So ill start out saying i know next to nothing about audio.
Backstory:
So i finished a degree or two and decided to kill some time over the summer renovating a bungalow/outhouse in my backyard that has been used for storage for about 20 years. During the clean up i found an old toshiba amplifier of my mothers. My google-fu revealed that this is a 30+ year old receiver manufactured between 1973-82; the: Toshiba Stereo Receiver SA-420 which features 25W per channel. I like its style, particularly its vintage feel and as this will be a continuing motif through the renovated outbuilding which will be set-up somewhat like a 60/70's bar. As such ive decided to dust it off and buy it a pair of new speakers, that is if at all possible.
First Note of Confusion:
Power ratings of amplifiers is something that im finding quite confusing as the internet teaches me that this amp is 25W per channel while all i can see on the back of the amp is '240V 50Htz and 180W - i imagine that is regarding the PSU?' i dont quite understand these discrepancies or how they limit my choice in speakers but thats what i am enquiring about. Assuming that the 180W is the PSU, does this mean that any speaker connected to the amp will draw a maximum of 25W, or will it draw more giving risk that the amp will blow up?
What im After:
For the audiofiles out there im sorry i cant quite articulate what i want in any other way, sorry for the cringe inducing description: The system will only be for music (from folk to tech house and classical i listen to it all), i want to play it loud enough to dance to with clear and strong bass but also clear for the parts that are not bass (mids and highs?).
For the record i did hook up the floorstanding speakers of mum and dads yamaha 5.1 (6 Ohm, 80-125W) and it went allright, convincing me that a pair of floorstanding speakers would suffice. However, reading into these things has been disconcerting as i read a lot that book-shelf speakers may well be the way to go, lending further to my confusion.
Getting Ahead of Myself:
I was looking at buying the following, after testing mum and dads speakers:
KEF C5 $564
Cambridge Audio S30 Bookshelfs $350
where $564 was the upper end of the budget.
Getting Real:
If good bass, loud music, $550 and a vintage amp are mutually exclusive events, then im willing to spend up to $700 on a new system in which case any advice on that would also be welcomed.
The Bottom Line:
So can i get the suggested speakers for my old amp, can anyone see a problem (i.e. 25W pc) can anyone make further recommendations on where i should go from here?
0
Speakers For An Old Amp I Found.
Started by
Klawrence
, Dec 09 2011 11:51 PM
9 replies to this topic
#2
mttel
-
- Member
-
- 281 posts
DTV Forums Member
Posted 10 December 2011 - 09:54 AM
I will attempt to answer some of the questions raised from experience and limited knowledge.
240V 50Htz and 180W - this confirms that the unit is suited to Australia (240Volts, 50 hertz) and that the unit will draw 180W of power. That fact that the unit is rated at 25W per channel is reflective of the fact that the 25W rating is likely to be more realistic indication of the output than you will see on current/modern units (for example I have a modern yamaha AVR that is rated at 105W per channel on the box but realistic output is probably closer to 35W per channel). The difference between the 180W draw and 50W total output is the efficieny of converting the electrical power.
I have a similar old amp set up in a patio area nominally 10mx5m, open on two sides. I have a couple of book shelf size outdoor speakers and have used these for a teenagers party (used tarps to enclose the area) quite successfully. Gets a bit strained/distorted when the volume is max out but ok as long as the volume is no more than 70%.
In terms of speakers what you want is speakers that are identified as high sensitivity, something greater than 90dB would be ideal. This will give you a higher sound level for the same energy input from the amp.
Getting good bass, loud music, $550 and a vintage amp are not necessarily mutually exclusive events but you need to be realistic that this will not put out the sound levels that you get down the pub or at a club. Well it might for a little while but chances are something will give either the amp or distortion will blow the speaker.
