See this link:

http://www.freetv.com.au/media/News-Media_...L_TV_040707.pdf

The media release says:


MEDIA RELEASE
5 July 2007
FREE TV NETWORKS USHER IN NEW ERA OF DIGITAL TV
Australia’s commercial Free TV broadcasters are set to transform the free-to-view digital
experience by paving the way for the development of free-to-air industry Electronic Program
Guides (EPGs).
In what will be a major boost to the take-up of free-to-view digital TV, commercial broadcasters will
make their program listing information available to manufacturers of set top boxes, personal video
recorders (PVRs) and other service providers provided the equipment displaying the EPG
complies with some base level requirements designed to protect copyright, protect the integrity of
the program information and facilitate collection of ratings information.
Julie Flynn, Chief Executive Officer of Free TV Australia, says this is a significant advance for the
industry and a boon for consumers:
"Free-to-view digital television is an open platform – available to every household in Australia.
"In the same spirit, we believe all consumers should be able to access our electronic program
information.
"Following our announcement today, any EPG service provider will be able to receive our data and
make it available on a range of retail consumer equipment.
"Free TV members acknowledge widespread availability of electronic program information is a
critical plank in the transition to digital television, and today's announcement is a major step
forward."
For media enquiries contact:
Julie Flynn - 0408 455 456
Margaret Fearn - 02 9650 1658


How man days will they display? Will it work with the Toppy now? What does all this mean for IceTV???

Your television will soon be watching what you are watching!

WOW...

Long anticipated, but all my thoughts are very cynical.

The last line talks of: "open platform" and "any EPG service provider will be able to receive our data and make it available"

However the key will obviously be:

"some base level requirements designed to protect copyright, protect the integrity of the program information and facilitate collection of ratings information"

This basically screams Tivo (esp the last requirement) to me. I'd be certain that all STBs will basically get this with no issue. PVRs are probably going to be a different matter. In particular if they have an ad skip function (I suspect FF/REW will not be an issue).

Contrary to what I figured before it seems 9 and 7 et al have all decided to go down this path together.

As for your Toppy? I suspect it won't 'qualify' . Its possible the EPG will be hardware encrypted (ie STBs will need a special chip) but I'd have thought it more likely it will be a software algorythm. I'd presume the usual smart people will make this EPG data available via other means and possibly some manufacturers will release firmware that can read the EPG without authorisation (not highly likely though)

ICETV? Well it is no doubt interesting days for them and this is something they've no doubt anticipated for some time. Their court case with Nine is still undecided but assuming Nine fails then they will be free to sell their own EPG guide and other services. In some ways its a real boon as it will raise the awareness of EPGs considerably and thus their product.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

What does all this mean?
is this any different to what the FTA channels provide now?
Do you need to download via the net, and Txfer to the PVR?

EPG via the broadcast stream is the thing that I would be most interested in.
Currently ABC out to about 4 days of programming info, Prime and WIN both go out a few days.
What would be nice if they all would provide a rolling 7 days EPG

This means a 5-7 day EPG will be broadcast by all channels OTA. So no need to transfer stuff between PCs and STBs etc.

As mentioned it would appear it will be encrypted and only licensed boxes will be able to read it. No idea on when this might kick in though.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

I think I read that the current Tivo in the US no longer has the 'ad skip' function. If I'm correct on that, I see that being part of 'protect the integrity of the program information' and manufacturers not being given the 'codes' to access the data. I would also object to the broadcasters having a method of 'facilitat(ing the) collection of ratings information'.

For G*ds sake, what's wrong with these people? Why don't they want us to have access to an unrestricted FTA programming schedule? I just don't get it.

Simon....

Actually I think this bit relates to the EPG progrma information, not the actual show (eg it can't be given out unencrypted)

Regards

Peter Gillespie

I noticed that on the press release there are no scheduled dates for when all this will eventuate.

Or does following "the announcement today" mean that after today all this will happen?

And what will we now have to purchase to get this bag of tricks?

One thing I am ceratin of.....it won't be free.

FG

What a bunch of complete morons!!! the Government should force all the FTA broadcasters to use the existing EIT delivery system that is part of every standard DVB-T box ever sold in the country, then everyone with a PVR or STB would get a proper 7-day rolling EPG for nix!

