I guess my point was that comparing Arcam 78 (or maybe even 79), Denon 2900, 3910 etc. to the Pioneer 969 is still OK !

But, comparing the CD SQ of any of the above machines to something that costs more than 3-4 times, like Arcam FMJ29a is flawed IMHO.....

Ritesh

thanks for clarifying ohboy. yes do think the likes of arcam have always been focussed on the quality side as against bells and whistles and there will always be people looking for the quality side of things. And it is no doubt the arcams are pretty classy players.

ritesh I have to agree given the pioneer is in reality a $2500 player its fair game comparing it with anythng $1000-$3000. Probably given the new $1,500 rrp and the street for this player of $1000up probably makes this even more so.

With CD sound, Arcam has gone to some effort with the cd sound of its dvd players but really I think its a waste comparing cd sound wit hall these players. If you were serious about the cd side of things I do think a dedicated cd player is really the only way to go.

Slightly off the subject here,
how can Pioneer justify the initial cost of $2,500.00 for this unit, and reduce it by 50% and still presumably make money ??
or are we being ripped off by retailers.
I would be spitting chips, if I had bought this unit at full price.

So is it now a case of.......PIONEER buyers BEWARE!!!!!!!

cheers

perhaps one of the brilliant engineers on the pioneer 969 production line discovered a cost saving in its manufacture that would reduce manufacturing cost by 50%+ ?

perhaps pioneer has found other cost saving measures with this product?

or is this just the case of pioneer originally selling the player for what they could get for it or thought what it was worth(market worth) and now selling it for actually what it costs plus a more reasonable markup amd repositioned it with the new price.

or are they now selling it at a loss - to generate sales, increase customer base etc, on run out, somethin new in the wind ?

it is a bit of a strange thing lately with a few of the higher priced products from the japanese brands that they come out with a high price initially and then amazingly price drops by 50%.

I think Pioneer is trying to pitch its products at the right segment of the market make more money on volume or may have written its costs off and are just trying to increase its market share.....who knows...but Pioneer did the same with their Plasmas....got a couple of buddies who feel slightly bitter...

anyways the whole thing here is about perceived value to the buyer....for me I initially thought I'd go for a reasonably priced universal player that covered all formats....but the player in this case, being the 969....did not cut it for me, so I traded the item in for something that I obtained a better utility from my perspective....and that perspective cannot be objectivelty adduced here....

As for getting a dedicated CD player for audio.....no arguments there from me...had a Arcam player for a long while...prolly look to getting another one when I replace the Sony....

but for now...enjoying my music

Audio is a very subjective thing, video isn't !

Pioneer 969AVi is a brilliant DVD Player.....and a not too bad an audio player (same league as Denon 2900 or 3910)....

On audio side of things, there can be several options.....

• dedicated CD, SACD and DVD-A players (something that you have opted for)
• outboard DACs
• direct to the AVR or Prepro (something which I'd prefer, purely for simplicity of connections; and iLink would be the way to go for that)...

Lastly but not the least, try other universal players, let's see:

• Denon 3910, 2900, 2910 (I found them very similar to Pioneer's SQ, which isn't surprising considering they share very similar Burr Brown DACs)
• Marantz 9500
• Integra DPS 10.5
• Denon 5910

In short, if you do want better audio, in a universal player, my votes would be Marantz 9500, Integra 10.5 or Denon 5910 !

Ritesh

Have you even tested the Pioneer 969? I have that player and the $3000 DV-79 and, frankly, the Pioneer is a better DVD player video wise. The Arcam is slighlty better for audio. The DV-78 doesn't even have HDMI outputs. You seem to equate quality with cost. Well, the Pioneer had a retail price fo $2500 for over a year. Does that help?

Ritesh

I have no doubts that the Pioneer does perform well for audio; I have not had the pleasure of hearing this particular model so I won’t comment on its performance.

Bundling these 4x units together because your comment “they share very similar Burr Brown DACs” is really not as simple as that.

All DAC’s are not created equal and just because one manufacturer may make the DAC’s for these particular DVD players do not mean they are of equal quality. I am sure companies the size of Pioneer would have components specially manufactured, or slightly customised to suit their requirements.

If we are talking 2ch here I would only say that the 3910 and 2900 do not cut the mustard in the 2ch stakes IMO.

Ritesh

Again I agree to dis-agree with you on this.

