This will be a new thread to help other buyers along as this question gets asked constantly, so I hope others can benefit!

I have sold my RXV 663! Got a good offer, so I sold it and now I am looking for a new AV amp as a replacement to drive my ATI power amp and re-establish my HT system.

My requirements:

Must have pre-outs

I also wish to have post-processing such that a lossless 5.1 signal can be processed into 7.1
THX processing would have been nice, but I doubt it will fit my budget.

The smaller requirement is a good IPOD dock, but actually very few except Yamaha do a good dock and for decent money.

Does not have limited color range (see my RXV 663 thread)

Internal lossless decoding

Stay tuned!

Research so far:

All in SING$:

Denon 2309 - 1020 - made in Japan
Marantz SR 5003 - 680 / SR 6003 - 830
Onkyo SR 706 - < 1000
Yamaha 663 - 690 (unlikely to get back the same one though )

The hard bit actually is finding a good Ipod dock. The SR 6003 has a USB port but this does not function with the Ipod.
Note the Audessy EQ functions do not work with lossless signals on the Marantz AV amps, too little processing power.
The Yamaha has limited BTB and WTW video handling.
Marantz has a backlit remote control.
Onkyo is the only THX (select) equipped amp, and only it and the Denon have the new Dynamic EQ

Oh the Pioneer LX 50 which is being replaced is also an option at SING 999
But its close to the level of pain that I wish to avoid.
Never really been a Pioneer fan, but I will see, esp if it offers good Ipod functions

Good thread Pete,

I for one am watching it closely...

So far:

In terms of lossless signal processing, I can only be sure the Onkyo 706 and the Denon 2309 can do this.
There are overheating issues with the 706 reported in AVS, but it may not affect me since I am using this as a pre-amp.
The Denon appears to have the most comprehensive Ipod support, apart from the Yamaha. Will decide when I return and pass into Singapore from my travels.

A review of the Denon 2309:
http://www.homecinemachoice.com/node/9093

BOUGHT THE 2309!
From KEC, about SING 1k pre-tax


My search is over, I will give reasons as I review this product.

Specs:





Some useful threads:

AVS 1909 thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1050097


AVS 2309 thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....ight=denon+2309



Denon website:
http://www.denon.co.uk/site/unten.php?main...mp;Pid=387&

Initial impressions:

The remote and manual sucks big time!

6 position Audessy takes time.
You can apply PL IIx post-processing to lossless signals.
No OSD on HDMI.
2 X 12 000 mFarad caps.
Made in Japan

There is only 1 remote, not two.
Detachable IEC.

There is pass through for video 24 fps 1080p.

Most places sell this for about the same price which is roughly 1k before GST.

After setting it up thrice, the Audessy based Denon is way better than the old Yammy.

In case anyone is going to ask me about the audio performance, I have no comments:
- i do not use it in stereo, only HT
- I am not using the internal amps

But the decoding detail is awesome.
Also the gain on the output is higher and allows me to set my power amp to a lower input level.

There is unlimited white output, with no BTB or WTW issues.

The amp is warm (used as a pro) but not hot.

As a processor, it may be bested by the 2809 in terms of chips but it is no slouch with 2 32bit floating chip DSP. There are 3 seperate tranformers, and lots of other little stuff that help the HT experience.

I will elaborate more with a full review soon.


Initial listening impressions are good, with PL IIx and TruHD, DTS-MA or LPCM, there is real air and good surround.
Placement of detail is excellant, and there is balance of neutrality without emphasising any part of the sonic spectrum.
When you actually get through the poorly thought through menus, it has many options to tweak.

So why not -----

Onyko 706 -- great feature set, THX select thrown in, and a better remote which is learning.

BUT --- heat issues, and a throttled power output (even though I won't really be using it, I don't like that). The 2309 has more capacitance than the 806.

It has been mentioned that the component to HDMI conversion fails when the amp heats up.
Ipod dock does not support classic Ipod video out

Yamaha 863 --- twin sub output, good sound, excellant Ipod support, decent remote control.

But -- well I guess I don't want another yammy, and it cost more plus the inability to process lossless was the clincher.

Marantz 6003 -- my fav brand, remote fits my system, GUI menus, classy looks and 2 HDMI out

BUT -- again unable to process lossless signals was the loser. No Audessy for lossless signals.

Pioneer VXS LX 50 on sale for 999, also decodes everything

BUT only 2 HDMI, and not cheap. Expensive IPOD dock.

NAD, HK and other brands were not out yet.

The Denon interface is not intuitive, and requires a lot of patience.
Going through the menus with a remote where you need to open the hatch is annoying.
The Yamaha beats this hands down even though it was not too friendly either, and the Marantz wins on usability.

However when you sit back and listen to the HT demo, you feel a lot better.