Totally agree. The networks should realise that its like free advertisements for their shows. There are many shows on ABC and ABC2 that I have watched (recorded) because Ive noticed them on the EPG. These are shows I would have normally missed. I would in all probability watch more TV if they populated their EPGs.

Yeah, but what about "base level requirements designed to protect copyright"?

There's an Age article about this today:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/business/mas...3351375239.html

I'll spare you the entire thing as it's so ill-informed it's not really worth it. But to get an idea of how skewed the public perceptionis of this situation, this article's basically a textbook case of the sort of ignorance that's out there. Even the title - Massive blow to free-to-air TV - is comedy (getting more people to watch your ailing networks is a "massive blow"?? Sheesh!)

Apologies if the author of this one (Matthew Ricketson) is a member here, but if so, he really should have not come up with stuff like this:



How can they "jealously guard" something that doesn't exist? And screw making EPGs "available to manufacturers" - that helps precisely NONE of the people who've bought digital STBs, PVRs and TVs over the past seven years. Make EPGs available TO THE PUBLIC, for hell's sake - via EIT in the program stream, like the designers of DVB intended.



Earth to journalist: people have been able to fast-forward through ads for DECADES now. Every single video recording device ever made, from Betamax through VHS to modern PVRs, can do it. I see what the PR lackeys are driving at here, primarily based on the notion that most people watch TV live. Why they would is anyone's guess - I've been taping (now PVRing) everything I watch for decades myself so I can view it at a time more suited to me.

But this whole concept - especially if it's driven by "series link", which is available for FREE in the UK as part of, yep you guessed it, standard DVB - only means that more shows are likely to succeed, especially those shows that demand a commitment from the viewer. And hopefully it might also spell the end of "recap television" - shows like Border Security, where the 10 minutes of actual content is overwhelmed by 12 minutes of going over the same stuff again and again for the ADD-afflicted viewer.



Gasp! Video recorders! The phantom menace! Hardly a new threat.



Absolutely no surprise there. As someone mentioned above, the ABC's use of real EIT EPG info on its channels has drive me and many others to watch shows that I wouldn't have even known about otherwise. Noticing one in the EPG list, I can just tell my PVR "record that for me" and see it later.



What we more urgently need is EIT EPGs, *then* let's look at a so-called "industry-wide guide" (which exist already, of course, either pay (Ice) or free (various "illegal" EPG sources). An "industry wide guide" is useless to most with the current hardware base.



That, also mentioned at the top of this thread, is just utterly shameful. It's a sodding program listing, it's not Gone With The Wind.

Imagine if Telstra started encrypting the White Pages so that only compatible web browsers could use it in association with a plug-in that told Telstra what you'd been searching for? There'd be an outcry. Yet so many seem completely comfortable with this ridiculous and purely technicality-based "intellectual property" bollocks when it comes to program guides.

This whole saga continues to gobsmack me. And articles like that one seem to just be toadying to the FTA networks and their arrogant refusal to look after their REAL customers - their viewers. Customers who are increasingly shopping elsewhere...

A full FTA EPG was part of the attraction of the Tivo for me. Now that this will be broadcast to all, I would be interested to see if a hack can be devised if non approved PVRs (assuming toppies/BW etc are classed as non-approved). Here's hoping

I'd like to point out that for the commercial networks, we have never been their customers. We are their consumers. The commercial FTA networks customers are the advertisers. So long as they keep their customers happy by way of keeping us consumers watching, then that's all that matters.

This announcement has 'Tivo' written all over it. Apparently Tivo have a policy of not doing exclusive deals, so presumably 10 and 9 will be looking to release Tivo's of their own. It would appear that the millions of existing STBs will remain with N&N options only, given how weak ACMA is I can only assume they'll be happy with this industry wide "solution".

Its possible some sort of hack will appear on the information, but in practice that will be no different from what currently occurs with say online guides being grabbed and distributed.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

From Smarthouse

So they want me to send them my skip button ?

