44 replies to this topic

[Slattery]

3D sporting content on Australian TV is virtually non existent. ESPN 3D shows reruns of college basketball/football and Little League Baseball, while SKY 3D in the UK shows darts, EPL and other content that we can't get.


As for FTA in Australia showing 3D in the future, lol they don't even show anything in HD so we might see something by 2030.

[alanh]

Slattery,
For free to air TV there will be no spare channels to transmit 3-D past 2014 because the spare channels are being sold to the Wifi industry.

The only way that 3-D can be permanently available is for the Terrestrial TV to change tranmission standards to DVB-T2/MPEG-4. This standard drasticallly increase the efficiency of transmission allowing a Full HD 50 frame/s 3-D non frame compatible signal to be transmitted with a pair of 1280 x 720p 25 frame/s independent programs.

DVB-T2/MPEG-4 started broadcasting nearly 2 years ago, in the UK and now has been adopted by 35 countries some of which have started transmission. The adoption is spreading.

For receivers here to become DVB-T2/MPEG-4 capable the inexpensive modification needs to be mandated now, for transmissions to start in around 7 years. By then there should be more programs available and the number of STBs required will be much smaller. Nearly all current receivers cannot receive this signal and there is no spare channels to allow simulcasting.

AlanH

[MLXXX]

As has been mentioned in another thread, MPEG-4 AVC side by side 3D transmissions using the existing DVB-T modulation could be used for occasional important 3D broadcasts utilising the bandwidth of an MPEG-2 HD transmission, and simulcast by the same Australian broadcaster in 2D using MPEG-2.

For example, for the Nine Network, the arrangement could be:
GEM: test pattern advising 3D broadcast in progress on temporary 3D stream
9ThreeD: - 1920x1080 side by side 3D transmission using MPEG-4 (3D TV sets and modern set top boxes and PVRS can decode MPEG-4 AVC)
Nine: - 2D standard definition simulcast using MPEG-2
Go!: Hogans Heroes, Bewitched, Get Smart, etc using MPEG-2

It should be noted that 1920x1080 side by side provides 960 horizontal pixels per eye, which exceeds the 720 horizontal pixels of standard definition.  It should also be noted that a great deal of 2D sport is broadcast in Australia in standard definition.

It will be interesting to see whether any of the London Olympics in July/Aug 2012 finds its way to Australian FTA in 3D. Certain events will be captured in 3D:-  
http://www.guardian....012-olympics-3d

Edited by MLXXX, 18 November 2011 - 08:25 AM.

[pheggie]

LG 3dtv's have a 3d App for internet called 3d Zone with interesting free HD content and also a Youtube app just search yt3d and most will automatically switch to 720p 3d mode.

[alanh]

MLXXX,
Channel 9 will not put a warning that 3-D is in transmission because of the large range of HD 2D receivers and STBs which will produce an unwatchable picture.

Commercially you need one signal which can be seen by all. There is no spare channels after the sale of channels 51 - 69.

AlanH

[MLXXX]

alanh, on Nov 18 2011, 01:15 AM, said:

Channel 9 will not put a warning that 3-D is in transmission because of the large range of HD 2D receivers and STBs which will produce an unwatchable picture.

Commercially you need one signal which can be seen by all.

By establishing a 3D only MPEG-4 stream for occasional use, that stream would be available to be identified by TVs that can scan for MPEG-4 signals, just like TVs scanning for the 3D test transmissions last year.

That new stream would display a useless side by side picture on a 2D MPEG-4 capable device, just like the 3D test transmissions last year.

An SD stream would broadcast a 2D version. I note this year that Nine broadcast the State of Origin Rugby League in SD.

As there is only occasional 3D material available at this point in time, this compromise would be workable. It would of course be limited to broadcasting 3D at only slighly better than SD horizontal resolution, just like the 3D test transmissions last year.

Edited by MLXXX, 18 November 2011 - 08:53 AM.

[Owen]

Why transmit 3D when only a tiny percentage of viewers have 3D capable TV's and an even smaller percentage who actually want to watch 3D.

The obvious benefits of HD 2D can be enjoyed by just about everyone. Even old SD TV's look better with a HD broadcast.

[andys]

Lets be realistic here. FTA 3D transmissions are simply not going to happen anytime soon. No station is going to turn off an HD service for the sake of a 3D broadcast that very few will see. You will be far more likely to see some 3D content whenever MPEG4 becomes the standard, and that is a very long way off. It's taken 10 years for them to finally start turning off analogue services. Unfortunately we're stuck with MPEG2 for probably another 5 to 10 years. You can thank an extremely techno "unsavy" Liberal government for that!

