Interesting to see how how this device fits programming onto DVDs. It must actually recompress in the digital domain for LP modes.


http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/11546


Available in May for about £400, Philips has announced a new recorder that can capture OTA programming and sports a nice HDMI (High Definition Multimedia Interface) for a clean install. In case you don't know already, the HDMI is like a digital video interface with the capability of carrying the audio as well. It does have a SCART hookup too though.





Customer Benefits of HDMI
100% Digital

* No Compression, no conversion
* Pure digital picture and sound direct from the source (as it was meant to be seen and heard)
* Video and Audio signal remains digital from output device to display device
* Best quality sound and picture
* Bandwidth to spare for HDTV
* 1080p capable and beyond
* Over two times 1080i bandwidth
* Includes YUV color space support


Only one cable required

* All HD video and audio in one cable
* Replaces up to 8 audio and 5 video cables
* Reduced Wiring Complexity


Automatic Format Intelligence*

* TV & AV Receivers can adjust without consumer intervention
* Video source receives the display's supported video formats, and outputs the optimal audio & video format
* Display regularly receives video format & aspect ratio from sources


Consumer Electronics Control*

* Entire home theater controlled from a single remote
* Enables high-level functions such as "one-touch play"

The above benefits of HDMI was taken from the HDMI.org site. Of course, HDMI has a another side that can along with high-bandwidth digital-content protection or HDCP, be used for the protection of digital content. A specification developed by Intel, it will surely come into play as we begin to receive very high quality content over the airwaves. What the end result will be is anyones guess, but it's coming. HDCP encrypts the transmission of digital content between the video source, or transmitter, and in this case a set-top box and the monitor or television. HDCP is not designed to prevent copying or recording of digital content but to protect the integrity of content as it is being transmitted. You can read more about it here at the HCDP LLC website, they have all the specs.

You may say who in the heck want's that? I have to say that although I can't see the future and what controls we will be saddled with, this HDMI or even the older Digital Video or DVI interface is sweet. Because it's handy in that it can be used to sense the signal and make proper adjustments to your TV with the right equipment. This is what they're calling Automatic Format Intelligence. For instance, using the DVI interface at home on my setup, It "knows" that I want all 4:3 programming to be displayed in Zoom mode to fill my 16:9 screen. If I switch to a channel with letterbox programming - presto, it is out of zoom. Finally, if I stumble on a program in High Definition, the set displays it in 1080i rather than 480i without me having to flip the switch on my HD receiver! So, I am hooked on DVI at least.

Getting back to the Philips recorder, a Freeview, or free to view programming, (terrestrial digital) tuner is being added to this dual layer DVD+R/RW recorder. Apparently, this is a bit of an innovation for this type of hardware and if so, it will be quite popular. Couple that with the 5.1 audio recording capability, Guideplus programming guide and this box is pretty cool.

Those of you interested in this type recorder should make sure to visit our Stand Alone Devices & Home Entertainment Forum.

I'm not sure this can record the Digital signal onto DVD (it might but its not exactly spelled out in the release info) and the other capabilty to record analog to DVD is something I can't see in much detail on the article..
can someone convert this to english please...

Even if it could capture the MPEG2 stream as broadcast and record it to DVD, what would be the point? On a single-layered disc, recording channel 10, you'd only get maybe 90 minutes per disc. Not exactly useful.

To have any real benefit to the consumer, such a machine would need to recompress the video before recording it to DVD.

Of course, that compression, as speculated above, doesn't necessarily have to be in the analogue domain. A compressed domain transcoder would do the job nicely (a la DVD Shrink)...

LONG LIVE VHS…………and if you need or require higher quality use SVHS.

Recording to DVD isn’t something I would recommend to the average 80%-population. The electronics industry would be well advised to improve on the old tape formate for recording purpose and forget about DVD recording for the masses, regardless at what formate.

We on the other hand are fiddlers who can’t get enough innovation which put that sparkle into our eyes. I always sparkle after an hours burning if I produce a coaster. How much would I sparkle with a BlueRay coaster? (how long would it take to create a BlueRay coaster?)

I still think its a very usefull device, one that is most like a VCR for the average consumer. Like you mentioned, not spelled out in the press release, but It prolly would allow recompression in the digital domain, giving 2-3 hours per DVD in the more common LP modes. It does however support dual-layer burning if you can afford the discs and don't mind write once.

Could be good if offered with a HDD option. Trouble is in Australia, you want further support for High Definition!

Danny.

PS. Wolf, are you serious? DVHS has been a failure, if only because of zero marketing, and again, lack of integrated digital tuner.

