78 replies to this topic

[Owen]

IceZeroZero9, on Sep 28 2011, 12:50 AM, said:

So if you get a player that has upscaling can you run Foxtel through that too?

I am not aware of any "player" that can accept and external input for deinterlacing and scaling, that's the job of a stand alone video processor or high end AV receiver which are out of your budget unless you could get a suitable model second hand at the right price. You are going to have to put up with what the TV's internal processing provides.

The Samsung 51D550 is basically a top end D8000 without the anti reflective screen coating, special screen filter and extra "smart" functionality making it very good value for money.

The Panasonic P50U30A is a basic model with nothing in common with its more expensive brothers the ST30, GT30 and VT30, all of which use a different panel and drive electronics to the U30.

I have not seen the U30 in action but have seen the D8000 in direct comparison to the ST30 and GT30 displaying the same free to air channel and the difference was stark. The ST and GT Panasonic's looked essentially identical and suffered from lots of compression artefacts and noise making the picture look very digital and nasty. The noise filter in the D8000 (which the D550 also has) made a huge difference and did an excellent job of cleaning up the picture to make it acceptable to watch.

I really dont expect the U30 to outperform the ST30 or GT30 so based on my experience I would have to recommend the 51D550 over the 50U30 Panasonic. If you want a Panasonic go for an ST30.

At a 2 metre viewing distance the HD models are not suitable so the field is narrowed to 1080 models only.

[pc9]

Owen, on Sep 27 2011, 09:31 PM, said:

Panasonic's have always mangled SD and it seems current Samsung's do as well.
How well SD is deinterlaced and upscaled makes a big difference to the end result. If you have an Austar Mystar HD set top box set to 1080i output it must deinterlace and upscale and it will degrade the SD channels as it does not do a very good job. If you set the box to 576i output the TV will have to deinterlace and upscale SD which can be a problem on some displays as well.

A decent video processor would get around the limitations of many displays as would a good AV receiver.

I dont know what your viewing distance is but a 50" is small. I have used Foxtel-Austar SD as my primary viewing source for 11 years from a distance of 2.8 metres would not want to go down to a 50" for any reason.

Thanks for your response but now I am getting really depressed - I thought the 50" + quality plasma market was limited to Panasonic and Samsung based on superior video processing.  Is there any 50+ TV panel that does a better job with processing SD? Can you advise what brand and model TV you watch Foxtel on and give a rating please.

Also, am currently passing everything through a Pioneer late model AV reciever and no matter what setting I use (576i through to 1080p) and which devices (ie HDMI 1.3/1.4, component) I can't improve SD quality, however again I stress that my current TV is an LG 55" LED.

To conclude I would be wrapt to get hold of a 55" plasma and get reasonable results with SD.

Cheers.

[IceZeroZero9]

miata, on Sep 28 2011, 07:21 AM, said:

I'm with you, I would rather wait a few weeks for the Panasonic than have to put up with a Samsung.

Can you elaborate please?

Owen, on Sep 28 2011, 08:56 AM, said:

The Samsung 51D550 is basically a top end D8000 without the anti reflective screen coating, special screen filter and extra "smart" functionality making it very good value for money.

I have not seen the U30 in action but have seen the D8000 in direct comparison to the ST30 and GT30 displaying the same free to air channel and the difference was stark. The ST and GT Panasonic's looked essentially identical and suffered from lots of compression artefacts and noise making the picture look very digital and nasty. The noise filter in the D8000 (which the D550 also has) made a huge difference and did an excellent job of cleaning up the picture to make it acceptable to watch.

I really dont expect the U30 to outperform the ST30 or GT30 so based on my experience I would have to recommend the 51D550 over the 50U30 Panasonic. If you want a Panasonic go for an ST30.

Thanks for the info. So you're saying that the Samsung should be superior to the U30A? and the Panasonic direct competitor to it is the ST30, not the U30A? Unfortunately, there's no stock of any ST30s in town. The only TV in stock right now is the Samsung D550 at $1380 including 5 year EW, which I guess is a pretty good price, but still above my limit.

[pgdownload]

pc9, on Sep 28 2011, 01:46 PM, said:

Thanks for your response but now I am getting really depressed

Owen can be a little emphatic in his answers What he might see as 'stark' could well be quite subtle. 50" is 'small' to him but still considered pretty large in most households

Foxtel does pretty bad SD regardless of what TV its shown on. An AV receiver (or any device) can only do so much to improve a SD image. It is a bit strange you can't see any difference changing the AV settings. Does the TV indicate a change in resolution when you switch it on the AV? Could the TV have a menu option to do its own resolution output?

You should be able to go in store and see a few current models doing SD FTA channels?