If you are not to concerned about sound quality then something like this could be worth a look
Jaycar Party Speaker
Alternatively you will always do better on the second hand market. Option are on this forum, stereo net but most likely your local trading post or gumtree will yeild some crakcer deals.
best of luck.
ps (edit) another option would be to grab a cheap second hand powered sub and some reasonable bookshelfs, then you get good music quality for general listening and can crank the sub for the party bass without killing the amp
240V 50Htz and 180W - this confirms that the unit is suited to Australia (240Volts, 50 hertz) and that the unit will draw 180W of power. That fact that the unit is rated at 25W per channel is reflective of the fact that the 25W rating is likely to be more realistic indication of the output than you will see on current/modern units (for example I have a modern yamaha AVR that is rated at 105W per channel on the box but realistic output is probably closer to 35W per channel). The difference between the 180W draw and 50W total output is the efficieny of converting the electrical power.
I have a similar old amp set up in a patio area nominally 10mx5m, open on two sides. I have a couple of book shelf size outdoor speakers and have used these for a teenagers party (used tarps to enclose the area) quite successfully. Gets a bit strained/distorted when the volume is max out but ok as long as the volume is no more than 70%.
In terms of speakers what you want is speakers that are identified as high sensitivity, something greater than 90dB would be ideal. This will give you a higher sound level for the same energy input from the amp.
Getting good bass, loud music, $550 and a vintage amp are not necessarily mutually exclusive events but you need to be realistic that this will not put out the sound levels that you get down the pub or at a club. Well it might for a little while but chances are something will give either the amp or distortion will blow the speaker.
If you are not to concerned about sound quality then something like this could be worth a look
Jaycar Party Speaker
Alternatively you will always do better on the second hand market. Option are on this forum, stereo net but most likely your local trading post or gumtree will yeild some crakcer deals.
best of luck.
ps (edit) another option would be to grab a cheap second hand powered sub and some reasonable bookshelfs, then you get good music quality for general listening and can crank the sub for the party bass without killing the amp
Edited by mttel, 10 December 2011 - 01:20 PM.
#3
Klawrence
-
- Member
-
- 29 posts
DTV Forums Member
Posted 11 December 2011 - 08:39 AM
Cheers mttel, that clears quite a lot up for me. I think i've realised that if i am to go the hi-fi route i want to do it properly with something that is more upgradable, new and ultimately independent of this old receiver. That said, im coming around on the the Jaycar speaker suggestion and will definitely look into matching those with my old receiver, ill let you know how it all goes shortly.
#4
blairy
-
- Member
-
- 1,821 posts
DTV Forums Member
Posted 11 December 2011 - 09:07 AM
Couple of more thoughts...
Most speakers today are for home theatre that uses a sub. Consequently many speakers are not full range as they rely on the sub for the lower frequencies (LFE). Full range (and I'm sure others have differing views) is something like 20Hz to 20KHz (or maybe alittle higher). I'd urge getting speakers that go down as close as possible to 20Hz to give you that low end/bass sound. In my home theatre I'm runnning full range speakers I bought in 1980 and I've never bothered with a sub.
The other thinig that occurs to me is your sources. I still have my old stereo amp from 1980. Compared to modern equipment is has a very limited number of inputs and is intended for use with turntables and tape decks. At one point I used the AUX input for CD (and even DVD) players. The other inputs are not suitable (must confess I'm not sure why). Your receiver is a little older. If you want to use a CD player you might want to research this a little and make sure your AUX input can take a CD output.
As mentioned above, you might be better off tracking downa vintage pair of speakers second hand; mind you I don't think I'd ever part with mine
Good luck
blairy
Most speakers today are for home theatre that uses a sub. Consequently many speakers are not full range as they rely on the sub for the lower frequencies (LFE). Full range (and I'm sure others have differing views) is something like 20Hz to 20KHz (or maybe alittle higher). I'd urge getting speakers that go down as close as possible to 20Hz to give you that low end/bass sound. In my home theatre I'm runnning full range speakers I bought in 1980 and I've never bothered with a sub.
The other thinig that occurs to me is your sources. I still have my old stereo amp from 1980. Compared to modern equipment is has a very limited number of inputs and is intended for use with turntables and tape decks. At one point I used the AUX input for CD (and even DVD) players. The other inputs are not suitable (must confess I'm not sure why). Your receiver is a little older. If you want to use a CD player you might want to research this a little and make sure your AUX input can take a CD output.
