Hello All,

I have created an online petition to give us, the consumers a unified voice when it comes to expressing our dissatisfaction with the functionality of consumer products, namely the LG LST-5402P and LST-5403P HD DVR.


The following features are not present and are requested to be implemented via a firmware revision for the LG HD DVR products.

(1) Overlapping timer functionality. This is critical to allow for comprehensive scheduling of overlapping shows on separate channels.

(2) Ability to pre-name timer's. This is critical as current auto naming of recordings results in incorrect labelling.

(3) Ability to allow the user to sort recorded shows by alphanumeric or date/time. This is critical as it is cumbersome to find recordings in the current random implementation when the list grows.

(4) Allow 30 second skip assigned to left/right navigation buttons during the viewing of a recording. This is desirable as the current smart skip results in unpredictable navigation.

(5) Resume play of programs. This is desirable to resume a recording from a previous session - like modern DVD players.


The Petition is :


To the CEO of LG Electronics Australia,
We, the undersigned, believe that LG Electronics Australia must provide the above featured firmware update for the LST-5402P and LST-5403P HD DVR products. The update is necessary to bring the product to the comparative feature level of the competition and give loyal LG brand customers the product they deserve.


Please follow this link and sign now - http://www.gopetition.com/online/8814.html


Any chance of success is now in your hands. Lets us all please unite !


Moderator(s), please make this a sticky post. I beleive this has never been tried before, and is very important to us all as consumers to at least give it a good go !

Cheers,
Muz

Thanks for going to the trouble of organising this Muzz. It will be great if it has some effect.

Thanks zekey,

I would just like to say to others that even if you arn't currently an onwer of an LG but are a potential client in the future, it may be worth while for you to sign up !

Seeya,
Muz

Okay, all signed. I had a thought though. Earlier in the main forum you mentioned the addition of serial numbers to the petition. I think it'd be a lot more powerful if they were included, otherwise LG might simply think everyone who signed it is faking...

Anyway, thanks for the effort. All the best.

All signed. Im really interested on how you go Muz. I remember when LG brought out its first HD STB
it too had bugs but LG fixed most of them in about 3 weeks.
They even joined the DBA Forum to help out.

Yes you would be surprised on who reads this Forum.

I wanted the serial but it turns out I could not add a custom field to the petition. I did find one site that allowed it, but it was ugly as sin and looked very amature. I hope LG won't risk thinking the signatures are fake - they may take a random sample of emails and contact some people to validate, who knows.

Anyway, as I said, perhaps future customers should not be dismissed anyway - I'm sure LG would prefer to seal those too instead having them gravitate towards the Toshi or Sony.

Cheers,
Muz

Guys, good luck but be careful what you wish for.

The LG has some functionality shortcomings but it is reliable. The more functionality they add, the more things can go wrong and you may turn a working product into a nightmare. It took Toshiba a year to get theirs (almost) right and it's looking the same for Sony.

Absolutely. The more features, the more room for things to go wrong. The caveat to this is that the LG hardware is a lot faster and capable. The Toshi and Sony's struggle with the firmware can be somewhat attributed to the wofully underspecced hardware. I am speculating here - however my profession is related to this industry and my guesses tend to be of the "educated" type. But by all means, I never pretend to be always correct !

Cheers,
Muz

Either that or LG deliberately backed off on the functionality because the hardware can't cope with any more.

I signed as well.
I hope things change quickly as now with the World Cup I need twin scheduled recordings very much.
Well done Muz.

Regarding the serial numbers I think its better that we don't have them included. I know already 3 families who HAVEN'T BOUGHT the LG PVR only because its shortcomings. Those people along with anyone else who considers of buying this product but waits for alternatives must have a say in this petition. And I made sure they know about it.
DK

Possible, but highly unlikely. The unit is fast and sharp, the quality of the menu system is graphically complex and pleasing to the eye. These factors are an indicator of a high performance processor. Secondly the unit is aware of the currently used tuners - the firmware just does not have the logic to deal with this information for the Timers.





Good work dimitris. However considering we only have 20 signatures so far, it's going to be a lonnnngggg process even before we hand the petition to LG. It would be great if we can speed it up - spread the word, encourage people to sign.

Cheers,
Muz

Hopefully you're right Muz. I just think it is very strange that LG would limit the functionality knowing that all other twin tuner PVRs on the market can do this one fundamental thing that their's can't.

Why?

Having owned an LG for a short time I do agree that it is a slick performing unit. That said, the speed of the hardware doesn't seem to be a problem for the Sony or the Toshiba. If it was, there would be continuous problems. The problems seen in those are due to software bugs and firmware releases are fixing the problems. The Strong SRT5290 on the other hand had functionality stripped out each time there was a firmware release. This WAS because the hardware couldn't cope and the functionality had to be reduced to make it stable.

