Hi guys,
Im still reasonably new to the whole DTV business
Im about to buy a Palsonic 42" SD Plasma panel.
Now what i want to know is that should i get a SD or HD stb with that?
What will the benefits of a HD stb be?
If i get a SD stb, will i still be able to receive the HD channels?
Thanks guys,

Try a HD STB. You can get one for under $300. Probably better PQ

You cannot get useful HD channels froma SD STB. My Kaon 200 occassionally gets 7HD but the picture breaks up and there's no sound.

Save your money. Its a SD TV which will show an SD image - your HD image will be translated down to a SD image on your TV.

The HD channels in Oz all show exactly the same content as the SD channels so you're not missing out on anything by only being able to see SD channels.

HD broadcasts do theoretically broadcast in dolby 5.1 while SD are just stereo, but in practice the vast majority of HD broadcasts are also just stereo. The majority of HD broadcasts are also just SD broadcasts that have been upscaled to HD - again slightly better but nothing like seeing something shot in true HD, on a HD TV via a HD STB.

If your looking to spend $300 or more on a STB get a SD PVR which will let you skip ads, pause live tv, and set recordings for digital TV.

Some claim HD on a SD TV is marginally better but given the premium your paying its not that much better. You can always ask to see this setup in store and judge for yourself.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

Hmmm, before you mentioned a PVR, i had no idea what it was actually. After some research, im starting to think you're right! A PVR would be great especially becuase im a student and would therefore miss alot of programs on TV during my study time. Recording would be fantastic. So what's a good PVR thats around the $300 mark?

Better to ask that in the PVR branch of this forum. Read the AQA (PINNED) section on "Twin Tuners" just to be aware of one main factor when buying a PVR. A cheap Wintal costs around $270 and is the base model. Few more functional models when you jump up to $500 and the top of the bunch is the Toppy at $760 (Probably overkill for you).

A link to Wintal to get you started:

http://wintal.com.au/set_top_boxes/43121058.html

Sold here for $270 although a bit cheaper on EBay or other places:

http://www.smartstore.com.au/product_info.php?products_id=51

Regards

Peter Gillespie

So what your saying, is buy a digital TV with great connections and scrimp on the STB that actually feeds the image, and the recommend one that has s-video out.. No component, no digital connections, nothing...

The MAIN reason people get HD STB 's is for the MUCH MUCH MUCH better connections, having digital signal and thats a huge improvement on PQ.

Agreed, at that point a HD channel is marginally better, but an SD channel using component/DVi etc is better than an SD using s-video by a massive amount.

I have to agree with mxlaser the PQ improvement for even SD programs via DVI compared to Svideo is quite noticable.

Not quite

Not recommending the Wintal persay, just "something to get you started" if you know nothing about PVRs (esp. if you only want to shell out $300). I'd hope kluc would spend a little time research his requirements before shelling out $.


I would have thought the MAIN reason is much better HiDef pictures to begin with (as long as you have a HD TV that is). But as we're talking connecting to a SD TV then the improvement becomes much, much, much less obvious. With phrases such as MASSIVE AMOUNT and MUCH, MUCH, ETC. then I guess it should be a no brianer. As always I'd invite any purchaser to check out a few SD/HD setups in store and come to their own conclusion.

As I mentioned on another thread most people would find the difference fairly marginal (10%? 20%?) to some this increase in quality is worth any amount of money, but to others I reckon they'd feel ripped off finding out how 'little' extra they got paying three times the price. (Remember we're talking HD STB feeding into a SD TV). So if a digital neophyte asks should I pay extra for this then I'd say it fairly misleading to say you will get a "massively" improved picture. "Quite noticable" might be a better description.

Personally I find SVideo fine, if a little "soft" and presumably you'd equate a component connect as much closer to the digital connectivity options. Agree that kluc should get a component connection if possible.

I should admit to a bias here. Personally I find the level of enjoyment a SD PVR provides is massively more than watching a show in HD. If you can afford to go HD all the way (and that would be fantastic) that's great, but till then I'll stick with the SD PVR.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

I would also support the advice to get an SD PVR rather than a HD STB for two reasons:

1) There is not enough true HD content around, particularly if, like me, Channels 9 and 10 barely get a look in; and

2) A SD PVR adds greatly to viewing flexibility. With a plasma, YUV connectivity is worthwhile though.

Personally, wih HD-DVD/Blu-Ray and PS3 just around the corner and SD being 576 lines, I wouldn't be touching a 480-line plasma with a bargepole though...

Can't say which is better, PVR or HD STB, I have both and would not like to be without either. Having said that I think the 576 vs 480 line argument is a little misleading.

