78 replies to this topic

[jsmith]

IceZeroZero9, on Sep 29 2011, 01:16 PM, said:

They do probably 50% of their viewing in the daytime, but there is curtains and blinds in the lounge room so I guess they can close them up and control the ambient light quite a bit if glare is a problem.

Knowing my parents they would never close the blinds during the day, likely would turn the TV off if it was too bright to watch rather than be "sitting in a cave"...

You should have considered an LCD for that room.

Hope all is well anyway with your new setups.

JSmith  

[IceZeroZero9]

jsmith, on Oct 4 2011, 06:31 AM, said:

Knowing my parents they would never close the blinds during the day, likely would turn the TV off if it was too bright to watch rather than be "sitting in a cave"...

You should have considered an LCD for that room.

Hope all is well anyway with your new setups.

JSmith  

Yeah, thanks guys for all your help, got it installed in the upright position. I had two people holding each side while I screwed it into the stand.

Seems like a pretty good TV, maybe one of the best value TVs for the price to performance ratio out at the moment. So far they've had the blinds open during the day and a bit of light does reflect off the screen. Doesn't seem to bother them too much right now, but it's been overcast outside the last few days. We'll have to see how it looks on a bright day, but the screen definitely has a good deal of glare on it. Apart from that, I think it's a pretty good TV. If you have a light controlled room, I'd say it's a great buy, otherwise the glare might bother some people.

Got a question about break in. Should I be doing this or is them watching full screen foxtel movie channel with no black bars or watermarks enough, with the occasional change to a sports channel with watermarks OK? I just read about this a little bit in last week at the AVS forums, haven't really done any reading on it until now. I was aware of it, but didn't start reading up on it until now. Some people say to use a break in DVD, other people say you don't need to, just have to use some restraint for the first 100-200 hours. After that, can you be more loose with the programs you watch?

Edited by IceZeroZero9, 04 October 2011 - 01:20 PM.

[diesel]

IceZeroZero9, on Oct 4 2011, 02:19 PM, said:

other people say you don't need to, just have to use some restraint for the first 100-200 hours.

This is more my train of thought

[pgdownload]

Break in is largely a thing of the past (A few people that go to the trouble of professionally calibrating their screens might bother with it but otherwise everyday use is no problem). Just don't put the contrast/brightness settings up too high and don't leave the screen running for hours paused and you'll be fine.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[Owen]

No need for break in, just dont use an unnecessarily high contrast setting, ever.

[Riv39]

Owen, I know you've been probably asked this a million times but what do you reckon the max contrast should be.....I use 60% and to me it seems fine but am I to cautious as the set is used for everything from games to blueray?

BTW IceZero, some image persistence is normal as I only recently found out, don't stress if you/your parents see it (e.g. in an all black screeen) it will dissappear.  But as advised never leave static images displayed for extended periods.

Edited by Riv39, 05 October 2011 - 11:31 AM.

[pgdownload]

It probably doesn't matter all that much so long as you're not freezing the image. Many modern TVs have a 'Store Mode' that basically just ups the contrast/brightness to 100% or the like. But I'd just use your common sense - 60% sounds fine probably even 75% is too. Obviously it differs from TV to TV as well.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[IceZeroZero9]

pgdownload, on Oct 4 2011, 11:41 AM, said:

Break in is largely a thing of the past (A few people that go to the trouble of professionally calibrating their screens might bother with it but otherwise everyday use is no problem). Just don't put the contrast/brightness settings up too high and don't leave the screen running for hours paused and you'll be fine.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

Thanks for the info Peter. What is the point of break in anyway? If you do it during the first 200 hours is that supposed to stop your TV from getting burn in later, or is the first 200 hours the most likely time you could get burn in?

Owen, on Oct 4 2011, 04:07 PM, said:

No need for break in, just dont use an unnecessarily high contrast setting, ever.