As mentioned above, you might be better off tracking downa vintage pair of speakers second hand; mind you I don't think I'd ever part with mine
Good luck
blairy
#5
Chicken Man
-
- Senior Member
-
- 5,750 posts
DTV Forums Member
Posted 11 December 2011 - 11:56 AM
The thing to remember here is that amplifier power is not everything for effective sound output, efficiency is !
Typical loudspeaker systems we buy these days are around 1% efficient, that's pretty poor in terms of energy conversion.
So shopping around for speakers with a higher efficiency as 'mttel' had mentioned will give the best outcome.
C.M
Typical loudspeaker systems we buy these days are around 1% efficient, that's pretty poor in terms of energy conversion.
So shopping around for speakers with a higher efficiency as 'mttel' had mentioned will give the best outcome.
C.M
#6
geoffcb
-
- Member
-
- 694 posts
DTV Forums Member
Posted 11 December 2011 - 12:16 PM
mttel, on Dec 10 2011, 09:54 AM, said:
I have a similar old amp set up in a patio area nominally 10mx5m, open on two sides. I have a couple of book shelf size outdoor speakers and have used these for a teenagers party (used tarps to enclose the area) quite successfully. Gets a bit strained/distorted when the volume is max out but ok as long as the volume is no more than 70%.
In terms of speakers what you want is speakers that are identified as high sensitivity, something greater than 90dB would be ideal. This will give you a higher sound level for the same energy input from the amp.
Getting good bass, loud music, $550 and a vintage amp are not necessarily mutually exclusive events but you need to be realistic that this will not put out the sound levels that you get down the pub or at a club. Well it might for a little while but chances are something will give either the amp or distortion will blow the speaker.
If you are not to concerned about sound quality then something like this could be worth a look
Jaycar Party Speaker
Alternatively you will always do better on the second hand market. Option are on this forum, stereo net but most likely your local trading post or gumtree will yeild some cracker deals.
best of luck.
ps (edit) another option would be to grab a cheap second hand powered sub and some reasonable bookshelfs, then you get good music quality for general listening and can crank the sub for the party bass without killing the amp
In terms of speakers what you want is speakers that are identified as high sensitivity, something greater than 90dB would be ideal. This will give you a higher sound level for the same energy input from the amp.
Getting good bass, loud music, $550 and a vintage amp are not necessarily mutually exclusive events but you need to be realistic that this will not put out the sound levels that you get down the pub or at a club. Well it might for a little while but chances are something will give either the amp or distortion will blow the speaker.
If you are not to concerned about sound quality then something like this could be worth a look
Jaycar Party Speaker
Alternatively you will always do better on the second hand market. Option are on this forum, stereo net but most likely your local trading post or gumtree will yeild some cracker deals.
best of luck.
ps (edit) another option would be to grab a cheap second hand powered sub and some reasonable bookshelfs, then you get good music quality for general listening and can crank the sub for the party bass without killing the amp
I'd agree with all this advice. The Jaycar party speakers are reasonably efficient and although not technically hi-fi, should give a good sound in an open environment. See if you can listen to them first - the piezos might be a bit bright. Alternatively, use some bookshelves with a reasonable sub (connected to the bookshelves). The amp won't have to be driven hard and you should get some thumping party bass!
Good luck!
Of course there's the upgraditis bug to watch out for!!!
#7
jliang70
-
- Member
-
- 2,466 posts
DTV Forums Member
Posted 11 December 2011 - 07:40 PM
I would give the speaker and amp packaged below a shot
http://www.stereo.ne...akers-Valve-Amp
You only need a $200 CD player to complete a great $700 system.
http://www.stereo.ne...akers-Valve-Amp
You only need a $200 CD player to complete a great $700 system.
#8
pelennor
-
- Member
-
- 83 posts
DTV Forums Member
Posted 12 December 2011 - 11:08 AM
A few thoughts...
Firstly, you want easy to drive speakers with that kind of amplification. Easy to drive meaning efficient, as already discussed at length, and also low impedance (ie you want 8 ohms and not 4 ohms or 6 ohms)
Secondly, while a subwoofer would be a good addition, integrating a sub into an older setup is trickier. As far as I know your vintage amp isn't going to have a subwoofer preout. Which means even if you have a sub, you'll be sending a full range signal to your mains (ie including the bass that's also going to your sub), which makes your amp work harder than it should have to. It still might be worthwhile to do, but your amp will probably still not cope once you turn the volume up.