LG my have gone down the path of single Timer perhaps with the rational of striking a balance between ability to record - like a VCR, but also at the same time allow complete and uniterrupted live viewing. This concept certainly makes sense to people migrating from a VCR. You could always record 1 thing, and you could always watch live tv too. I can see this being a concious decision - the thing they missed is that the general PVR population focuses primarily on watching pre-recorded material - and as such fully featured recording ability is paramount, and live viewing should come secondary if a tuner is required to record something.

As far as performance of Sony and Toshiba. PVR's are asynchronous devices. Many actions happen at the same time, out of order. They do not wait for one action to complete succesfully before carrying on with another - where success can be guaranteed. Poor CPU performance inherently does not cope well with these sorts of operations - as the co-ordination gets bogged down things can get lost. It's possible Sony and Toshiba have stripped the firmware to a bare minimum to compensate for the slow CPU - and as such they may have cut corners with not enough checks and balances in the logic. They could possibly make the software more robust, however this would make it bulkier with additional program code, and performance may become unnecaptible.


pheeeew..

Muz

Can't speak for the Sony, but the Toshiba is now fully functional and stable with the current hardware. CPU speed appears capable of keeping up with the software.

i personally dont have a problem with the issues highlited by muzz, i bought the unit fully aware of the limitations and i don't intend to record 2 things and watch another etc...i have other things to do than be in front of the tv for that long.

be that as it may i think no.3 and no.5 would be useful but not critical

also i think it's a great thing you are trying to achieve anyway muzz - keep at it and good luck, as you say if it helps to improve these companies products it can only be a good thing.

this is a great unit so far thought

Sure is. But at the cost of painful refinement after refinment. An OSD that looks like it came off a Commodore Vic20. And from memory, a less than stellar menu response speed.






Yeah I think so. Inherently this is an exercise of trying to take it to the man to see if we, the little consumers can make a difference.

How do I get this post to be pinned? I have sent a PM to all the mods quite some time ago - not even a reply - perhaps they have a lot in the que. I hope this is not considered completely irelevant. I consider this quite an important exercise on a veriety of levels. In reality it's not just about LG - it's about whether we can succeed and set a precedence - or fail miserably and prove that this avenue is not warranted. At the very least maybe some company can stand up and take notice for future product design.


Cheers,
Muz

Muz,

You have legitimately raised some functionalty limitations with this particular product.

I suggest that you do a product review on this product providing the pros and the cons - and post it to the DTV Forum Product Reviews. As some of the respondents have said the shortfalls you have raised are 'nice to haves' but not critical to their purchase decision. While I am sure to others they would be key factors in the buying decision. A legitimate review would allow the reader to make this decision.

As for consumer power - I know the reviews area of the DTV Forum is viewed by the more pro-active suppliers so you can be pretty sure that the point you have raised will get back to the decision makers.

I am also concerned that the forum is not used by suppliers either shamelessly promoting their own product or denigrating competitor's products. When a review lacks balance (between the pros and the cons) - forum participants should report their suspicions to me (Muz, please don't infer that I suspect you of doing this).

Thanks for your contribution.

Regards

Timo (Super Mod)

Thanks Timo,

I think a 3 way shootout style review with the three products on the market would be brilliant. However my Toshiba experience is outdated not owning the unit since launch. And my Sony experience is limited to a 30 minute in-store assessment. As such I would not be able to provide a balanced write up from a first-hand perspective. I do know that some owners here have cycled through all the units intimately and would be better candidates.

In your reply you did not address my request for “pinning” this thread. I presume it then does not qualify for this status. This is fine, I do not make the rules here and are happy to accept your judgement. Thank you for your time.

Cheers,
Muz

But surely a piece of crap is a piece of crap. And a review is subjective after all. (I'm not referring to the LG here, but what would a review on the J35 have looked like 12 months ago?)

Or have I misinterpreted something here?

Cheers,
Aaron

Muz, for what it's worth, I think your petition though well intentioned, will ultimately rely on the weight of numbers to have any impact in the boardroom. Having said that, and in contrast with Tim's suggestion, I don't believe the same number of reviews on this forum, casually remarking on the absence of twin timer functionality would have the same impact. Good luck!!

Thanks Mining Man.

The numbers is the bottom line here, no doubt about it.

So far we have collected 44 signatures in 3 days. That is absolutely brilliant and I wish to thank all those that have taken the time.