What would you consider high contrast? I set the contrast to 50 for now, and have the TV set to the standard mode, I was going to leave it on 50 for the first 200 hours then take it a little higher. I was reading over at AVS forums some of the settings people are using with the Samsung, and I thought I'd give one of their settings a go after the TV has had 150-200 hours use. Some of the settings other users were using had the contrast up to around 70 if I recall correctly.

pgdownload, on Oct 5 2011, 10:57 AM, said:

It probably doesn't matter all that much so long as you're not freezing the image. Many modern TVs have a 'Store Mode' that basically just ups the contrast/brightness to 100% or the like. But I'd just use your common sense - 60% sounds fine probably even 75% is too. Obviously it differs from TV to TV as well.

OK, so even 70 isn't too high, that's good to know.

Riv39, on Oct 5 2011, 09:27 AM, said:

Owen, I know you've been probably asked this a million times but what do you reckon the max contrast should be.....I use 60% and to me it seems fine but am I to cautious as the set is used for everything from games to blueray?

BTW IceZero, some image persistence is normal as I only recently found out, don't stress if you/your parents see it (e.g. in an all black screeen) it will dissappear.  But as advised never leave static images displayed for extended periods.

When do you normally get image retention? Is that when you've had a TV station on with a watermark or a sports channel with the scoreboard like ESPN where it says up the whole time. What are the guidelines for watching channels with that sort of stuff, or for when watching movies with black bars?

Edited by IceZeroZero9, 05 October 2011 - 04:21 PM.

[Owen]

A TV has to be used and while the phosphor pixels of a Plasma screen age the fastest when the TV is new anything it experiences will be averaged out over time.
The appropriate contrast setting is dependant on the ambient lighting, dim environments will require a much low setting than bright environments so there is no one "correct' setting.
What's important is that you not use a higher setting than is comfortable for the environmnet as the higher the setting the greater risk of image retention. Having said that, if you feel the need to turn the contrast up to about 90% or more a Plasma is not the best choice as high settings cause more problems.

The actual contrast setting is not the main issue as 90% on one TV may be the same at 70% on another, the light output produced by that setting is what matters, if it looks bright it is likely too high. The harder you drive the phosphor pixels on a Plasma the less tolerant they will be of image retention, burn in or premature ageing .

[Riv39]

IceZeroZero9, on Oct 5 2011, 05:17 PM, said:

When do you normally get image retention? Is that when you've had a TV station on with a watermark or a sports channel with the scoreboard like ESPN where it says up the whole time. What are the guidelines for watching channels with that sort of stuff, or for when watching movies with black bars?

I believe the higher the contrast difference the more prone it will be to image retention, e.g. I note that the menu and input selection on my panasonic is a grey background with yellow lettering which never seems to leave any image retention.  My son left the TV on for about 5 hours once with the input selection displayed in the top corner on a black screen and no image retention was noted by me the next day.

I noticed it the other night by pure chance when my kids left the sony blueray player on displaying the menu (same menu as a PS3) for about 10min.  When I turned the player off I was left with a black screen and I could still see all the folders from the blueray's menu!  It was gone by the next eveneing to be replaced by the top bar of the PS2 game the kids were playing, it too dissapeared by the next day.

[temporary1]

ok, i'm adding to this 'older' thread as I'm having the same dilemmas...

Ok so im in the market for (i think) a 50inch plasma, and i had narrowed it down to either the p50u30 or the 51d550....

What i'm finding is bugging me potentially is reflections... After seeing a comment on how reflective the u30 was, i compared the panasonics u, s and g series and actually didnt like any of them. The U has a distinct double reflection of blue and white for off center reflections like the shop lights which I think might be very off putting. The S and G with their antiglare filter have a vertical diffraction pattern from a spot light reflection (i took in a small torch to test)... where as the samsung 5 series just had a single fuzzy dot reflection, which i'm thinking is the better of the options. Short of being able to black out the room - not easy here with an open plan house (impossible really...) I'm thinking this is my best option in this price bracket....   And looking at the more expensive models the samsung is comparable actually..
Am i overreacting?
edit: in fairness : the actual screens look good as far as images go, i cant really fault either of them with my untrained eye (unless i compare them to the $2-3000+ sets)

And on the subject of burn in... i've been told before that its a non issue, and i'd like to trust you guys, but the samsung manual is FULL of warnings about burn in and it not being covered by warranty and to avoid 4:3 tv and computer displays and games, and features to (afaict) to slowly wobble the screen a few pixels a minute, and to detect static images and screen save, and auto off timers etc etc... _They_ obviously still think its a problem or are they just pandering to old consumer fears?