Ok...I find the DV 27a better than the Pioneer on the Video side as well....have been using it all weekend, the picture playback is absolutely stunning!!..just do a comparison yourself....so its entirely a subjective call from where I sit....I know my call will not sit comfortably here as there appears to be fair few fans of the 969....but thats how I perceive it after owning the Pioneer for over three months.....

I have tried the Marantz 9500....nice player, but still not as good as DV 27a on the audio front....not sure about the other two universal players that you mentioned....for me the audio reproduction is important whilst watching movies etc...it makes a huge difference on the overall enjoyment.

I dont think I will go down the universal route just yet!....I was in England late last year and one of my mates had a Linn universal player...that was something special (although I think its around $9K, cant remember the model ref).....for now for me the Dv 27a is exactly what I wanted in both audio and video.....

My observations does not discount the fact that the Pioneer is still a good product at the current price point and I can see why it has so many fans.....it just that it did not cut it for me...thats all.

Ritesh

I have no doubts that the Pioneer does perform well for audio; I have not had the pleasure of hearing this particular model so I won’t comment on its performance.

Bundling these 4x units together because your comment “they share very similar Burr Brown DACs” is really not as simple as that.

All DAC’s are not created equal and just because one manufacturer may make the DAC’s for these particular DVD players do not mean they are of equal quality. I am sure companies the size of Pioneer would have components specially manufactured, or slightly customised to suit their requirements.

If we are talking 2ch here I would only say that the 3910 and 2900 do not cut the mustard in the 2ch stakes IMO.

[/quote]


Agreed.

Plenty of manufacturers share similar parts that are sourced from external suppliers....but its how each manufacturer put their signature on the overall package that makes or breaks a product for a customer within a particular target market....its not that dis-similar to mechanical watches where Swatch supplies the ETA blanks for 70% of the world mechanical watches....the end result varies from a longinees to a IWC...same ebauche, different workmanship and totally different end products at different price points that is subjectively adjudged by the customer....

Discussions is why these forums are for.....

therashman, I think you meant 29a rather than 27a above (correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression you currently have the latest fmj as oppose to the previous gen. one; which some think was better than the current gen. but that's another topic....)....

Ritesh

quite true.....

Ritesh

Hi Jace,
You sound as if you are angry, this is an open discussion, where eveyone has an opinion. As I stated above "I am not saying the 969 is a bad player"

To answer your questions:
1. No I have not tested the 969 (It would be nice to be able to test all players, but not practical)

2. I do not require HDMI or DVI (hence my purchase of the DV78) also, a lot of people on the forum have had better results via component/RGB connections.

3. Yes I do equate Quality with Cost, you get what you pay for...reasoning as follows" 6 ingredients for $1250.00 against 2 ingredients for $1900.00"

I am pleased that you are enjoying your 969 as I am enjoying my DV78..would be nice to have an unlimited budget tho'

cheers

ohboy, I am afraid your reasoning here is a little bit flawed...

Let me explain further. Up till recently, the Pioneer has RRP of $2499. Now it has RRP of $1499. Same player, same ingredient. Based on your reasoning, those Pioneer which has RRP of $2499 is better quality than those having RRP of $1499.

Cheers.

No, I'm not angry, but I certainly don't think you should be making judgement calls or having opinions on players you've never even seen. And equating quality with cost is a really odd way to go about classifying a product's inherent worth. The Arcam's are more expensive primarily because they are a niche brand. Pioneer is a major Japanese electronics company. However, the Pioneer DV969 actually had a retail price higher than the DV78 when it was released. Which means, by your analysis, it's the better player.

Hi fattchoi,
You have not picked up what I said, let me clarify for you.

The Pioneer has all the bells and whistles included in the price.(universal player) HMDI etc.

The Arcam has merely picture quality and sound quality

Therefore if we say that each player cost ($2000.00)
Then Aracam would have spent more on P.Q. and S.Q per item than Pioneer who have spent their money on the additional features (bells and whistles)

cheers

Hi again Jace,
Please refer to my reply to fattchoi, for clarification.

By your reasoning,
Then you cannot pass judgement on say an Aldi DVD player valued at $99.00 without testing it out first, and that it is packed with Quality components.
I do not think so!!

cheers

Of course I can't pass judgement on the Aldi. And i haven't tried to. And just because Arcam spent more money on their components doesn't automatically make them better. At least see the 969 in operation before you look down on it.

