PIONEER 969AVI REVIEW (UK Model: 868AVI, US Model: 59AVI)

GENERAL

PRICE
Originally retailing for $2.5k; with street prices around $2k. Current street prices around $1.2k makes this quite a deal. In competition, probably the Denon 2200 and 2900 represents similar sort of deals.

edit: I must also mention that out of ALL the electronic good, where usually the industry standard is to double or tripple the prices in US; Pioneer is the first unique instance. The prices still going in US are just under $1k, which is not too dissimilar to the street prices in Oz. For once, I don't feel I am being ripped off ! Thank you Pioneer !


SPECIFICATION
From video point of view, there is 1xHDMI, and the usually other analog video connections including the Component connection. The HDMI output supports 480i/576i, 480p/576p, 720p and 1080i output resolution. Analog video outputs including Component don't upscale (due to legal reasons).

For audio there are 2xiLink and the usual analog outputs and also a separate 2 channel output (in some forums I have read that this two channel output offers superior SQ; but need to test that).

In comparison:
Denon 3910 also has a separate DVI output and a proprietary Denon-Link (or D-Link) output for audio. Upcoming Integra DPS 10.5 will also support 768p (some Plasma's native resolution). Momitsu can support custom resolutions and thus 1:1 pixel mapping.

NOTE:
Pioneer is one of the rare breed of players (apart from say Arcam DV79) that can pass 480i/576i over HDMI. This is perfect if it is to be mated to an external scaler like the Lumagen or the IScan. In contrast rest of the competition doesn't pass interlaced outputs over HDMI, thus forcing the deinterlacing in the DVD Player.

This is very important, because, something SDI-mods on say Denon 2900 costs in excess of $1k ! Thus having a HDMI connection that can pass 480i/576i and mating it to the newer scalers not only avoids SDI-mods (and thereby forging the warranties) but also reduces the total cost of this solution !

PACKAGING
Pioneer includes a HDMI cable, haven't tried it but it is a nice gesture; I am not aware of the Denons, etc. including any DVI or HDMI cable.

In addition, an iLink cable is also included.

COLOR
In Australia, there are lots of choices for colors, as long as it is Gold

WARRANTY
Pioneer comes with 3 year warranty, the same as Arcams. Denons on the other hand is 1 year for some and 2 for the others. Integra is 5 years.

HEAVY & SIZE
I won't called this category "build quality", as to me it implies reliability, which is not necessarily the case. Thus if you care about size and equipment being heavy, well Pioneer is about the same sizea and weight as Denon 2200 and 2910. Denon 2900/3900 are much more heavy and bigger in size. Arcams and Integra a tad smaller.

BUILD & RELIABILITY
Too soon to tell, obviously !

Reading around various forums though, it has had a trouble free life, and even after years of use (remember Pioneer was ahead of the competition in HDMI game), there have been no major reports of laser assembly failings etc.; which I have read on multiple occasions about other universal players (remember universal players have multiple laser assemblies).

USABILITY (MENU & REMOTE)
The menu structure is the best that I have seen; very logical. There is even a wizard that you can fire up which takes you through the settings (bit like some wizards on the PC), very advance. It also detects as and when you connect various cables and automatically brings up the required menus, when you turn the machine on; a bit like the plug-&-play concept on PCs.

In short I'd say the menu structure and various associated features with it is extremely user-friendly !

Remote is interesting. I have read various reviews and some people don't like it. I personally don't mind it at all. The remote is backlit. I like the feel of it in my hands. There is a jog-dial feature which is quite something, and I have never seen anything like it before. All buttons have nice feel, including the joystick in the middle. Compare to the competition, hated the feel of central buttons on the newer Denons, the older Denons were OK, the Arcam is not that great..... thus compare to the competion, Pioneer is quite OK, with the Jogdial feature and the feel of the joystick in the middle making it probably come out on top of the competition.

OPERATIONS - (edit: this section added later)
On the operations side, it responds really fast to all the comands, no dramas there ! I think with some of the machines that I tried over the past few months, pressing previous chapter and next chapter buttons repeatedly didn't quite work; with the Pioneer it works flawlessly !

Layer change is there, probably the same as 3910.