No you can keep it. All existing boxes will not be eligible for this "largese". The Tivo will be the first FTA qualifying box next year IMO:

Edit: I thought Foxtel we're open to this (and they definitely think they will use the EPG data - they definitely qualify under the restrictions imposed) however the article mentions FreeTV specifically excluding Foxtel from the deal. That should start up a new legal wrangle

I ruminated on it a few times (and this confirms it) but the networks aren't bothered by FF/REW (This is the same as VCR capability and people often retain brand awareness better as they have to concentrate on the TV while FF the ad).

Whilst there already exists a perfectly (and fully backwardly compatible with all STB) usable EPG (the EIT currently limited to N&N) this won't be used.

Instead, the networks hope to force the Tivo model on users. This will require a connection to the internet for downloading the encrypted EPG direct to the Tivo. The Tivo will have FF/REW capability only (probably to a max of 6x or so).

Future PVRs (by any manufacturer) will simply have to have any skipping functionality disabled (and any ability to extract an EPG from its memory to say a PC) to be eligible for the EPG.

Unfortunately (or fortunately) the Tivo is a damn good PVR with some amazing features, great interface and ease of use) and for the majority of users will be all they want.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

Interesting, all the pieces are coming together. The NINE v ICE case is critical. I wonder if the EPG announcements are an indication that 9 think they have got the case won?

Actually I suspect its just been rendered irrelevant IMO. Also IMO ICE will probably win their case (although the cynic in me wonders if the networks don't make ICE and offer they can't refuse before a (long overdue) judgement is rendered.) This will mean ICE will be able to continue to provide EPG information to whomever on there own terms. However the networks are obviously hoping to create a "standard" that will basically force future STBs/PVRs sold in Oz to disable a skip button. Without this concession they'll have to compete with boxes with EPG capabilities built in. Basically this then comes down to the consumer as SKIP v EPG. I'd imagine most people will go for the EPG once the Tivo ad campaigns kick in.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

amen! And this is happening in so many areas in todays world. I stand by my saying, you dont need to be smart in todays world. Just capable of two things, to speak bulls***, and to speak bulls%%% to others. (read: anyone with a clue and common sense wont do the latter). yay for dumb people!

People just create so much extra work needlessly its shocking. If people banded together to create a single, much better product instead of a multitude of half arsed ones. We'd be far better off. *sigh*

Perhaps 9 feel that by backing ICE into a corner they can force them to only supply EPG data to boxes that "complied with conditions including not allowing commercials to be skipped."

Neon Kitten, just wanted to say "Excellent Post" in general, but this sentence is the best.

Simon....

ICEs business is supplying EPG data to various products. No doubt their very existance has been a prod for the networks to start moving on producing an EPG. However as none of the products ICE supplies EPG infomation to would fulfil the networks requirements I think its unlikely ICE will be signing on any time soon. They'd basically have to refund every subscription to every member they have. As I said, ICE are pretty confident they'll defeat Nine's lawsuit which will leave them free to market their own EPG just as the networks will be marketing theirs.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

So it will probably come down to the following choice (assuming hardware is equal):

IceGuide: $2 per week, but skip enabled
or
Network EPG: free, but skip disabled

Hmmmm, interesting choice. Personally I'd probably stick with Ice, with their over-the-web programming and whatever else they do in the future.

I disagree Peter. If nine win and thus validate the idea that there is copyright in an EPG then the FTA networks get to decide who can supply a PVR with EPG. Hello Tivo!

If ICE wins, Tivo has to win market share on other criteria such as ease of use, pq, capacity, price, ability to skip ads etc, etc, etc.

I'm not a lawyer, but I'd love to know the legal position on third line forcing and EPGs......a question that also becomes relevant if Nine wins.

Don't forget, Tivo is rumoured to be $2.50 per month
Like iTunes - you pay more for less

Fair enough (I'm mostly ruminating :)) but to me, if Nine win then ICE closes down (although they anticipate even in this case they will simply be instructed as to how to modify their procedures such as they can still operate but not 'violate' copyright.)