Features
7-Channel Equal Power Amplifier: The Denon AVR-2309CI features a 7-channel equal power, discrete amplifier. Each channel is rated at 100 watts RMS. The amp can power a 7.1-channel surround system in the main room; or it can power a 5.1-channel system and the surround back channels can be reassigned to power Zone 2 speakers at the same time.

Digital Signal Processing (DSP): The Denon AVR-2309CI is equipped with a high-resolution 32-bit floating point Digital Signal Processor (DSP). All elements of the Surround Processor are optimized to the highest standards by the use of selected high performance and discrete components, particularly the A/D and D/A converters and the sophisticated DSP surround decoder.

24-Bit, 192 kHz D/A Converters: The AVR-2309CI uses Analog Devices 24-bit/192-kHz Digital-to-Analog converters for all channels. The 192kHz sampling and 24-bit word length capabilities of the DACs allow you to play high-resolution recordings and hear the increased clarity, detail and dynamic range of those recordings.

Audyssey: This receiver is equipped with an Auto Setup and Room Equalization function, to achieve the most ideal sound field for your room. The AVR-2309CI's Audyssey MultiEQ function is designed to optimize the sound quality at each listening position in the room. The included DM-A409 microphone is used to measure test tones at each listening position. This measured data is then analyzed using a program to improve acoustic characteristics in the listening area. For best results at least 6 positions should be measured, including a main position. The main position is given more weight in the calculations.

Audyssey Settings:

MultEQ: The Room EQ function offers the following adjustments:
Audyssey: optimizes the crossover point, output level, delay time, and equalization of all speakers based on speaker frequency response, speaker location, and room acoustics
Audyssey Byp. L/R: optimizes all speakers except front left and right
Audyssey Flat: optimize frequency response of all speakers to flat
Manual: adjusts the tonal quality for each speaker individually using the manual equalizer settings; adjust from -20 to +6 dB at 63 Hz, 125 Hz, 250 Hz, 500 Hz, 1 kHz, 2 khz, 4 kHz, 8 kHz, and 16 kHz
Off: turns equalizer off
Dynamic EQ: Audio engineers mix music and movie soundtracks at reference levels much louder than typical home listening levels. At lower volumes the human ear perceives sound differently; voices change, bass dissipates, and the surround effect becomes less enveloping. Dynamic EQ adjusts the frequency response curve based on volume to maintain consistent bass output, octave-to-octave balance, and surround impact, resulting in rich sound at any volume.
Dynamic Volume: Dynamic Volume addresses the issue of commercials that are too loud and movie soundtracks with vast differences between soft and loud passages; the results are more intelligible dialogue, loud passages maintain impact, and soft whispers are clearly heard. When the volume level changes, Dynamic EQ also adjusts the frequency response to maintain sound quality.
Custom Integration: The AVR-2309CI carries the "CI" stamp, which is Denon's certification to custom installers that the receiver has advanced connectivity and control features often required for custom home integration and theater applications using premium control systems. These features include a RS232C jack for use with whole house control systems, remote in/out IR command control, and a +12-volt trigger.

Video Up-Conversion Powered With DCDi By Faroudja: The AVR-2309CI is equipped with a flexible video switching system that converts video signals in an effort to only require one video connection from the receiver to your TV. The video switching system features a Directional Correlation De-interlacing (DCDi) special video processor developed by Faroudja that involves advanced algorithms to remove the jagged edges that appear when standard interlaced video is viewed on progressive scan displays. DCDi converts standard interlaced signals into progressive scan signals in order to eliminate the stair-casing effect that conventional up-converters can introduce to diagonal edges. Unlike most other conversion circuits, this receiver will convert analog signals from composite video, S-Video, and component video to HDMI up to 1080p.

Composite Video: can be converted to S-Video, component video, or HDMI
S-Video: can be converted to composite video, component video, or HDMI
Component Video: can be converted to composite video, S-Video, or HDMI (480i signals only when down converting/1080p input cannot be converted)
Note: Video signals input as HDMI must be output via HDMI.

Surround Modes: This receiver incorporates a wide variety of surround modes, including the new high resolution audio formats, to bring you maximum enjoyment from your audio and video software. The surround modes include:

Dolby Digital Plus: Dolby Digital Plus was developed as an extension to Dolby Digital. The audio coding technology supports 7.1 channel surround sound.

Dolby TrueHD: Dolby TrueHD is a lossless coding technology that supports up to 8 channels of multi-channel surround sound for the next generation optical discs. The reproduced sound is true to the original source bit-for-bit.

DTS-HD High Resolution: DTS-HD High Resolution Audio is an improved version of the conventional DTS, DTS-ES and DTS 96/24 signal formats that is compatible with sampling frequencies of 48 or 96 kHz and up to 7.1-channels of discrete digital sound. High data bit rate performance provides high quality sound.

