150 replies to this topic

[POV]

Just got back from a champagne breakfast in Fremantle (yes....it's going to be a long day).  It just so happened that on my table was the owner/proprietor of a well known Hifi/HT shop.  We got talking (of course) and after a couple of champagnes he opened up a little, told me that he thinks audiophiles are some the most ignorant consumers around.

He says that in his opinion, all high end two channel equipment is a total waste of money in digital systems.  He says that he believes it is impossible to pick the difference between solid state amplifiers operated within audible distortion limits, that DACs cannot be reliably identified, and that high end CD players are one of the biggest rip-offs on the face of the planet, and that ultra low jitter clocks are the latest con that has taken hold.

He also told me that he has conducted some double blind testing with his staff between a high end Krell CD player/amplifier combo and a Denon BD player/AVR combo and that none of them could even reliably pick a preference, let alone which was which.  He went on to say that he intends to officially publish this info sometime in the future...

I put him on the spot and asked why he sold equipment he dbelievebelive in....to which he replied that there is a mthereforeerfore he will supply it, however he always cautions new customers to use their money wisely in digital systems....



Disclaimer: Not trying to start (yet another) arguement about blind testing here.  Just an interesting discussion topic...perhaps.

PS- I haven't named the person or store deliberately out of respect.

Edited by POV, 31 December 2011 - 03:23 PM.

[Chopsus]

Sound and Vision is like art.

Go with what you like - not what some wanker or techspurt tells you you should like.

Double blind testing of this sort of thing is ridiculous if the test-ees (as opposed to testies) have no prior experience of the things being tested - IF the test is between your own loved system and another, then it might mean something.

[:)]

hit the nail on the head chops. we are blessed with a brain and ears to all form our own judgments and purchase what we want. people buy things for whole host of reasons. I buy what I do for mine. far be it for me or anyone else to pass judgement on the validity of peoples purchases...

[Drizt]

Everyone is entitled to their subjective opinion.....

I have to somewhat agree with the guy on some of his points.  If people want to find out the truth (or get closer to the truth) then let them blind test.  If people are happy to go with their gut instincts, let them.

I don't see what the problem is.

I predict this thread will go well

[709er]

How many of us listen to our CD's in 2 channel?
Having grown up with it, and now having a choice, I much prefer listening to cd's in a multichannel format, though I have complete respect for those who are 2ch devotees!
Still have all my vinyl, though it's not seen the light of day for around 16 years  

[Chopsus]

709er, on Dec 31 2011, 05:32 PM, said:

How many of us listen to our CD's in 2 channel?
Having grown up with it, and now having a choice, I much prefer listening to cd's in a multichannel format, though I have complete respect for those who are 2ch devotees!
Still have all my vinyl, though it's not seen the light of day for around 16 years  

I am much the same but do admit that a great 2 channel system kicks a great multi-channel system when it comes to listening to 2 channel source material in 2 channels.

7 channel enhancement of average mastered CD's sound far superior, but the better the quality of the CD (or 2 channel SACD) the narrower the gap.

The last time I bothered setting up my turntable and connecting it to my system I WAS presently surprised as how good that old vinyl still sounds.

[MLXXX]

POV, on Dec 31 2011, 02:45 PM, said:

He says that in his opinion, all high end two channel equipment is a total waste of money in digital systems.  He says that he believes it is impossible to pick the difference between solid state amplifiers operated within audible distortion limits, that DACs cannot be reliably identified, and that high end CD players are one of the biggest rip-offs on the face of the planet, and that ultra low jitter clocks are the latest con that has taken hold.

He also told me that he has conducted some double blind testing with his staff between a high end Krell CD player/amplifier combo and a Denon BD player/AVR combo and that none of them could even reliably pick a preference, let alone which was which.  He went on to say that he intends to officially publish this info sometime in the future...

I'd suggest that even it it does prove possible to distinguish the sound from two level matched sources playing the same material, using different audiophile quality amplifiers or DACs, the difference is likely to be slight, and much less than the influence of other factors in the recording-reproduction chain, such as the choice and positioning of loudspeakers in the listening room, or the positioning of microphones in the recording auditorium; or if using Digital Room Correction in the listening room, the effect of the DRC.

As for DACs used to reconstruct an analogue source sampled at  44.1kHz (as found on a conventional CD), it is well known there are different engineering solutions or "filtering options" for the treatment of the higher frequencies approaching the Nyquist limit. Options are sometimes user selectable. If listening very carefully on an A B comparison basis and changing the filtering options, slight differences may be audible (as can be verified on a double blind testing basis). I have tested myself in that situation and I found I could detect differences. (I preferred a gentle roll-off rather than a very extended response and sharp roll-off.)  I note this is a less critical issue at a sample rate of 48kHz.