SOFTWARE FEATURES
Firstly the missing features, compare to say Denon 2900/3910 it is missing the settings for cross-over freq. (for analog outputs). Compare to 3910, it is missing the Time-Alignment (i.e. TA) settings for SACD (again analog outputs). (Remember apart from dedicated SACD players and 3910, I am not aware of any universal player including 2900 that has TA settings !) I think some people made the upgrade from 2900 to 3910 just for the TA settings !

Pioneer though provides the usual Speaker Distance, Speaker Level settings etc. for analog outputs.

It is missing a "zoom" function, both on the unit and on the remote.

So now that the cons are over, let's talk about the rest....

Boy oh boy, where do I start, I could devote many many pages on its software features alone, it is the most comprehensive set that I have seen.

There are more video settings than the likes of Denon 2900 and 3910. ANYTHING can be adjusted in source, from IRE, brightness to gamma settings. In addition to the competition, you can adjust the colorspace, and also the HDMI processing from Component to RGB. There are also many a settings for various filters and picture enhancement settings. The deinterlacer itself can be configured to be flag-based, cadence-based, forced film, forced video etc.

On the audio side, there are similarly large number of settings, you could turn on upscampling for better Redbook SQ. Also there are a few filters available as well.

There are usual settings to turn down the brightness of the LCD display, etc. etc.

In addition to the published features, I am finding some un-published features from various sources; e.g. ability to NOT have to watch those annoying trailers and FBI warnings at the front of many disks, etc. etc.

edit: Then there are features like ability to remember previous 20+ disks or something. It actually remembers where you stopped the movie, isn't that nice More importantly though, it has features like being ability to generate playlists of CDs, DVD-A and SACDs for upto 24 disks; it actually stores it in its memory; very nice !

The unit also has multiple memory settings (memory1, memory2, memory3 etc.); thus one can get it to remember multiple settings. There are these default group of settings and thus one can load them as the default at anytime in any of the memory settings.

Thus, apart from cross-over freq. and TA features, I think Pioneer has a very very comprehensive set of software features.....

4:3 MATERIAL
Pioneer has settings to either watch it stretched or in its original aspect-ratio over both Analog and HDMI video outputs. It will then auto-detect 4:3 material for letterboxing, even on a scene by scene basis. Those of you that remember, there were quite some discussions regarding this feature when 3910 first came out, you can read all about those discussions here.....Another plus for Pioneer...

DISK COMPATIBILITY/READABILITY
I have made this a separate sub-section in General, as I had a lot of problems with ALL the Denons; I am very happy to report that the Pioneer has been flawless ! It has played back every disk of mine !

Officially, it doesn't support DVD-RAM, DVD+R, DVD+RW; I have tested a couple of +R/+RW and they seemed to have played fine, I haven't tested any DVD-RAM. I think I tested one dual-layer disk as well, and it worked, but I can't remember for sure now.....But I have had zero problems with any of my disks.

One glaring thing missing is the ability to play picture-disks, minor issue for me though...

SILENCE
I wanted to highlight a surprise finding of mine !

Having gone through a plethora of DVD Players and Recorders, I have to say that the Pioneer has the quitest transport out there. More importantly, various other players, the transport noise/sound varies with the type of disks, e.g. certain DVD-R disks making more noise than others. This is quite apparent on the Denons, where the sound coming from the DVD Player can tell you about the state of the disk (not very balanced, recorded etc.).

Pioneer is pure bliss, you barely hear it at all ! It is dead silent !

GENERAL - CONCLUSION
Based on General Section, if you are really into SACD, you will want to use TA and thus dedicated SACD machine or Denon 3910 are your only options. (Assuming you don't have any problems with disks-playback on the Denons).

In it's price range, Pioneer has zero competition, 2200/2900 have no iLink and HDMI, Denon 2910 has no iLink. Above it's price range, Arcams are not SACD players, upcoming Marantz is missing iLink.

So based on General section, for me Pioneer with its plethora of software features, warranty, operations, silence, disks playback, reliability reports, future-proof hardware etc. and forms a perfect transport ! I must re-iterate in the $700-$3000 price range, it is also THE best value for money ! And for once I don't feel that I am being ripped off compare to our friends in US !

PQ

via Component
This player was very carefully calibrated, just like the others that I had tried; using DVE.

