150 replies to this topic

[yorac]

POV, on Jan 1 2012, 09:40 PM, said:

Agreed....but I think that there is an element of that in all luxury/non essential sales arenas.  My mum will only buy BMW cars, she never even shops around.  The fact that they are overpriced, poorly built unreliable vehicles is irrelevant to her, she believes that driving a BMW is part of her 'image'.

POV, on Jan 1 2012, 09:40 PM, said:

Agreed....but I think that there is an element of that in all luxury/non essential sales arenas.  My mum will only buy BMW cars, she never even shops around.  The fact that they are overpriced, poorly built unreliable vehicles is irrelevant to her, she believes that driving a BMW is part of her 'image'.

POV, on Jan 1 2012, 09:41 PM, said:

Agreed....but I think that there is an element of that in all luxury/non essential sales arenas.  My mum will only buy BMW cars, she never even shops around.  The fact that they are overpriced, poorly built unreliable vehicles is irrelevant to her, she believes that driving a BMW is part of her 'image'.

So I think we're all agreed..........

[...]

yorac, on Jan 1 2012, 09:44 PM, said:

So I think we're all agreed..........

Not so sure about that.......  

Why can I see three BMW's?  

[POV]

yorac, on Jan 1 2012, 08:14 PM, said:

So I think we're all agreed..........

Yes....the irony here is that they call these things 'smart' phones

[MLXXX]

POV, on Jan 1 2012, 09:10 PM, said:

Yes....the irony here is that they call these things 'smart' phones

I think the difficulty lies in the DTV Forum site response time. If I click on Add Reply, I find there is often a considerable delay before the site responds, even with a high speed cable connection. The post has often "taken" without the site acknowledging the fact within a reasonable time. I think it would help if the forum software were enhanced to recognise potential duplicate posts and generate an Are you sure? dialogue. Duplicate posts are commonplace on this site. I have even seen quadruplicate posts.

POV, on Jan 1 2012, 07:00 PM, said:

I must admit to finding the Denon/Krell blind comparison very interesting if true....

I'd be interested to know how the equipment was set up. It's hard to level match to within 0.1dB, synchronise the sources, and switch between two systems quickly and frequently. If differences are very minute, then frequent switching between precisely synchronised and level matched alternatives makes the differences easier to identify.

What equipment would be used to change levels so that they match? An interposed preamplifier?

If listening with the one set of loudspeakers, it can be best for listeners to keep their heads stationary, or at least move their heads within a tightly controlled region, if differences are minute.  It's disturbing when you hear more difference in sound by moving your head an inch, than when the signal source is allegedly changed from A to B.

Then there is listener fatigue.

And of course there is the question of what recordings were being listened to and whether they "stretched" the equipment and exposed potential weaknesses. I find recordings of acoustic performances easier to critique than heavily processed pop recordings.

I personally would have found it easier to change only one variable at a time, i.e. switch between two CD players (level matched to within 0.1dB at 1kHz), or switch between two power amplifiers. I would guess that the CD players would be likely to differ more than the amps.  However the fact that CD players may differ to the extent a difference is audible doesn't necessarily mean one is "better" than the other. It can simply reflect a different design approach in the filtering.

Some of this painstaking audiophile comparison strikes me as similar to establishing whether a pane of treated glass has an average transparency of 71% or 72%.  Possible to measure a difference with sensitive equipment, but very difficult to tell a difference with the naked eye.

What is the audible effect of converting an electrical analogue signal to deviations in a groove, and then converting those deviations back to an electrical analogue signal?

I'd be interested to hear a comparison between:
(1) an analogue audio signal (music) input to a recording lathe, and;
(2) the audio signal at the output of a phono preamp fed by a magnetic cartridge tracking a vinyl disc pressed from a metal plate manufactured from the original disc cut using the lathe in (1).

The analogue audio input signal to the lathe could be captured at 96kHz 24 bits and saved to a computer hard drive. The sound output by the phono preamp could be recorded with the same ADC at 96/24.  And the two recordings (level matched) could be compared on an A B basis played from the hard drive. I suspect the differences would be quite marked, and "material".  Has anyone come across such comparative recordings?