If ICE 'win' then they will be able to create there own EPG and sell it to whomever. It will at least be a tempering factor but now that every network in Australia is pushing a certain EPG licencing agreement I'd not expect any future PVR manufacturers to commit sales suicide by disabling a big chunk of their units features for little benefit (remember the EPG will be provided FREE to any manufacturer that complies with the networks requirements). As mad max says it will simply come down to skip v EPG.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

Out on a limb: Expect Nine to quietly withdraw its lawsuit against ICE in the coming weeks (The lawsuit was mostly designed to a) kill of the ICE public float and b) Try bankrupt ICE (or scare them about it) anyway - they succeeded in the first, failed in the latter.

I dont get how viewing or using a EPG, has anything to do with the other functions of a Tivo or PVR.
It seems like blackmail to force the use of devices which cant skip adds, just so we can use a EPG service which should have been freely avaliable for years . . . . . . . . . . . .
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. . . . . . . . :ph34r:

I have a vision of the future........

OZTAM buys ICE TV.

This becomes the vehicle where FTA networks sell their EPG to TIVO and PVR manufacturers and OZTAM source far more comprehensive viewing data!

:ph34r:

*wakes up screaming* Arrrrrgh, say it aint so, say it aint sooooo!!!

Sales suicide exactly Peter . Methinks those who like 30 sec skip buttons ;should buy NOW !!! Its a shame the government cant be sued for disabling a mandated epg system I think I'le complain to ACA ... No today tonight ... no ....

I wonder if Microsoft will be allowed to use it?

absolutel. well you'd hope so...why re-invent the wheel !

There's one line in the press release that doesn't seem to of drawn as much attention here as I thought it might of ..............

From S.M.H

She said commercial broadcasters would make the electronic program guides available to manufacturers of personal video recorders and set-top boxes, providing manufacturers encrypted them to protect program makers' copyright.

What does this mean ?? TiVo Only ????

And I'm sorry, I cannot find the source, but I did read "somewhere"..........

"..........within three months"


Austen.

Cos they can set the rules for the new version

Regards

Peter Gillespie

All,
Instead of complaining to each other complain here
dicta.mail@dcita.gov.au
Senator Coonan Minister dcita
Senator.conroy@aph.gov.au (Shadow dcita minister)

AlanH

Cause Coonan is a waste of perfectly good oxygen!!!!

Remember the Digital TV review from a while back, well despite numerous quality submissions from DTV forum posters and even OEM's what did we get ..... NOTHING!

djos,
What is needed is to feed this to the opposition who are in election mode.

AlanH

Hmmm, any idea who the current "ICT spokesperson" is for the ALP? Back when Jackie Kelly had the gig she did a great job imo.

Hi All,

This whole thing is a crock! TV stations should use the existing EPG structure that is already built into the DVB-T standard which is already supported by many of our existing DTV devices. Are they seriously telling people that they will have to dump all currently existing STBs, PVRs and integrated digital tuner TVs to get an EPG? Even a mass upgrade program, if possible, would be costly and probably unworkable. Remember we are talking about a simple list of TV programs that are scheduled to screen on each channel. This is the same list that is already published freely in our daily papers, magazines and on the Internet etc.

There are a number of worrying things in the original Media Release. What concerns me most is the statement that the equipment must be "designed to protect copyright, protect the integrity of the program information and facilitate collection of ratings information" all of these functions have no relevance to an EPG. It appears that this offer is to be used as a vehicle to push some other hidden corporate agenda.

Why must an EPG be designed to "protect copyright"? The data itself may be copyright but how does EPG data, a list of TV programs, itself protect copyright? I can understand if they simply want the EPG data to be protected from illegal extraction and alternate use but they haven't said that. It is a silly thing to demand anyway given the free access to this information that already exists in so many formats.

What does "protect the integrity of the program information" mean? How does this relate to an EPG? All I could come up with was that it could mean that the EPG data should be displayed as provided? Again, the objective is not clearly stated. The statement appears to have nothing to do with an EPG. Is this some back-handed way of trying to say that to have the EPG data available the functions of a PVR must be disabled? Must trick play be disabled? Must the fast forward and rewind commands be disabled? How does any of this relate to a list of TV programs being provided electronically?

