150 replies to this topic

[myrantz]

Chill, on Jan 5 2012, 11:56 AM, said:

A Rolex or TAG or any other Swiss watch is no better made or at it prime function that a top line SEKO

Seiko?  Or is SEKO some new in thing I'm unaware of?

[Mining Man]

myrantz, on Jan 5 2012, 03:07 PM, said:

Seiko?  Or is SEKO some new in thing I'm unaware of?

Seiko.

Danny's spelling is atrocious at the best of times.

  (<-- that's at Chill, not treblid)



It's a good point though. There's nothing wrong with buying gear based on perceived build quality, aesthetics, decor value etc. It's not just about the sound.

Otherwise we'd all be happy with kajak's system.

(<-- and that one's for kajak)

Edited by Mining Man, 05 January 2012 - 02:18 PM.

[:)]

Chill, on Jan 5 2012, 02:56 PM, said:

A Rolex or TAG or any other Swiss watch is no better made or at it prime function that a top line SEKO

But people are happy to and sell them and buy them - there is more to luxury goods that basic function

This OP was about DIGITAL sources and to be fair while I do not agree that they all sound the same, I do personally agree that hyper expensive digital is not a big difference from midrange DIGITAL



I note (as reported in any case) he was not saying that speakers / amps or turntables are all the same !

whats high end anyway ? bet anyone you talk to might have different ideas about that. bit like the car example. are BMWs high end ...not if you drive ferraris and maseratis on other hand for someone who can only afford a budget compact even a 3 series bmw is going to look like high end. they probably all go the same at 60 kph   

you cant go on $$ amounts either. my denon av processor costs a lot more than 2ch pre analog amp

as with digital sources I too agree there is a point of diminishing returns. this point though can vary. but for my self when was buying a player demoing in the various price brackets I found what made sense to me. others will choose otherwise. I definitely dont agree with the all sources sound the same garbage. there are definite differences in different brands and especially the case when reach point of diminishing returns more often than not your looking at different aprpoaches rather than necessarily "better" and yes just pure audio quality isnt the only parameter am sure factoring into peoples purchases

but look I suspect we are navel gazing far too much as what was probably a little discusson in the OP. reading far more into it I suspect than intended. Some times peoples comments can be a bit matter of fact to off the cuff. For the moment and perhaps not meaning a great deal more to be dwelled upon..

[myrantz]

Mining Man, on Jan 5 2012, 12:16 PM, said:

Seiko.

Cool, not trying to correct spelling or anything . Apologies if it's perceived that way...

Seiko = Sei (exquisite) + Ko (craft)
Denon = Den (electrical) + Onkyo (beautiful sound)

Both very beautiful names IMO, and I have a thing for beautiful names (and how bad the translations can be in a different language). Hence the question. Just curious as there may be a SEKO that I'm unaware of.. And if so, what the meaning is...

Back to regular programme....

Edited by myrantz, 05 January 2012 - 03:02 PM.

[Chill]

myrantz, on Jan 5 2012, 04:02 PM, said:

Cool, not trying to correct spelling or anything . Apologies if it's perceived that way...

Seiko = Sei (exquisite) + Ko (craft)
Denon = Den (electrical) + Onkyo (beautiful sound)

Both very beautiful names IMO, and I have a thing for beautiful names (and how bad the translations can be in a different language). Hence the question. Just curious as there may be a SEKO that I'm unaware of.. And if so, what the meaning is...

Back to regular programme....

leve me lone a iam dlslexitix

[Highjinx]

Quite happy with my low to mid end set up........however if I came into ooodles of disposable cash, I'd lash out on an MBL system with an esoteric looking turntable such as a Transrotor Artus FMD....even if it didn't sound any better than what I have!

I can see my self walking into the sound room and just admiring the gear.......a heck of a large part of the enjoyment. Part Tech part Art.

[myrantz]

Chill, on Jan 5 2012, 01:11 PM, said:

leve me lone a iam dlslexitix

LOL.. Sorry .... I love that, and I get it without grammar and spelling...

Edited by myrantz, 05 January 2012 - 04:54 PM.

[Chicken Man]

myrantz, on Jan 5 2012, 03:45 PM, said:

LOL.. Sorry .... I love that, and I get it without grammar and spelling...

Folks that rely on grammar spelling for meaning, I guess it will be the same folks who rely on their hoky poky mics and computers instead of their five senses..

You know who you are . Your baits over 3 forums are hard to miss.  


Seems many like MBL... The looks, or is there something else?

My criteria is safety and sound (bling is good, but something I can overlook if the sound is good)..  

If it's not just about the sound... What is it about?

Treblid, you are not going to provoke any animosity in this thread are you ?

Please, just keep it respectable and we'll all get along.

C.M

[Drizt]

Chicken Man, on Jan 5 2012, 05:44 PM, said:

Treblid, you are not going to provoke any animosity in this thread are you ?

Please, just keep it respectable and we'll all get along.

C.M

He can't help it, he is a troll

[Highjinx]

myrantz, on Jan 5 2012, 04:45 PM, said:

Seems many like MBL... The looks, or is there something else?

