I have a Panasonic TV model no. TX-43P250H (109cm) thinking of buying a dvd recorder.

Is there a much difference in picture quality between a dvd recorder and the old VCR?

Hello Jan45,

Quick answer is YES.

...But my recommendation would be to get a PVR (recording STB).

I recently purchased an LG 42" Plasma and it really shows up the poorer quality recording from my DVD recorder (JVC DR-M10).

There are a number of points to consider for a DVD recorder:
- The in-built tuner in these units (dvd recorders) are analogue so PQ is down compared to STB.
- You are limited to the size of the disc (unless its a HDD and DVD unit) for recording
- Recordings are not in wide screen

You can improve the performance somewhat by connecting a STB up to the DVD recorder, however the quality is still not as good as what you'd get from a PVR STB. AND you have to set two timers (STB and DVD) for any timer recordings (providing your STB supports timer mode).

A PVR STB should have a much better PQ, longer recording time, and with some units the ability to upload recordings to PC for storage / transfer.

Hope that helps.

Cheers,
David.

It's chalk and cheese. - as long as you dont want to record anything over 2 hours long.

BUT, before you rush out and spend all your money ask yourself what you use the VCR for because a DVD recorder is not a direct replacement for a VCR.

Consider these:

I use the VCR to play rented tapes - You need a DVD player

I use the the VCR to record my favorite TV program, watch it and record back over it again - You need PVR (Digital Set Top Box with Hard Drive)

I want to archive home made recordings from my video camera or PVR or record direct to DVD (2 hrs) from my STB - You need a DVD recorder.

Best of luck,
Dik

I dont' understand why people are buying DVD recorders as they only record analogue ... which isn't very good at all in the first place ... then you have a big tv that'll show up just how really pixellated it is ... and they cost so much money as well ...

it is however just a very easy and no hassle why of doing it ... but very limited in what it can do ...

but for the same price or less .. around $500, you can build a pretty basic HTPC (HomeTheatherPC) box that will have a HDTV tuner and a big hard drive in it so you can watch and record what ever in it and a DVD burner (can get a dual layer these days for about $80!!) ...

the advantages are that it's fully upgradable, you can watch all your downloaded tv-programs/movies from bit-torrent sites, play any kind of media, play games and music through one unit ... HDTV tuner cards usually come with programs that let you set recording times, etc ... and let you convert/compress files to how ever you like ...

that's just my 2 cents ... just due to how cheap computers are these days... it just does alot more for your money ... with way better PQ than a analogue DVD recorder .. .. especially ones without a hard drive is just dumb ...

can have a look through these sites about HTPCs .. there're some very nice professional looking hi-fi cases available as well ...
http://www.htpc-gear.com/
http://www.hometheatrepc.com.au/default.php

another thing great about having a HTPC is that if you get a firewire card, which is pretty standard or very cheap to get ... you can also capture all your home videos, edit them and burn them straight onto DVD ... easy

Thanks for the info
I had a look at the HomeTheatrePc sites - interesting idea, but have no idea about how to build one.

The dvd recorder I was thinking of buying would have a hard drive so plenty of room for recordings. Also I would be recording through the STB not analogue channels. I have done this with my VCR and don't need a timer on the STB just leave it switched on.
I realize PVR would be better, however I already have a STB and with a PVR you can't record onto disc to keep without transferring to comp. doing something with the file then burning to DVD, so I would have to buy a DVD burner for my computer as well.
Then to watch a DVD disc I have to plug my comp in (from another room)
So think I will still get the DVD/HDD recorder.
Thanks again for all your thoughts

Jan

Coz they work and you don't need a MCSE qualification to build and drive one!
RGB or component DVD recording is nearly identical to the orginal (SD) broadcast.

Agreed, absolutely. After spending $250 and 4 days trying to produce a DVD on my PC I still couldn't get a satisfactory result.

$299 on a DVD recorder (with only s-video / composite input) and I was making great looking DVDs within minutes. Now all my VHS home movies are transfered to DVD.

Best of luck,
Dik

of course this only works if you are home and only recording one channel.

If you happen to be out/asleep and what to record more then show on different channels, then that STB better have a timer.

This was one of the reasons why I get a PVR (Toppy), the STB that I started with then went to another TV.