Price wise there is about $50 in it this week, with the u30 being slightly cheaper at JB (i think-its a make a deal price so cant be sure...) so the samsung's  3d which i dont really plan on using isnt that much of a premium.. both around $900 with haggle minuses and warrenty/delivery pluses...

One question i'd like to find out is does either have per-input memory of settings? volume/video etc? it's horrible on my old set to have the tv volume to 40 for the pvr and 5 for the actual tv or 15 for the dvd... never know if the things on mute or if i'm going to have ringing in my ears for the evening...

Heavily leaning towards the samsung 51d550 unless i've missed something that i should be wary of... Anyone's views appreciated

Edited by temporary1, 30 October 2011 - 02:57 AM.

[pgdownload]

There's only so much you can do about reflections. While some have (slightly) better technologies, these usually come at the expense of other factors. Ultimately once you sit in one spot, directly ahead of the TV the brain will start filtering out reflections. A blind or two might help some particularly bright spots.

Burn In? For 'normal' viewing is now a non issue. It is however still possible to wreak a TV if you try really hard (which is why its excluded by warranty). Just don't pause an image for hours on end and keep the brightness off max. If you watch the same channel for 8 hours straight then its possible some residual image retention will occur around the logo but change channel for a bit to sort that.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[diesel]

temporary1, on Oct 30 2011, 03:55 AM, said:

Ok so im in the market for (i think) a 50inch plasma, and i had narrowed it down to either the p50u30 or the 51d550....

I'm thinking this is my best option in this price bracket....   And looking at the more expensive models the samsung is comparable actually..
Am i overreacting?

In my in-store experience, I didn't see too much difference between the models you mention in terms of filtering out reflections, but certainly the VT30 (Panasonic) and D8000 (Samsung) seemed to "dull" reflections the best. Certainly the screen filters on the ST/GT/VT and D8000/6900 were superior to the lower model Panasonics and Samsungs

[temporary1]

Thought I'd follow up my query with my decision... I ended up with the samsung 51d550 and I am not sorry
Test driven in home with a 720p media file of last weekend's F1 with a beanbag at point blank range and cant wipe the smile off my face
This thing is a full double the width and height of the old screen!! I have to look side to side to take it all in    (it's a bit more reasonable from the couch)

In-home reflections are not as much as the brightly lit store, and better than my old CRT. They dont bug me at all, but are present if i look for them in the dark on screen areas. Even in the day the screen is quite watchable and i only notice reflections in dark areas... The windows at the side of the TV are less of a problem as the flat screen is well, flat... so i dont see them anymore which i did with the curved cheapy CRT... I can even let the S.O. open the curtains a bit for something she calls "fresh air", and if I sit in the sweet spot all is good.

As advised i've got the brightness and contrast down ~50-60, for some burn in time, but with it cranked up, reflections are not an issue in my opinion in my setting etc etc

Any motion issues are not the issue with the screen as far as i can tell and depend more on the source... (but perhaps the "better" screens fix bad sources better?) who knows, but I'm certainly very happy. Might have been nice to have a d8000, but at double the price i'm not sure it would pay off...

It's also quite a capable media player, hitting everything i've thrown at it so far, including 720p mkv that my other player chokes on, and playing a 3d-half-sbs mkv. Port 1 plays a usb-powered WD 750gb drive ok, but not port 2 (it seems flash only), but they are labelled as such, so no biggy.