Edited by MLXXX, 02 January 2012 - 12:06 AM.

[bassett]

Chopsus, on Jan 1 2012, 08:29 PM, said:

This is going to sound snobby, but the reality is that the "Average Joe" audio consumer  IS] ignorant and many of them do walk into dealers with a brand name instead of their ears because their fellow Dr's, Lawyer's or Indian Chiefs told them that was the best brand to have .... I dare say this is the type of wanker that Steve(?) was referring to at breakfast and he'd be dumb not to take their money as they clearly deserve it.

There is a hell of a lot of truth, in all the above.  How many of us have spent hours  showing some prospective buyer our systems, and attempting to explain the "in's and out's"  
of what does what, only to find out later, that they've trooped of  a box seller and returned with a load of plastic boxs. And the fast talking salesman at the box sellers, know  that
your average punter doesn't have a clue about anything Hi Fi. So they also sell them a couple of "Monster" cables  just for good measure.
Then a few weeks later, after they have destroyed the packaging, and lost the receipt,   Back they come to complain that there new "super" system doesn't sound a bit like yours,
and what have they done wrong, Or more likely why did you give them bad advice in the first place. And there's no point in trying to explain high-end or even entry level kit,
You might as well transport yourself to Mars or Melbourne,  there both simply so far out of town, to register any sort of understanding with them.

The guy across the road from me was a classic case.  Of he goes to Hardly Normal, Comes home with a horrible assortment of black plastic boxs a few broom stick stands, a
role of bell wire  and a large plastic box which turned out to be the Amp / Blu-Ray player. [no other inputs]  Then he finds out the thing will only play Blu-ray disc's,  which of
cause he doesn't have,  and his $2 DVD collection have become obsolete.  So he whinges and moans for a week, then blames me, cos he's blown his cash, on something he can't
use.  And Hardly Normal won't take it back cos he used the box to start the BBQ.

[MLXXX]

bassett, on Jan 2 2012, 11:27 AM, said:

and a large plastic box which turned out to be the Amp / Blu-Ray player. [no other inputs]  Then he finds out the thing will only play Blu-ray disc's,  which of
cause he doesn't have,  and his $2 DVD collection have become obsolete.

That's odd, a Blu-ray player that doesn't play DVDs. You'd expect to be able to play play DVDs and CDs.

I saw a $20 DVD player at Coles the other day. Amazing. Possibly only composite video output, I couldn't see any details on the box.

[bassett]

I have no idea what the brand was, or even if it had a brand name.. It was a strange object, It combined Blu-ray player with an amp, of unknown output. All the thing
had was a fixed power cord and  a set of connections for the 5.1 speakers. Only a stand by, on off button on the front panel, Everything else was controlled by a cheap
plastic remote And that was it. Reported cost was $999. I tried a normal DVD  and a few C.D's and the thing just sat there. Then I tried a few burned copies.  Same thing.
So thinking the thing was a dud, I borrowed a couple of Blu-Ray's  [I don't own any, I'm not into movies,  Only normal format music DVD's. Hangs head in shame] And
the thing fired up good as gold. I think he's convinced himself it's wonderful, as he now rents movies according to  his other half.

[holdencaulfield2007]

bassett, on Jan 2 2012, 12:27 PM, said:

There is a hell of a lot of truth, in all the above.  How many of us have spent hours  showing some prospective buyer our systems, and attempting to explain the "in's and out's"  
of what does what, only to find out later, that they've trooped of  a box seller and returned with a load of plastic boxs. And the fast talking salesman at the box sellers, know  that
your average punter doesn't have a clue about anything Hi Fi. So they also sell them a couple of "Monster" cables  just for good measure.
Then a few weeks later, after they have destroyed the packaging, and lost the receipt,   Back they come to complain that there new "super" system doesn't sound a bit like yours,
and what have they done wrong, Or more likely why did you give them bad advice in the first place. And there's no point in trying to explain high-end or even entry level kit,
You might as well transport yourself to Mars or Melbourne,  there both simply so far out of town, to register any sort of understanding with them.