For now 3D is for Cinemas & home viewing from Blu-ray 3D, downloads & home movies from 3D camcorders. FTA stations, along with poor legislation, have made a disgrace of digital tv in this country. You simply could not expect them to deliver a great technology such as 3D, when they can't even do justice to HD broadcasts, let alone the crap they deliver in SD.

Andys.

[MLXXX]

andys, on Nov 18 2011, 05:43 PM, said:

No station is going to turn off an HD service for the sake of a 3D broadcast that very few will see.

I can only see it happening for very special events such as the opening and closing ceremonies of next year's Olympics, and even then perhaps in a separate time slot  subsequent to a live (high definition?) 2D telecast.

Another approach [also mentioned in another thread on this topic] would be a separate terrestrial RF channel per region, to be used occasionally for 3D, with access shared between interested brodcasters.  However there is no indication (to my knowledge) of the ACMA reserving RF channels for such a purpose in spectrum plannning, despite allowing the "scientific trial" last year.

Edited by MLXXX, 19 November 2011 - 01:09 AM.

[alanh]

MLXXX,
Each site has 6 channels allocated so for Brisbane, after the restack try
BTQ6
SBS7
QTQ8
9, 9A DAB+
CTQ10 (Bris31)
TVQ11
ABQ12

Where is the spare channel?

The UHF channels are allocated in groups of 6 in your case to Gold Coast, Darling Downs, Northern Rivers NSW, Sunshine Coast, Wide Bay. All channels are used.

The commercial stations stopped transmitting 3D because of a lack of audience and additional cost.

The ABC, SBS and community TV do not have the money or equipment to broadcast 3-D. The state capital cities have duplicate band 3 digital transmitters on different towers to cover any eventuality so they don't need to buy additional transmitter on each site which gets used occasionally.

All countries are doing are selling the vacant channels left over from analog TV to the mobile phone/wifi industry. So the industry is yet to produce a permanent standard for the transmission of 3-D TV. The only standards are for production. The EU and North America want a terrestrial system which is compatible with existing receivers. Remember in North America they only have 6 MHz wide channels and already transmit a main channel of HD and a supplementary SD channel and some are transmitting an included handheld MPEG-4 signal. There is no way they can simulcast 3-D and 2-D due to competition and a lack of channels.

All,
All that the government has to do is to include DVB-T2 into the Australian Standards 4599.1 for receivers and AS4933 for transmitters and make it mandatory. The receiver standard is to be effective in 6 months for all receivers. A switchover date in either 7 or 10 years be included in an amendment to the Broadcasting Act.

The replacement of the demodulator chip with one which is DVB-T2/DVB-T which is occuring in the UK and other countries is inexpensive. Then when the system is switched over each broadcaster can transmit Full HD 3-D with 50 frame/s for smooth motion in big sporting events along with a pair of HD programs. If the broadcasters do not wish to transmit 3-D at that time they can transmit a 2D full HD program and another HD program.

AlanH

Edited by alanh, 19 November 2011 - 01:38 AM.

[MLXXX]

No one doubts the efficiency of DVB-T2 over DVB-T, but it may be some years before people who bought their 3D TVs last year update to DVB-T2 capable technology (assuming they decide to continue with FTA reception rather than choosing cable).  

Quote

The replacement of the demodulator chip with one which is DVB-T2/DVB-T which is occuring in the UK and other countries is inexpensive.

Can you provide more details about that replacement process, alanh? What makes and models of TVs can have their demodulator chips replaced and for what sort of cost?

alanh, on Nov 19 2011, 01:24 AM, said:

MLXXX,
Each site has 6 channels allocated so for Brisbane, after the restack try
BTQ6
SBS7
QTQ8
9, 9A DAB+
CTQ10 (Bris31)
TVQ11
ABQ12

Where is the spare channel?

For the present, Channel 38 (599.5MHz) used by the community broadcaster formerly known as Briz31 (now known as 31 digital) is underutilised, consisting of a single standard definition stream. See licence information at http://web.acma.gov....ENCE_NO=1922138 [QPSK modulation is allowing the station to get away with less ERP.]

