35 replies to this topic

[GoForMoe]

I was driving home tonight and heard an interesting ad on Nova - Digital Radio apparently now has a million listeners you should join in listening to DAB - and that you should go buy a radio from Dick Smith, including an offer for buy one and get one half price (surely if it were as successful as it is, it wouldn't need such a gimmick).

If you could almost believe 500k, based on the stats put out, surely the staunchest of defenders can't justify a million listeners?

[digitalj]

Can't be any worse than a previous claim: "DAB+ has CD Quality" or whatever it was.

[lizclinton]

Just heard the same ad which also included the wild claim that with digital radio you can have both quantity and quality. How can they get away with spreading such lies? Surely they should be saying that while the current AM stations will sound better on a digital radio expect the FM ones to sound worse.

[alanh]

All,
I like the way that these posters do not believe the CRA, when they have no evidence to the contrary.
As DSE Promotion it is a Christmas promotion from DSE.

As for promotion, if there is a million listeners, its still a long way to go to 13 million listeners so any promotion is welcome. Then the wasteful simulcasting of analog and digital radio can stop in Capital cities.

AlanH

[lizclinton]

Alan, When you have a history of making announcements that you then fail to deliver on like CRA does you would have to expect a fair level of scepticism towards you from the general public.

[digitalj]

alanh, on Dec 9 2011, 10:44 AM, said:

Then the wasteful simulcasting of analog and digital radio can stop in Capital cities.

AlanH

I hope this never happens unless the the audio is no less than 192Kbps per stereo station. Otherwise it'll be the end of me listening to radio at all.

[DrP]

If its anything like the UK experience people will switch off digital and go back to analogue for reasons of reception and audio quality.  An informed reader would have already noted that Australia's system has been set up in such a way to guarantee that there are reception problems (can't have the dreaded out of area reception!) and there are audio quality problems as well.

[GlennP]

alanh, on Dec 9 2011, 10:44 AM, said:

All,
I like the way that these posters do not believe the CRA, when they have no evidence to the contrary.
As DSE Promotion it is a Christmas promotion from DSE.

As for promotion, if there is a million listeners, its still a long way to go to 13 million listeners so any promotion is welcome. Then the wasteful simulcasting of analog and digital radio can stop in Capital cities.

AlanH

Thing with that DSE promotion, if you buy 1 DAB+ radio, they are willing to give you a second one at half price. They obviously have large stocks but can't get rid of them. If digital DAB+ radio was so fantastic & the numbers of receivers sold & listeners CRA claim was correct, then word of mouth alone would be selling them, & no price reductions (or giveaways) would be needed, DAB+ radios would be walking off the shelves as fast or faster than they can be replaced.

I don't have written proof, as the digital figures are all secretive by CRA's order & cannot be released to the public under any circumstances, but have previously said in here, I have it from the promotions manager & general manager of a network station broadcasting DAB+ in a capital city, that there is no interest in digital radio by consumers & very little from the stations themselves, (only due to CRA's push), that no one is listening to digital radio, & that they spend very little time & money programming the digital stations because of the aforementioned reasons. So yes I do have evidence to the contrary & don't believe CRA. I've had the evidence from the rock/coal face or the horses mouth if you prefer.

[alanh]

GlennP,
Since you live in an area which is not covered by DAB+ signals it is easy to get a skewed impression.
The CRA is using GFKRT to independently give them statistics.

You must renew your quotes from the Promotion and marketing manager.

I would also suggest that you also ask the ABC. They regularly give the digital audience the alterative to sport for Local Radio Listeners for the Cricket and football seasons, as well as having a pair of Grandstand channels one for AFL and the other for NRL.

As for Dick Smith's offer its only a discount of 25 % if you buy a pair of the same Bush radio. With the prices of DAB+ radios dropping its just a maketing decision. No other large sellers of DAB+ radios such as The Good Guys, Harvey Norman and Retravision are not doing this.

It will be interesting to see what happens to prices in 2012. Germany was broadcasting using DAB which was a failure. (Note for the UK!). They have just switched on a national network of DAB+ transmitters for 80 million people in the richest country in Europe. The Dutch are doing the same, but providing 40 programs available in any location.

AlanH

[GlennP]

alanh, on Dec 9 2011, 03:17 PM, said:

GlennP,
Since you live in an area which is not covered by DAB+ signals it is easy to get a skewed impression.
The CRA is using GFKRT to independently give them statistics.

You must renew your quotes from the Promotion and marketing manager.

I would also suggest that you also ask the ABC. They regularly give the digital audience the alterative to sport for Local Radio Listeners for the Cricket and football seasons, as well as having a pair of Grandstand channels one for AFL and the other for NRL.