The unit employs Pioneer's proprietary PureCinema deinterlacer. There are numerous settings for this deinterlacer, off, on, auto1, auto2; basically implying forced film-mode, forced video-mode, flag-based deinterlacing or cadence-based, etc.

I used te IXOS Gold cable (just 1m) to connect to my display, a Hitachi 42'' (106cm) ALIS (1024x1024) plasma.

The ability to do various picture adjustments, helped me find limitations of my display (e.g. it doesn't quite handle blacks below 7.5 IRE, via Analog inputs, etc.).

Anyway, after adjustments in the display settings AND the pioneer, I think I have the black levels, color decoding etc. all perfect. On my display, with other players, the color pattern on the DVE was never quite perfect when viewing with just Red, Green or Blue filters. Now after adjustments, it is perfect. Contrast also is perfect, after utilising the adjustments in the Pioneer.

So, I won't go looking for words, for me the black levels, colors, deinterlacing performance and over PQ is very similar, if not the same, as the Denon 2900 (my previous reference PQ).

Some people, including Glenn, have mentioned black levels, or washed out look, i haven't experienced it.

I don't have 3910 to do direct comparison, but when I did have the 2910 and 3910, I definately preferred 2900's PQ. And Pioneer is equal to that.

Via HDMI
I am not quite finished with the HDMI settings; am still looking for a decent cable and/or adaptor.

But so far, HDMI does seem to add more detail to the picture, in addition it makes the picture a bit more brighter.

Ofcourse, it is important to re-calibrate for this input as well.

Now, my display being a fixed pixel display, is a good candidate for macroblocking and the likes; it only has a DVI input and thus requires HDMI->DVI connection thus making it an excellent candidate to test color-space issues (which are so common when going from HDMI->DVI).

The previous upscaling players that I tried were 2910 and 3910; I am no expert but I think there are some color-space issues with the Denons. In the early days the "Green Tinge", that Alain experienced with the same plasma was quite apparent, and possibly be the result of screwed up colorspace conversions. The later firmware have noticeably reduced these problems. But I still felt that the dark-grey material had a green tinge to it with the Denons.

In addition, with my display, as I previously mentioned the Faroudja chip results in a bit of noise or something.

The pioneer uses their proprietary upscaling chip, called TRex. With HDMI, the colorspace seems to be properly converted and there are no issues, no tinge of any other color. There is no added noise, or anything. It is prestine pure PQ.

I did have to reduce the sharpness, as there was a lot of edge enhancement with default settings.

I am still playing with the HDMI settings, especially the two modes called "standard" and "enhanced". As per manual "enhanced" mode increases color saturation. Toggling between the modes, there is a distinct difference, but not sure if it is to do with the color or rather just different brightness and contrast.

In any case, I am not in a position to compare the PQ to any other player, as I don't have direct access to anything else at the moment.

Considering that the PQ via Component, in my memory, is very similar to Denon 2900 (my reference point) and with HDMI it is equally good with more added detail. I'd have to say, for my display, it is the best PQ. Although, I will keep playing away with the various settings.....

BUT I must conclude, that people in similar circumstances, i.e. DVI input, and/or fixed pixel display; probably have no option but the Pioneer.

Via component, there are three which are equally good, and depending on the material, any one of these machines can come on top, it is Denon 2900, Arcam DV78 and Pioneer 969AVI.

Via HDMI AND upscaling, there are two contenders, Denon 3910, and Pioneer 969avi. Denons, upcoming Yamahas, upcoming Cambridge Audio, upcoming Panasonics, etc. all use the Faroudja chip (single solution for deinterlacing and upscaling) and IMHO the players with these chips can have problems with various displays and thus it is a matter of trying them. With Pioneer though, there shouldn't be any such problems. For displays like projectors etc.; I think Pioneer would still be right up there in PQ.

SQ
For movies, via Coax and Optical; I'd put it on par with Denon 2900 and Denon 3910. Quite some level above my older players (this surprised was observed when I trialled 2900, the first time and thus was not a total surprise this time around).

Analog outs, the sound is different to Denons, much warmer and IMHO much more accurate. But it is such a subjective thing, I won't say more than that.....

I am not sure what DACs Pioneer is using, but to me they sound similar to the Wolfsson ones in Marantz. Thus the sound to me is very familiar.