Also, since May 2011, for cost reasons, Briz31 Ltd has discontinued use of its analogue channel allocation, Channel 31. The licence still appears on the register: http://web.acma.gov....ENCE_NO=1170967  

So at present in Brisbane there is an used licensed TV channel, 31, and a partly used licensed TV channel, 38.

After the restack, 31 digital (which may need another name change) will continue to be underutilsed unless another community broadcaster shares the allocated channel. It could also be that other frequencies do not get fully under way after the restack for some time, facilitating temporary allocations of UHF frequencioes, if there is pressure for 3D FTA. Although there will be some people with brand new VHF only antennas...

Edited by MLXXX, 19 November 2011 - 05:01 AM.

[DrP]

I see the Mandatory word has once again been summoned from its slumber.  I suppose another reminder about the fact that 'past and present Australian federal governments have not made very much at all mandatory^* when it comes to an Australian digital television receiver rather relying on the marketplace to sort it out' is required, although it's hard to imagine that anyone's memory could be so short as to require such a refresher.



^{*the sole mandatory item, and only in new receivers, is a parental lock function}

[Owen]

Unless the networks can see additional revenue in 3D why would they bother?
I cant see how advertisers will be interested in paying more for a smaller audience.

[TheFrog]

I don't know anyone who gives a damn about 3D....

[MLXXX]

TheFrog, on Nov 19 2011, 12:42 PM, said:

I don't know anyone who gives a damn about 3D....

There are significant ongoing audience numbers for 3D at the cinema. And sales of 3D Blu-ray titles are coming along.

As for TV in Australia, last year's 3D FIFA soccer, and Sate Of Origin, did not seem to whip up too much enthusiasm at all, despite the hopes of Harvey Norman and other retailers. [Probably related to uninspiring 3D camerawork for the State of Origin; and possibly related to limited alternation rate of active 3D glasses.]

I haven't seen encouraging reports of Foxtel 3D.  For example there was no 3D coverage of this year's Wimbledon finals.

[alanh]

MLXXX,
All HD receivers in the UK have to be DVB-T2/DVB-T otherwise they will not receive HD signals. They also have to have an MPEG-4/MPEG-2 decompressor.
This also applies in Finland, Italy, Sweden. all TVs in Kenya, Nigeria, Sri Lanka, Uganda and Zambia.

It has been adopted for Angola, Botswana, Czech Republic, Congo, Denmark, Ghana, India, Lesoto, Madagascar, Malawi, Mauritius, Mongolia, Mosambique, Namibia, Serbia, Seychelles, Singapore, Slovakia, South Africa, Swaziland, Tanzania , Ukraine, Zimbabwe.

If you want to buy the DVB-T2/DVB-T chip from Sony one off it is Au$60. However if you buy by the million probably 60 cents. Regardless its a lot cheaper than buying STBs at a later date. That would require a case, power supply, tuner, deocmpressor, microprocessor, RAM.

I have not investigated, however the 3-D TVs in Australia are modified UK versions. The only real changes required are in the firmware to change the channel frequencies and channel bandwidth. So changing the firmware chip which controls the microprocessor is the only internal change required. Of course the power plug has to be changed.

Considering that all TV channels are used in Brisbane and that the surrounding areas use all the UHF channels there is no spares. Remember they are selling all the spare UHF channels ie 52 - 69 to Wifi industry.  As you know channels 0 - 5A are not being used for Digital TV.

AlanH

[MLXXX]

alanh, on Nov 19 2011, 01:24 AM, said:

The replacement of the demodulator chip with one which is DVB-T2/DVB-T which is occuring in the UK and other countries is inexpensive.

alanh, on Nov 20 2011, 03:49 AM, said:

I have not investigated, however the 3-D TVs in Australia are modified UK versions. The only real changes required are in the firmware to change the channel frequencies and channel bandwidth. So changing the firmware chip which controls the microprocessor is the only internal change required. Of course the power plug has to be changed.

Yes I  thought you had not investigated modifying a DVB-T Australian set to DVB-T2, whether or not it be a set related to recent UK models. Nor have I. So I cannot say how feasible or how cheap modification of existing TV sets (and set top boxes and PVRs) for DVB-T2 might be.

I note for readers who may not already know, MPEG-4 AVC is a relatively new video codec that can be applied on a selective stream by stream basis in the broadcaster's multiplex, leaving other video streams of the broadcaster available for use of the older MPEG-2 codec. However the DVB-T2 protocol is a different modulation scheme for the transmission itself. It affects accessing the entire multiplex, making it impossible to capture the transmission with a DVB-T tuner. So a move to DVB-T2 would be a major change.