So I'd probably go for something like the Jaycar party speakers already linked, or even consider running active speakers as your mains, which will definitely allow you to get loud enough for parties (since they're doing they're own amplification, much like an active subwoofer). Something along the lines of http://bavasmusic.co...ers-p-3635.html for example. If you went for this, you could then add a sub down the track if you felt the bottom end needed some more filling in.
Firstly, you want easy to drive speakers with that kind of amplification. Easy to drive meaning efficient, as already discussed at length, and also low impedance (ie you want 8 ohms and not 4 ohms or 6 ohms)
Secondly, while a subwoofer would be a good addition, integrating a sub into an older setup is trickier. As far as I know your vintage amp isn't going to have a subwoofer preout. Which means even if you have a sub, you'll be sending a full range signal to your mains (ie including the bass that's also going to your sub), which makes your amp work harder than it should have to. It still might be worthwhile to do, but your amp will probably still not cope once you turn the volume up.
So I'd probably go for something like the Jaycar party speakers already linked, or even consider running active speakers as your mains, which will definitely allow you to get loud enough for parties (since they're doing they're own amplification, much like an active subwoofer). Something along the lines of http://bavasmusic.co...ers-p-3635.html for example. If you went for this, you could then add a sub down the track if you felt the bottom end needed some more filling in.
#9
Chicken Man
-
- Senior Member
-
- 5,750 posts
DTV Forums Member
Posted 12 December 2011 - 01:59 PM
Klawrence, on Dec 9 2011, 11:51 PM, said:
So ill start out saying i know next to nothing about audio.
Backstory:
So i finished a degree or two and decided to kill some time over the summer renovating a bungalow/outhouse in my backyard that has been used for storage for about 20 years. During the clean up i found an old toshiba amplifier of my mothers. My google-fu revealed that this is a 30+ year old receiver manufactured between 1973-82; the: Toshiba Stereo Receiver SA-420 which features 25W per channel. I like its style, particularly its vintage feel and as this will be a continuing motif through the renovated outbuilding which will be set-up somewhat like a 60/70's bar. As such ive decided to dust it off and buy it a pair of new speakers, that is if at all possible.
First Note of Confusion:
Power ratings of amplifiers is something that im finding quite confusing as the internet teaches me that this amp is 25W per channel while all i can see on the back of the amp is '240V 50Htz and 180W - i imagine that is regarding the PSU?' i dont quite understand these discrepancies or how they limit my choice in speakers but thats what i am enquiring about. Assuming that the 180W is the PSU, does this mean that any speaker connected to the amp will draw a maximum of 25W, or will it draw more giving risk that the amp will blow up?
What im After:
For the audiofiles out there im sorry i cant quite articulate what i want in any other way, sorry for the cringe inducing description: The system will only be for music (from folk to tech house and classical i listen to it all), i want to play it loud enough to dance to with clear and strong bass but also clear for the parts that are not bass (mids and highs?).
For the record i did hook up the floorstanding speakers of mum and dads yamaha 5.1 (6 Ohm, 80-125W) and it went allright, convincing me that a pair of floorstanding speakers would suffice. However, reading into these things has been disconcerting as i read a lot that book-shelf speakers may well be the way to go, lending further to my confusion.
Getting Ahead of Myself:
I was looking at buying the following, after testing mum and dads speakers:
KEF C5 $564
Cambridge Audio S30 Bookshelfs $350
where $564 was the upper end of the budget.
Getting Real:
If good bass, loud music, $550 and a vintage amp are mutually exclusive events, then im willing to spend up to $700 on a new system in which case any advice on that would also be welcomed.
The Bottom Line:
So can i get the suggested speakers for my old amp, can anyone see a problem (i.e. 25W pc) can anyone make further recommendations on where i should go from here?