But, what you are implying is simply because it cost more, assuming all things being equal, it is better. Hence I am using the same player which definitely have all things being equal but differing pricing now to show the flaw in your argument.

And again your above argument made a very big assumption. Just because you only got 2 ingredients from Arcam while you get 6 from Pioneer, and if the price are equal means you get quality with Arcam and quantity with Pioneer. Who knows, it may actually only cost Arcam say, $200 to make the player while it cost Pioneer $600 to make the player. So going by your ratio, really, the Pioneer has both quantity and quality while the Arcam has only quality. Unless you have the full product costing for each player, your assumption is very flawed. For all you know, the Arcam could be way overpriced.

If not, then surely the BOSE system is made of the highest quality material available in the market. After all, you do get very little for your money so it must be full of quality since quantity is so lacking? And in case those Bose lover think I am a Bose basher, let me stress that I am a Bose owner and really loved it but certainly feel it is way overpriced. But then again, I don't know its full production cost, so I could be way wrong in my belief as well.

Cheers.

Love my new 969.. Only problem was it didn't work with my Gefen DVI switcher and I can only select Enhanced in the HDMI color settings to not get a purple screen and tinge to the picture on HDMI connection...Waiting on Pioneer to get back to me to explain that !!!!

it appears i missed out on some fun here, been busy last couple of days......lol....u r right its the 29a not 27a....sorry...and its seriously good little number.....

Purple screen...don't worry. Santa will gratefully buy that off you if you wish to sell to him. I understand he loves all things 'purple'...

Cheers.

I saw your post on the AVS as well.....

Regarding the Gefen switch, it is a known fact that certain Gefen switches do have problems, as not all of them (even if they claim) pass-through HDCP properly.....I think there are a few threads over at AVS regarding them....

Try to use the HDMI color setting (which infact is a black level setting) with other similar settings like IRE settings + black level etc. to find something that looks best to you....unfortunatly really good dvd players like the Pioneer can show, once various settings are used, some of the limitations of one's displays...digital displays with their discrete levels do at times show interesting behaviour/s... My theory is that your display is just trying to show a black/grey level that it has been asked to and since there are only so many levels it does the best it can and it is purple.....Just a theory.... If you do find some other explanation either from Pioneer or someone else regarding this, please post back.....

I'd just set it to a level that the display can comfortably display and then enjoy the excellent PQ.....

Ritesh

Good to see you are enjoying the DV78, it is an excellent player.....

Ohboy, mate seems like you opened up some can of worms with that pricing logic.....

Personally I think that the cost is different for one simple reason; volumes ! Pioneer's costs for the extra 'bells & whistles' as you call them is spread out for a much much larger user-base (AND many more devices, including other players in the range; even AVRs etc.); than the Arcam, which is a niche product. Not to mention that the margin on the Arcams probably would be much higher than the Pioneer.....Manufacturing costs probably would also be affected purely by the volume......

Coming back to PQ though; having seen them all, I'd put, via Component, Denon 2900, Pioneer 969avi and Arcam DV78 to be very similar. With certain scenes, slightly faviouring one player vs the other. There definately isn't much, via Component, in these three very excellent players.

SQ is a very different and subjective issue.....

Disk playback, as you are aware with your experiences is not the main strength of Denons; but both Arcam and Pioneer are excellent in this regards...

Build quality has zero meaning; unless manufacteres can back it up with their warranties; and both Pioneer and Arcams have much longer warranties than the Denons in this regards.....

If for whatever reason, one does need any of the bells & whistles; like HDMI or iLink then the choice between the three is easy......

just my 2c,

regards,

Ritesh

Hi Ritesh,
I am really pleased that you have found your DVD player, especially after the disapointment with the Denon, may you enjoy the Pioneer for many years to come.
I did open a Big can of worms with my pricing logic
seemed to have upset a few people.
You make some valid points
however I will agree to disagree.

It is good when one is happy with one's purchase.

cheers

I am outputting to a Pioneer 435 which you would think would be 100% compatible... when I set the HDMI Color setting to Standard the background of the menu goes pink/purple... and the picture on a DVD retains that hue across the screen... I am sure it is wither a fault with my media receiver or the player... Pioneer have responded that a technician will respond to me at THEIR (!!) earliest convenience !!! I'll post when the I get a fix...

wonder if this is a cable fault - or a pin/termianl out in a plug or something. did you say you tried another cable. the dvd work on anything else and also you tried anything else via this connection to your panel ?