On a DVD recorder? Not until Hi-Def disc formats appear.



It failed for one simple reason. It's a tape format.

In reference to tape recordings I would say that that seems to be the only way the average user is able to continue recording into the future. The reason is obvious if one considers the complexity and know-how required to record onto DVD with any success, as can be seen even here on this forum.

The suggestion that digital tape recording is a problem has to be dismissed if one considers that virtually every camcorder does it very successfully. It’s the DVD-mania that’s pushed and it seems to occupy even those who have trouble finding the on-switch. That’s why there is no demand for those recorders, again as can be seen how little demand there is for the PVR, in fact so little that the big companies can’t be bothered and leave those crumbs for outsiders like Topfield & Co. But that will change as soon as digital broadcast will make the VCR obsolete. That vacuum will then be filled with something that people can use without requiring a PhD. HDD or Tape, hardly any difference for those who aren’t interested in direct access, but it won’t be a DVD-recorder.

What about DVD-RW and DVD-RAM. These are alright as you can record over them, just like the humble old VHS

There's no complexity to it, as long as your not using a Shonko ™ recorder or something similar. I've seen the Panasonic and Pioneer recorders in action, and they're not only every bit as simple to use as a VCR, they also have the advantage of instant access to recorded programs. Panasonic's recorders even support G-code for easy programming.



D-VHS had a major problem with dropouts, according to reviews I've read.



The problem with the current available range of PVRs is, quite simply, they're not made by companies with the know-how to create clear, practical and user-friendly interfaces. They all have too many bugs to be attractive to the average consumer.

But imagine if, say, Sony did a PVR? With their skill at creating user interfaces, any child would be able to use it.

Or to put it another way, if Topfield or Strong or whoever created a VCR, it would be impossible to operate without a degree in applied science and would randomly chew tapes, stop recording or routinely crash, requiring a reboot

Well Kitten, the ‘complexity’ I’ve referred too is not so much how to push buttons but rather the limitations DVD’s have in comparison to that of a HDD or Tape. Dropouts, buffer overruns, and the quality of disks would create more problems than the former. If the finalising of a disk fails, the complete recording is gone. I still produce coasters and have to use a sacred philosophy, gained over years, how to hold may face to avoid DVD-problems on the PC. How many coasters have you produced lately? (It’s a bit like: “ Hi mate, how’s it hanging today?”)

The digital tape recording technology is all around us, starting at the professional studio market and at the domestic market in form of camcorders. All what’s missing is the public demand for a recorder using that formate.

This quote has been answered by you. However, I have to take exception to the belittling of the Topfield product which in my opinion is first class based on my experience over more than a year with two machines running 200Gig HDD’s.

Yep I can imagine a Sony PVR. A format that is proprietory to Sony and cannot be played on any other sort of player. Full Digital rights management meaning nobody could re copy the copy. A proprietory hard drive interface meaning any hard drive upgrade could only be performed by a Sony Authorised Service Centre at think of a price and triple it. An easy to read manual and a nice on screen menu system.

As to the child comment. My 11yo and 8 yo have no trouble whatsoever working our Topfield to record, timeshift or do all sorts of other things. I think the problem is that they didn't bother to read the manual.

Actually, I can't remember my last DVD coaster; since I got the Pioneer A06 burner, I haven't had a single one. The last coaster I got was when burning an audio CD in my old Ricoh CD burner, and that was because the blanks a friend brought around (Coles Supermarket brand!) were shoddy, Chinese-made rubbish.



As the success of DVD-Video (and CD before it) has shown, consumers prefer compact, durable, instant-access recording mediums. Tape is.. well, so 1960s

Tape makes sense for pro studios and camcorders, but not so much so for home recording.



But it's still plagued by bugs, and does not have what I'd call a particularly layman-friendly user interface. It's also ridiculously overpriced.

I wasn't belittling the Topfield, but rather pointing out that these "enthusiast" PVRs are not going to win over Joe Consumer any time soon...

- Anthony

Curse Sony, make some damn good gear but hate their insistance with proprietory formats! Then again they did finally give up on their atrac3 codec and include support for MP3. Still wouldn't mind seeing what they would come up with...

Curse Sony, make some damn good gear but hate their insistance with proprietory formats! Then again they did finally give up on their atrac3 codec and include support for MP3. Still wouldn't mind seeing what they would come up with...

They haven't given up on ATRAC in any of its forms; it's still used in all their Minidisc recorders, their CD Walkman products, and of course the new solid-state and hard disk-based Network Walkman range. They even allow file transfer from Minidisc to PC now, and provide software to convert ATRAC to PCM.