Also, while Dik had problems making a DVD-video on a PC, it only took me around a couple hours or so the first time and most of that was spent transferring the file from the toppy to the PC (while doing other stuff) a bit of processing and burning.

Still, at the end of the day, buy what works for you and suits your needs/budget.

Spot on delbz..this is what i use & have no problems that are so inherent with PVRs....the PQ, sound etc is virtually as recorded from the STB....most of the better STBs do have a timer (Toppy SD Box), but should check if you need it for this purpose.

PCs nowadays are all plug and play really .. and not all that difficult to set up at all .. windows XP practically installs itself and recognises everything you plug into it ...

it was just an alternative suggestion which I think has alot more flexibility and customisation ... which probably cost alot less if you can build it yourself.

let me list some things I can do with my HTPC through my plasma ... play any kind of media format, play exellent high res games, use it as a music dukebox through my amp, surf the net, photo album slideshow, .. and even use it as a work monitor (as I"m a 3D animator) ...

it's just a really good thing to consider ...

I agree it might take abit of fiddling to set up the first time.. but when you understand it, it's very easy and straightforward ... and that everythign is digital without having to go through any kind of analogue cables, etc ...

And even SVideo recording, while not as good as the original SD broadcast, is still way better than VHS.

Hey Joey, I understand - I've been there. It's just that HTPC's are still for us geeks, not the mass consumer market - yet.

Editing video on a PC is an absolute nightmare, it usually takes me a good 10 hours or more just to get one hour of video off my camcorder and onto a dvd with basic chapters etc. And i'm a geek, there is no way anyone with basic computer knowledge could even begin to create dvds or edit video on a PC. The software is often buggy as hell and audio video sync issues are rampant, and i've tried just about every popular software program for doing this stuff. Mind you i haven't done it for 6 months or so now so maybe its improved.

Just an opinion from an owner of a HDSTB, PVR, DVD recorder and aborted attempt at PC recording of DVD, who could record to the DVD from the STB if he wanted to.

The main inherrent problem with PVRs is people wanting them to do things they were never meant to do in the first place. In nearly 18 months of owning a Strong 5390 the only "faults" have been me setting the wrong recoding times, and you are more likely to get it wrong trying to syncronise a STB & DVDR.

My preference is to record to the PVR first, then do the same feed to the DVDR as you would have done from the STB in the first place. Reasons?
1. You don't have to be there to keep feeding in a new DVD every 2 hours, just set and forget for 25++ hours of recording (depending on HDD size).
2. You can set recording times to allow for station broadcast time adjustments, then top & tail the recording and edit out ads before burning.
3. You can choose not to record to DVD if the program isn't shown or you change your mind.
4. You can use regular DVDs instead of the more expensive rewrites (or throwing out regulars that are an unwanted recording), because you know what you record is what you want to keep.

Best of luck,
Dik

I've done heaps using mainly freeware software for a long time. I was doing SVCD's before DVD burners were common and blanks for expensive.

For basic cut AVI editing, can't beat virtualdub especially the virtualdub mod with avisythn. That's if you want high level of control. Easier method is to convert it to MPEG2 and edit with Cuttermaran, then drop resultant edit into your favourite DVD authoring app. TMPG DVD Author is pretty cheap and damn easy. Can do moving menus easily as well.

I guess there must be different levels of Geekdom.....

I recorded the footy last night onto PVR (for my son who is OS and missing it) then across to the PC in real time, as well as recording Roy and HG onto PC (FM card). I dropped the resultant MPG into TMPGEnc, cut out adverts and topped and tailed to fit perfectly on 1 DVD, set menus at advert cuts and burned to DVD - total time about 45 mins (I also edited the .WAV file to fit on 2 CDs).

I must be missing something somewhere as I never have audio/video sync problems, don't need to go near all that demux/remux stuff and am actually teaching "how-to's" at TAFE with great success for non-geeks and total beginners alike. It really isn't that hard.

Capture source, edit, create menu structure, output, burn!

Try TMPGEnc Author 1.6 - brilliant, simple, foolproof.

Regards

David.

From an MCSE geek that has been there - The HDD/DVD Recorder can be driven by my wife - TMPGEnc and the like is only for the geeks that have nothing better to do than sitting in front of their PC screens for hours on end.

It's just not easy "consumerized" technology like a DVD recorder.