576i= 288x2(frames) lines
480p = 480 lines

2 Frames of 288 IMO does not provide the same resolution as 1 x 480 lines
In reality you are only getting 288 lines at one time, but blended to create 576 lines.

Again, IMO, the blending of 2 frames of 288 lines is not as effective in reproducing resolution as the straighout 480 lines; and that is generally why HD looks better on a 480 line plasma.

fusion

out of the two, which would be best output on a SD or HD based plasma?

1080i
or
720p

im thinking the 720p

I find them pretty much the same PQ on a SD plasma.

All the same other's have posted that 720p is not a standard resolution, and that some panels have difficulty accepting that input resolution - I personally get an occasional flicker at the bottom of the panel on 720p.

fusion

thanks for the reply!

my HD STB outputs 720p and 1080i perfect via DVI...but i dont notice the difference..might stick to 1080i because the channels list can be easier read with this res

Fusion,
There is no confusion.
A PVR can record on its hard disk where as an STB of any type cannot record. If you use a videocassette to record the quality of the replay is considerably worse than from the PVR.

Secondly, since the program is identical on HD and SD channels there is no point in getting an HD box. Otherwise the stations are upconverting the signal for you to downconvert it again. What was the point except that the picture quality will have more artifacts.

Simple solution buy a SD PVR and connect it using with one of the following
HDMI or DVI alternatively component.

AlanH

SD boxes don't have DVI or HDMI connections, as far as I'm aware.

You might consider the Topfield TF4400PVRt which has appeared on their site. Check out the price which should be considerably lower than their other models.
http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtop...9592entry299592

Forgive me but can HD broadcast to a 480 display ? I was under the impression that 480 was a SD panel.

My brother reckons it's easier to produce good pictures with Interlacing than with Progressive scan thats why it's so popular as a broadcast format.

I can input a 1080i image to my SD TEAC and it shows up on the plasma. I think the plasma scalar convert it to display on the SD plasma.

Umm some of you guys say that HD channels are exactly the same as the SD channels.

What about those HD loops that channel 7 broadcasts in the arvo that are usually shown in shops? Are those channels also have an SD channel?

Those channels show true HiDef pictures. If the networks actually broadcast HiDef like that then I'm guessing the SD versus HD debate would be pretty much settled. As you say these 'channels' are basically designed to run on store TVs so people could see true hidef in action (given none of the stations actually broadcast HD all that much). Also used to impress friends once or twice when you get the unit home

Note, HD is obviously better than SD - don't think anyone really disputes that. The main question is by how much and is it worth paying 3 times the price for? That's basically down to individual taste. The four main factors in the how much better is

1) A tiny amount of stuff is broadcast and shown in true glorious HiDef.
2) The networks definition of what constitutes HD is generally pretty low.
3) Much stuff was never filmed in HD so the networks simply 'upscale' a SD image.
4) People can use a HD STB on a SD TV.

They're probably in order of best picture improvement (over SD) - ie 1 gives a major improvement, 2 is pretty damn good, 3 noticible but much less and 4 maybe a 10-20% improvement? For many people items broadcast as 3 and 4 are indistinguishable to SD.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

When do you think that HD on FTA will become a standard?

Interesting question and I'd be interested in what others thought. In a way HD is as 'standard' as its likely to get. All SD broadcasts are parallel broadcast in some manner of HD. Obviously older programs can only be enhanced so much but more and more new programs are being shot in HD - In the US they had a much bigger incentive to jump to HD as their standard analogue broadcasts are significantly poorer than our analogue ones.

If you're asking when the majority of Ozzies will own HD sets etc. then I suspect that is a fair way away. Most people are quite content with simple big screen TVs and have no real interest in paying any sort of premium for ultra high resolution. I will happen over time but given how few people have even gone SD digital to date I don't see more than 20% of the population going HD digital for some years yet. That said, I would anticipate HD prices to continue falling and perhaps start stabalising in the next 1-2 years.

Personally I'm rather pessemistic on FTA of any format surviving as we know it today. Increasingly networks and viewers are waging a battle. In the end I suspect we will be migrated to some form of PAYTV model (with ads anyhow) and FTA will be relegated to national sporting events and showing repeats of old shows. But that's hopefully still a while away.

Note all this is just speculation and given the government/network relationship and the governments atrotious handling of digital TV to date almost anything could happen in the years to come.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

And it's no wonder people aren't impressed by HD... they're looking at BOBBED 576p at the shops!

Now if they had true HD (that is 1080i or 720p) video running on true HD displays (that is 1080i or 720p), then it wouldn't be as bad, but the Channel 7 loop is the worst loop to go by for judging a display's capabilities.