As for Dick Smith's offer its only a discount of 25 % if you buy a pair of the same Bush radio. With the prices of DAB+ radios dropping its just a maketing decision. No other large sellers of DAB+ radios such as The Good Guys, Harvey Norman and Retravision are not doing this.

It will be interesting to see what happens to prices in 2012. Germany was broadcasting using DAB which was a failure. (Note for the UK!). They have just switched on a national network of DAB+ transmitters for 80 million people in the richest country in Europe. The Dutch are doing the same, but providing 40 programs available in any location.

AlanH

Actually Alan, the supposed sales figures come from GFKRT, but they are secret as well, so we don't actually know how they are calculated & what actually signifies a sale? Is it a non - returned retail sale, a retail sale only in DAB+ reception areas or right across the country, (because we know DAB+ digital radios are being sold in areas that can't actually receive a DAB+ signal), or is it a wholesale sale, (to which units are still sitting on shelves in shops or warehouses) or is it a manufacture sale to wholesalers?

The digital listener figures come from Nielsen ratings as do the analogue listener figures. The promotions & general managers (plural 2 different people, 1 the head honcho, No. 1 man, boss of the entire station), get these figures so they know what they are. Also according to CRA's own media releases, there was 940,000 digital listeners in survey #5 2011, & 940,00 digital listeners still in the latest survey, #7 2011 (which was released on 31st october 2011), & now at the start of December, they advertise 1 million listeners, where from & how did they pick up 60,000 new listeners in the last 4 weeks? It's all in CRA official black & white printing news, go find it.

Also you'd better go back & read the DSE link you posted, there's a big colour ad on the page that says buy ANY digital radio & get 50% off a second one, it's also in the CRA news section on the digital radio plus web site, which says about the DSE promotion & buy ANY digital radio & get 50% off a second one.

Think it's time to do some study & comprehend what you're reading before your next comment Alan!

Edited by GlennP, 09 December 2011 - 03:28 PM.

[alanh]

GlennP,
Have you found any AM only radios in the shops. You promised to check it out.

If a retailer keeps having stock returned they do not order any more so this stock must have been on the shelves for nearly 2 years. The retailer has already paid for this stock you would have expected them to be specialled off a long time ago.

When did you ask your contacts about digital radio last?

I used buying a pair of radios from Dick Smith to be the same model to make the calculation easy. Otherwise I would have to quote the saving for every model and in most cases the discount on the total price will be less when the undiscounted radio is more expensive. You can easily calculate the % discount for the total sale just as easily as I can.

Since 60 % of the population is covered by DAB+ signals the effect of selling DAB+ radios out of the coverage area is minimal.

You must also remember that Australians have the reputation of being rapidly buying new technology.

AlanH

[GoForMoe]

alanh, on Dec 9 2011, 08:22 PM, said:

Have you found any AM only radios in the shops. You promised to check it out.

Dick Smith still sell an AM Crystal set kit. I remember building one as a kid.

[GlennP]

alanh, on Dec 9 2011, 08:22 PM, said:

GlennP,
Have you found any AM only radios in the shops. You promised to check it out.

If a retailer keeps having stock returned they do not order any more so this stock must have been on the shelves for nearly 2 years. The retailer has already paid for this stock you would have expected them to be specialled off a long time ago.

When did you ask your contacts about digital radio last?

I used buying a pair of radios from Dick Smith to be the same model to make the calculation easy. Otherwise I would have to quote the saving for every model and in most cases the discount on the total price will be less when the undiscounted radio is more expensive. You can easily calculate the % discount for the total sale just as easily as I can.

Since 60 % of the population is covered by DAB+ signals the effect of selling DAB+ radios out of the coverage area is minimal.

You must also remember that Australians have the reputation of being rapidly buying new technology.

AlanH

DSE does still have AM crystal sets, I haven't really been looking too hard otherwise, it's not really a priority I did say that originally.

When are sales counted in the number of units sold? That we don't know, if it's to the end customer is a returned stock (even if it's only 1 or 2), taken off the sold count until it's resold or counted twice?
Not necessarily they would have stock sitting on shelves for 2 years, they may have initially ordered a large stock & have gradually reduced that stock & are now only buying 5 - 10 units per month - 6 months instead of ordering in hundreds of units at a time.

Last time I asked my contacts about digital radio was about 6 months ago, somewhere between surveys 3 & 4 2011. Remember it was 940,000 listeners in survey 5 & still in survey 7. Despite what CRA make out, listener figures aren't skyrocketing between surveys, (except the 60,000 new listeners in the last 4 - 5 weeks).