I think an audiophile dealer would need to proceed very carefully as many audiophiles refuse to accept the validity of double blind testing in an audiophile context (though not querying its use in other contexts, such as drug testing).

As for jitter, this was indeed an issue in the mid-80s. Why it would be an issue with a medium priced CD player in 2011 is hard to fathom. (RAM for buffering, crystal controlled processing for clocking out of the buffer contents and for the DAC processes, stabilised power supplies.)

[BladeRnR]

709er, on Dec 31 2011, 05:32 PM, said:

How many of us listen to our CD's in 2 channel?
Having grown up with it, and now having a choice, I much prefer listening to cd's in a multichannel format, though I have complete respect for those who are 2ch devotees!
Still have all my vinyl, though it's not seen the light of day for around 16 years  

+1 on that one Ruth. My personal reference disks are all SACD's and my preference is for Multi-Channel Audio (Be they authored for 5.1 or contrived via DSP Processing).

That is not to say that 2-Channel is inferior. Some of the most memorable audio experiences I have had are from superb 2-Channel systems. However, from my observations & experience anything that capable in the 2-Channel arena costs an arm & a leg (And perhaps 1 of your Kidneys).

Blade

[bassett]

POV, on Dec 31 2011, 03:45 PM, said:

He also told me that he has conducted some double blind testing with his staff between a high end Krell CD player/amplifier combo and a Denon BD player/AVR combo and that none of them could even reliably pick a preference, let alone which was which.  He went on to say that he intends to officially publish this info sometime in the future...

This sounds about right,  And he's not asking someone in the street to judge the difference, he used his own stuff,  who presumably
know what there talking about when it comes down to  selling  the stuff.

He's also correct when it comes to the mind-set of Audiofools,  Most of-um are on ego trips of epic proportions, and daring to question
there thinking, brings instant exile, to who know's where.  

It's all very nice if you can afford to pay over the top prices for your "kit", but the days of buying high-end for investment have long
gone. The resale of this stuff is something like 30% of the new price,  if you can find someone who wants it in the first  place.

But the guy's in business to make money,  So sure he stocks the high priced stuff and if someone wants it, Who is he to say no ,

Did you by any chance discuss the merits and price of  "Wet String"  The mark up on that line of snake oil is horrific for the buyer, but
very rewording for the seller,  just ask Uncle Gerry.

Edited by bassett, 01 January 2012 - 11:48 AM.

[JohnA]

im sorry if you cant tell the difference between a cheap cd player and a good quality one, you have issues somewhere along the line.

DAC's are definately getting closer in quality, i recall trying a dac that was worth more then my cd player and it was virtually impossible to tell the difference sighted, that i would even bother with a blind test as i would never pick them apart.

Good AVR's and 2 channels pres are getting harder to tell apart, no doubt, but if you know your system well enough, you should be able to pick them.

I have also conducted many cable tests at home and the only time i was able to pick one was on the TT. Did a quick blind test where i left the room and others changed cables and was able to pick it.

As far as i am concerned, one should never perform these tests on systems they do not know very well, and you also need to know what to listen for.

There are certain songs i only use, songs i have gotten to know very well, and can usually pick a difference instantly. If i cant, its not a product i will purchase, if i can, a blind test will be conducted, or i will purchase purely because i like the product.

Anyways, can see this thread turning into another audiofool bashing exercise , and no matter what we post will just be laughed at.

So have your fun peoples

[Chopsus]

JohnA, on Jan 1 2012, 02:54 PM, said:

Anyways, can see this thread turning into another audiofool bashing exercise , and no matter what we post will just be laughed at.

So have your fun peoples

Not if we all agree that we live in a world where we can each CHOOSE what we waste spend our money on and the wise among us buy what we like the sound of and not what some salesman tells us sounds best.

[Drizt]

Chopsus, on Jan 1 2012, 03:07 PM, said:

Not if we all agree that we live in a world where we can each CHOOSE what we waste spend our money on and the wise among us buy what we like the sound of and not what some salesman tells us sounds best.

Sound advice really.  I don't have any problem with the way anyone makes their purchasing decisions.  Whatever makes you happy is good enough for me.

I do hate it when people **** can peoples new purchases (for whatever reason), its just rude.  Can't people just be happy for others being happy?