HDD/Dvd recorder's serve a purpose. Sure, they're not as powerful as a PC solution, but I agree - the quality of set-top box output (even the dodgytec) recorded in a high quality mode is to me close enough to the SD source.

My girlfriend can and will use each appliance - they are designed for CONSUMERS! It took me 10 minutes to hook up and install, and it takes a couple of button presses to record, and 5 minutes to edit. (I use the pioneer 520 HDD/recorder, which is better setup most for editing).

45 minutes is more time than I'm prepared to spend on casual recording any more.

Have I thrown away the digital TV card and uninstalled videoredo and tmpgenc dvd author? No. Do I still dream of the Toppy/Foxtel IQ combo? Hell Yes! But the HDD/DVD recorder records from any source (Foxtel included) and lets me rapidly get recordings to DVD. There are advantages, at least to me.

What are the post editing features like on a DVD/HDD recorder? Can you edit the ads out fairly accurately?

Yes.

Nice, didn't realise.

If I might clarify a few points:

Where I come from 1 hour is 60 mins., therefore 45 mins. is actually less than 1 hour - not "hours on end"!

The ACTUAL time spent capturing, editing, authoring and burning 3 hours of TV is as follows:

Capture - launch capture software, switch to S-Video input, click Record - 10 seconds. I didn't watch the footy, watched Spooks Series 3 on DVD instead.

Edit - Launch TMPGEnc, load MPG files (2), top and tail, remove adverts - 10 minutes.

Menus - Done automatically at advert. cuts - 0 minutes.

Output - Click Output button - 1 second. Do something useful while output is being created, like eat breakfast. DON'T sit in front of screen watching blue bar creep across!

Burn - Launch software, choose Burn DVD files, drag output files into VIDEO_TS folder, insert blank, click Burn - 15 seconds. As above, do something useful for 15 minutes, like have a shower, get ready for work etc.

Remove burnt DVD from PC, put in case - 10 seconds.

Done. Total time actually at the PC = 10 minutes 36 seconds approx. (probably a bit less), not exactly "hours on end".

Note: I edited the 2 1/2 hour WAV file of Roy and HG down to 2 X 79 minute files whilst the DVD was burning (took about 30 seconds in WaveLab) then burnt the 2 CDs when the DVD was done - total time about 8 minutes, actual time at PC - about 1 minute.

The 3 discs are now on their way to Canada to an eagerly awaiting son!

You do not have to be a geek to do this stuff. My total newbie students at TAFE can do this (demonstrated to me in class) after 1 or 2 X 3 hour lessons, the more savvy ones do it after 1 walk through.

However, having said this I do agree that, despite all their limitations (analogue only etc.) there is still a place for DVD recorders ie. for those without a PC or a PVR or both.

Cheers.

David.

just let me add a little with video editing ...

I don't have a powerful PC .. just a 3 year old P4 2.4 with a firefire card (nothing else really special) ...

for faultless video editing, I capture and edit all my video with Adobe Premiere ... save it out as AVIs and just burn it with DVD Santa which just does all the chapters for you ... that's only if you don't want all the menus and stuff that takes a long time to do ... DVD Santa is the easiest and most reliable program I"ve ever used .... it will burn any sort of files (AVI, Divx,xvid, VOB,etc) and make them into a DVD format disc that will play on any player .. .. it really doesn't take a long time if you just want to capture and back it up ...

and I sure understand that most people wouldn't have a clue about computers and will definitely be a very steep learning curve at the beginning about HTPCs ... I've been through all that and now it's just alot of fun when everythign works and computer parts are so cheap.

Editing programs vary, but the one on the Pioneer (530H or 730H) is simple. It has a function "Divide" which simply divides the recording into two parts. You then quickly erase the bits you do not want.

e.g. Ad ... program .... Ad.... program ....

You divide at the start of the program & then erase the fisrt bit with the ads. This then leaves you with

program ..... Ad ..... program

Then divide at the end of the first program segment to give

program (separated file) + Ad ..... program (second file)

Take the second file & divide it to separate out the Ad bit to erase ...

So, after eliminating all the ads you have

program (file 1), program (file 2) , .....

Then use the "combine" function to join them up again -> one ad free file.

This is then recorded onto a DVD.

The beauty of the Pioneer is if this is under 1hour 5 minutes, it will do a fast copy in about 8 minutes. If over, say 90 minutes use the "Optimise" and it will fill the whole disc with that program but will take the full 90 minutes to do it.