It would be nice to view proper HD broadcast i.e. 1080i or 720p but the mums & dads will think very long and very hard before paying the asking price of more than $4000 for such displays. In other words the average (majority) Joes or Janes aren't going to be able to afford these.

But at least it will give them something to look forward to, so they know there's something bigger and better than what they currently have. It'll certainly give them a push in the right direction, and make them realise that a home theatre is not all about a big screen.

Yeah and keep up with the Jones...LOL

Sorry couldn't resist that...

I think most people would balk at paying more than $2000 for a TV. If they can get a SD plasma (42') they probably would be satisfied. Then there's the argument that at 3m viewing distance, you would be hard pressed to justify paying 100% more for a slight increase in PQ.

I'm not so sure they won't , 1 retailer I spoke to said they are selling more HD ready panels than anything else atm the only thing slowing them down is the unavailability of integerated HD with the current panels.
Sure SD is fine for now but if a lot of people are like me and can see that it is a lower grade option I think they will bite the bullet and get the unit that will serve them for next 10 yrs or so.

Remember a lot of people will buy a unit that does everything in one so to speak so they don't have to worry about cabling.
Also there are a lot of people savvy enough to realise that at some point the HD will become more readily available.

Another point is people have access to more and easier finance packaging with the advent of NO INTEREST loans and INTEREST FREE periods also many people have LINES OF CREDIT on their mortgages . If you add their more expensive cousins Mr Mastercard and Miss Visa and estranged relos the AMEX'S, peoples ability to procure new technology has never been easier.

Whilst SD may be a suitable option for now, in the future HD will be the way to go.
I for one don't want to be watching a sporting event and see a caption on screen stating " NOW AVAILABLE IN WIDESCREEN HIGH DEFINITION " and not be able to view it because I skimped a few hundred dollars and got a 852 x 480 panel.

cheers

Mate, its NOT a few hundred dollars. Infact, its around $2000 difference between an SD and HD panel. Besides, the current so called, "HD" panels on the market are not TRUE HD. Therefore the HD panel may not be able to reap the full potential of true HD in the future anyway. So, in my opinion, buy a cheap $2k SD plasma now and wait till the TRUE HD panels come out at an affordable price, and then you take the dive.

Totally agree with you, kluc.

Comapare a SD Pana with a HD Pana apples with apples.

Street Prices seperate these by around 1k $2.6 as opposed to $3.6 for the Hd Pana.
Or the new Teac HD for under 2k

Pixels arn't going to get any smaller in the plasma panel so you arn't going to get 1080p unless you go to bigger panels 60" or bigger if your waiting for ultra high definition which will be probably 10 yrs away before we see this a reality.

HD is here on FTA and DVD and Foxtel have announced that they will be moving to HD in 2 yrs. As time moves along there will be more and more HD content, at exactly what point should SD owners junk their perfectly good SD panels in favour of a HD one ?

So why buy a panel that won't display 1080i or 720p ?

I thought about buying a SD panel then realised in 2 yrs time I'd have to Junk it to buy another panel ?

What is TRUE HD ? will that be the next BIG THING when we are all watching HD. I can see it now a marketers dream, just laying on the guilt get your TRUE HD WIDESCREEN TV NOW .

It will be many years before 1080p becomes a commercially viable reality for the masses, 1080i and 720p is here now and taking off .

If price is an issue or you just want a big screen Tv get SD if you want a future proof panel get HD with at at least 1 HDMI inputs


cheers

[quote=alanh,Nov 23 2005, 07:07 PM]Fusion,
There is no confusion.
"A PVR can record on its hard disk where as an STB of any type cannot record. If you use a videocassette to record the quality of the replay is considerably worse than from the PVR."

Seems to be some "confusion" as I never said a VCR PQ was better than a PVR...


[quote=alanh,Nov 23 2005, 07:07 PM]
"Secondly, since the program is identical on HD and SD channels there is no point in getting an HD box. Otherwise the stations are upconverting the signal for you to downconvert it again. What was the point except that the picture quality will have more artifacts."

The stations are not up-converting it if the picture is in HD to begin with........and there are a number of programs in HD (or rather ED!)




[quote=Enforcer,Nov 24 2005, 02:00 PM]"Forgive me but can HD broadcast to a 480 display ? I was under the impression that 480 was a SD panel."

Many SD plasma's will accept the higher definition signal, generally reproducing an improved SD PQ........


[quote=Enforcer,Nov 24 2005, 02:00 PM]
"My brother reckons it's easier to produce good pictures with Interlacing than with Progressive scan thats why it's so popular as a broadcast format."

There may be some odd line rate which is better interlaced that progressive, but at the same line rate progressive will usually produce a better PQ.

PLEASE, end a quote with [/quote]