Why complicate the matter & just make up words & figures, it's advertised as 50% off a second DAB+ Bush digital radio with the purchase of ANY digital radio. Most people don't analyse & calculate total overall costs when making purchases like that. It's all marketing smoke & mirrors to make people buy more & think they're getting a good deal, lucky you don't work in sales or advertising, you'd be very hungry & destitute.

If 60% of the population is covered by DAB+ signals, then 40% isn't. So if unit sales outside the DAB+ reception areas are counted, then the total sales figures are around 40% incorrect.

Yes in some cases Australians do pick up technology fast, but not all cases & not all demographics. Remember how many people still used analogue AMPS mobile phones up till the day the AMPS network was switched off? Also if you actually got out there & did some TV antenna installs, you'd be surprised at how many people still use Analogue only TV sets (with no STB). I've just finished about 7 months of traveling the East Coast from Melbourne to the Qld. Sunshine Coast & you'd probably also be surprised at the amount of hotels/motels that still only have analogue TV's & only get the 5 analogue channels plus some pay channels fed into the MATV system. A lot of the smaller motor inns have DTV's, most only installed in the last 12 months, but some of the bigger hotels like the Accor chain (Novotel & the likes), still only have analogue TV's & analogue FTA channels.

[GoForMoe]

I'm sure a huge amount of that 'digital' number is from people with PLL FM/AM tuners. The radio ratings are self report diaries in a world where people hook blu-ray players up with composite.

[alanh]

GlennP,
The CRA are only claiming 1 million listeners out of nearly 23 million potential listeners according to you. 1 million in 13 million is still under 10 % of the audience. This is insufficient for the marketing people to get excited about the extra programs. It is up to the stations to provide attractive programming to attract listeners and advertised the programs not the technology. Look what happened when TEN launched OneHD. They also made it known that you had to buy an HD STB or TV.

" if it's to the end customer is a returned stock (even if it's only 1 or 2), taken off the sold count until it's resold or counted twice" This is insignificant. This assumes that GFK go to individual stores. This is labour intensive. It would be a lot easier to examine the buying records of a whole chain such as the chain stores and major electronics retailers. Then your assumptions is invalid.

As for the extra 60 k listners may have been due to the Fathers' Day promotions in the areas covered by DAB+ which were sureveyed later.

All retailers use discounts to entice buyers and DSE is no different. I was just trying to show that it's not a fantastic deal and it is not because they are not selling. The other retailers are not doing this.

The 40 % of the population are waiting for DRM or perhaps DAB+. You cannot assume that the people in Broome or Cairns are buying DAB+/FM radios and taking them back. There is no promotion on their local stations to sell receivers. Have you heard promotion of digital radios on Newcastle or Gosford radio?

Lastly on radio, the Commonwealth Goverment has given a moritorium of 6 years prior to any new broadcaster licences to be issued. This must be the time expected to achieve a reasonable audience size.

As for the techonolgy take up there are always those who wait until the last minute. Large MATV installations are a good example because to the costs of not only the MATV system upgrades, but the replacement of all the TVs. A lot of large hotels are overseas owned, so they are not Australians being fast to takeon rapid techological change. Government assets are not disimilar ie hospitals, jails etc.

This is a significant investment when the tourist industry is in a slump. The area you are travelling in particularly Sydney and Melbourne still have 2 years to go where Southern NSW only have a little over 6 months.

Goeformoe,
If you look at the range of digital radios available, you will find that a Digital radio which contains AM is unusual. How do you know what the user listens to? As you point out there are people who are far less critical than some here and are quite happy to listen to DAB+ copies of FM stations particularly if the radio station has fed the DAB+ modulator correctly.

AlanH

[GlennP]

alanh, on Dec 10 2011, 01:13 PM, said:

GlennP,
The CRA are only claiming 1 million listeners out of nearly 23 million potential listeners according to you. 1 million in 13 million is still under 10 % of the audience. This is insufficient for the marketing people to get excited about the extra programs. It is up to the stations to provide attractive programming to attract listeners and advertised the programs not the technology. Look what happened when TEN launched OneHD. They also made it known that you had to buy an HD STB or TV.

TV is slightly different to radio & people didn't flood out & buy HD receivers to get OneHD did they? It's not up to the stations to provide attractive programming (on extra channels) to attract listeners, especially when the technology is supposedly so superior & fantastic, it should be selling itself. Station finances are not overall great, they are not going to waste time & money on programming for small amounts of listeners & return. More channels also split the size of the listeners on the main channels & thus they have to reduce the advertising rates for the reduction in audience numbers, currently the amounts listening to alternate digital channels is insignificant to worry the advertising rates & audience size, & there is little or no advertising on the extra channels. Seeing as you brought it up, the TV channels (TEN in particular) fought long & hard against multi channels for this exact reason. I also happen to be a shareholder of the TEN Network, so I see the financial figures, the TV networks aren't exactly printing money either, & as you would notice, the bulk of programming on the extra channels is of 20+ year old shows or stuff that would only rate small audience numbers on the main channels, time & money can't be afforded on programming the extra channels.