Hope the editing description above does not sound complicated because in practice it is very fast & simple. The Pioneer has a number of high speed fast forward options which make zipping through the recorded program easy.

Note that not all editing programs are the same. Other posters might have recommendations for other DVD-Rs but the Pioneer is the only one I'm familiar with. A great recorder which I have used for months now (about 200 DVDs cut) without a hitch. I'm a happy camper :-)

To answer an earlier query about why anyone would want a DVD-R at all: A valid question and the answer is you only want one to archive recordings to look at again at your leisure. Otherwise a PVR makes more sense for time shifting.

John

I have a Pioneer DVR-520H-s HDD/DVD recorder. It is excellent at frame accurate editing. It is a fairly easy matter to edit out adverts (once you have located them using FF and REW). I mainly use SP which gives 2 hours onto a DVD-R. The device will work with DVD-R, +r, +RW, -RW discs. I use Ritek A+ discs from the Disc Shop for around 70c each (50 spindle).

I have found the image quality, when recorded from good source material, to be very close to the original SD broadcast, despite having been re-encoded to MPEG2 from analogue. Most recordings are watched and then deleted, a few good ones recorded to DVD for sharing with friends. I do not intend building up a 5,000 DVD collection however, I would never have the time to watch them. The ability to record from home camcorder directly to DVD in real time is a great plus and one of the reasons I purchased the unit.

Sure I have a computer with sophisticated digital video editing software and firewire in/out which I use for my multimedia work, but I prefer watching and timeshifting my digital TV in the living room, not the office.

======
Pioneer DVR-520H-s 80GbHDD/DVD recorder : NextWave TDR-3190 SD STB : Sony KD-32DX51 76cm CRT digital receiver : Sony STR-D515 surround sound system : Wharfedale CRS5 speakers

Sorry, I'm just a bit behind - do you take s-video out from your PVR and capture it via an analog card to PC, re-encoding to mpeg2 at capture, then edit?

I had it into my head you were trying to do something truly geekified (ie transport stream mpeg2 to PC, edited and refashioned into dvd video). The latter is where the sync etc issues arise - the dvb-t TS has a way to go to become dvd-compliant.

I'm with Steve on all this. Using s-video out of the decoders (Austar, PVR or whatever) the recorded quality = broadcast IMO, using the "fine" recording option of the Pioneer. 90 minute or less recordings using "optimise" are also VERY close to the original. Note we are projecting onlo a 96" screen so deficiencies are magnified. There is not much SD broadcast material quality warranting messing around with a computer as far as I'm concerned.

Yes it goes through an analog conversion doing this but, as I posted recently, I fear we sometimes get carried away by the "degradation" of using an intermediate analog stage of conversion.

It is just so much more convenient to have the recorder alongside the other gerar for burning & playing.

John

If you Demux it through ProjectX you're fine. It will correct any errors in your TS so the sync remains correct. Apparently it's less of an issue the better your reception is.

So to clarify, dvb-t TS handles the sync fine the problem is introduced when it is demuxed to standard PC mpegs. ProjectX handles this perfectly.

Rob

To clarify, I was referring to davidl's statement that he had no sync issues, and didn't remux, which is not baffling if he is capturing via analog rather than stream processing.

Well all I can add is I have actually tried both methods (PC and DVD Recorder appliance ) and it's clear to me which way is the more satisfying "user experience".

Well, here's my dilemma, and I apologise if this is a double post but I have been discussing this with davidl in another thread, but it is relevant here.

I tried to do the PC thing, and had major hassles with pixilation at 720x576 resolution, settled on 640x480, then audio sync was out by up to 2 seconds at the end of a 2 hour recording.

Spat the dummy and bought a stand alone DVD recorder for instant satisfaction.

Anyhow after prompting by davidl, I did some more research and here's the result:

The capture box I use to convert s-video or composite to USB is a V-Gear Pocket DVD, bundled with Power Director Pro, and Power Producer.

I was sold it as suitable for both my desktop and laptop PCs with a minimum specification of PIII 1.0GHZ, which just happens to be my laptop spec.

BUT, checking out the V-Gear web site they list P4 2.4 GHz minimum for real time MPEG2 recording!

So, even my P4 1.7 GHz desktop doesn't meet the spec.