[Mining Man]

Well said John.

I actually like this bit the best:

JohnA, on Jan 1 2012, 02:54 PM, said:

~
... or i will purchase purely because i like the product.
~

I think some people are far too reluctant to admit they might actually spend money on something because of the way owning it makes them feel, regardless of whether it can be scientifically verified that said product does anything another one can't.

I'll readily admit, aesthetics is more than a small part of what I value in high end electronics. I feel good when I see my equipment, without turning it on.

Call it shallow, materialistic, whatever. I earned the money, I spent the money. And it makes me feel good.

[Drizt]

Mining Man, on Jan 1 2012, 04:46 PM, said:

Well said John.

I actually like this bit the best:

I think some people are far too reluctant to admit they might actually spend money on something because of the way owning it makes them feel, regardless of whether it can be scientifically verified that said product does anything another one can't.

I'll readily admit, aesthetics is more than a small part of what I value in high end electronics. I feel good when I see my equipment, without turning it on.

Call it shallow, materialistic, whatever. I earned the money, I spent the money. And it makes me feel good.

Great post, I whole heartedly concur

[...]

Mining Man, on Jan 1 2012, 04:46 PM, said:

Call it shallow, materialistic, whatever. I earned the money, I spent the money. And it makes me feel good.............without turning it on.

And of course if you don't use it, it'll last a lot longer too!  

[MLXXX]

JohnA, on Jan 1 2012, 01:54 PM, said:

Good AVR's and 2 channels pres are getting harder to tell apart, no doubt, but if you know your system well enough, you should be able to pick them.

But so what? If the difference is audible but only slight, is it a material difference?  Is it worth pursuing? Could money be more usefully spent elsewhere?

Here are some material effects for my ears:-

• I find the difference between DAB+ at 80kbps as used by the ABC for Classic FM, and the analogue FM sound as received with an ordinary AVR,  material.  The DAB+ sound to my ears is hollow, changeable, lacking in verve and "bight", bland and artificial in the treble, and "constricted".  I can hear these deficiencies on very modest loudspeaker systems. I am easily bored listening to the DAB+.
  
• My local community classical music DAB+ broadcaster, MBS light, use only 64kbps nominal. The sound is low in noise, and neat and tidy, but uninspiring.
  
• On television I hear distracting artifacts in the low bitrate audio used for some of the SD channels (such as GO!).
  
• Years ago, vinyl discs played with good quality cartridges sounded distorted to my ears. That was a material difference compared with good open reel recordings, or CDs on good equipment. [Very early CD players sounded poor to my ears, but later models sounded far in advance of vinyl discs. I know some people swear by vinyl, but it holds no appeal for my ears.]

[JohnA]

MLXXX, on Jan 1 2012, 06:58 PM, said:

But so what? If the difference is audible but only slight, is it a material difference?  Is it worth pursuing? Could money be more usefully spent elsewhere?

To me and many others it is.
I need to decide if any small change is worth the asking price, and as we know, we get to a point of very little return for your $

I just dont listen for tonal differences. Its a complet package and this is where the 2 channel pre's win out every time IMHO
They have better dynamics, a wider or deeper soundstage with greater seperation of instruments. The singer i have heard from blended in with the band to in front of to behind of....(pick your flavour)

Just recently i did a comparison with 3 phono stages ranging from $3.5k to $8k

they were all good, 2 were very close, with slightly different presentations.

Some of us chase to get the last bit of detail from our systems, others dont care and thats fair enough also.

I dont see the need to ridicule these people based on what they spend on their systems.
Its a bit like those who cannot afford prestige cars, have never driven one, but feel the need to bag them out.

I would love to know how many people that laugh at expensive equipment have actually tried them?
They see a price and to them, only an audiofool will purchase that. You could get the same result from a product worth 1/4 of that.
Well have they tried it to be sure. Most likely not.

As vinyl holds no appeal to your ears, the same for me with digital.
I just sold my esoteric cd player and have no intention of replacing it with any other digital player, as vinyl is where its at for me.

I have done all my room treatments, purchased the speakers that worked best in my room and electronics to match. Each componet currently in use was trialed in home and the best sounding one to me was purchased.

I dont need to justify my purchases to anyone, nor do i need to do any tests to to prove anything to anyone else here.
But just like i dont come on here and say, geez what a crap system that is (because its only worth $3000. I mean how am i to know its no good) i, and i am sure others dont appreciate these constant threads about so called audiofools and how they waste their money on crap

Anyways, this is my last post on the matter, and this is one of the main reasons i dont post on these forums as much any more

[Drizt]

Great post JohnA.