With just 1 listening, from memory, DVD-A sounds the same as Denon 2900. SACD I thought was a bit better, but I can't be sure, very early days.... to make any judgement.

But in short, I think I'd be happy with its SQ.

OVERALL CONCLUSION
As some of you may know, I started my hunt around 5 months ago (it took this long purely as I was waiting for the new generation of DVD Players with digital output, i.e. DVI/HDMI output to release in Oz).

The following were my MUST requirements (in that order):
- top-notch reliability
- top-notch PQ
- flawless disk-readability (i.e. not sensitive to scratched disks, unbalanced disks etc.)
- no quirks (i.e. slow unresponsive remote, problems with subtitles etc. etc. ; which I encountered in various low end players that drove me nuts)
- silence, yep no whirring sound when playing disks

For future proofing and other reasons, I'd also put the following requirements, somewhere between "must" and "nice-to-have":
- Digital Video Output i.e. DVI/HDMI output (if HDMI, it MUST pass blacker-than-black when going HDMI->DVI, and MUST to proper colorspace conversions, as required)
- iLINK (ONLY IF the DVD player has DVD-A and/or SACD capabilities)

The following were "nice to have" requirements:
- black color
- good and long warranty
- 480i/576i over HDMI (if HDMI is available); just in case I make use of external scaler like Lumagen

The following were NOT my consideration for DVD Player:
- Redbook CD SQ
- DVD-A and/or SACD availability
- layer-change (don't care about a micro-milisecond layer change; so long as it is not 5mins. or something, it's fine by me)

In my hunt, I was dissapointed to find that for top PQ I necessarily would have to look at universal players. Barring Denon 1600, with its few quirks, there are not many choices.....

Thus I expanded the field to include universal players.

Pioneer meets and exceeds most of my requirements. PQ is awesome, and so is quiteness, and disk-readability (barring picture-disks). I haven't come across any quirks, NOT a single quirk to drive me nuts. Black color and a zoom button would have been nice, but they are minor issues for me.....(was surprised how easily wife agreed to the color, she felt it breaks up the colors.... she might have gotten sick of all the black).....

I'd say against the competition, Pioneer would probably come on top; if you consider all these aspects !

Purely based on PQ; I would very highly recommend this player. It is totally silent operation; has had zero reliability issues (which is saying a lot, considering it has been released for so long).

I chose Pioneer from a very impressive field: Denon 2200, Denon 2900, Denon 2910, Denon 3910, Arcam DV78, Arcam DV79, Marantz DV-9500, etc. That's a field extending from $700 to $3000 !

If you are like me just looking for pure prestine PQ WITH future-proof features. There are only two options Pioneer 969AVI and Denon 3910 !

Further if you are looking to mate it with any fixed pixel display and have encountered the types of problems that I have either with PQ or general operations; AND are looking for best "value for money"; there is only one choice, Pioneer 969AVI.

I wouldn't just highly recommend this player, I'd say if you are in the market for a player; get it for the insane price now; as it comes close, if not beats almost everything else in the competition; even costing more than twice it's price !

Certainly, in the price range of less than $1.5k ! There is NO competition, Denon 2910 has no iLink, Yamaha is not released AND I doubt it will come even close to Pioneer's performance or features, 2900 is close in PQ; but misses out on all the modern features including iLink and DVI/HDMI.....

Finally bliss at last (except the stupid color)......

Lastly, I have been receiving a lot of PMs regarding would it be 100% better than my current player and the likes; and I must make my opinions clear. Going from composite to component is an IMPROVEMENT, you notice it. Now if you are very happy with your current player and don't notice its deinterlacing errors and other PQ faults. Pioneer won't be any improvement; for other more critical about the PQ it should definately be at the top of your list.

A few years ago, I was very happy with my DVD Player, forums like these have totally destroyed my HT experience Now I am much more sensitive to various errors; but I think it is at a point now, where it is not so much the devices but the actual data (MPEG compressions) which is the problem... anyway that's another discussion......

That's all for now.....



Post# 158, contains my video settings


Ritesh
.

Glen did a review earlier, and there were a few discussions; just to ensure we have one place to get to all related information for this player, I am posting the link to Glen's 969avi review.

