenna as practical so as to get the maximum signal level into the amp WRT noise (hence mast head amps). If you put the amp at the receiver end you'll have a weaker signal to amplify so when your amp lifts the signal up to a reasonable level it also lifts up a higher ratio of noise. If a mast head amp is not appropriate its also possible to splice an amp into the antenna lead within the roof cavity, but once again as close to the antenna end as is practical.

Signal strength is one aspect of a received signal.
Most equipment like this, and digital receivers are no exception, have an 'operating window' within which they like to receive the signal. Not too weak, but neither too strong.

Signal quality is the key factor to reliable digital reception. When the received signal impairments are too great, the receiver circuitry struggles to recover the digital transmission. Signal impairments happen for many reasons, like multipath (echoes), fading, ground reflections etc. Some of these cause signal cancellations, changes and disruptions to the desirable 'clean' waveform of the transmission in the 7MHz bandwidth.

Simply boosting the received signal will do little to improved a signal that is badly impaired. I believe what it may help with on occasion is to lift the signal to a more acceptable level within the receiver's operating window. This may help it to better work with the poor signal quality that is there.

The importance of getting a good quality signal in the first place is key. And that is done through using the correct antenna, in the best location. It really needs the use of a digital field strength meter to measure not only signal strength (Digital Channel Power, DCP), but also Bit Error Rate (BER).


The other aspect that may get you out of trouble sometimes, and make the best of a poor situation, is the ability of the digital receiver to work with a poor quality signal. But that's been mentioned before.

geoffp,

There should be a service warranty on this installation. I would contact the installer direct on behalf of your in-laws and find out what work was done, what the rationale behind not replacing the coaxial cable was, and what the interference issue was from within the house.

Lately I have been doing re-works on installations done by others, and finding: antennas not in the optimum spot, wrong antenna used, antennas not mounted correctly, incorrect or no amplification being used, amongst other things.

In most cases, people have had me fix the problem, even though I point out they have a service warranty claim against the original work.

So, see if you can get the original installer back, or get a second opinion. Otherwise, you can post here, and learn incrementally over time, and perhaps get it right eventually.

Marc.

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