I am using the cable supplied with the unit.. previously I had run the DVI output of the Humax STB and Momitsu via the Gefen switch to the Pioneer Media receiver using a DVI to HDMI convertor all were ok ... I have another Belkin HDMI to DVI cable that I can attach the DVI to HDMI convertor to see if the cable is the problem...I can get a clear picture on the Enhanced HDMI color setting not STANDARD which is strange... almost like the DVD Player is faulty and not correctly outputting on HDMI when set to STANDARD...!! Watched a DVD tonight (on Enhanced of course) and WOW !!!!

ohboy, you did open a big can of worm but hope you did not think that I was upset when I put forward my side of the argument. In fact, I was really enjoying the banter. The only time I would ever be upset is when posters go into personal attack mode. You merely tried your best with your logic and I with my banana-logic. Sometimes, I was even lost in my own logic...

Cheers.

Hi fattchoi,
No I did not think you were upset, it was good banter
keep eating the bannanas

cheers

Ritesh,


I'm new to the forum world, and am VERY Impressed with your research......I am a bit of a procrastinator myself and like to research things before buying, but man, you have raised the bar somewhat............

So I am in the middle of looking at DVD Players and AVR Amps......so just loved this thread.........What AVR are you connecting this DVD Player to........

where is your "list" of components.....?


(I would put my list up, but I can't work out how....and not that my list is anything to sprout about, but I am working on it.)




Fingers

just click on 'my controls' up the top of the page and then edit signature. most people wanting to share info on their systems put their info into their signature.

Thanks alebonau........

easy when you know how hey.....!

Any hints on where I can find a list of good / bad / recommended AV recievers on this forum......save reading every single thread....?

i am way confused with DVD Players and AVR Amps......I need help BIG TIME.......!


Fingers....

some good stuff there fingers for your 2ch stuff you got - I'm a bit of a 2ch fan myself.

For the 'still deciding stuff' you mentioned I'd do a search using the brand name and model numbers. You'll find a fair bit of stuff there. This is the right section of the forum to be looking in.Theres no specific thread but plenty of threads with people looking on building an av system.

Well guys, I've been to the Spearmint school of Shopping, and while my wife is interstate for a week, I've been very naughty.

Today, I ordered a new 969 and will be picking it up tomorrow.... I can't wait.

Now, how does that secret handshake go?

Welcome to the forum, and thanks for the kind words....

Regarding the AVRs, I will be starting a thread similar to this one soon..... so if you are interested in keeping an eye on the latest and the greatest watch that thread

If you are not interested in the latest interfaces, i.e. iLink, DVI, HDMI and latest auto-eq. then you will find plenty of threads regarding AVRs and pre-pros on this forum.....

regards,

Ritesh

You misunderstood me, I am NOT implying incompatibility or cable etc. (I am assuming all on those basic fronts is OK) what I am saying is your display's ability to handle various shades of grey.... any DVD Player (be in Denon, etc.); which allows configuration of brightness/black-levels etc. via HDMI/DVI will show this limitation.... infact, don't worry as not just your display but MOST digital display have similar issues..... with 8 or 10bit or even 12bit processing, these problems can show up.....

Do you know how many levels your pioneer has? or what bit-processing does it do? 8 bits or 10 bits etc.?

As an experiment, change the HDMI Color setting to introduce the tinge, AND at the same time, lower the settings of the black-level or brightness on either DVD Player or TV; if it dissapears; then it is MOST definately the result of digital processing (and using not enough bits....)....

Ritesh

Hey Foghorn.... what a MAN!!

We are not scared (much), we are built tough, and that is why we do these small indiscretions when the other half isn’t looking.

Have fun with the new player, I am sure you will love it.

Hey Alebonau....thx for ur advice on combining my MF 2ch set up with the Arcam....its simply sensational!!...gotta say that I have got the best of both worlds right now.....I think I is a happy chapee for a while ....so thx again!!...