The guy across the road from me was a classic case.  Of he goes to Hardly Normal, Comes home with a horrible assortment of black plastic boxs a few broom stick stands, a
role of bell wire  and a large plastic box which turned out to be the Amp / Blu-Ray player. [no other inputs]  Then he finds out the thing will only play Blu-ray disc's,  which of
cause he doesn't have,  and his $2 DVD collection have become obsolete.  So he whinges and moans for a week, then blames me, cos he's blown his cash, on something he can't
use.  And Hardly Normal won't take it back cos he used the box to start the BBQ.

If a bloke goes off and buys a completely unsuitable system without doing any research, then what can anyone do about it? It is very easy to do some research online but as the old saying goes." A fool and their money are easily parted"

[Drizt]

holdencaulfield2007, on Jan 2 2012, 07:37 PM, said:

If a bloke goes off and buys a completely unsuitable system without doing any research, then what can anyone do about it? It is very easy to do some research online but as the old saying goes." A fool and their money are easily parted"

My parents arent very good at the research bit... they didn't grow up using the net.  I cringe every time they tell me they bought something as I just know they paid overs or bought the wrong thing.

[myrantz]

POV, on Jan 1 2012, 05:00 PM, said:

This wasn't intended to be so much about people wasting money....the main point is that this guy has made a fortune selling stuff that he doesn't believe in, to people he thinks are ignorant and he doesn't see a problem, as well as to ponder if audio consumers are really unusually ignorant.

It's a job.. Earn enough keep to pay off the mortgage, feeds the kids, roof overhead, etc....

i.e. It's ok because [fill in the blanks]...

Same with this chap. It's ok because they are ignorant... Maybe he's right, maybe he's wrong.. At the end of the day, everybody is happy...
---
On a side note, maybe that's why I seldom have any happy encounters in the local hifi shops... A few months back I went to a local shop here - Spent ~10 minutes waiting for the guy, then another ~2 minutes looking at him inspecting the floor model and then quoted me the RRP and had the gall to say to me it's a great discount...

Half expecting it's this guy you're talking to...

Edited by myrantz, 03 January 2012 - 12:24 PM.

[Mining Man]

myrantz, on Jan 3 2012, 12:15 PM, said:

It's a job.. Earn enough keep to pay off the mortgage, feeds the kids, roof overhead, etc....

As an example, IMO not all policeman in WA are in it for the order.. Some like to dish out both law and order if you get the drift... The way they rationalise beating people up is usually - they are guilty of the crime anyway (and he believes in it). This is endemic in the system. Even the police commissioner himself sees fit to publicly release a guy's criminal records to justify why a "defenceless" person is being tasered.

i.e. It's ok because [fill in the blanks]...

Same with this chap. It's ok because they are ignorant... Maybe he's right, maybe he's wrong.. At the end of the day, everybody is happy...
---
On a side note, maybe that's why I seldom have any happy encounters in the local hifi shops... A few months back I went to a local shop here - Spent ~10 minutes waiting for the guy, then another ~2 minutes looking at him inspecting the floor model and then quoted me the RRP and had the gall to say to me it's a great discount...

Half expecting it's this guy you're talking to...

Poor form Treb. You really have to get over your disrespect for Law Enforcement (one of the three pillars of a civil society, along with Education and Health Care), or take it back to the Taser thread in OT.

The bit you've called a side note, is actually the bit that has a place in this thread. The rest is an opportunistic swipe at an institution, based on the arguably regrettable actions of a few.

[mr-happy-pants]

JohnA, on Jan 1 2012, 06:17 PM, said:

I don't need to justify my purchases to anyone, nor do i need to do any tests to to prove anything to anyone else here.

G'day John

I know what you mean, coz it's like that with cars too.

2 friends of mine both criticized me for how much (they presumed) I spent purchasing my current 2nd hand 325 coupe (not everyone's cup of tea).
That is until they realised it was less than they both spent on their chosen 2nd hand cars.

Neither have ever driven a BMW, but both presumed to have an opinion on their worth.

Ignorance isn't a sin; but acting on it is.

We choose how to earn it, we get to choose how to spend it.  

Edited by mr-happy-pants, 03 January 2012 - 12:41 PM.