I can see the list and all signatures are valid except for Mr Lucky Goldstar currently residing at lucky@lg.com. While I'm sure this was well intentioned I must stress that the numbers are meaningless without authenticity. I beg you to only sign if you are committed to the petition, and are willing to put your real name to it.

The one concern I have is of us exhausting the supply of people on here who can sign. If there is anything you can do or think off to give the petition more exposure, please let me know. I have set an arbitrary benchmark of ~200 signatures before we take it to LG.

Once again Thanks and good luck to us all,
Muz

Update : 49 Signatures as at 18 June 06.

yeesh, lg must be pretty bad in the customer service to need a petition to improve their product

Oh yes, but with Sony's recent outing - they keep good company. Or is it the other way around?

LG could win some major brownie points with consumers if they do not blindly dimiss this petition. Be the case, I certainly would strongly consider them and their producs in the future - and I would sing their praises equally. This could be an opportunity for LG to propell themselves to a head above the rest. Time will tell.

Muz

Update :

59 signatures in 7 days. Common lads we need a few more !

Muz

69 now.

Interesting number.

Update : 10 days, 74 signatures

I am encouraged by the numbers of people signing up. LG may be a little surprised that this sort of number can be rounded up to sign it. They are advertising the unit heavily on the WC coverage and I would guess are selling very, very many of the units - many thousands in fact. How will they react?

They may snort huffily and say "You got 200 people out of 6,000 (guess) boxes sold to sign? Come back when you have 2,000." On the other hand, they MAY realise that getting several hundred owners who have no knowledge of each other and are spread throughout the country, is quite impressive.

They ARE putting out updates. That much is clear. But it is only to deal with time issues. They may think that a substantive upgrade would create major headaches for them - imagine thousands of box owners having to be informed of the upgrade and then the logistics of implementing such a recall? LG may shudder a little at this - they don't want to get into a Castel type scenario.

Most critically of all, they may simply say that they cannot get enough stock to satisfy the insatiable demand of the Australian public - they are flying out of the stores. Every store I go into always has a stack of them, one or two Sony's and no Toshibas. The advertising campaign continues unabated. In fact, I don't recall a more sustained ad. campaign on TV for a High Def recorder.

They are clearly very pleased with themselves. The petition may help. it will be fascinating to see their response. Who, exactly will you send it to Muzz? There is a delicate balance here between TIME and NUMBERS. What may push this along a little is contact with one of the current affairs programs - would they be interested in a story like this?

They might have been at the height of the Toshiba shambles. My concern is that the story lacks impetus as the unit basically works. But it so BLOODY annoying that it won't resume play. I can live with the lack of twin timer although it will be an ongoing issue. I can live with the awkward FF/REW picture. The audio sync is something I am keeping an eye on.

How hard can it be to implement these things? I tried fruitlessly to see who in the LG empire I could contact in Korea, but apart from a name and smiling photograph, there is no getting to the head honcho.

I have stopped recording the WC games on the LG. The FF speed is too fast and the still pictures displayed give no real sense of what is going on - some games are dead boring and only watchable at 2X time speed.
I don't want to sound too grumbly so I will finish on the positives - great picture, still as reliable as ever, great for most things. I have already accumulated a terrific list of recordings to watch as soon as the WC is over.

Talk about boring games - Ukraine V tunisia. Carlton / Kangaroos would have been better. Or the Storm game.

Pve,

I have not yet obtained a good lead on a source at LG that carries any clout. If anyone can contribute in this depeatment it would be a help. However there is still time before we take it to them.

As far as Current Affairs programs. That may be bit unrealistic in the grand sceheme of things in this world. But if you are able to arrange something that I'm not aware off - I'm not camera shy, haha.

How LG reacts to the petition only time will tell. The worst reaction of all would be No reaction at all.

Anyway on we go... 84 signatures. And there are people posting comments too. Good work, and thanks for the contribution.

Cheer,
Muz

Hi Muzz,

I signed your petition a while ago. Great work.

I almost have permission to buy one. If your petition is successful, would the outcome be to provide a firmware upgrade to existing owners (eg to upgrade from 1.7 tuner to 2.0 tuner)?

Or is it more a case of a wish list for the next generation PVR that LG build?


Thx.

I have the LST-5402P and have just signed the petition. Overall though i think it is a great recorder. But youre right it should be brought up to the standard of others. Thank you for taking the time to get this petition going.

Hopefully you meant specification, not standard. If you'd like it to perform to the same standard as the Sony or Toshiba, then may I suggest pouring brine or some other salty liquid into the back of it...

Typhoon,

The petition aims to upgrade the existing units.

Muz



Haha, high five.