Remote maps pretty well to the dp-lite remote br01 (code 216 i think) with most everyday buttons there, somewhere... (popup=menu, arrows work, play/stop etc work, numbers, volume, channel etc )

Minor bugs: slow UI through the menus and some non-intuitive places for things scattered about. Would much prefer to have one big menu than a half dozen sub-menus, and the tree structure present lends itself to it... but once it's set up i guess i wont be going back and forth so much.
When in the media player if you're in a menu and you back out you can back out one too many times and be kicked out of the playback- and with the control lag this is a tad frustrating... leading into the player has no bookmark/resume memory so good luck finding where you were again. Skipping is by 10sec per click or some FF. You can search by time, but need a special key on the samsung remote ("tools" which isnt mapped on the beyonwiz remote) and then you press number buttons to go 1 0 0 0 0 to get to 1hr:00min:00sec and then enter, and then back once, not twice or your back to the file menu.
Last annoyance is that the channel change button will dump you from an input to the TV, so if you're on the HDMI input using the beyonwiz (say) and you change channel on the BW-remote, but accidentally have the remote on TV rather than STB you change the TV off the input and onto the MUCH louder TV-TV rather than the BW-TV... and then its a scramble to turn the volume down or change the inputs back. It really should just have the channel change buttons disabled when on other inputs....
Ok, one more annoyance- there is no per-input volume memory. Something i wish they would do more often, especially considering the the pvr/media players i have off HDMI are much quieter than the inbuilt TV tuner. There are dozens of setting in the UI already, having 8, 2 digit memories of last used volume (or offset) cant be that technologically difficult can it? Even setting the inputs to max themselves and exclusively using the TV vol is nowhere near close enough. Might be a job for some future amplifier package???
No deal breakers for me, just a silly bit of UI which could easily be addressed, but i wont hold my breath  

[pc9]

temporary1, on Nov 2 2011, 05:34 PM, said:

Thought I'd follow up my query with my decision... I ended up with the samsung 51d550 and I am not sorry
Test driven in home with a 720p media file of last weekend's F1 with a beanbag at point blank range and cant wipe the smile off my face
This thing is a full double the width and height of the old screen!! I have to look side to side to take it all in    (it's a bit more reasonable from the couch)

In-home reflections are not as much as the brightly lit store, and better than my old CRT. They dont bug me at all, but are present if i look for them in the dark on screen areas. Even in the day the screen is quite watchable and i only notice reflections in dark areas... The windows at the side of the TV are less of a problem as the flat screen is well, flat... so i dont see them anymore which i did with the curved cheapy CRT... I can even let the S.O. open the curtains a bit for something she calls "fresh air", and if I sit in the sweet spot all is good.

As advised i've got the brightness and contrast down ~50-60, for some burn in time, but with it cranked up, reflections are not an issue in my opinion in my setting etc etc

Any motion issues are not the issue with the screen as far as i can tell and depend more on the source... (but perhaps the "better" screens fix bad sources better?) who knows, but I'm certainly very happy. Might have been nice to have a d8000, but at double the price i'm not sure it would pay off...

It's also quite a capable media player, hitting everything i've thrown at it so far, including 720p mkv that my other player chokes on, and playing a 3d-half-sbs mkv. Port 1 plays a usb-powered WD 750gb drive ok, but not port 2 (it seems flash only), but they are labelled as such, so no biggy.

Remote maps pretty well to the dp-lite remote br01 (code 216 i think) with most everyday buttons there, somewhere... (popup=menu, arrows work, play/stop etc work, numbers, volume, channel etc )