My criteria is safety and sound (bling is good, but something I can overlook if the sound is good)..

If it's not just about the sound... What is it about?

Never had the oportunity to hear them.......but I'm sure the looks would flip a swith in my brain, that made me think and 'hear' that they offered so much more!

[BladeRnR]

Chicken Man, on Jan 5 2012, 01:02 PM, said:

Well quite frankly, I have no sympathy at all for those 'golden ears' being ripped off by salespeople if their 'supposed status' as audiophiles is founded on overly priced equipment, which might offer little extra in the way of useful benefit but rather is as a means to impress.  
C.M

Well said C.M. I once subscribed to an American magazine called "Audio & Video Interiors" (I'm sure many here know the magazine - I once drooled over each issue as it came available). As my audio knowledge increased over the years I realised that many of the systems featured were merely the result of gross, unnecessary overspend. Many of the comments made by owners in those pages stated "I left it all to the experts but I did have some input into the decor"...

It soon became apparent to me that sometimes Fat Wallets were often commensurate with Fat Heads.

Blade

Edited by BladeRnR, 05 January 2012 - 05:39 PM.

[myrantz]

Highjinx, on Jan 5 2012, 03:14 PM, said:

Never had the oportunity to hear them.......but I'm sure the looks would flip a swith in my brain, that made me think and 'hear' that they offered so much more!

You certainly have expensive tastes... Now we can apply MLXXX's research and find out how measurements relate to the qualities you desire...

TBH, I don't even know how MBL speakers works ... If I have the chance will certainly give it another go, but I think the retailer will simply kick me out ....

[Chicken Man]

BladeRnR, on Jan 5 2012, 05:35 PM, said:

Well said C.M. I once subscribed to an American magazine called "Audio & Video Interiors" (I'm sure many here know the magazine - I once drooled over each issue as it came available). As my audio knowledge increased over the years I realised that many of the systems featured were merely the result of gross, unnecessary overspend. Many of the comments made by owners in those pages stated "I left it all to the experts but I did have some input into the decor"...

It soon became apparent to me that sometimes Fat Wallets were often commensurate with Fat Heads.

Blade

In such a circumstance, one thing that money cannot buy is the knowledge and experience gained through having to put it together yourself. You cannot buy such passion, it's something you do for yourself.

To quote.....
" For where a man's treasure is, there be his heart also."  

C.M

Edited by Chicken Man, 05 January 2012 - 06:35 PM.

[MLXXX]

myrantz, on Jan 5 2012, 05:54 PM, said:

Now we can apply MLXXX's research and find out how measurements relate to the qualities you desire...

A flat neutral response from a power amp is what I desire.  As for loudspeakers, I audition by ear, but I read reviews first to help narrow the range to promising loudspeaker systems within my budget range.  (I don't design loudspeakers. Am a mere consumer.)

Loudspeaker systems are fraught with design compromises and measure very poorly: high THD, IMD, frequency response all over the place, strange impulse responses.  Evaluation of the overall result is best done with an audition, playing the genre(s) of music one intends to use the loudspeaker system for.  It's a question of which design compromise is least offensive, to one's ears, within one's budget range. It's a very important function of hi-fi retailers to provide a listening room and a range of different loudspeaker systems to listen to and compare.

[Puss in Books]

POV, on Jan 5 2012, 12:44 PM, said:

Perfect summary, and yes the post that you quote totally misses the point.  No-one is suggesting that the dealer should only be committed to high end gear, and this has nothing to do with hi-fi snobbery ( no idea where you are going with that)

The question I have posed is more of ‘is it okay (ethically) to market, sell, put your name behind products that you believe are a ‘total’ rip-off?’   There have been several posts saying that it happens a lot ( and the inferred message of such posts is that it is therefore ok).   I’m much the same in that I find it sad, but of course I’m not surprised.

POV, on Jan 5 2012, 01:12 PM, said:

I really don’t see how so called audio snobbery has any relevance to this discussion.

Well POV, you titled the thread "Audiophiles...Are we the most ignorant consumers around", not "is it okay (ethically) to market, sell, put your name behind products that you believe are a ‘total’ rip-off?’".  Also, many posts here seem to equate  this disdain for hi-end equip to a lack of passion for audio.  Personally I find this assumption to be a type of snobbery.  So I think my comments are relevant thankyou, and obviously so.

[kajak12]

MLXXX, on 05 January 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

QUOTE (myrantz @ Jan 5 2012, 05:54 PM)
Now we can apply MLXXX's research and find out how measurements relate to the qualities you desire...

A flat neutral response from a power amp is what I desire.  As for loudspeakers, I audition by ear, but I read reviews first to help narrow the range to promising loudspeaker systems within my budget range.  (I don't design loudspeakers. Am a mere consumer.)

Loudspeaker systems are fraught with design compromises and measure very poorly: high THD, IMD, frequency response all over the place, strange impulse responses.  Evaluation of the overall result is best done with an audition, playing the genre(s) of music one intends to use the loudspeaker system for.  It's a question of which design compromise is least offensive, to one's ears, within one's budget range. It's a very important function of hi-fi retailers to provide a listening room and a range of different loudspeaker systems to listen to and compare.