Ritesh

Ritesh,

I purchased a 969 off eBay on the weekend thru Christopher Lees in melbourne. I should receive it this week. I will add my impressions of the player and do some comparisons of SQ via coax / firewire thru a pioneer AX5i.

Peter

Can anyone please explain what 'onboard DTS and Dolby Digital decoder' means? I find this describe for the 969. Does it mean that my Bose Lifestyle 50 which cannot decode DTS would be able to produce the DTS audio if played through this 969 player? Or am I hoping too much...

Cheers.

What is the insane price please?

The onboard decoders separate the encoded digital 5.1 bitstream (normally just extracted from the CD/DVD and sent via coax or optical S/PDIF from the player to an AVR for decoding) into 6 discrete analogue outputs (or 8 analogue outputs, if it supports 7.1) ... the same as SACD and DVD-Audio players [and the 969] do for hi-res audio. Also the same situation with stereo CDs: either the player decodes the PCM stream to analogue L/R RCA outputs or it is sent untouched over coax/optical digital to a receiver for decoding.

If the decoders in the 969 do a better job than those in one's receiver (basically by more accurate/stable crystal clocking at the input to internal Digital-to-Analogue Converters ... and better quality over-sampling within the DACs), better sound quality should ensue.

$1290 Trevor Lees

My Bose cannot process MPEG-2 and DTS bitstream. But if I were to watch a dvd with DTS sound using this Pioneer 969, and let it decode the DTS bitstream before passing the signal via coax to my Bose, would my Bose be able to produce the DTS sound??? Please, please give me a YES or NO answer for my situation as I am not very technical... My Bose currently just go silent whenever I accidentally choose DTS on the DVD audio choice.

Cheers.

I paid $1235 + $35 postage to Canberra. There is another currently available on eBay at this price.

good just got better!
Truscott's Adelaide dvd 969 $1127!
Denon 3910 $1750
Which one should I buy?
The Pio is very tempting at this price...ugly colour tho...

See:


http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi...5753945889&rd=1

even better is that this has been their price for ages?!
Adelaide leading the country? wow thats strange....

NO.

any known issues with firmware on this unit - ie should i check for recent updates before wacking the cash on the table?

NO? Oh well, I was rather hoping it would work as that would mean I can get DTS sound without a system overhaul.

Cheers.

As Ian explained, YES, the 969AVI can decode DTS; however you won't be connecting "via Coax" as you have written above, but via 6 analog audio cables.

So in simple terms, connect 969avi via Coax if your Bose can decode DTS; else connect 969avi via 6 audio cables, if your Bose can't decode DTS.

Ritesh

No, this unit has been released for over a year, and there are no outstanding issues regarding software, as far as I am aware...

Ritesh

I understand now. Ian was right in saying NO because other than coax, the Bose only takes analogue R and L audio from dvd player. That means no DTS for me...

Cheers.
EDIT: Ritesh, when you put out your review, can you please emphasize a bit on its DD5.1 sound quality as compared to other normal dvd player? Just want to know if it is any much better. Cheers.

fattchoi - You would need 6 - channel on your Bose for that to work, which it doesnt have.

Hi Ritesh,

Do you know if the 969 is a candidate for a firmware upgrade to HDMI 1.2 for SACD over HDMI when Sony allows it [soon? for Denon? and others?]?

I currently own a 969 and have done since September last year, unfortunately I paid $2000 for it which I thought was good price at the time. The 969 is a great unit and the sound is fantastic. There are no firmware issues that I am aware of and there has been no problems using both component and HDMI. The remote control is a design tragedy, throw the supplied HDMI cable far away, its very poor quality and introduces noise into the picture, replace it with a Monster, Crest or Belkin for a better picture. Does this price drop mean there is a new model (or colour) on the horizon?

Ive seen this advertised for $2500 still!..

I guess so....

but really though, any next receiver I believe MUST have iLink and thus I am not counting on connecting via HDMI.

For once, even if SACD is allowed, we still have problems with CPMM (or similar) DVD-A disks; i.e. copyright DVD-A disks are still not approved over HDMI..... over iLink no problems....

Thus, I feel HDMI is ...umm.... might be a long way off, from providing true connections for ALL video and ALL TYPES of audio formats....

At least that is my opinion,

Ritesh

this is still a whole can of worms ritesh. Sony control i-link and as long as they do its destiny is in their hands - not a good situation.

