Came across this on AVS and thought I'd post it here as a heads up

link

I notice one common feature here....... Pana BD30!

I wonder if these problems are pre or post the most recent firmware or independent of it?

Given I was looking a pairing this player with my Onkyo 705 I would be interested in finding out........

Hi
I just re-read your Post and noticed it mentioned in the opening paragraph,when they first put DTS on CD's similar stories of blown Amps and speakers emerged ,the problem is trying to separate the facts from fiction and urban-myths.

interesting,

though never had a prob bitsreaming from either the tosh xe1 or pio lx70a to denon 4308

When I first saw the title at AVS I thought it was going to be similar to Telarc's 1812 Overture warning

I know speaker popping has always been an issue with Onkyos / Integras. Mine have been known to "pop" from time to time but not from DTS HD MA bitstreaming.

Is anyone else having trouble with those links?

Interesting and Scary

I'm bitstreaming from a Samsung 1400 to a Yammie 3800 without issue so far.

edit: Although I havn't watched those movies. scared now...dts-MA is my preferred format as a rule

Fixed

cheers

So amps do not have speaker protection circuits in them for this very same reason!

cheers laurie

How many BD players are there on the market now that are able to bitstream?

cheers

Yep.

Ta.

IIRC they normally only protect the amp against overdriving and overheating, so depending on what this 'pop' signal is it probably will get past the protection circuitry.

cheers

If these are the masters, then more than likely the encode itself has not been calibrated to 0db for each particular encode.
Many post production houses (ours included) master soundtracks to exceed 0db (within the master, not the final).
In digital terms this clips the sound during mastering causing popping/noise (for one example).. others cause excessive boosting of the LFE, as in the signal exceeds or fluctuates through the standard 120hz (Dolby) and 112 (DTS) filters.

But the saving grace here is the fact the the final encode is actually dropping the global gain and using DR settings to bring this mix into tightly packed compressed streams.
We KNOW thevolume and freq levels will drop once we encode, so we compensate.

As these particular encoded freq's are not compressed "per se" then these mastering anomolies are also included in the final lossless encode as DR compression is usually not used with these codecs.

If it IS used (as in DDplus and DD5.1, or EX,) then we compensate that drop in gain by boosting the gain within of the master.
If we know its going to drop by -6bd after its encoded, then we ADD +6db before its encoded
Once its encoded, its then a clean flat 0db
One offsets the other see

It seems to me that theyre encoding lossless straight from a master without checking their mastered levels for each codec.
More than likely the masters are calibrated for DR Compressed formats (DTS or DD5.1)

Some amps wont allow thresholds above 0db simply because they run their own filters, but those amps that dont have these filters, will more than likely experience this glitch/anomoly/spike in freq or gain.

I could be wrong, but from the sound of the problem and from what we've been told about it in regard to how to manage the encoded format, it seems to be the case.

What Padre says is quite plausible imo . Onkyo in particular have a history of white noise problems with dts lossy until they installed a mute circuit to give the avr a chance to lock on to the bitstream. Ive no doubt the mastering of some discs from particular studios [anecdotally] is not done with the care of others .

i got a bd30 and a yammy 1800 and have not had any problems yet but i haven't seen those 4 movies either

That my friend, is what is called the human element

I posted about this issue when I purchased the XE-1 and bought Rambo-First blood on HD-DVD. My first DTS-HD MA disc and I had this problem (just after the guy asked for the bazooca to take out Rambo in the cave) and yes it scared the crap out of me. I thought my Krell amp had blown an amp or something. It's extremely load especially if your watching a movie at your normal lisytening level. Sounds like a fire cracker or a voltage spike going through every speaker. I took the movie back to JB got a replacement and it was still there so got a refund. Running an Oynko SR-805 as pre-pro via HDMI.

Chronos SE 13188kbps DTS 1536 kbps 1920x1072 1080p streamed on the PopcornHour but not to the speakers :-)

Pana BD30
Samsung 1400
Pio lx70 (?)

Found a report of someone having dropouts with TrueHD while bitstreaming. Sounds like a similar problem as the DTS-HDMA except that when there is a break in the TrueHD signal there seems to be a dropout and not a spike.

Link

Within the thread there are numerous reports of the same issue with these combinations:

Player--------------------->Receiver

BD-30 --------------------> Yamaha RX-V3800
Samsung BDP1400 -----> Onkyo 875
BD-30--------------------> Onkyo PR885
BD-30--------------------> Onkyo 605
BD-30--------------------> Onkyo 805
BD-30--------------------> Denon 3808


Those without problems:

BD-30-------------------> Denon 3808
Samsung 1400---------> Onkyo 805

cheers

Link
This doesn't explain why not all Yamaha and Onkyo users are having issues

Another thing is there are reports of this "pop" affecting:
Pioneer 91txh
Denon 3800 bitstreamed to Integra 9.8

cheers

Thanks, also found a complete list


cheers

So it's not the players but the amps?

My XE-1 popped when running HDMI into my Hitachi plasma, yet it only happened on SD content and on firmware 2.7 or higher!

Anyone know where to get a firmware update for the Yammie 3800 - the link above is to the bike store. And on the german or aussie pages I can only find manuals!

off topic but i didnt want to start a new thread just 4 this.....ta....when i turn off my guitar amp all my av speakers all pop.....is there a cheap way of stopping this ?

i'd like to know as well but for the 1800

Mater and commander has a distinct pop at around the 14 and a half minute mark, when russels talking to the doctor on the stairs. Happens everytime I play it.

I have a Samsung BD-P1400 hooked to my Onkyo 605 by HDMI cable.

Anyone else had this?