Muz

Update : 93 Signatures

I have added my name to the Petition. I bought my unit two weeks ago, no problems except the issues on the Petition. Until, last night! Timer set to record a program. Went to watch the recording, after a couple of minutes it freezes. Can't get past this point. Maybee LG can incorporate a file repair utility to analyse corrupt files, remove dodgy sections and allow us to at least watch the rest of the file. Wanted to watch it too! Bugger. Haven't heard the end of this one so far from the wife. why did you pay so much money if its not reliable. Come on LG, help me out here!

Welcome. Hope this was a one off anomaly. Mine has never ever missed a beat. And I never switch it off, goes 24/7. The odds are that it won't happen again. Based on community feedback the LG is hands down the most robust HD PVR available.

Anyway, UPDATE : 98 Signatures

Cheers,
Muz

UPDATE : 114 Signatures

Update : 141 Signatures

We are getting closer to the arbitrary benchmark. Good work everyone and lets hope we have luck !

Cheers,
Muz

Having now heavily researched the LG, I think the petition misses some very important points, and also goes too far.

The too far is requesting overlapping timer functionality. You are really asking for a different (though of course better) product. This would be very expensive to do, and is thus likely to be ignored by LG. And this may result in the rest of the petition being less effective.

In my opinion there are three major things a PVR needs to do well.

The first is picture quality.

The major problem with the LG picture is the white and black rectangles running down the right hand side of the screen when viewing ABC HD. This is a fault that must be fixed.

This fault was not know when the partition was started, but is now, in my mind, the major fault of the LG.

The second major requirement of a PVR is reliable recording.

There are reports that sometimes things go wrong. This must be fixed. Yet it is not mentioned in the petition.

Also, at the moment, recording can be stopped by the user hitting standby whilst the unit is recording. If the monitor has been turned off first, the user will not see the brief warning message. It is unacceptable that bad design can result in recordings being stopped by mistake. The unit should be modified so that the display message says somethign like "Do you want to stop the recording? - press A to stop, B to continue."

If the user then does nothing, the recording continues (with the display message being output to the switched off monitor).

This fault is also not mentioned in the petition.

Fixing the picture, ensuring 100% reliable recording, and fixing the standby stopping a recording fault, are the three things that are stopping me from buying the LG.

If LG fixed these three things, I would buy the unit and be very happy.

The third important thing for a PVR is the useability. On the whole, the LG is good, but can be improved.

I am not sure how the timer name is given at the moment. A very good solution is to use the name broadcast at about the middle of the recording. This would suit most peope most of the time. If this was implemented, then I suspect most users would never bother to change the name of a recording.

So the critical thing is to automatically give the recording a sensible name. Changing names (before or after) is just nice.

A random list of recordings is not user friendly. I think the most sensible solution is to just show the recordings in chronological order.

It would be nice to also have the option of alphanumeric ordering, but this is only nice, not neccessary.

Changing the skip to a 30 second jump (instead of the current 3.33%) would make the skip much more predictable (and thus useful).

And who could disagree that Resume play would be a significant improvement.

So my petition would be:
LG must:
a) fix the 720p picture
ensure that recordings are 100% reliable, and
c) change the interface so that a user cannot stop a recording by mistake by pressing the standby button

Improvements that would be appreciated by customers are:
d) Resume play
e) Change skip to 30 seconds instead of 3.33% of recording lenght
f) list the recorded programs in chronological order, and
d) name a recording by the name broadcast around the half way point of the recording (if this is not already done)

I am not sure how the start and stop times are entered. But if it is only in 5 minute intervals, then, for me, it is essential that the user be able to start and stop recordings on the minute. (I would want to end one recording at 8:31 and start the next at 8:32).

I am sure that my comments will not be universally accepted, so I welcome further debate.

Cheers,
Michael

some good points micheal

to add to your point about the stanby whilst unit is recording, i also found a particular annoyance is that when you start a manual recording you are given the option of how long you want to record for. if you sit on an option for about 5 sec. it automatically selects this time. this can be annoying as if you have chosen the wrong time you have to wait the minimun 1 minute before stopping the recording and starting again (this is the minimum ammount of recording time)

Nope there is not too much I would disagree with in your post Michael. However I don't know how much more useful having the program name derive from the EPG midway through the recording would be. If it's anything like my experience the EPG info is often way out of whack, sometimes many hours out of date on some channels. The ability to name timers as is the case with the Toppy PVRs would be so much better in my opinion.

Anyway like many I'm not holding out much hope that LG responds to this petition in any significant way. But you never know and it certainly doesn't hurt to sign it.