& denon link is too specific to denons and doubt any other manufacturers are going to use that.

that leaves hdmi which I believe will be the true future especially when HD-DVD & blu-ray come along. I was reading an interesting uk magazine the other day talking about the Hi-res posibilities with the new formats and all with hdmi.
HDMI

Guys,
Here is an interesting post (in a dissapointing sort of way) from a fellow Aussie who 'upgraded' from a 969 to a 3910...
969 -> 3910

cheers,
Stephen

Having tested both the Pioneer is, frankly, a better player than the Denon 3910. That Faroudja chip is a deal breaker for me, coupled with absolutely zero problems with the Pioneer.

My 969 arrived last night. I hooked it up via i.Link and component. I only had time to setup and test that everyting worked. My initial impressions were the SQ and PQ were certainly an improvement over my old player. Hopefully I get some time this weekend to try it out horoughly

Anyone know what ppl are paying for the AX5i? I know it complements the 969 perfectly, and both components would be great in my Home Theatre.
Reason for price drop? HIGH DEF DVD players! There coming . . .

Sorry, you Bose will not be able to process the DTS signal. Also if you are after a excellent multi zone, prog pal/ntsc dvd player, with true upscale from ntsc to pal, please consider the Harman Kardon DVD22. ( I know it does not really compete with those listed above in the feature & versatility stakes) but if you are only running analouge interconnects( component) then you will not be dissapointed in the P.Q, especially running the unit into a HD screen.
Ihave it running into a KVHR36M31, via component, with prog scan on the tv & player, and the results are breath taking. The only downside is the slow loading & opening times.

post deleted <review moved up to the first post>

Amy, thanks for your recommendation. What I am after is basically a HDMI dvd player to make full use of my Hitachi plasma HDMI input. I was just rather hoping that the Pioneer 969 with its onboard DTS decoder may allow my Bose to play the DTS audio. Unfortunately, as explained very clearly, it is not possible with Bose as it does not have the individual 6 channel input. In any case, with the HD DVD player coming out, I may just hold out till they appear in the market before I jump in. I am in no hurry as I currently have a very good Loewe dvd player which is still going well.

Cheers.

HD DVD may or may not come this year, even if it does (towards the end of the year), the price would be very high and the availabililty of titles would be slow coming.....

Like anything new, we are 2-3 years away, if not more before something like HD DVD or BlueRay DVD happens....Just look at how much time it took for something like Denon 3910 to make it to Australia, many months after it was released overseas...Integra 10.5 is still not here......

I have been looking for a DVD Player for my Hitachi for a long time, and thus if PQ is your thing, Alain and I found the new Denons not really a good match for the Hitachi, thus you may want to try 969avi....

Ritesh

Ritesh, firstly, let me say great review you have posted on the 969AVI. However, please don't tease... As you can see from my post that you just replied to, I am NOT in a hurry. But having just read your review, I am not so sure now...

Cheers.

Ritesh great review and notes on the Pioneer. I must take a look at one.

Thanks, have just added a brief comment regarding the price....

Ritesh

yes good post ritesh.

looks like your sure enjoying the thing - very happy that it looks like you finally found the one ? or are you still unsure about the colour - or like the remote starting to like it ? hehehe

anyway just a question how you hooking up the hdmi to the dvi on the hitachi - I have a hdmi/dvi adaptor but wondering what you using as haven't seen too many posts on any affordable hdmi/dvi cables.

ok I found your post here...

hehehe looks like you having the same dilemas - i'll answer there

http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=14876

Ritesh, its important to be crystal clear that its not all brands, and not even all models within that brand that are so often overpriced in Oz. I take it on a case by case basis as should everyone. Its also obvious that bigger and heavier items are not so price relative vs pricing in their country of origin. Personal importing doesn't always work out the cheapest or best, but IMO its worth looking at if your spending big $$$. If you are chasing something a little different or better than average, many of the local highend shops (like Len and Joe run) are just out of control on price. Also remember Pioneer is asian made so I would expect the best street price in HK to be a lot lower than the USA. Of course warranty issues etc need to be taken into account on top of the OS savings. All of which which may negligate the $$.

Added the following note to the Specs. section under General.... totally forgot about this major advantage.....