Backstory:
So i finished a degree or two and decided to kill some time over the summer renovating a bungalow/outhouse in my backyard that has been used for storage for about 20 years. During the clean up i found an old toshiba amplifier of my mothers. My google-fu revealed that this is a 30+ year old receiver manufactured between 1973-82; the: Toshiba Stereo Receiver SA-420 which features 25W per channel. I like its style, particularly its vintage feel and as this will be a continuing motif through the renovated outbuilding which will be set-up somewhat like a 60/70's bar. As such ive decided to dust it off and buy it a pair of new speakers, that is if at all possible.
First Note of Confusion:
Power ratings of amplifiers is something that im finding quite confusing as the internet teaches me that this amp is 25W per channel while all i can see on the back of the amp is '240V 50Htz and 180W - i imagine that is regarding the PSU?' i dont quite understand these discrepancies or how they limit my choice in speakers but thats what i am enquiring about. Assuming that the 180W is the PSU, does this mean that any speaker connected to the amp will draw a maximum of 25W, or will it draw more giving risk that the amp will blow up?
What im After:
For the audiofiles out there im sorry i cant quite articulate what i want in any other way, sorry for the cringe inducing description: The system will only be for music (from folk to tech house and classical i listen to it all), i want to play it loud enough to dance to with clear and strong bass but also clear for the parts that are not bass (mids and highs?).
For the record i did hook up the floorstanding speakers of mum and dads yamaha 5.1 (6 Ohm, 80-125W) and it went allright, convincing me that a pair of floorstanding speakers would suffice. However, reading into these things has been disconcerting as i read a lot that book-shelf speakers may well be the way to go, lending further to my confusion.
Getting Ahead of Myself:
I was looking at buying the following, after testing mum and dads speakers:
KEF C5 $564
Cambridge Audio S30 Bookshelfs $350
where $564 was the upper end of the budget.
Getting Real:
If good bass, loud music, $550 and a vintage amp are mutually exclusive events, then im willing to spend up to $700 on a new system in which case any advice on that would also be welcomed.
The Bottom Line:
So can i get the suggested speakers for my old amp, can anyone see a problem (i.e. 25W pc) can anyone make further recommendations on where i should go from here?
To answer some of your questions....... 180 watts should be the total 'apparent power' used by the receiver.
Power supplies of that era and today that do not use a SMPS (switchmode power supply) are typically only 66% efficient at providing power to the amplifier stages and other circuitry.
That means 120 watts DC in total is available for the whole receiver's usage including driving the loudspeakers to the rated 25 watts RMS/channel. At the 25 watt RMS output level/ channel the power amplifiers would be at the point of clipping unless the amplifiers had some extra headroom (power reserve) available to them in the power supply.
If so, this would be very little indeed as there is now only 70 watts of DC power left to the receiver for its proper functioning.
Driving heavy bass currents through your speakers will quickly undermine the power reserve in the receiver's power supply and thus the overall available output to the speakers before serious distortion sets in.
So limit what bass enhancement you use if you want a generally louder sound level overall and keep the speakers close to the walls to enhance the bass response (boundary effect).
To put it bluntly, 25 watts RMS/channel is borderline when it comes to partying loud and that is with good, efficient speakers. What might seem loud enough in a quiet situation soon diminishes to being inadequate when a crowd of people are dancing in front of them.
Elevating the speakers to head height or above will pay big dividends in terms of the subjective sound levels and its projection into the listening area. Something well worth considering.
As for speakers, high efficiency speakers should always be a priority regardless of the amplifier's capability.
C.M
Edited by Chicken Man, 12 December 2011 - 10:26 PM.
#10
StevenB
-
- Member
-
- 246 posts
DTV Forums Member
Posted 12 December 2011 - 02:26 PM
How would these go with your nice new (resurrected) amp ?? A nice pair of '80s Advent Legacy IIs - going cheap too - PM me if you are interested. I also have stands for them if needed.
http://www.stereo.ne...mp;d=1255052113
http://www.stereo.ne...mp;d=1255052184
http://www.stereo.ne...mp;d=1255052113
http://www.stereo.ne...mp;d=1255052184
Edited by StevenB, 13 December 2011 - 10:13 AM.