ATRAC's a much better codec than MP3, too...

One reason I don't really like DVHS - it's too tied with old VHS (big, bulky, inferior). I like camcorder tapes better because they don't have this tie. Maybe Sony could revive Betamax by introducing a digital variant?

Anyway, I hope the new Phillips recorders are good, because I wouldn't want one like the DVDR890 (not very intuitive interface, laser giving up).

I really have to dispute a quote like that. My Strong 5390 PVR is 200% easier to program a recording on than my Panasonic VCR and 500% easier to locate and replay the recording. And it never stops recording (unless the HDD runs out of space), crashes or requires a reboot. If it has any anoying features at all it's that the clock gets a couple of minutes out every few weeks.

Best of luck,
Dik

And then there was the 5290, which I had in mind when I made that post. It can fail to record completely, stop recording at the wrong time, etc etc etc. The same timer problems also affect its hard-disk-less cousin the 5200. Both those units had timer setups which made no sense to most "normal" people, too

Sure but if you've already got your CD collection on your pc as MP3 you don't want another lossy conversion to another format. And of course they still support ATRAC but now their players support MP3 (still crap support list) why would you convert your music to ATRAC when it won't work with a rival player? ATRAC<>Betamax

I don't believe it is overpriced at all. Here are some sums I did before buying my Toppy nearly a year ago

Windows XP Home edition $167
Memory PC3200 (DDR400) 256 Mb $83
Motherboard GigaByte 7N400-Pro2 nForce $190
Processor Athlon XP 2200+ 1.78GHz $125
Power Supply $58
Hard Drive 80Gb $135
Case $55
Infra-red mouse/remote $24
Ditigal Tunner cards X 2 $478
Total $1,315

And I bought my toppy for $1000 with $120Gb hard drive.
I don't have to build it.
I know it runs quitely.

BTW I also think the toppy has a great user interface. Bloody hell - I even find my wife has found out how to use it and I did not show her.

I will agree it is buggy and that is not the best situation that you have to rely on third party hacked up TAPs to fix the major bugs.

But there is no way the toppy is overpriced.

and you want to use Windows XP Home??

BTW I disagree with your comment about relying on "hacked up TAPS". They allow you to personalise your Toppy but they are not essential for its basic operation. I may be fortunate but I have not suffered from any problems that have not been my fault and I do not use any TAPS.

hornblower

I didn't bother with taps for a long time.

I believed (WRONGLY) a few years back that DVHS would be the way everyone moved to digital TV.

I thought we would simply go to the shop, and by a DVHS deck instead of a VHS deck.

The DVHS deck would receive digital TV with all the bells and whistles, record it to digital VHS, and output to my current analogue TV screen.

The advantages of this would've been
1) I wouldn't need a set top box
2) I could still play back my old VHS tapes
3) I could record a whole High Definition program on one tape.
4) In a few (!) years time when I get a HD widescreen television, my newer recordings would look great on it.
5) There is virtually NOTHING to learn. You've had VCRs before, and now you still do - just the quality jumped up with the switch to digital.

I still think that's got potential... but I believe it'll happen via DVD-recorders now (dual layer).
Greg

Unbelievable..... I can't recall how many messages I've read on here DEMANDING that companies bring out DVD recorders with digital tuners. Lots of people said they would never buy a DVD recorder unless it has a digital tuner. From what I read, all the answers lie in a DVD recorder with digital tuner.

Some guy finds one and announces it on here and all of a sudden everyone says it is the stupidest idea around. Will people never be satisfied?

As for the discussion of digital VHS, I have no idea what it is doing in this topic. It is completely off-topic. Is there a moderator who can delete them and start a new thread?

No I don't want to use Windows XP home it was just the OS I priced as starting point.

I too coped without TAPs for a while. But then I had one too many future timer bug incidents. It was then I decided I needed a TAP. The future timer bug is a major issue that detracts from the Toppy. I guess it is not really Topfields fault that the TV broadcasters stuff up the time for the Toppy. But they should really implement the TAP solution into the firmware anyway.

If they did then no one could say that the topfield is only for enthusastic geeks.

ttguy

This isn't a bug, but the bad time keeping under manual time is. That would be the neatest work around.

the problem remains that the manufacters have it bothways

there will always be people who wish to have the current available technology and will pay a premium for it
why bring out a digital tuner recorder when you can flog off a heap of set top + recorders, make some $$$$

then later when all the bugs are ironed out 1-2 yrs down the track bring out the digital tuner recorder ...... you get all the "new" customers + the "new technology" people as well