Minor bugs: slow UI through the menus and some non-intuitive places for things scattered about. Would much prefer to have one big menu than a half dozen sub-menus, and the tree structure present lends itself to it... but once it's set up i guess i wont be going back and forth so much.
When in the media player if you're in a menu and you back out you can back out one too many times and be kicked out of the playback- and with the control lag this is a tad frustrating... leading into the player has no bookmark/resume memory so good luck finding where you were again. Skipping is by 10sec per click or some FF. You can search by time, but need a special key on the samsung remote ("tools" which isnt mapped on the beyonwiz remote) and then you press number buttons to go 1 0 0 0 0 to get to 1hr:00min:00sec and then enter, and then back once, not twice or your back to the file menu.
Last annoyance is that the channel change button will dump you from an input to the TV, so if you're on the HDMI input using the beyonwiz (say) and you change channel on the BW-remote, but accidentally have the remote on TV rather than STB you change the TV off the input and onto the MUCH louder TV-TV rather than the BW-TV... and then its a scramble to turn the volume down or change the inputs back. It really should just have the channel change buttons disabled when on other inputs....
Ok, one more annoyance- there is no per-input volume memory. Something i wish they would do more often, especially considering the the pvr/media players i have off HDMI are much quieter than the inbuilt TV tuner. There are dozens of setting in the UI already, having 8, 2 digit memories of last used volume (or offset) cant be that technologically difficult can it? Even setting the inputs to max themselves and exclusively using the TV vol is nowhere near close enough. Might be a job for some future amplifier package???
No deal breakers for me, just a silly bit of UI which could easily be addressed, but i wont hold my breath  

Also took the plunge and bought one yesterday and also pretty happy. (paid $880 at the local HN which is a little more than I had hoped for).

Cranked the contrast up to 100 and backlight to max straight away as I don't believe in mucking around although will accept any credible advice on this. My first few hours of fiddling were in daylight hours and as expected, the light reflection was definately a problem, but as I am a night time viewer primarily not too concerned about this.

Slightly dissappointed with processing of compressed foxtel sd stuff but overall very satisfied. Watched the X Files movie on ONE HD (VAST) last night and was really impressed with the blacks and general detail - this unit definately comes into its own in a light controlled room. I'm trying to figure out if there is any internet capability as too lazy to do the research at the moment. Also noticed that the effects of compression on Foxtel HD servies are not so evident as on the LED which this unit replaces.

On the down side, the internal tuner is pretty average (although this is not a problem for me as I watch VAST) but an external terrestrial tuner definately works better.  Will spend the rest of the weekend doing the calabrations and was wondering if there is any information on the correct settings. At the moment have it set to standard as it seems to produce a bit more detail and colour separation than vivid. Happy to pass on any further interesting revelations.

[diesel]

temporary1, on Nov 2 2011, 06:04 PM, said:

Last annoyance is that the channel change button will dump you from an input to the TV, so if you're on the HDMI input using the beyonwiz (say) and you change channel on the BW-remote, but accidentally have the remote on TV rather than STB you change the TV off the input and onto the MUCH louder TV-TV rather than the BW-TV... and then its a scramble to turn the volume down or change the inputs back. It really should just have the channel change buttons disabled when on other inputs....

Invest in a Harmony 650 or 700 universal remote and you can map whatever buttons you want/don't want and you only need to have the one remote out on the coffee table.

[TheFrog]

pc9, on Nov 5 2011, 06:45 AM, said:

Cranked the contrast up to 100 and backlight to max straight away

This is the worse thing you can do to a plasma, especially a new one, and I doubt PQ could possibly be at it's best at those settings.

[Owen]

pc9, on Nov 5 2011, 07:45 AM, said:

Cranked the contrast up to 100 and backlight to max straight away as I don't believe in mucking around although will accept any credible advice on this.

If you really want a picture that bright you should have purchased an LCD as driving a Plasma that hard is asking for trouble.
Do you where sunglasses when watching the TV at night?

[temporary1]

diesel, on Nov 5 2011, 05:55 AM, said:

Invest in a Harmony 650 or 700 universal remote and you can map whatever buttons you want/don't want and you only need to have the one remote out on the coffee table.

Nice idea wrt to the remote clutter, but it still doesnt solve the problem of the TV accepting the remote input of change channel -and doing so to the inbuilt tuner- when its on a HDMI input. Even if I map out the tv change channel buttons to do nothing it doesnt help if the wrong remote/keymap is used. The TV shouldnt accept a change of channel when it isnt in a mode that makes sense in  

TheFrog, on Nov 5 2011, 05:55 AM, said:

This is the worse thing you can do to a plasma, especially a new one, and I doubt PQ could possibly be at it's best at those settings.