DTS-HD Master Audio: DTS-HD Master Audio is a lossless audio format compatible with up to 96 kHz and up to 7.1-channels. The lossless audio coding technology faithfully reproduces the sound of the studio master.

Dolby Digital: Dolby Digital is a 5.1 multi-channel digital surround format.

Dolby Digital EX: Dolby Digital EX is a 6.1 multi-channel digital surround format.

DTS Digital Surround: DTS Digital Surround is a 5.1 multi-channel digital surround sound format used for both commercial/theatrical and consumer grade applications.

DTS-ES Extended Surround: DTS-ES features two 6.1 multi-channel formats.

DTS-ES Discrete 6.1: DTS-ES Discrete 6.1-channel is a 6.1-channel discrete digital audio format adding a surround back channel to the DTS digital surround sound.

DTS-ES Matrix 6.1: DTS-ES Matrix 6.1-channel is a discrete 5.1 channel digital audio format inserting a surround back channel to the DTS surround sound through matrix encoding.

DTS 96/24: DTS 96/24 is a digital audio format enabling high sound quality playback in 5.1-channels with a sampling frequency of 96 kHz and 24 bit quantization of DVD-video.
Dolby Pro Logic II: Dolby Pro Logic II technology processes any high quality stereo (two-channel) movie and music audio into five playback channels of full-bandwidth surround sound. A matrix surround decoding technology, Dolby Pro Logic II detects the directional cues that occur naturally in stereo content and uses these elements to create a five-channel surround sound playback experience. You can choose from Cinema, Music, or Game formats. You can also choose Dolby Pro Logic (the earlier 4-channel mode).
Dolby Pro Logic IIx: Pro Logic IIx expands any existing stereo- or 5.1-channel audio for a 6.1- or 7.1- channel playback, creating a seamless, natural surround soundfield that immerses you in the entertainment experience. You can choose from the following Dolby Pro Logic IIx formats - Cinema, Music, or Game.
DTS Neo:6 Surround: DTS Neo:6 is a matrix decoding technology for achieving 6.1-channel surround playback with 2-channel sources. You can choose from two DTS Neo: 6 Surround formats - Neo: 6 Cinema and Neo: 6 Music.
Combined Surround Modes: The receiver features several combined modes using existing Dolby and DTS surround modes:
Dolby TrueHD + Dolby Digital EX
Dolby TrueHD + Dolby Pro Logic IIx Cinema
Dolby TrueHD + Dolby Pro Logic IIx Music
DTS-HD + Neo:6
DTS-HD + Dolby Pro Logic IIx Cinema
DTS-HD + Dolby Pro Logic IIx Music
Dolby Digital + Dolby Pro Logic IIx Cinema
Dolby Digital + Dolby Pro Logic IIx Music
DTS + Neo:6
DTS + Dolby Pro Logic IIx Cinema
DTS + Dolby Pro Logic IIx Music
Neural Surround: Neural Surround has been adopted by XM Satellite Radio for digital radio broadcasts of XM HD Surround recordings and live events in surround sound. Neural Surround employs psychoacoustic frequency domain processing which allows delivery of a more detailed sound stage with superior channel separation and localization of audio elements.
Denon Original Surround (DSP) Modes:
Rock Arena: this mode is for enjoying the atmosphere of a live concert in an arena
Jazz Club: this mode is for enjoying the atmosphere of a live concert in a jazz club
Mono Movie: this mode is for playing monaural movie sources with surround sound
Video Game: this mode is suited for achieving surround sound with video games
Matrix: this mode lets you add a sense of expansion to stereo music sources
Virtual: this mode is for enjoying surround effects using only the front speakers or headphones
5CH/7CH Stereo: this mode is for enjoying stereo sound from all speakers
Surround Parameters: You can adjust the following surround mode parameters:

CINEMA EQ (Cinema Equalizer): The Cinema EQ function gently decreases the level of the extreme high frequencies, compensating for overly-bright sounding motion picture soundtracks. Select this function if the sound from the front speakers is too bright. This function only works in the Dolby Pro Logic (including PL II and PL IIx) and DTS Neo:6 modes.
Dynamic Range Compression: Motion picture soundtracks have tremendous dynamic range (the contrast between very soft and very loud sounds). For listening late at night, or whenever the maximum sound level is lower than usual, the Dynamic Range Compression allows you to hear all of the sounds in the soundtrack with reduced dynamic range. DRC works when playing program sources recorded in Dolby Digital, DTS, of Dolby TrueHD.
LFE: This setting adjusts the low-frequency effects level (LFE). You can adjust the LFE from -10 to 0 dB.
Center Width: This function assigns the center channel signal to the front left and right channels for wider sound; select from 0 to 7. This function only works in the Dolby Pro Logic II and PL IIx modes.
Center Image: This function assigns a center channel signal to the front left and right channels for wider sound; adjust from 0.0 to 1.0. This function only works in the DTS Neo:6 mode.
Panorama: This feature assigns front left and right signals to surround channels for wider sound, you can turn this feature On or Off. This function only works in the Dolby Pro Logic II and PL IIx modes.
Dimension: This setting shifts the sound image to the front or rear to adjust playback balance; select from 0 to 6. This function only works in the Dolby Pro Logic II and PL IIx modes.
Delay Time: This feature adjusts the delay time to control the sound stage size. In this menu the delay time is only adjusted for the Matrix mode.
Effect Level: This function adjusts the effect signal level from 1 to 15 when using the Denon Original Surround Modes.
Ro0m Size: This feature allows you to set the size of your acoustic environment when using the Denon Original Surround Modes; select Small, Medium small, Medium, Medium large, or Large.
AFDM: Auto Flag Detect Mode auto-selects the surround mode by the connected source's content.
SB CH Out: This setting selects the playback mode for the surround back channels; there are separate settings for multi-channel and 2-channel sources.
PCM Input: In addition to accepting bitstream audio, which is then decoded by the AVR-2309CI, the HDMI inputs will accept 2-channel or multi-channel linear PCM signals, up to 8 channels, with a bit rate of 32-192 kHz, and with a word length of 16, 20, or 24 bits. Transferring DVD-Audio signals by HDMI is also supported.

Pure Direct: For the most accurate music reproduction all the display (OSD and front panel), surround, and tone circuits can be turned off.

Tone Settings: You can independently adjust the system's overall Bass and Treble settings from -6 to +6 dB.

Restorer: This function restores compressed audio signals to pre-compression form, correcting the sense of bass and treble volume to obtain a richer sounding playback; select 64, 96, or HQ based on the compression setting of the source material.

Night Mode: This mode is optimized for late night listening. You can select the degree of compression; Low, Middle, High, or Off. Night Mode is not available when Dynamic EQ or Dynamic Volume is turned on.

Audio Delay: If needed, the audio signal can be delayed to match the video signal; adjust from 0-200ms.

Quick Select: The front panel and main remote (RC-1099) both have three Quick Select buttons. Each button can be programmed with a specific input source, surround mode, volume, and MultEQ, Dynamic EQ, and Dynamic volume settings for easy recall.

Personal Memory Plus: For each input, the receiver automatically memorizes the settings for input mode, surround mode, HDMI output mode, MultEQ, Dynamic EQ, Dynamic Volume, audio delay, etc. When the input source is switched, the settings last used for that source are automatically recalled. The surround parameters, tone control settings, and playback levels for the different output channels are memorized for each surround mode.

Subwoofer Control: You can set the crossover frequency of the subwoofer to 40Hz, 60Hz, 80Hz, 90Hz, 100Hz, 110Hz, 120Hz, 150Hz, 200Hz or 250Hz. The subwoofer output is set to LFE (plays the LFE channel plus any information below the crossover point from any channel set to small) or LFE+Main (plays the LFE channel plus any information below the crossover point from all channels).

Dual Zone/Dual Source Operation: Denon's Dual-Zone/Dual-Source function lets you select a different source for listening in a different location of your home. The Zone 2 audio output has independent source selection and can be output as a line-level or speaker-level signal, depending on the amplifier assign setting. A second remote control is included for use in Zone 2.

Amplifier Assign: There are seven amplifier channels built into the receiver. These channels are typically used for 7.1 channel surround in the main room, but the amplifier assign function gives you the option of configuring the system differently if you prefer (limiting the main room to 5.1-channel operation):

Bi-Amp Connections: Some loudspeakers are equipped with two sets of input terminals for bi-amplification. The receiver's Power Amp Assign mode allows you to power two bi-amp capable speakers with two amplifier channels each. The bi-amp channels can be assigned to either the front A or front B speakers.
Dual Zone/Dual Source Operation: Two amplifier channels can be assigned to power the Zone 2 speakers.
iPod Compatibility: Using an optional ASD-11R iPod dock, or an ASD-3N or ASD-3W iPod/Network adapter dock, you can integrate your iPod with the AVR-2309CI. Song titles appear on the receiver's display panel and the iPod can be controlled using the buttons on the main unit and the remote control.

Note: The ASD-11R is compatible with 3rd generation and later iPods with a dock connecter.

XM Ready: With the optional XM Mini Tuner and Mini Tuner Home Dock (package item number 700XMTUNPK), you can enjoy the variety and sound quality of XM Satellite radio. XM offers over 150 channels of music, news, sports, and talk radio and even has weather and traffic information in several major markets. The channel number, channel name, artist name, and song title are listed on the AVR-2309CI's display and on a connected TV monitor. XM stations are stored as presets and recalled in the same way AM and FM stations are. A subscription to XM Satellite Radio is required.