So, now after spending over $200 to upgrade to PC DVD burning capability I need a new PC!

And that's not a cheap fix.

The $299 Liteon stand alone DVD recorder looks like better & better value all the time.

Best of luck,
Dik

No argument with you about this. There is a lot of satisfaction to be gained by achieving results from the computer. Conversely, they can be extremely frustrating toys to those of us who are only at medium level computer literacy.

Bottom line, I guess you can sometimes get better video results with a computer and will always get better audio results as you preserve DD 5.1.

John

I guess 'PC thing' must mean a few different things. Since I just transfer the toppy recording over USB to the PC and then projectx and all that, pixilation and audio sync out is just not possible. At least I've never had any such problem and I've been doing that at least 4 times a week since I got the toppy

Yep, thats's it. I also capture direct to the PC via HD-DTV card then edit - same process, same 10 seconds!!

i'm not a computer geek, and i don't even want to know what demux/remux is. but i can and do use my hdtv pc card to record tv and then record to dvd.

the beauty of it it, if you don't want the source edited at all and are content to fast forward through ads as i am (unless i want to keep the recording to posterity), i just set the timer, tell it to record direct to dvd, and i've got a dvd ready to watch with about 2 minutes of my own input.

it is a truly economical option to a stand alone unit. mind you, once they are more affordable, i'll be buying one because of the ability to time shift. yes you can do this with a pc card, but i want to watch tv on my couch, not from my computer chair.

Actually my computer chair is heaps more comfortable than my lounge, which is an ageing futon!

As my PC, TV and Hi-Fi are all interlinked I can simply roll the chair in front of whichever - just kidding, though I could.

Just think, add 1 more step with 10 minutes work and NO MORE ADS!

David.

I haven't checked out your discussion elsewhere, but there's a sacrifice to be made in capturing directly to mpeg2 - and that quality sacrifice largely depends on the encoder and it's settings.

If you're using a software encoder, it is demanding on cpu, and you will stuggle to get a high-quality result realtime with your specs. Of course, you can use HQ 2-pass VBR from a captured less compressed AVI........ if you have the space, and leave it to run o/n.

I find the results from hardware mpeg2 encoding from the dvd-recorder to be fine.

Despite adequate specs (Athlon 2.8 equiv, 1gb ram) I would be dubious about using it to capture to mpeg2 on any sort of regular basis not because it can't, but because I like to use it for computing...... and I would be concerned about tieing it up on a demanding task for long periods when I want to use it for other things. Could I play around in photoshop and flash at the same time as capture? Doubt it. Maybe with the next upgrade :ph34r:

In the end, you can use a pc for a whole heap of tasks, including pvr, media player, alarm clock, room heater, firewall, telephone. I'm quite happy to use a dedicated design for some of these.

Vidiot,
I don't consider myself a computer geek, but most people I know think I know much more about PCs than they do.

BUT, with no offence meant, can you put that in English please! It may well be a useful tip, but I haven't got a clue what you are saying.

Thanks,
Dik

First of all, I have no experience with your v-gear pocket dvd device, and I'm not sure what capture options it offers. I can't claim to be an expert - I've just stuffed around with this for a while.

I guess we've been talking about taking an mpeg2 source (whether a dvb-t transport stream, or analog capture by PC or set-top recorder) and editing it /sticking it on a dvd. And the focus has been quality and convenience/ease of use.

Many capture devices offer you a selection of codecs and quality options for the capture process. In general capturing to less compressed dv avi is much less demanding to your cpu - though the bit rate and file sizes (5min/gigabyte) can push the limits on hard drive access. You may be able to do this bit with windows movie maker or other freeware (avid).

These file formats/codecs are in many ways more appropriate for editing/authoring - less lossy to start with, more easy to manipulate and apply effects with garden variety video editing programs. MPEG2 is a series of GOPs (groups of pictures) based around an index frame.

Once your edit is final you can transcode into the format of your choice - in this case mpeg2. Any decent encoder (TMPGEnc, Canopus Procoder) offers a range of options including the a quality mode, which tells it how much time to put into encoding, and a bit rate, which can be constant (CBR) or variable (VBR).

For consumers the best quality is usually gained by allowing the encoder 2 passes over the material to determine how to vary the bite rate - allowing more bits for scenes that have more detail/change, and less in others. This is 2-pass VBR.