Ritesh

thats true hifi, musical fidelity gear for instance is often selling cheaper here in oz than the street prices in the uk. We do often do get some good deals.

but yes brands like denon is just a rip off till you either find them selling at their real street price or at run out at 40-50% off.

totally agree too hifi that asian made stuff - the majority these days should probably be cheaper for us than what uk/us customers see.

Agree one should look at case-by-case basis, in this case I was just talking about 969avi.....

I am not sure if it is anything to do with "asian made", most of the competition is the same....

But really though, the street prices in US for Denon 2900 are between USD $300-$400; whereas in Oz, they were around $1k and at some places seems to have gone up to $1.4k-$1.5k !

Something like the Integra, street going prices in US is USD $2.5k, and planned RRP here in Australia for corresponding model is a whopping $6k.

It is the same with other models really...... thus if you consider the price of THIS pioneer model, it is comparable to prices elsewhere..(may be only 20%-30% or so higher, if at all) ..This is definately a first for me....

Ritesh

Alebonau very true.
I dont buy or follow the brand but I understand that Rotel is sold for relative pricing here, yet M&K is a total rip off (sold by the same little bald dweeb). Talking of MF its interesting that MF is mail order in the USA, and also that mail order seems to really be gaining and growing momentum within the USA.

Ritesh I agree its not one I would import as the price is not bad like the Denon's and Integra's. Those two import groups (denon, integra) have a lot of extra high prices.

ritesh keep in mind with the 2900 you talking run out pricing here you can't really compare as on run out retaillers can go a bit crazy.

yes hifi musical fidelity really took off in the US with mail order. Just like HSU. there was a 30 days no question money order and sold at a price lower than in the UK. I'm a huge believer in try before you buy and wish we had a bit more of the mail order deals over here as in the US.

Its not just them doing direct but even just looking at speakers its brands like Axiom, ACI, Rocket, Swan, Outlaw, Svs, Onix, HTM, nOrh, Adire, Magnapan, Ascend etc. By no means a defintive list but thats just the ones straght off the top of the brain.

Ritesh I thought I would reply to you here rather than avsforum - I ran both players tonight (3910 vs 969avi) - colours are much better thru the 3910 (thru HDMI) than Pio - esp with digital animation like Nemo - vivd in your face colours- I had always found the Pio to be slightly washed out so bear this in mind. Well MB that is another issue but perhaps the majority of the time this is not hopefully an issu. I scanned thru several movies involving lots of dark images like Underworld and MB was not really an issue compared with LoTR but colour is noticeably better (and I am not talking Gold vs Black / silver).
Choice though is diff now as I paid near rrp 1 year ago for Pio - 2499 vs rrp 1990 for 3910.
So what are U leaning towards?

Pioneer is what I am leaning towards....

I found after calibration, that the colours are excellent and not washed out at all. Remember with HDMI there are two settings "standard" and "enhanced", if you are switching between the two, ensure that you re-calibrate your display. In the manual, it says that use "enhance" for better color saturation, but I think it is probably related to black-levels more than color itself (i.e. PC RGBs vs Video RGBs).

I have added first cut of the review for PQ; not much on HDMI yet, but will give you some idea on the experiences...

Ritesh

I suppose unless running side by side or doing ab comparisons you can't really make comments one versus the other but more what your impressions are on the particular player for pq/sq - that said I'm sure most colour aspect as you say ritesh should be adjustable to suit your liking. Unless ofcourse theres something drastically wrong as I found when I hooked up the denon 2910 to my plasma and got a green screen.

I should mention that I was driven away from Denons not so much because of PQ or SQ, but other aspects, as discussed to death here.....

Alain is right, I am not in a position anymore to compare Denon 3910 or Pioneer 969AVI, but for me Pioneer is turning out to be a better overall player; due to many other reasons than just PQ or SQ.

I guess there is more to consider than just PQ or SQ, when making a purchase...

Ritesh

The biggest drama and most annoying thing I have had with Denon is that they can be very fussy about the disc, fine scratches, fingerprints, fluff etc. I have had to basically polish the discs spotless, where put them in the same condition in my $200 Pioneer and it just plays them without glitch. Its always been an issue with Denon from way back when I tried one of their first players. I have kids and rent discs so I cant have brand new every time I put a disc in a player hence the Pioneer player.