[SDL]

POV, on Jan 1 2012, 09:40 PM, said:

Agreed....but I think that there is an element of that in all luxury/non essential sales arenas.  My mum will only buy BMW cars, she never even shops around.  The fact that they are overpriced, poorly built unreliable vehicles is irrelevant to her, she believes that driving a BMW is part of her 'image'.

Actually I think that BMW's are well built and incredibly reliable and that is my experience, so now we know you know nothing about cars    onto the audio. What really is an audiophile anyway? A lot of people kid themselves that they are some sort of authority on audio and yet have never heard properly live music played to know what they are comparing. At the end of the day, as others have said, may reasons people buy things: brand names, feel good factor, peer group admiration, sales people pushing, online/media reviews, their own ears, and some just like to have something that cost a shyte load so they can brag to their mates (I call this the American syndrome   ). But if the person is happy so be it.

As for selling gear, I would suspect there are a few possibilities. The person was being delibrately confrontational to gauge a response. Throwing up this type of argument in a safe situation is done by many people to find out what others think and whether the other person actually does know anything or is just being agreeable. The second is that he is just going through a period of doubt as his staff have let him down, sales are down, and he is a bit bitter and depressed about the whole audio sales market. the third is that he truly believes no difference exists and can live with the fact he just rips people off for a living in which case I wouldn't be going near his store.

[POV]

SDL, on Jan 3 2012, 01:08 PM, said:

Actually I think that BMW's are well built and incredibly reliable and that is my experience, so now we know you know nothing about cars    onto the audio. What really is an audiophile anyway? A lot of people kid themselves that they are some sort of authority on audio and yet have never heard properly live music played to know what they are comparing. At the end of the day, as others have said, may reasons people buy things: brand names, feel good factor, peer group admiration, sales people pushing, online/media reviews, their own ears, and some just like to have something that cost a shyte load so they can brag to their mates (I call this the American syndrome   ). But if the person is happy so be it.

As for selling gear, I would suspect there are a few possibilities. The person was being delibrately confrontational to gauge a response. Throwing up this type of argument in a safe situation is done by many people to find out what others think and whether the other person actually does know anything or is just being agreeable. The second is that he is just going through a period of doubt as his staff have let him down, sales are down, and he is a bit bitter and depressed about the whole audio sales market. the third is that he truly believes no difference exists and can live with the fact he just rips people off for a living in which case I wouldn't be going near his store.

Yes….always different points of view regarding anything.  My experience with BMWs have been a very enjoyable car to operate, but prone to breakdowns.  My mum has had 4 in a row now and every one has had multiple breakdowns and/or warranty repairs.  The issues with the immobiliser on her last 525 were really problematic, and the service from the dealer over here was enough to keep me away. Perhaps my reference is unusual, but I drive Subarus (and have done for years) and I have only ever used the warranty once across three vehicles and have never once had a breakdown…..

I firmly believe that in this circumstance it was the third of your above options, and I personally wouldn’t buy from him (but then it’s not a Perth shop that I’m referring to so unlikely to affect me.  I can say that there are a good number of people on this forum that have bought from the shop in question.

[myrantz]

Mining Man, on Jan 3 2012, 10:15 AM, said:

Poor form Treb. You really have to get over your disrespect for Law Enforcement (one of the three pillars of a civil society, along with Education and Health Care), or take it back to the Taser thread in OT.

Yes Mr Moderator.. Now you need to edit the bits you think is irrelevant...

Edit: By that I mean the things you quote.

Edited by myrantz, 03 January 2012 - 01:07 PM.

[MLXXX]

SDL, on Jan 3 2012, 12:38 PM, said:

the third is that he truly believes no difference exists and can live with the fact he just rips people off for a living in which case I wouldn't be going near his store.

The moral of this story seems to be that if you want to sell overpriced wine, paintings,* or hi-fi gear, ensure you never critically evaluate your trading stock with your palate, eyes, or your ears; or remain a person with undeveloped or insensitive senses. For if a buyer becomes aware you know they are not getting value for money, the buyer may take umbrage. It is probably better that a store owner remains ignorant.

Perhaps indeed that is how many hi-fi salesmen operate. I would suggest that to maintain their state of ignorance they would be best advised not to conduct double blind testing. They should also discourage their buyers from attempting blind testing. A simple approach is to encourage a belief that double blind testing is invalid. I think that is a fairly widely held view anyway, in a number of audiophile circles.