Why should an EPG have to "facilitate collection of ratings information"? One has absolutely nothing to do with the other; one is a list of programs scheduled to screen on a channel, the other is a historic log of what programs were actually watched by a viewer. This is a blatant invasion of privacy and an obvious attempt to spy on users. This functionality should not be supported without specific consent by each individual user. It has absolutely nothing to do with an EPG.

The other piece of rubbish I keep hearing being thrown around in this context is the supposed fact that an EPG allows people with PVRs to edit out commercials. What rubbish! The ability to edit out commercials has been available for years with VCRs. The only EPG data I have ever heard about is the list of program start and end times for shows screening on TV. This list, which is usually inaccurate, does not indicate where during the program commercials are located. How does the ability to edit what one watches of a show relate to the provision of a list of what TV shows screening at what times?

I hope that whatever government departments regulate this industry and protect our privacy get tough with those people who constantly try to diminish our rights and our privacy.

Regards,
Ian.

Ian, this is a pretty good summary of the objections to a "private" EPG. What about submitting it to the SMH for example, as a letter to the editor?

Phil.

Hear hear!

Yep you've got it in one....

If it is (and remains) free I could live with 6x FF...seeing as I only watch ABC and occaisionally SBS!

The FTA networks have to get revenue from somewhere otherwise they couldn't remain free and skipping ads in a show easily recorded via a comprehensive EPG will mean a loss of revenue for the networks. If I was to find a show worth watching on 7, 9, or 10 I could live with their silly restrictions and even the data mining for ratings. As we browse these forums we are having our data mined by our ISP's so I don't see a great deal of difference.

One of my fears is that the broadcasters may use "popup" ads (kinda like when you visit some websites - Sydney Morning Herald - and ads all over the EPG as another method of increasing advertising revenue - ie you highlight a show you want to record and then a 30 second Ad comes on saying...
"This show is brought to you by [insert company/product name] etc"

Might need a change of govt to force a 7 day free over the air EIT EPG??

This FTVA announcement seems all smoke and mirrors, promises lots, but in reality delivers next to nothing unless you pay extra for it.

Would love to know what all these 'conditions' or rather 'restrictions' are that are to be imposed on STB/PVR manufcaturers?

If it means no ad skipping, no to the minute timing, and automatic deletion of programs off PVR's after a certain time period, then this will only further alienate the viewing masses over time.

BT has really taken over in many respects anyways, FTA TV in this country is so 20th century.

And the crock about these 'enabled' boxes being used for ratings collection of data, what bullsh*t, the real ratings figures will never be released. As happened when ratings boxes appeared in the 1990's to replace the old diary system, it was suddenly discovered that the ratings of ABC/SBS went up lots to the detriment of commercial networks. But when old man Packer found out, those places that were known to be viewing lots of ABC/SBS had those boxes ripped out and put into homes of known commercial network viewers.

The FTVA announcement is corporate spin, spin, spin, spin, and nothing else!

Hopefully ACMA does not get hodwinked into accepting this and will instead mandate for a full 7 day free over the air EIT EPG.

Maybe I'm not too smart, but will someone please explain for me, in words of one syllable or less, the connection between an EPG and not-seeing-adverts ???

I was under the impression that all an EPG was going to do was to make it easier "To program the VCR".

Given it's a known fact that 99.897% of people over the age of 16 cannot program a VCR, surely the ability to "Record every instance of Today Tonight" will result in more television watching rather than less ???

IMHO, The only reason to "cripple" the EPG is to prevent the general wide-spread uptake of PVR's ????

It seems that the broadcasters think that the only time I should watch Fridays "Today Tonight" is at 6.30pm on Friday, rather than 10.00pm Friday, or heaven forbid, 3.00pm Saturday afternoon.

If I was a broadcaster, I wouldn't of thought it would matter too much to me when my viewers were watching my shows, as long as they were watching them .............

So, Do the networks just really want to prevent the widespread introduction of PVR's by denying the "Killer App" ??????




Austen.

*TT.....Just as an example !!!!

maybe they'll optimise the ad's for pvrs. you know make them run really really slow, so when the pvrites come across the adds and zoom through them at x4 normal speed the add then looks perfectly normal the networks just need to be a bit smarter about things that is all