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[jsmith]

IceZeroZero9, on Sep 28 2011, 03:14 PM, said:

Can you elaborate please?

Just the typical Samsung bashing you get around these parts mate from certain members, I'm not even sure what he's getting at...  

Nothing wrong with the Sammy's in fact some prefer them. Certain models have a better screen filter than the Panny's anyway which makes a big difference to the blacks if any light is on the screen.

IceZeroZero9, on Sep 28 2011, 03:14 PM, said:

The only TV in stock right now is the Samsung D550 at $1380 including 5 year EW, which I guess is a pretty good price, but still above my limit.

I'm sure they'll do a better deal than that, try offering $1200 cash.

Best of luck,

JSmith  

[IceZeroZero9]

jsmith, on Sep 28 2011, 03:06 PM, said:

Just the typical Samsung bashing you get around these parts mate from certain members, I'm not even sure what he's getting at...  

Nothing wrong with the Sammy's in fact some prefer them. Certain models have a better screen filter than the Panny's anyway which makes a big difference to the blacks if any light is on the screen.



I'm sure they'll do a better deal than that, try offering $1200 cash.

Best of luck,

JSmith  

Thanks mate. They gave me a quote for $1200, just like you said . I didn't take it on the spot though, but I think I'll take it.

At this price, I think this is better value that then Panasonic TH-P50U30A, which also has a 6 week waiting period. Do you guys agree that this is a decent screen for that price?

[diesel]

Cable connection have the D550 for $998

Myer have the Panasonic U30 for $799

[Owen]

pc9, on Sep 28 2011, 01:46 PM, said:

Thanks for your response but now I am getting really depressed - I thought the 50" + quality plasma market was limited to Panasonic and Samsung based on superior video processing.  Is there any 50+ TV panel that does a better job with processing SD? Can you advise what brand and model TV you watch Foxtel on and give a rating please.

Also, am currently passing everything through a Pioneer late model AV reciever and no matter what setting I use (576i through to 1080p) and which devices (ie HDMI 1.3/1.4, component) I can't improve SD quality, however again I stress that my current TV is an LG 55" LED.

To conclude I would be wrapt to get hold of a 55" plasma and get reasonable results with SD.

Cheers.

Panasonic have never had "superior video processing" and have been deliberately low pass filtering 576i SD for years which makes the picture unnecessarily soft.
Samsung have had class leading video processing for years and used to do a very good job with SD, however at least some current Samsungs are filtering SD like the Panasonics, something Samsung never used to do.
Why Samsung have changed their approach is a mystery and its disappointing. Its not clear which Samsung models are affected but the base model D450 Plasma and mid range 6 series LCD's are confirmed to have this issue. I dont know about the D550 or higher model Plasma's but they have a very effective noise reduction system that makes it unnecessary to employ low pass filtering to clean up low quality SD, so its likely they dont.

In all cases the work around to SD filtering is to deinterlace and upscale SD externally and feed the TV a 1080 signal which it will not low pass filter.

If you want the TV or AV receiver to process SD from Foxtel/Austar the set top box must be set to 576i output if its a HD unit. If its set to 1080 output the box is doing the processing, which it may or may not do well.

[Owen]

pgdownload, on Sep 28 2011, 04:14 PM, said:

Owen can be a little emphatic in his answers What he might see as 'stark' could well be quite subtle. 50" is 'small' to him but still considered pretty large in most households

Foxtel does pretty bad SD regardless of what TV its shown on. An AV receiver (or any device) can only do so much to improve a SD image. It is a bit strange you can't see any difference changing the AV settings. Does the TV indicate a change in resolution when you switch it on the AV? Could the TV have a menu option to do its own resolution output?

You should be able to go in store and see a few current models doing SD FTA channels?

Regards

Peter Gillespie

I was not exaggerating mate, the compression artefacts on the Panasonic's where bloody obvious and very distracting, on the Samsung which was next to them the artefacts where almost completely absent. That's not a "subtle" difference.

Foxtel/Austar content is pre-filtered to make it easy to compress, the result is a softer image than free to air BUT there are almost no compression artefacts and noise.

[Owen]

IceZeroZero9, on Sep 28 2011, 03:14 PM, said:

Thanks for the info. So you're saying that the Samsung should be superior to the U30A? and the Panasonic direct competitor to it is the ST30, not the U30A? Unfortunately, there's no stock of any ST30s in town. The only TV in stock right now is the Samsung D550 at $1380 including 5 year EW, which I guess is a pretty good price, but still above my limit.

Yes its safe to say the D550 Samsung is superior to the U30S Panasonic in just about every way. The ST30 is a better match in most respects but it has a much better screen filter than the D550 which is important in environments that are not dim to dark.