In television set retailing it is still common to see customers encouraged to purchase very expensive HDMI cables, and an expensive power line conditioner.

_______________

* I suggest that paintings are overpriced if they contain multiple flaws in conception and execution that most art lovers would regard as highly amateur and reflective of little skill and ability; and yet carry a price tag suggesting a superior or at least competent work of art.  Occasionally such overpriced paintings can be seen hanging in a doctor's surgery waiting room, for sale. They are typically contributed by local budding artists. Occasionally an unwitting purchaser ignorant in the visual arts will buy at the asking price, on the sole assumption that the high price reflects an adequate standard of artistry. They have been duped.  Then again, they made a risky assumption. There is an ethical question for the doctor as to whether to permit a grossly overpriced amateur painting to be hung in the surgery. The doctor could be assumed by patients to be endorsing the paintings in some way.

Edited by MLXXX, 03 January 2012 - 06:15 PM.

[Mining Man]

POV, on Jan 3 2012, 01:54 PM, said:

~
I firmly believe that in this circumstance it was the third of your above options, and I personally wouldn’t buy from him (but then it’s not a Perth shop that I’m referring to so unlikely to affect me.  I can say that there are a good number of people on this forum that have bought from the shop in question.

So it's:

• Not a Perth store
  
• Sells Denon
  
• Sells Krell

Couldn't be too many satisfying that criteria.

[Chill]

Not sure why it is a thing if some one selling High End HIFI is not into High End HIFI

I am sure there are heaps of people working in mines that  are "green"

People working in sport shops that do not excerse

People sell expensive cars that prefer public transport

only the lucky get to work where their passion also is !

[dantan]

Chill, on Jan 3 2012, 12:13 PM, said:

Not sure why it is a thing if some one selling High End HIFI is not into High End HIFI

I am sure there are heaps of people working in mines that  are "green"

People working in sport shops that do not excerse

People sell expensive cars that prefer public transport

only the lucky get to work where their passion also is !

I completely agree!

Dan.

[myrantz]

Chill, on Jan 3 2012, 12:13 PM, said:

Not sure why it is a thing if some one selling High End HIFI is not into High End HIFI

dantan, on Jan 3 2012, 12:24 PM, said:

I completely agree!

Granted it's a first world problem...

But ever heard of the phrase "never trust a skinny chef"?

Hifi is a passionate hobby after all... And the person doing the selling must be passionate, and believe in what they do, and know their stuffs.

Not just out there to say anything to take somebody's else hard earned money.

Edited by myrantz, 03 January 2012 - 03:12 PM.

[swordfish805]

myrantz, on Jan 3 2012, 04:03 PM, said:

Hifi is a passionate hobby after all... And the person doing the selling must be passionate, and believe in what they do, and know their stuffs.

Not just out there to say anything to take somebody's else hard earned money.

Well that counts out 98% of hi-fi stores and salespeople....

[swordfish805]

POV, on Jan 3 2012, 01:54 PM, said:

My experience with BMWs have been a very enjoyable car to operate, [snip] .... I drive Subarus (and have done for years)

Had to laugh - you do know the nickname of Subaru is "Japanese Beemer"?

[myrantz]

swordfish805, on Jan 3 2012, 02:16 PM, said:

Well that counts out 98% of hi-fi stores and salespeople....

True.. That 1-2%... Those probably will earn my business, if I can afford 'em that is...

It's hard to survive in this business I guess...

[POV]

swordfish805, on Jan 3 2012, 04:48 PM, said:

Had to laugh - you do know the nickname of Subaru is "Japanese Beemer"?

Nope...is that a top gear thing?

[MLXXX]

myrantz, on Jan 3 2012, 03:03 PM, said:

Hifi is a passionate hobby after all... And the person doing the selling must be passionate, and believe in what they do, and know their stuffs.

It will help sales if the sales person is passionate, but it may be best if they don't know their stuff too well. A superficial knowledge that a certain product is "outstanding" or "well thought of" may be sufficient to get the buyer to present their credit card.

Edited by MLXXX, 03 January 2012 - 06:16 PM.