Jayson

I think I will try a Yamaha service centre tomorrow. If they are unaware then will send email to Yamaha Customer support here in Australia. If there is new firwware then they should know about it.

Bryan

Thanks Bryan...please keep us in the loop on what you discover.

As i'm sure most everyone with a Yamaha will be very interested.

I've emailed Customer service in the EU (where people on AVS say there is a fix, but I havn't heard anything back - they probably went "your not from the EU" and hit delete!

There is, get in touch with guitar factory in Parramatta

ta

Anyone know if Species region B is "safe" from the bitstream bomb? I have friends comming to watch it tomorrow..and i'm nervous for my speakers...but i wanna watch it lossless cos they are non-believers of HD and need to be shown the quality!! In the usa its PCM no no reports i've found...but has anyone tried it?

These codecs weren't designed for bitstreaming. They were designed for in-player decoding and mixing.

wouldn't the defeat the purpose of the new generation of high definition audio receivers?

Yes...............and that was the point

A good Audio Receiver does more than decode a codec. Quite a bit more.

I get a very loud pop on Eagles Live Farewell Melb HD DVD, on track 5, on my XE1 - Yamaha 3800.

I had the disc replaced by Amazon but the second one does the same thing in exactly the same place.

Isn't that the very disc the supersonic volume level in your pic was taken off? lucky lass

Yes it is, thankfully it wasn't at supersonic levels when that happened.

It only gets to that level for Hotel California.

interesting, the DTS website has had bitstreaming defined as a way of enjoying dts-hd/hr/ma, using a bitstream capable player and an avr/pre-pro with suitable decoding, as far as far back as I can remember.



watched eagles a few times with the xe1 and denon 4308 not something ever experienced. wonder whats goign on here. obviosuly not a dodgy disc but wonder down to mastering/recording or a player/avr/pre-pro issue. hope they get to the bottom of it. any other comments you've seen kazz in relation to this disc ?

My understanding from the AVS thread is that Denon AVRs are not affected. Its primiarly a problem with Yamaha and Okyno/Intergra - apparently they source components from a different place than Denon.

DTS are one of the worst for spreading misinformation............they had that on their site before they even finalized their encoding method..................try and find some whitpapers on their site that explain their coding system.

Not to mention all their hot air about Dolby's Dialog normalization....................yet their new codecs now support this feature........slipped that one under the carpet didn't they, thought we wouldn't notice eh



As mentioned before, also affected:
Pioneer 91txh
Denon 3808

cheers

not sure what mis-information from DTS your talking about macca. I have found bitstreaming of DTS/HD/HR/MA faultless in implemetation and believe the info on their website I'm refering too in the means to enjoy the format is still unchanged on the dts website. I have not seen any misinformation in what there is on their website inregards bitstreaming and the various means to enjoy dts-hd ma.

I really have not had one issue with bitstreaming. And have been using players for both formats for bitstreaming as soon as they were avaialble. Been quite a while now and countless discs on either format. Think I would have come across some issue by now.



could be the case, as mentioned not something found with the denon 4308 which has been faultless. if I hear a pop or anything else you can be sure I'll be the first here screaming about it !

.

In some ways Al ; its good that dts hdma is decoded in the avr [not pcm mixing of course] because of the extra processing power required to decode the more complicated extension packets . One reason between the prices of the 2 denons imo I can see the pana bd50 costing $$$


Its interesting that onkyo and yamaha use the TI aureous decoder and the denon I believe silicon image ? Dont know about the pio anomaly Macca lists . Ide certainly prefer a cirrus or silicon image solution ; experience counts

Ok,

Called Yamaha Technical Support and the guy first said- What is DTS HD MA? Are u sure it is a format? . I said yes so he checked around and when he came back to the phone said I should bring my RX-V1800 to the service centre and quote reference number E1185. I asked if they had the fix and they said yes. :ph34r:

Called support centre and asked if fix available for E1185. The guy on phone went away and checked with technician as he would not let me speak with technician.

On return he said- fix is available on-site.

CONCERN- Is it really the fix as it was way too easy? Will drop off later this week and try and see the technician to gain confidence; but it could be the technican does what the fix manual states and has no knowledge of the underlying issue.

The folks that tried reporting problem in the USA yesterday got told it was not a known problem in USA or Japan and for all to register problem. Hmm, something is definitely wrong with this picture!!

Suggest others do same (i.e. call Yamaha music technical support line ) and see if they give the same answer. Post here so we can determine if they understand problem. Don't have the Eagles Disk and have HD-DVD only so someone will need to test.

here is yamaha tech supp number.
Contact Yamaha Music Australia
Street Address
Level 1, 99 Queensbridge Street, Southbank, Victoria, 3006

Postal Address
P.O. Box 268, South Melbourne, Victoria, 3205

Main Switchboard
Ph +61 3 9693 5111, Fax +61 3 9699 2332

Technical Support
Ph 1300 739 390,

Then suggest you contact your nearest support centre .


Bryan

That's good work there mate and thanks for passing the info on, fortunately I'm not affected but Yammy owners may need to be looking at this as I played the Eagles track at my place last night with Kazz present and no probs on the 7002 at all and never had it happen on the 2700b either

Kazz could check with XE1 and 3800 as they would have the same fix available and Kamma could do same for RXV-1800 if he has an affected disk.

Then again I believe we live close to each other. I am SE suburbs of Melbourne and could possibly get a disk from one of you and test once my Yamaha is repaired!!

May post this on Reveiver thread also.

Bryan

Thanks Bryan, I will give them a call later today and see what they say and post back here.

I would definitely like to see a fix for this problem.

Cheers,

Karen.