Sirius Satellite Radio Ready: The AVR-2309CI can be connected to the optional SiriusConnect home tuner kit (item number 607SCH1-sold separately), allowing you to receive Sirius Satellite Radio through the receiver. The display shows channel name, number, category, artist, or song title. Sirius channels are stored as presets and recalled in the same way AM and FM stations are. A subscription to Sirius Satellite Radio is required.

Volume Setting: You can set a maximum volume level of 0, -10, or -20 dB to limit the receiver's total volume output. You can also specify a turn-on volume, from -70 to +18dB or Last (whatever the volume setting when the receiver was turned off).

Muting Level Adjustment: You can set the amount of attenuation for the audio muting circuit; 40dB or 20dB below current volume, or full mute (sound turned off entirely).

Source Delete: You can delete inputs you are not using from the receiver's display and on-screen menu to make accessing your connected sources quicker and easier.

Back-Up Memory: The unit is equipped with a back-up memory that provides approximately one week of memory storage when the main unit's power switch is off and the power cord is disconnected.

On-Screen Display (OSD): The OSD menu can be displayed on your television for easy system setup. The OSD menu is sent through all monitor outputs (composite video, S-video, component video, and HDMI). A screen saver engages if a static menu is left on screen for more that 3 minutes.

Dimmer: The receiver features 4 display brightness settings - Bright, Dim, Dark and Off.

Remote Controls
Main Remote Control (RC-1099): The AVR-2309CI comes with a main remote control that can operate the receiver as well as other remote control capable Denon components. It is pre-programmed with control signals for other brand products; including DVD players, Blu-ray Disc players, VCRs, TVs, cable boxes, satellite receivers, and CD players.

Sub/Zone 2 Remote Control (RC-1107): The receiver's sub remote is designed to control the Zone 2 functions. You can use it from the other room with an optional IR repeater kit.

Input and Output Notes
Rear Panel Connections:

HDMI: This unit has 4 HDMI inputs and 1 HDMI monitor output, version 1.3a. The HDMI inputs are assignable to different input sources. The HDMI jacks support HDCP copyright protection and are compatible with 30 and 36 bit Deep Color and xvYCC color space technology (currently no pre-recorded software supports Deep Color or xvYCC).
Component Video: The receiver features 3 component video inputs and 1 component video monitor output. The component video inputs are assignable to different sources. (Note: If a 1080p signal is input via component video, it is neither converted nor scaled; it is only output as 1080p component video)
Assignable Digital Inputs: The AVR-2309CI features 3 optical digital (Toslink) inputs and 2 coaxial digital inputs. Each input can be assigned to any of the different input sources except Phono and Tuner. Optical digital input 2 also has a corresponding optical digital output for use with a CD, MD, or other digital recording device.
7.1 Multi-Channel Input: The AVR-2309CI is equipped with an analog 7.1-channel RCA input to accommodate present and future multi-channel formats.
Speaker Terminals: All of the receiver's speaker terminals are binding posts. They are not 5-way binding posts because a plastic collar prevents their use with spade lugs and they are positioned too far apart to be used with dual banana plugs.
XM: This proprietary terminal allows you to connect and optional XM Mini Tuner and Mini Tuner Home Dock.
Sirius: This proprietary terminal allows you to connect an optional SiriusConnect home tuner kit.
iPod Connection Terminal: You can connect and play an iPod that has Apple's Dock connector using the optional Denon ASD-11R iPod dock (item number 033ASD11RK) or iPod network dock (item numbers 033ASD3N and 033ASD3W).
RS-232C Port: The AVR-2309CI includes an RS-232C port for connection to external whole-house control systems, from companies such as AMX, Crestron, and others, and provides a software/firmware upgrade pathway.
Room-to-Room Remote Jacks: The receiver has a mini-jack input for use with an optional Denon RC-616, 617, or 618 IR re-transmitter. The adjacent room-to-room output is for future use.
12V Trigger Output: The AVR-2309CI has a mini-jack output to send a 12-Volt DC turn-on signal to another component that accepts a 12V trigger, such as a power amplifier.
Front Panel Connections:

Headphone Jack: standard 1/4" stereo headphone jack; the speakers in the main zone are muted when headphones are plugged in
A/V Inputs: S-video, Composite-video, a pair of stereo RCAs, and an optical digital input
Setup Mic: 3.5mm input for connection of supplied setup microphone

Hi Peter,

I thought this could decode the lossless HD audio codecs. Or are you just saying it cannot apply Audessy for lossless signals?

Im interested in the new 5003 model because its suppossed to decode the hd audio unlike the 5002.