Quote

" if it's to the end customer is a returned stock (even if it's only 1 or 2), taken off the sold count until it's resold or counted twice" This is insignificant. This assumes that GFK go to individual stores. This is labour intensive. It would be a lot easier to examine the buying records of a whole chain such as the chain stores and major electronics retailers. Then your assumptions is invalid.

So if you're saying that sales figures are as a bulk calculation & returns (for whatever reason) are excluded, this would give a generalised figure, but could be quite incorrect. As it stands, the sales figures of radios sold is about half of the listeners, 500,000 units. This means that on average 2 people listen to every DAB+ radio (highly unlikely), quite a few members in here have more than 1 DAB+ radio, & I doubt listen to both at the same time with 3 or more other people. There is also the good possibility that quite a few DAB+ radios bought in the early times are now lost, broken, or no longer listened to, some may have been replaced, doubling up on sales but no increasing listeners, making the listener to radio ratio even more unbelievable.

Quote

As for the extra 60 k listeners may have been due to the Fathers' Day promotions in the areas covered by DAB+ which were sureveyed later.

Highly unlikely, Fathers day was at the start of September, Survey #7 was released at the end of October, survey #8 is released early next week, so no one other than Nielsen would know the latest results, survey #6 was released mid September, just after Fathers Day. Fathers Day figures that didn't make it into survey #6 would definitely have been counted in survey #7.

Quote

The 40 % of the population are waiting for DRM or perhaps DAB+. You cannot assume that the people in Broome or Cairns are buying DAB+/FM radios and taking them back. There is no promotion on their local stations to sell receivers. Have you heard promotion of digital radios on Newcastle or Gosford radio?

There are no on air promotions for DAB+ sales outside the capitals, but DAB+ radios are sold outside the capitals, & as I've mentioned many times before, there are greater numbers of DAB+/FM radios on the shelves than there are AM/FM radios (clock radios not included), so even outside DAB+ areas the vast majority of radios sold would be DAB+ capable but not listenable.

Quote

Lastly on radio, the Commonwealth Goverment has given a moritorium of 6 years prior to any new broadcaster licences to be issued. This must be the time expected to achieve a reasonable audience size.

No that was a condition mandated by CRA, similar to the 10 year of no new TV licences mandated by the Free TV consortium. Just another way for the commercial stations to stifle competition, lose market share & revenue.

Quote

AlanH

[laurie]

And we haven't even included the problems with car manufactures putting DAB+ into their model range  

cheers laurie

[GlennP]

Thought I'd revive this old thread rather than starting a new one.
Anyway, May 1st brought CRA again gloating how DAB+ digital radio sales & listeners has grown again, without releasing any actual figures.

A couple of questions have been brought up on Radio Info, about time spent listening (TSL) to DAB+, & listening figures on each DAB+ station.
As no public figures for digital radio are released, we have to rely on CRA's honesty (or lack there of), regarding the actual success of DAB+ digital radio.

For some time now, me & quite a few others, are skeptical of the figures, & believe the success of digital radio is somewhat dubious, enhanced at the least.

Mark Hales, got in touch with Joan Warner at CRA & asked the question of her/them, when will we publicly get the digital radio figures, & this is the response quoted from CRA:

Quote

The radio industry will look at releasing individual digital radio station audience figures when there is enough data to establish trends.

In other words, there are very few listeners, & very little data, to back up what we (CRA) say. We're just making it up, you'll have to believe us, that it's very successful, with lots of listeners.

I knew it was only a matter of time before the truth came out.
If it was as successful as they tell us, (with lots of listeners, listening for long periods of time), there'd be nothing to hide, & they'd in-fact be making sure we all saw the figures & could see how good it's doing.

[alanh]

http://www.digitalra...ay_news_id=1137 for numbers

It is popular in Perth particularly with ABC listeners, because ABC Perth's drive time program continues until 6 pm were as 720 AM program switches to the AFL from the east at around 5:30. The drive program often uses comedian Peter Rosethorne along with the full time Russel Woolfe.

Alanh

[GlennP]

That link you gave Alan, is CRA's own site, the figures are all smoke & mirrors. I gave you the quote from the horses mouth (so to speak). There's not enough data to publish any figures. Yet on the surface it looks like they do, but they actually don't, (sales figures exempt, but how accurate are they?).