Interesting question then... if the best pq settings online (link) say contrast 95 and brightness 55 (some say ~70) then is that what it should be for best use... or is the old dogma "oh, err, i wouldnt tun that up past 'fity' or it'll melt" actually mean something that 50 on one model is any reference to what another models settings are? or is my one going to be any louder because it goes to 11?  

either way i've clocked up close to 200hrs on burn in slides just in case, so i think its time to unleash the beast... /sunglasses/ ON  

[Owen]

There is no "best" setting for contrast and the setting number is arbitrary, 50% on one set could be like 100% on another. The real issue for Plasma is how hard the phosphor pixels are driven, the harder/brighter you drive the screen phosphors the quicker it ages and the more prone it is to image retention and burn in.

As the lighting in the viewing environment changes the contrast control needs to be adjusted to compensate. In a dark room contrast should backed off and in a bright room it needs to be turned up.
The aim is to maintain a comfortable light output level to avoid eye strain and not drive the panel any harder than necessary for the viewing environment. It is also possible to overdrive the panel resulting in clipping and colour shift in whites, both not good for picture quality.

A contrast setting of say 95% may be reasonable for daytime viewing but for night time or subdued light its just silly and not good for picture quality.

The "Brightness" controls set the black level of the picture, too high and black will look gray, too low and shadows will be crushed.
The setting will also need to vary depending on ambient lighting just like the Contrast setting.

Edited by Owen, 09 November 2011 - 10:25 PM.

[pc9]

Owen, on Nov 9 2011, 10:51 PM, said:

There is no "best" setting for contrast and the setting number is arbitrary, 50% on one set could be like 100% on another. The real issue for Plasma is how hard the phosphor pixels are driven, the harder/brighter you drive the screen phosphors the quicker it ages and the more prone it is to image retention and burn in.

As the lighting in the viewing environment changes the contrast control needs to be adjusted to compensate. In a dark room contrast should backed off and in a bright room it needs to be turned up.
The aim is to maintain a comfortable light output level to avoid eye strain and not drive the panel any harder than necessary for the viewing environment. It is also possible to overdrive the panel resulting in clipping and colour shift in whites, both not good for picture quality.

A contrast setting of say 95% may be reasonable for daytime viewing but for night time or subdued light its just silly and not good for picture quality.

The "Brightness" controls set the black level of the picture, too high and black will look gray, too low and shadows will be crushed.
The setting will also need to vary depending on ambient lighting just like the Contrast setting.

Sorry for all the fuss guys - should have advised that the 100% contrast and 20 backlight was just part of an initial performance test.  Backed off to 70% and 15.

[Owen]

Cool, Plasmas dont have a "back light" or any light for that matter, the pixels create light directly.

[pc9]

Owen, on Nov 10 2011, 10:15 AM, said:

Cool, Plasmas dont have a "back light" or any light for that matter, the pixels create light directly.

I think its called edge light or something and operates on a scale of 1 to 20.  It appears to be just another brightness control but will go home and have a look tonight.

[pgdownload]

pc9, on Nov 11 2011, 09:59 AM, said:

I think its called edge light or something and operates on a scale of 1 to 20.

Only thing I could find was:

Edge Enhancement (Off / On): Emphasize object boundaries

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[guardian452]

Was specifically checking out the black filter on the Samsung Series 8 plasmas vs the Series 5 plasmas yesterday, and conveniently found that a couple of Panasonic ST30s and ST30A's were right next to those Samsungs.

Previously, I wasnt sure if the lack of the black filter on the Series 5 plasmas would bother me, but with a side by side comparison (using stock shop settings I guess) the Series 8 and also the ST30's displayed *significantly* better blacks than the Series 5's (which were notably greyish).  Admittedly, it was not remarkably bad when displaying normal movie scenes, it really stood out in the end credits and assumedly on dark movies would so too.

Mind you, the ST30's suffered from no judder on the scrolling end credits whereas the Series 8 and Series 5 plasma's did (not sure if frame interpolation was turned on for the ST30's though).