There is a time and a place for putting opinions forward.  If someone asks for an opinion (a vs. b or what should I buy) then it is pretty much open slather.  But if someone is starting a thread to share their latest purchase or creation etc. then they really shouldn't have to put up with the 'why did you waste your money on that' ..... or 'you could have got 'z' at 1/5 the price'... etc.

[POV]

This wasn't intended to be so much about people wasting money....the main point is that this guy has made a fortune selling stuff that he doesn't believe in, to people he thinks are ignorant and he doesn't see a problem, as well as to ponder if audio consumers are really unusually ignorant.

Personally I agree with JohnA re not needing to justify anything to anyone apart from oneself.  I'm comfortable with the decisions I've made.  I must admit to finding the Denon/Krell blind comparison very interesting if true....

Edited by POV, 01 January 2012 - 07:04 PM.

[Chopsus]

POV, on Jan 1 2012, 08:00 PM, said:

to ponder if audio consumers are really unusually ignorant.

This is going to sound snobby, but the reality is that the "Average Joe" audio consumer  IS ignorant and many of them do walk into dealers with a brand name instead of their ears because their fellow Dr's, Lawyer's or Indian Chiefs told them that was the best brand to have .... I dare say this is the type of wanker that Steve(?) was referring to at breakfast and he'd be dumb not to take their money as they clearly deserve it.

[yorac]

I would say the the seller referred to by the OP is clearly not using the right power cords.................

Edited by yorac, 01 January 2012 - 08:30 PM.

[MLXXX]

JohnA, on Jan 1 2012, 06:17 PM, said:

As vinyl holds no appeal to your ears, the same for me with digital.
I just sold my esoteric cd player and have no intention of replacing it with any other digital player, as vinyl is where its at for me.

Perhaps you create an exception for single bit digital used with SACDs, or for high bitrate digital such as 96kHz.  Otherwise where would you source vinyl discs these days produced with a non-digital process? They would be few and far between.

Vinyl discs from the 1970s would offer the sound of reel to reel tape recorders. Interestingly open reel tape recorders used a high frequency bias current to overcome magnetic hysteresis (a bit like AM radio with its modulated carrier wave, or the dither used to produce 16 bit audio from 24 bit audio).

POV, on Jan 1 2012, 07:00 PM, said:

This wasn't intended to be so much about people wasting money....the main point is that this guy has made a fortune selling stuff that he doesn't believe in, to people he thinks are ignorant and he doesn't see a problem, as well as to ponder if audio consumers are really unusually ignorant.

It is an occupational hazzard. The same applies to restaurants that charge over a thousand dollars for some of their bottles of wine.  If the customer is prepared to pay a high price, why should the restaurateur not sell at that price? Champagnes are very difficult to tell apart and yet the customer will be paying $100 a glass or more in some instances. I know a restaurant in Fortitude Valley, Brisbane, that stocks many wines exceeding $1,000 a bottle.  What percentage markup the restaurant makes, I have no idea.

[POV]

Chopsus, on Jan 1 2012, 06:59 PM, said:

This is going to sound snobby, but the reality is that the "Average Joe" audio consumer  IS ignorant and many of them do walk into dealers with a brand name instead of their ears because their fellow Dr's, Lawyer's or Indian Chiefs told them that was the best brand to have .... I dare say this is the type of wanker that Steve(?) was referring to at breakfast and he'd be dumb not to take their money as they clearly deserve it.

Agreed....but I think that there is an element of that in all luxury/non essential sales arenas.  My mum will only buy BMW cars, she never even shops around.  The fact that they are overpriced, poorly built unreliable vehicles is irrelevant to her, she believes that driving a BMW is part of her 'image'.

[POV]

Double.

Edited by POV, 01 January 2012 - 08:46 PM.

[POV]

Chopsus, on Jan 1 2012, 06:59 PM, said:

This is going to sound snobby, but the reality is that the "Average Joe" audio consumer  IS ignorant and many of them do walk into dealers with a brand name instead of their ears because their fellow Dr's, Lawyer's or Indian Chiefs told them that was the best brand to have .... I dare say this is the type of wanker that Steve(?) was referring to at breakfast and he'd be dumb not to take their money as they clearly deserve it.

Oh...good guess.  Not Steve though!

Edited by POV, 01 January 2012 - 08:55 PM.