The sales figures may actually be correct, but we don't know where they collect them from, is it only metro sales or all sales including regional areas that can't & may never receive DAB+ broadcasts, nowhere do they say. Southern Cross Austereo are also currently running the "buy your mum a DAB+ digital radio for mothers day" promotion on their regional web sites, knowing full well people that do, won't & may never receive DAB+ broadcasts, but I'm sure sales figures from this will go into their next "news release" on how well sales are.

12.3% of people listen to DAB+ each week. 12.3% of what, total people, people who actually own a DAB+ receiver? If 12.3% of owners listen to DAB+ each week, that means 87.7% don't listen, (not very good IMO). If it's 12.3% of all radio listeners, then doesn't that mean the AM/FM ratings figures are incorrect, because digital radio listening is counted separately. Listening to a station on DAB+ doesn't count to the AM/FM ratings, & they don't publicly release the DAB+ listening figures.

TSL to DAB+ is double that of TSL to radio on the internet. Double of what? 1% internet, 2% DAB+, 15% internet, 30% DAB+? Who knows?

[newtaste]

"Listening to a station on DAB+ doesn't count to the AM/FM ratings".

Is that right? Surely it wouldn't matter how you heard the radio station.

[GlennP]

newtaste, on 04 May 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

"Listening to a station on DAB+ doesn't count to the AM/FM ratings".

Is that right? Surely it wouldn't matter how you heard the radio station.

Yes,
The public ratings figures are for AM/FM listening, DAB+ is measured separately, & is released to the stations that want it, but not publicly. Listening to a station online or digitally through whatever medium, is also not included in the public ratings figures, but stations do know the "digital listening figures" as a separate measure.

This is from Nielsen's Press & Internet Policy:

Quote

Radio Ratings information or data pertaining to OTHER AM, OTHER FM and OTHER DIGITAL is not to be published.

Edited by GlennP, 04 May 2013 - 10:50 AM.

[GoForMoe]

I would imagine most DAB+ listening is to the existing stations simply because the digital only ones change format every month so no one can get used to them. And if those numbers were high, then the stations would be rushing to include them with their analogue listening figures to boost their numbers.

If the figures were good, we'd have them.

[alanh]

Go for moe,

What's it matter if the listener is listening to the main programs of the networks on DAB+ or whether they are listening to one of the new program streams. ABC local radio sounds much better on DAB+ than AM.The listener is still using DAB+.

"If the figures were good, we'd have them." Nielsen will charge for each program stream surveyed, because of the time taken to find out when the listener is listening. Most surveying for the CRA is done by the European company GFK and not Nielsen
If you look at the ratings you will see that the only only stations surveyed are those who pay for it. Ie commercial radio stations and the ABC. There is no SBS radio figures nor any community radio.
Not only that the breakdown of the surveys are only provided to customers and not published on their website. This is how they get paid.

AlanH

[GoForMoe]

alanh, on 04 May 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

What's it matter if the listener is listening to the main programs of the networks on DAB+ or whether they are listening to one of the new program streams. ABC local radio sounds much better on DAB+ than AM.The listener is still using DAB+.

"And if those numbers were high, then the stations would be rushing to include them with their analogue listening figures to boost their numbers."

For the ABC it probably doesn't matter, but for commercial broadcasters, if a significant portion of their listenership was via digital platforms, then they would be wanting to include this in their listening figures that are published, so that advertisers can see those extra listeners on digital.

For AM stations, where the sound quality argument is in digital's favour, then it's even more pronounced - if they were succeeding at gaining listeners on DAB+ because of superior sound quality - then they would have a higher market share than on figures that only indicate analogue listening. That's something a broadcaster would want to publicise.

Quote

"If the figures were good, we'd have them." Nielsen will charge for each program stream surveyed, because of the time taken to find out when the listener is listening. Most surveying for the CRA is done by the European company GFK and not Nielsen

If you look at the ratings you will see that the only only stations surveyed are those who pay for it. Ie commercial radio stations and the ABC. There is no SBS radio figures nor any community radio.

Ratings are collected for all stations regardless of whether they are paid for. Some are not reported publicly, but all are measured.

Quote

Not only that the breakdown of the surveys are only provided to customers and not published on their website. This is how they get paid.

Duh.

It is very logical to suggest that if a station had digital radio listening figures that were worth boasting about, they would certainly gladly pay additional money to be able to publish that data - as their higher resulting listeners claim would help make more ad sales. The near total lack of advertising on digital radio isn't a sign of generosity on the part of broadcasters.