Yep. Like the old 7002 and 8002 it would seem. Can decode but can't apply Audyssey. The manual is a little vague still

Page 40 of http://us.marantz.com/SR5003_U_EN.pdf


Acoustic modes apparently being Audyssey. Seems pretty lame they still aren't doing this though.

From AVS:



http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....44#post15051744

Is Audyssey that big a deal? I dont know much about it except what I read briefly on the 5003 blurb. Never heard of it until just recently.

Note the US version has only 1 sub pre-out and an extra remote, and the Singapore / OZ version has full pre-outs and a single remote.

FAQs on the Denon AVR 1909 / 2309

Adapted from a post to AVS with changes to suit our model and information for the 2309 only.

pete,
what is your impression of sound quality using a budget amp (via pre out) v's a more expensive amp also using pre outs?

I guess this would be more relevant if you had a 3808/ 4308 to compare against to see what, if anything, you are losing in sound quality by using a cheaper receiver.

The reason is that if you are a fan of say Marantz, or Yamaha, or Denon etc, there is no need to spend premium dollars on the top models while the lesser models give the same sound quality (perhaps without some bells and whistles) if you have a decent power amp to provide the grunt.

TB

I have not used a higher end model.
But note that the higher end ones have a higher Audyssey EQ as well and better floating DSP 32 bit chips. All these play a role in HT sound. This is why I got the new AV amp, as Denon's DSP chips are known to be good, whereas the Yam 663 is a more basic model.

Plus the issues with BTB and WTW were the main deterent.

Will post a review on the Denon in a seperate column as I cannot change the heading.

I've been following your journey with great interest pete.

Whilst my needs aren't as advanced as yours I've been doing my research nevertheless. As this is a vs thread I thought I'd post some observations.

Using only post dates as a guide I noticed you had the Yamaha RX-V633 from May to Nov yet only kept the Denon 2309 for +/- a week. Is it fair to say that you liked the Yamaha more or was it just circumstance that lead to the quick turn around of the Devon?

Thanks for your thoughts

The Yamaha was a good start into the world of HDMI, auto-setup etc...
When the chance came to sell, I decided to do so with little loss.
Then after using a week of the Denon AVR 2309, the remote was awful so I sold it off and got myself the 2809.

Review of the Denon 2809 as a processor:


I have just bought this, and I am using it as a processor for my HT.

I had sold off my Yamaha 663 as I did not like the BTB/ WTW limitations, the lack of processing for lossless bitstream signals and that mine was a 110v USA model.

I then bought a 2309 which I sold in a week as the remote was truly aweful, so here I am with the 2809!

Initial impressions:
Great remote, lots of codes.
30 000 mFarads of capacitance instead of 24 000 on the 2309.
The flap is actually a hindrance and the buttons on the front are less friendly than the 2309.
The Quick Select buttons are great.
Setting up is highly dependant on the position of the mike, and you must turn down the subwoofer levels, less than 12 o'clock
Use as many positions as possible - see the Auddysey or the AVS 2809 forum for more info.

Had a chance to try some old familar hits with the 2809 last night.

IMO Audyssey is a real boon, and will help, with the caveats that you still need good speaker placement and room treatment. A DVD version of Band Of Brothers came alive and there was so much detail coming from all the channels. Placement of effects was stable and there was a good imagery created which was convincing and places you in the action.

Dynamic EQ works well esp since I really wish to keep all my hearing intact. The subwoofers still get a good workout, and yet dialogue is not overwhelmed.

Putting Indy 4 into my PS 3 was a totally higher level of HT enjoyment. First the THX trailer was awesome, with both subs firing, the room was physically elevated off the floor and yet the subtle bits of sound effects were still distinct and even in a busy action scene, the effects were still clear, clean and easy to follow.

Of course, having good speakers and a powerful power amp helps. (I am not using the internal amps and I am using this as a HT processor). Adding DPL IIx adds space and more dimension to the soundscape, but do not overpower the front channels with too much SPLs from the rear channels.

All in all, a worthy upgrade to the Yam 663.

The CPU of the 2809 seems faster too and setup time was less. Trying out my new Indy 4 BR disc and effects transit well, dialogue locks onto the screen well and effects are quite distinct. Of course this is also a well recorded disc.

More testing:

The remote is worth the upgrade alone!
It recognises my HD DVD player, my Pioneer, my Panny DVR and my Marantz CD player!
This remote ranks highly amongst the supplied remotes. It is important to have hard buttons for commonly used functions, and they are differentiated by size and shape. I once wrote a letter in Hi Fi Choice blasting the remotes from Linn, Audiolab and the old NAD ones because of this, glad NAD has changed theirs.
The winning feature of the Denon series is the HDMI power on control, where now I can switch off my amp and still get HDMI pass through to the TV so with the last set input, you can go direct to the TV, which works well for days when you do not want to switch on the amp or just keep it simple for elder folks.