The 51D550 should cost less than $1000.

[pc9]

Owen, on Sep 28 2011, 08:04 PM, said:

Yes its safe to say the D550 Samsung is superior to the U30S Panasonic in just about every way. The ST30 is a better match in most respects but it has a much better screen filter than the D550 which is important in environments that are not dim to dark.

The 51D550 should cost less than $1000.

I'm completely over compression artefacts so its the Samsung plasma for me then.  I have a couple of futher questions though:

1) if I go for the D8000 with the anti reflective stuff will this give me a better image in a light controlled room?
2) how does the 59" versions of both Samsung models hold up with the SD pictures.

[Owen]

The anti reflective coating and screen filter that maintains black level under ambient light only makes a significant difference when the environment is bright, the better the light control the less it is relevant.
The 59" is no better or worse than the 51", the end result will depends on your viewing distance.

I have been viewing SD Austar on a 70" 1080 TV from a distance of about 3 metres for over 4 years and have no complaints.

[diesel]

Owen, on Sep 28 2011, 07:26 PM, said:

I was not exaggerating mate, the compression artefacts on the Panasonic's where bloody obvious and very distracting, on the Samsung which was next to them the artefacts where almost completely absent. That's not a "subtle" difference.

I have to jump in and say that I saw the opposite in HN the other day. They had a wall full of plasma and LCDs all showing the same OneHD show. There was 64" D8000 sandwiched between a 60" ST and a 65" VT. Both Panasonics didn't seem quite as sharp as the D8000, but the D8000 had a lot of artefacts especially noticeable around the OneHD logo whilst the two Panasonics seemed a lot cleaner. Now I hate to compare PQ based on shop settings etc, but it was noticeable.

[IceZeroZero9]

Owen, on Sep 28 2011, 05:34 PM, said:

Yes its safe to say the D550 Samsung is superior to the U30S Panasonic in just about every way. The ST30 is a better match in most respects but it has a much better screen filter than the D550 which is important in environments that are not dim to dark.

The 51D550 should cost less than $1000.

How bad is the glare on the 51D550? How dark do you need to have the room for it to not be a distraction? Now that I am looking into that model, that is one of the main drawbacks I am reading about it and it's starting to put me off a little bit.

It's out of my price range, but curious, what is the average price of the 50 inch ST30? And what should it be selling for? I assume the prices of the Panasonic screens this year is because of shortages and the disaster in Japan, or did Panasonic decide to raise their prices a little more irregardless of that?

[diesel]

To be honest, they all still suffer from glare. Walk into any store and have a look. The AR coating on the higher end screens reduce the glare, but don't eliminate it.
For me, the 'grey' blacks are more of a concern in the room where I am putting my new TV.

[Owen]

IceZeroZero9, on Sep 28 2011, 10:26 PM, said:

How bad is the glare on the 51D550? How dark do you need to have the room for it to not be a distraction? Now that I am looking into that model, that is one of the main drawbacks I am reading about it and it's starting to put me off a little bit.

It's out of my price range, but curious, what is the average price of the 50 inch ST30? And what should it be selling for? I assume the prices of the Panasonic screens this year is because of shortages and the disaster in Japan, or did Panasonic decide to raise their prices a little more irregardless of that?

Its the direction of the light source that matters more than its magnitude as far as reflections go. The D550 is no worse than a flat screen CRT as far as reflections go.

I am not a fan of anti reflective screens as they put a haze over the image, however if the room cannot be arranged to minimise reflections they can be helpful. The screen filter that maintains black level is far more important and neither the D550 or U30A have a screen filter, you have to pay more money for that feature.

[Owen]

diesel, on Sep 28 2011, 09:45 PM, said:

I have to jump in and say that I saw the opposite in HN the other day. They had a wall full of plasma and LCDs all showing the same OneHD show. There was 64" D8000 sandwiched between a 60" ST and a 65" VT. Both Panasonics didn't seem quite as sharp as the D8000, but the D8000 had a lot of artefacts especially noticeable around the OneHD logo whilst the two Panasonics seemed a lot cleaner. Now I hate to compare PQ based on shop settings etc, but it was noticeable.

The Samsung use way too much sharpening and have exaggerated colour by default, the Panasonic's dont but they dont have the noise reduction performance of the Samsung's.
Unfortunately the noise reduction cant be disabled in 2011 models if you dont want it which is ridiculous IMHO.

Both Panasonic's and Samsung's design and or marketing departments need a good kicking, they just cant get the basics right.

Edited by Owen, 28 September 2011 - 11:19 PM.