Sorry off topic
just for you to munch over http://www.partsconn...f/hft_facts.pdf

[MLXXX]

kajak12, on 10 January 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

Sorry off topic
just for you to munch over http://www.partsconn...f/hft_facts.pdf

Some amazingly high resistance figures there.  For example

Fuse, T 3,15 Amp. 6,3 x 32 mm.  [Apparently carrying 3 Amps as a test current. ]

Standard, Glass Fuse resistances measured as 58ohm, 56ohms, and [in holder] 67ohms.

It surprised me a holder could contribute about 10 ohms. Suggests to me the fuse was operating at the outer edge of its capacity, severely overheated, and with insufficient ventilation.  Fuses need to be derated for high ambient temperatures and where air circulation is limited.

I note that the power dissipated W would be I² R = 3 ² x 56 = 504W.  So the measurements are suggesting that the fuse is dissipating around 500 Watts!! Doesn't that strike you as odd, kajak? It strikes me as very odd.

I had been under the impression that the following positions were generally true:

1. Most fuses have a very low resistance and therefore introduce

very little voltage drop in normal circuit operation.

(quoted from the pdf at http://www.jaycar.co...ed/fuseprmr.pdf )

2. Voltage drop

A voltage drop across the fuse is usually provided by its manufacturer. Resistance may change when a fuse becomes hot due to energy dissipation while conducting higher currents. This resulting voltage drop should be taken into account, particularly when using a fuse in low-voltage applications. Voltage drop often is not significant in more traditional wire type fuses, but can be significant in other technologies such as resettable fuse (PPTC) type fuses.

(quoted from http://en.wikipedia....l)#Voltage_drop)


As for manufacturers' data sheets, the first one I found was at http://www.belfuse.c...asheets/5TT.pdf  For the slow blow fuse rated at 3.15 Amps you can see a voltage drop of 0.22V, an inconsequentially low figure at mains voltages.  We can calculate the resistance R as  E / I = .22V/3.15A = 0.698 ohms, i.e. less than one ohm. The cold resistance is quoted as 0.038 ohms.

So I'm a bit confused by the data you have linked to, kajak. Some of the fuses appear to have remarkably high resistances.  I wonder how representative of real life the measurements are.

[Late edit, to incorporate paragraph indents.]

Edited by MLXXX, 22 January 2012 - 11:21 PM.

[Chicken Man]

kajak12, on 10 January 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

Sorry off topic
just for you to munch over http://www.partsconn...f/hft_facts.pdf

Well, I downloaded that self serving .PDF and I can tell you not one of those 'high resistance' fuses would last a second or two in a Mains connected power amplifier. It would vapourize almost instantly power was connected.

So what's the point of the argument ? Any resistive fuse would go 'open' in short order, particularly at switch on where there is a current surge to charge the storage capacitors in the power supply. This 'capacitive' current surge is reflected in the primary of the Mains transformer depending on the ' turns ratio '. Any fuse with anything more than marginal resistance would blow almost immediately.
The .pdf is bogus as is the whole concept of marketable Mains power fuses making an audible difference in properly designed power amplifiers. Anyone with any technical expertize could see it was just rubbish marketing for their benefit.

Me thinks this is just a soapbox to engage in another 'Advice on Power Cords' debacle. Next we'll have Treblid giving us his version of whatever.

C.M  

[Drizt]

Chicken Man, on 12 January 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

Next we'll have Treblid giving us his version of whatever.

mummy, make the bad man stop

[myrantz]

Chicken Man, on 12 January 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

Next we'll have Treblid giving us his version of whatever.

Chicken. I don't want to have anything to do with you whatsoever... I do not care for your opinions, neither do I value them...  

So I will appreciate if you don't reference me directly when you stand on that little soapbox of yours and act like you know what you're talking about... Indirect reference OTOH is ok..

As for the others, I'd tell you when I eventually have the time to try these fuses myself .... Never try them before, so no comments.

[Drizt]

myrantz, on 13 January 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

so no comments.

That would be a change

[myrantz]

Drizt, on 13 January 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

That would be a change

Have you ever seen me commenting much on things I don't know about ?

Gotta say, love the new features of the forum . It is a lot more expressive...

[gone_bush]

Treb you'd better get that chart out. At the rate you're going you going to blow a fuse!

[Drizt]

myrantz, on 13 January 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

Have you ever seen me commenting much on things I don't know about ?

lol, I would say most of the time.  Especially in topics about measurements, blind testing, accuracy.  I wish you would apply your rule of not commenting in those topics.

[BladeRnR]

An interesting Shunyata Research visit and interview. I actually found the read quite fascinating and learned quite a bit. I suggest approaching the article with an open mind.

Shunyata Research visit & interview - TheAudioBeat.

Thanks to my Brother Simon for the heads up on this one.

Blade

Edit - This link was from Off-Topic apparently (JohnA).

Edited by BladeRnR, 17 January 2012 - 10:02 AM.