In HT, there is a perceptible difference with the 2309 and there is a better implementation of the Auddyssey, and the difference in the enveloping experience is obvious. It is also much better than the Yam 663 in this respect, in generating the ambience required. The transition from the front to back speakers and back is done seamlessly and all this while dialogue is well defined. All this of course is still dependant on a good speaker setup and placement.

The other nice thing is individual channel crossover frequency adjustments. There is plenty of control of the various parameters to get a good fit to your speakers and room.


Dynamic EQ works well, and allows you to play movies at a lower volume without losing the bass effects. But it is more integrated and effective than a simple loudness button.
I have not tried the video processing as I can switch it off and allow pass through of the signals from the PS 3 and XE1 which IMO do a better job. I have also not used this amp in stereo.

This amp is a worthy addition to the mid-budget level amps and for those looking to get a simple yet sophisticated proccesor for their HT setup and are upgrading from older non-HDMI amps, this amp deserves a look.

BTW if anyone is headed to Singapore, they are offering the Ipod docks free for selected models and free DVD players for others.

Hi Pete

I am also in Singapore and looking to upgrade but need to sell my current setup. Where did you manage to sell your equipment at?

Regards
Daniel

Check your local forums in SG then, eg echoloft, xtremeplace.com etc
Cheers

Just managed to get a Wi Fi Ipod dock free, which you get from your dealer, with my Denon 2809
The free gift for the 2309 is a DVD player. Denon 1940

I got the ASD 3W to use with my Ipod and the Denon AVR 2809.
Downloading movies off Itunes USA was a simple job and even though the dock offers only s-video. With the Denon set to upscale to 1080i to my Pioneer, the picture quality was fine.
It took 3 hours to download a movie of about 2G in size, but I have no complaints about the sound or picture. I just tried it in stereo as the dock only docks L and R.

The remote that comes with the ASD 3W is simple yet easy to use.

The Denon IPOD docking station compatibility chart indicates that a firmware update is expected here shortly for the 2309 and higher models to solve video display issues with the Denon Ipod docking stations. It would be downloaded to a PC and then installed to the 2809 via a serial DB9/USB to serial DB9 cable.

See the compatibility chart:
http://www.usa.denon.com/Denon_Docks_iPod_Compatibility.pdf

Hi All,

I'm looking seriously @ the SR6003 but after reading this tread am a bit concerned to how much a problem not having Audyssy available for the Lossless BD format's is? Surely if the sound vioa HDMI is lossless then the sound is going to be very good anyway?

Does this also mean that if you manually adjust speaker levels, this will also be "ignored" when listening to the lossless formats over HDMI?

Everything else stacks up with this amp, although I'm not familair with i-Chips (how does this rank with AnchorBay, Farujdia etc?). I need something with x2 HDMI out for my Plasma / PJ setup & everything else is way over $2K.

Cheers Matt

Only the Audyssey cannot be used for the HD codecs, you can set the avr up with manual settings and they are retained for the lossless formats.

i - chips have been subjectively noted to be inferior to the ABT. You do not need Auddyssey, life goes on without it. I found my setup was better with it, your own mileage may vary.

So far Denon Ipod docks have proven to be the best. They do Chinese / Japanese fonts, display the artwork and also allow video for the latest Ipods which many of the rest do not.

Their remotes are the most comprehensive and the dock fits snugly and you can use it with a silicon skin around the Ipod too.

None of them are really cheap, Yamaha still has the best deal, but the Denons are worth the extra bit, esp if you can afford the ASD 3N or W.

Denon AVR 2809 Home theatre processor review



Watching Band of Brothers





Equipment list:



Its mostly in my signature, but essentially I am using my Denon AVR 2809 as a processor partnered with my Marantz SR 12 used as a power amp (110w per channel X 7 THX Ultra II reference series amp), and two subwoofers used together with my Monitor Audio GS series speakers. The speakers and subwoofers have been mentioned in other threads. I used the PS 3 and the Toshiba XE 1 as Hi Def players for this review.



Using a latest generation AV Amp with the latest and fastest twin 32 bit DSP and all the processing power with a better amp make sense for me. The ‘brain’ can process all the HT information, spread it into 7.1 channels and blend it into a symphony of cinema excellence without being hampered by a weaker power section, leaving this to another amp with 3 times the power (real world), capacitance and current drive.



I have seen BOB on VCD, DVD and now I am the proud owner of the Blu Ray edition and this is a good opportunity to use it as a Reference demonstration material for this review. BOB has been acknowledged widely as a superb piece of cinematic production, not only in its story, the sound construction and the whole HT experience.