You should be able to get better quality results through this process. Whether the results are sufficiently noticeable to go for depends on your situation. And convenience/ease of use goes out of the window.

Of course, to chuck off a regular copies of programming for one-off viewing this way is completely over the top, and it is the opposite of what this thread is about.

Thanks Vidiot,
And I think you have hit the nail on the head here, how to actually get the video into the PC in the first place. PCs are great for editing and authoring your own DVDs, but not very good recorders.

Actually getting the source you want to back up, whether that's the output from a STB, VHS, Video8, or even Beta and turning it into MPEG2 at 720x576, seems to need a lot of PC GRUNT.

And I suppose those with the latest and greatest PC don't even notice a problem. They record OK and don't take 10 hours to process and burn the final result.

But, my for me the answer has been use a stand alone DVD recorder, and if I want to do further editing burn to DVDRW and bring that to the PC as my capture method.

So, to get right back to the original topic, DVD recorders do a fine job, but be wary of PC based solutions for recording unless you have all the latest gear or you are ready to do a lot of trial and error upgrading, it may cost more than you budgeted.

Best of luck,
Dik

Hi,

Having read through all of this thread I just wanted to clarify something. I just bought a Digicrystal SD PVR and will be using it in place of my existing STB/VCR to make recordings. I am thinking however, what if I record something worth keeping? Am I right in saying connecting an output from the PVR to a stand alone DVD recorder and simply pressing play on the PVR and record on the DVD recorder, I will be able to copy a recording from PVR to a DVD?

Yep. Not that hard, huh!

Yes, it is as easy as that BUT I suggest you purchase a DVD-R with a hard drive so you can edit out the junk. As I've posted here often, the Pioneer 520H or 72H are great units - easy to use, great quality etc.

Also, if you suspect in advance a program might be something you would like to archive, turn the hard drive off in the PVR and record direct to the hard drive of the DVD-R (in affect meaning you use the PVR as a STB). That way you have it ready to edit & burn your DVD without having to copy the recording across from one hard drive to another.

It can be great fun!!!

John

So all the arguments against buying DVD recorders because they only record analogue TV rather than digital TV can be ignored as you can take the output (SD/HD) from your STB or PVR and record it onto DVD and all the arguments for them, such as being sub $300, easy to use etc. suddenly start to make sense!

Time to start thinking about Plan C, as Plan A and Plan B are starting to s**t me at the moment.

Cheers

David.

Theoretically, piping digital audio & video into a computer will yield a DVD equivalent to the original recording on HD. Attracted by this I looked at setting up a PC for this purpose. However, remembering the complexities of the PC and the problems that can arise unless you are highly computer literate (which I'm not), I decided to abandon this path & go for a commercial unit - eventually choosing the Pioneer after researching them on the net.

Bottom line is that results can be excellent. Maybe that compares to superb via a PC (which some people find fun to use because they know what they are doing) BUT IMO the broadcast quality of programs (digital FTA & satellite) is such that not many programs will come out differently despite the "horrifying" intermediate analog conversions. And having a DVD-R in among the other audio & video components is just so much more convenient for me. I can go away and have a DVD burning for an hour or so without tying up this computer:)

John

The argument against DVD recorders at the moment is not so much about not being able to record a DVD so much as not being very good at set and forget digital recording.

If you want to set up, say, a daily recording of Days of Our Lives, so you can catch up on all the episodes when you get home from holidays, a DVD recorder just doesn't cut it. GET A PVR.

But once you have a recording on PVR, you can play back and record to DVD at your leisure.

So, one of each is definately the go, and with prices under $300 each, it is getting very affordable.

Maybe one day they will both be in the same box.

Best of luck,
Dik

Fully agree. A PVR is the best way of handling FTA. DVD-Rs are only really useful if you want to archive material.

However Austar/Foxtel cannot be time shifted into any PVR because of a lack of inputs so feeding those programs into the hard drive of a DVD-R is another option to avoid using tape.

I understand Foxtel already have a PVR available (at unreasonable cost - you pay but still do not own it) and Austar will follow in the 4th quarter. However a techo informed me that those PVRs are unreliable so I'm not holding my breath. On a limited budget I'd put money into a DVD-R with hard drive rather than the Austar/Foxtel unit if that techo report is correct :ph34r: .

John