Hopefully at the very least the defect in displaying the ABC HD signal will be corrected as this is easily noticed and a lot of people should pick this problem up including during in-store demos as that picture flaw is pretty much always there on CH20. The initial design of the LG PVR was probably never expecting to have to deal with a 720p signal from an Australian broadcaster under the DVB-T standard. So in the rush to market who knows but there could've well been some corners cut in testing this area and hence now the emergence of this problem. But you would think that if LG ignores this problem it will surely hurt its future sales of this product not to mention whatever after sales service reputation it has with its existing customers like myself.

1.Guys! The thing is not perfect. We know that. Each one of us has an improvement we would love to have. The thing is to focus on the BIG PICTURE. At the moment, this means twin timer and resume play. If the demands become so numerous and varied as to occupy a book, then LG will slam it shut and put it away.

2.It IS reliable in record and replay. That is, indisputably its greatest strength. It is the main reason it is competitive and sells well.

3.The 720p thing is a fault so obvious it gives solid grounds for 'not fit for the purpose it was sold'. It therefore should be fixed. If not, they will get a lot returned.

4. I too have doubt as to LG's response. I am not at all confident. But the more you ask for the less the response will be.

5. Bit of credit for Muz - at least he got off his arse and did something.

6. The stand by - record off problem is an issue - you just have to remember to check. Would be nice to have it fixed

No disagreement there. Well done Muzza!

If I may address, see my reply in RED




Cheers,
Muz

Muz,

Before I comment on your comments, I want to thank you for your work on the petition.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on the two timer issue. Writing software is a major expense. That is why I think it unlikely that LG will do such a major revision.

I do think it likely that their next product might take user demand into account.

I agree that the 720p bug can reasonably be expected to be fixed without the petition.

The standby stopping of a recording is of major concern to me because this design flaw means that the PRV will fail to reliably record all programs. Because of my actions - yes. And I will be careful and minimize it. But late at night humans make mistakes, and even a careful me will be sure to once or twice accidently stop a recording because of this interface mistake. So for me this is a big issue.

I have no personal experience of the reliablity of the LG for normal recording. Of course people only post when something goes wrong. I am very pleased that you think it is reliable.

I have had a Strong SD PVR for two and a half years, and only once ever renamed a recording. 99.9% of the time I watch then delete. So for me the renaming is minor (after all, I will not miss a recording because of this).

Of course others use their PVR differently.

Cheers,
Michael

bizarre though it might seem teac provided better support for its HDstb. how many s/w updates did we have. 7 or 8 ? and plenty of features brought through along the way as well. Dont give up, keep the pressure on muz and LG will cave

I now have the 106 update on mine but I still get the white mark down the right hand side when watching ABC 20. Also the update has not improved the EPG it is still out of whack by many hours. However it is still a good product overall

Nope, not a one off, it happened again. But . . . . Same circumstances. Get this.

I have the LG set to start recording 'House' five minutes before the scheduled start and continues for 70 minutes. Both times I started a manual recording on the same channel for the program before 'House'. When that program is finished and 'House' is already recording I want to stop the manual recording so i can start recording 'Prison Break'. So I press stop. I asks which one i want to stop, recording 1 or 2. Obviosly I stop 1 because it was the first to start. I checked this time that 'House' was still recording and indeed it was. I then start to Tape the other program. Now, when 'Prison break' is finished I want to watch house. It has a recording length of 1H 10M. But, when you play it it only goes for 5 minutes then crashed the LG. Exacly the same as last time. I am guessing that in this scenario when i stop one recording on the same channel as another recording a glitch occurs in the one left recording. It cannot play past this frame, freezes and gives up.

Can anyone try to replicate this to see if it is a fault with my unit or another glitch in the firmware.

Thanks!!

Daydgord; I can confirm its the firmware - not your unit.I recorded SVU and Numbers and cold case and close to home on the other tuner.It preferentially will stop tuner No 2 if you start recording on tuner 1.I always as a matter of course press the enter button to see the tiny record time numbers ticking over with the relevant pip;s.I learnt never to rely on the recorded program list even when it said it was recording.Notice how your House recording only lasted 5 minutes? Thats when you put tuner 1 back into service recording Prison Break.This has only happened a few times and I usually dont record multiple shows back to back - only true HD shows.Ive finally learnt [ like pavlovs dog] to start the important show recording first.

Thanks Muz for starting the petition. Have just signed it.

Have been keen to buy a PVR HD STB for a while now, but the 3 on the market seem to have significant issues. Am tired of being an early adoptor of new tech with bad firmware !!

Will buy one as soon as a significant number of these issues are resolved.