Most of the review uses scenes from the 2^nd episode, which ranks as the best for me of the whole series. I have fired everything from M16s to mortars to 108 recoilless rifles, thrown grenades and leapt from choppers, so I know what the real McCoy sounds and feels like.





Imagery:



We are about to assault the guns at Brecourt Manor.

Imagine you closed your eyes and listened, can you pin point the position of the rifles firing, outside the confines of the horizontal plane where the speakers are aligned and at a definite point in space which is somewhere between the centre and the right / left speakers but higher up corresponding to where the actual shot should be fired from. Then trace the flight of the bullets from the front surround field right through the rear surrounds and back without any gaps.



Then heard and felt the impact of the 108mm German guns as they constantly fired in the background. A distinct percussion, yet with the reverberations going round the surrounds, and yet you are able to keep up with the dialogue, and the small sounds of empty cartridges falling about.



Then imagine you are Troy as twice he gets blown up by grenades. The sound of dirt falling around you mixed with the splinters of wood. Then the fine buzz of flies in the June air around the corpse of Hall lying on the trench floor after he was blown up, with the sound of the canons still firing around you as you pretend to be Lt. Winters brushing away the dirt from his young dead face.



BOB offers so much more detail from the BR version, it is well worth the upgrade from the DVD. Its not about being louder, it’s the detail and surround field generated. If you have a good HT system, there will definitely be a noticeable difference. A good processor is required to crunch all the digital data and digest that and come up with that magical surround ambience. All the channels are kept busy and yet the individual detail from all the speakers can be followed with little difficulty.



Do try these scenes yourselves and see if you can get the same detail retrieval, but more importantly does the surround experience pull you into the movie or does it feel like several distinct bits, like you know there is a subwoofer in your HT room, a voice emanating from a central voice box, and some ambient noises coming from behind you.



Now I have tried this with lesser setups, and you know you are not in the battlefield. Surround effects are easily isolated and seem to emerge from boxes which do not sound natural. Bass is muffled and slow, or the centre speaker is not natural and produces a boxy or feeble voice which makes Winters’ manly voice sound like a child.



The Brains behind the power:



As I mentioned the 2809 employs the same chipset as the higher end 4308 and 3808, and Denon pretty much endows their amp with the best HT DSPs around. Add some more Burr Brown magic and experience at making HT amps from a long line of AV equipment. Perhaps the icing or the pinnacle of perfection comes from the new Audyssey XT which gives the balance of dynamics at lower volumes and room correction technology which goes a long way to making up for shortfalls in the home theatre environment.



Some of us have the luxury of a dedicated HT room. Of this few try and make it less echoic. Very few people have a really well treated room and most make do with a corner of the living room or a small study. There is I stress, no substitute for a well designed HT room which has been properly treated, SPL meter measured and calibrated. But this remains rocket science for most, and the new auto-eq and setup functions available is a real boon. I have tried at least 10 AV amps, and not all are improvements on the top models I had. But I will stand on record as saying, that this Denon 2809 has the best surround field and HT experience I have had so far. And I happily relish each moment I spend in my HT room.



Now I owned the 2309 for a week and there is a difference in the two. The HT processor is less capable in the 2309, apart from the awful remote control. But you pay more for the 2809. and I do not need the power from the 3808 nor the extra features.



Denon user interfaces are not great, their manuals are awful but once you have sat down to a well tweaked setup, it is HT heaven.







BOB is one of the finest HT productions so far, and IMO every HT fan should have a copy, and try it out to test their HT system. The sound engineers did a fine job, and you will enjoy it even more if you use a good quality HT system.

Just adding the Audyssey how to:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....95#post14456895

Mmmm first post, yay!

Just got a question for petetherock.

I'm looking at getting a reasonably priced AVR which I'll probably suplement later with a power-amp. My question is, besides the issues with the remote, how did you find the 2309 and would it have suited your purposes?

Thanks,
Nick

Welcome to DTV mate

You can read what I wrote above, it is ok, but since I wish to keep this amp for some time and I am willing to pay the extra money. I choose the 2809. The remote was a real loser.

Another quick question for petetherock.

Why did you choose an AVR as a pre/pro rather then a dedicated pre/pro?

Thanks,
Nick

It's a very common route taken by people with power amplifiers. A/V Receivers these days are so well-equipped and generally well-priced and they make dedicated Surround Processors/Pre-Amplifiers appear poor value-for-money, but realistically-speaking, a dedicated Surround Processor/Pre-Amplifier is ideal.

It is simple, as dantan said...

What is the price of a comparable pre?

It may be an Anthem, a NAD, Marantz 8003 etc etc
But they cost more and offer not a lot more for HT. For music, my SR 12 is still the king, so I get a win win situation.

These comercial brands do things in volume, so they can charge less for more features / functions

Review of the 2809 / 989

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/receivers...v-receiver.html





http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/assets/im...92009181042.jpg