Quote

Considering that all TV channels are used in Brisbane and that the surrounding areas use all the UHF channels there is no spares. Remember they are selling all the spare UHF channels ie 52 - 69 to Wifi industry. As you know channels 0 - 5A are not being used for Digital TV.

I agree there are no permanent planned spares. However as I have pointed out, the single community broadcaster in Brisbane is using a single SD stream; and the takeup of actual use of reallocated bandwidth may not be immediate.

Looking less than a year ahead, to July/Aug 2012, there may be some bandwidth that could be used in Brisbane for the London Olympics, notably the analogue channel currently allocated to the community broadcaster but unused by it.

Over the next few years, a broadcaster could choose to use its own usual bandwidth for special 3D events, as I outlined at post #3 above, albeit not an ideal arrangement.

Edited by MLXXX, 20 November 2011 - 11:52 AM.

[alanh]

MLXXX,
Forget about the London Olympics on FTA because the retailers and broadcasters do not want to continue with scientific trials. The commercial situation does not need retesting and unless they are prepared to radiate DVB-T2 non-frame compatible on the transmitters used last time then there is no point.

As far as Pay TV goes its up to them.

AlanH

[TheFrog]

3D is the biggest joke I've ever heard of, on top of the fact that we have to pay for this trivial nonsense instead of proper full array LED's that have excellent picture performance by virtue of their superior tech.

[andys]

TheFrog, on Nov 23 2011, 01:56 PM, said:

3D is the biggest joke I've ever heard of, on top of the fact that we have to pay for this trivial nonsense instead of proper full array LED's that have excellent picture performance by virtue of their superior tech.

??? What has 3D got to do with the cost of full array LED TV's? By virtue of the technology, full array LED TV's (with local dimming) are expensive regardless of 3D. The addition of 3D to any TV adds very little to the cost.

Andys.

[TheFrog]

we have to pay a premium for 3D, when we should be paying that for better built 2d TV's.

[Owen]

TheFrog, on Nov 23 2011, 02:56 PM, said:

3D is the biggest joke I've ever heard of, on top of the fact that we have to pay for this trivial nonsense instead of proper full array LED's that have excellent picture performance by virtue of their superior tech.

LCD is not "superior tech" no matter how it is illuminated. Dynamic lighting systems are no substitute for high native contrast ratio and linear lighting performance.

Its a shame manufacturers concentrate on 3D and "features" rather than developing new display technologies that breaks free of LCD and Plasma limitations.

[TheFrog]

Owen, on Nov 23 2011, 04:29 PM, said:

LCD is not "superior tech" no matter how it is illuminated. Dynamic lighting systems are no substitute for high native contrast ratio and linear lighting performance.

Yes but there's no reason they can't add additional zones at some point, it can't stay expensive forever, and they can sell them for 2-4k depending on the size.
I have a 1080p 37in LCD with CCFL.....and if it had densely populated LED backlight, it would have to have better blacks, contrast and shadow detail, but instead, the focus of current HDTV's is on 3D and edge lit.

[Owen]

TheFrog, on Nov 24 2011, 12:56 AM, said:

Yes but there's no reason they can't add additional zones at some point, it can't stay expensive forever, and they can sell them for 2-4k depending on the size.
I have a 1080p 37in LCD with CCFL.....and if it had densely populated LED backlight, it would have to have better blacks, contrast and shadow detail, but instead, the focus of current HDTV's is on 3D and edge lit.

Until the "zones" get down to the size of a single pixel LCD cannot match Plasma, even then LCD will still look like LCD.

Most of the uniformity issues of LCD are due to the LCD panel not the lighting system and until lighting zones get down to single pixel size zone dimming will sacrifice shadow detail for black level.

Local dimming LCD is not the answer, bring on a new technology or stick to Plasma.

[David Williams]

TheFrog, on Nov 19 2011, 01:42 PM, said:

I don't know anyone who gives a damn about 3D....

Well 3D seems to do OK at the cinemas and there seem to be lots of Blu-ray titles with 3D available now as well. Pity there is so much price gouging on local releases though. Amazon to the rescue there.

Personally I don't care if they ever have 3D on FTA TV. I really only want to watch movies in 3D anyway. I don't want or need 3D for everything I watch.