Sorry I wasn't suggesting that you were suggesting incompatibility... but Pioneer to Pioneer should be able to handle the basics.. Pioneer have not responded as yet and I will chase them up next week..Slackos !!! I don't expect to have to use anything other than the standard settings when delaing with the same manufacturer and current products.. particularly when the manual states that I should be able to !!! Simply stating it I won't be fiddling as I shouldn't have to !!! As far as 8 or 10 bits who cares ??? The player does not allow me to use settings which should work !!

therashman I'm very glad it worked out for you, great to hear back from you that you managed to combine your mf 2ch setup with your arcam ht amp and getting the best of the both worlds - 2ch and HT. I'm a big fan of musical fidelity amps and have been for years now so can just imagine that smile you got on your face right now ! hehehe

Found the problem... it was in the HDMI Colour setting on the PLASMA I had it set to other than AUTO after setting to AUTO .. no more purple / pink... I had it set to work properly with my DVI STB and Momitsu.now I am only running the 969 off the HDMI input..

Wonderful !!!

Ritesh

I'll have to tell pioneer so that they can respond more quickly in future or put it in their FAQ !!!!

Foggy: have you been loitering about Bankstown Hifi again? Anyway, congrats on your purchase. I am sure you will enjoy it.

Cheers.

You know me too well fattchoi They matched the price that elisiX posted earlier in the thread ($1150).

...and yes, I'm loving it. I'm still working my way through all the new features. This thing rocks!

I was originally wanting the Denon AVR3805 and DVD3910 Combo......but paying $1,999 for a DVD Player was a bit too much for me, especially as my NEC Plasma only has One DVI input.........

My local retailer said he couldn't do too much on pricing with Denon....but after some searching, I found it for under $1,500.....(bloody liar)...and the 1910 under $400

I was then looking at making do with the DVD1910..........and a Component connection to the plasma.......


But the Pioneer 969 looks the piece.......is $1,150 the cheapest any one has seen it.......and where can I find it this cheap.........?....I would probably need it delivered by post as I live 2 hrs north of Brisbane......!


I am thinking a couple of extra dollars now may be well worth it in the long run......get a better DVD Player (the 969), and find an HT Amp with DVI/HDMI switching and an Ieee input, and this may be a bit more future proof........?

The Marantz SR8500 has DVI Switching, but that's the only one I have found thats any where near affordable...........any other options any one has seen........?

Those of you with the Pio 969, or Denon 3910, or similar.........are you all hooking them into really expensive AVR's........?


If I am limited to a budget of say not much more that $2,500 for an AVR, will the Pio 969 be tooooo good for it and i have wasted money getting it......?



Although PQ is important with a 50" Plasma, ( I have gone an NEC Plasma which i think was good, but also on the cheaper side) , SQ is my main thing.....and i am not chasing 2 ch quality as i will retain my dedicated CD Player for that......but wanting the better in the middle tier of Sound for HT........




So..........is the Pio 969 toooo good for me.......or is it worth it just to get the extra optins of the connections.......?

Fingers,

check out this auction. I bought from them and had it within a week. At the current bid with post $1175

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi...ssPageName=WDVW

I have a Pioneer 969 and think it's agreat unit. Trevor Lees Audio have a new Pioneer on ebay at the moment for $1,140.00 + $35.00 for Courier. See:

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi...5768051728&rd=1

Give them a call and see if they will sell you one for that price. I'm sure they will.

Trevor Lees Audio
10 Cotham Rd
Kew 3101
(03)9853 2522


Now to be fair there is a Denon 3910 on ebay with a "Buy It Now" price of $1,649.00 See:

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi...5768292926&rd=1

They also have a Denon 3805 with a starting bid of AU $1,850.00 If you purchased both the 3910 & 3805 you could get better pricing perhaps. See:

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi...5767657627&rd=1

There is a contact for both Auctions. "call Robert on 0409 384 969. Thank you for time." worth a try!

Anyway both the Denon & Pioneer DVD players are excellent units. You will be happy with either.

This is much easier then you think ! IF you already have a decent CD transport; for HT; just use the normal Coax or Optical connection; and let your reciever do the decoding.

I can tell you that, there is still a difference between $100 player and the Pioneer even for HT via Coax/optical ! I can also tell you that there is virtual nill difference between various higher end players for HT via Coax/Optical connections !

In short, for your situation, I'd connect Pioneer via normal Coax for HT, AND connect it via Analog for CD and DVD-A/SACD formats.

IF the receiver has iLink, then I'd first investigate (by listening) which device has better DACs, Pioneer or the receiver and then you MAY want to use iLink for high-rez formats (DVD-A and SACD). OR if easy of connection gets priority over SQ; then use use that one cable....

Hope it helps,

Ritesh