[IceZeroZero9]

Owen, on Sep 28 2011, 09:00 PM, said:

Its the direction of the light source that matters more than its magnitude as far as reflections go. The D550 is no worse than a flat screen CRT as far as reflections go.

I am not a fan of anti reflective screens as they put a haze over the image, however if the room cannot be arranged to minimise reflections they can be helpful. The screen filter that maintains black level is far more important and neither the D550 or U30A have a screen filter, you have to pay more money for that feature.

Alright, I think I'll get the 51D550 for the parents since an ST30 is out of their price range, and then maybe look at an ST30 for myself in a few months time when the prices come down a bit.

They do probably 50% of their viewing in the daytime, but there is curtains and blinds in the lounge room so I guess they can close them up and control the ambient light quite a bit if glare is a problem.

btw does the ST30 have a screen filter for the black level that you mentioned above? What price do you expect the 50 inch version to be in a few months time? I'm seeing around $1500 right now.

Edit : Also got a question about Extended Warranty. If you get a 4 year EW, and if your TV stuffs up after the first year, in which case they give you a new screen/new model from that year, does the warranty become invalid from that point on? Need info on this today if possible.

Edited by IceZeroZero9, 29 September 2011 - 01:07 PM.

[diesel]

IceZeroZero9, on Sep 29 2011, 12:16 PM, said:

btw does the ST30 have a screen filter for the black level that you mentioned above? What price do you expect the 50 inch version to be in a few months time? I'm seeing around $1500 right now.

Yep, the ST30 has the "louvre" filter. By run out time you may see these pushing near $1000-$1100

IceZeroZero9, on Sep 29 2011, 12:16 PM, said:

Edit : Also got a question about Extended Warranty. If you get a 4 year EW, and if your TV stuffs up after the first year, in which case they give you a new screen/new model from that year, does the warranty become invalid from that point on? Need info on this today if possible.

Short answer is yes. Read the T&Cs though, as often you'll get an 'equivalent' model and not necessarily the same i.e. a UT for an ST as a newer UT may have the same feature set as your old ST.
My understanding is that the EW is purchased on the original TV. If that is replaced under warranty, then the EW is no longer valid on the new TV. If it were simply repaired under warranty. then the EW would continue??? Please correct me if I'm wrong guys.

[IceZeroZero9]

diesel, on Sep 29 2011, 11:59 AM, said:

Yep, the ST30 has the "louvre" filter. By run out time you may see these pushing near $1000-$1100


Short answer is yes. Read the T&Cs though, as often you'll get an 'equivalent' model and not necessarily the same i.e. a UT for an ST as a newer UT may have the same feature set as your old ST.
My understanding is that the EW is purchased on the original TV. If that is replaced under warranty, then the EW is no longer valid on the new TV. If it were simply repaired under warranty. then the EW would continue??? Please correct me if I'm wrong guys.

Yeah, I'll keep watching the price of the ST30. Probably get that one if it comes down to about $1100 at some point.

What happens if the original TV has to be replaced during the first year rather than repaired? Do you get multiple replacements?

So it's a definite "yes" if they give you a new model that the EW expires? Is there usually any warranty on the new TV if they give you an equivalent replacement (UT for an old ST) like you mentioned?

Do most of you guys get EW or not worry about it?

Thanks.

Edited by IceZeroZero9, 29 September 2011 - 02:14 PM.

[pgdownload]

IceZeroZero9, on Sep 29 2011, 02:10 PM, said:

Do most of you guys get EW or not worry about it?

I don't bother with EW for most products. However I do for cameras and TVs.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[diesel]

I did for my 5 year old Pana plasma. At the time it cost me $4k, and there was no way I could afford to replace it for at least 3-4 years so I figured it was a good bet. Plus I still thought the tech had some maturing to do. These days the tech is mature, but the cost cutting to get sharp pricing has me concerned that there are some cheap parts in play and leave me less than comfortable.

It end ups being about how confident you feel about the TV lasting and whether you can afford to replace your TV if it fails within 2-3 years. By then prices have dropped and technology/features have moved on anyway.

I buy EW on TVs purely because they are a relatively big outlay (after cars) but that's about it. Everything else I buy is sub $1500 which I can replace more readily.

[IceZeroZero9]

Alright, got the Samsung today and was about to install it for the parents, but just curious how you install the stand.

Do you lay the TV face down flat on something soft like a bed? I thought you had to keep the screen upright during installation?

Edited by IceZeroZero9, 01 October 2011 - 12:40 AM.

[Owen]

The screen should be transported upright to help prevent breakage, you can lay it down to install the stand.

[Wing Nut]

I've seen plasmas stacked and carried flat on a few occasions including loading bays, warehouses and freight depots. While the manufacturer, new owners and a few others in between might be careful to ensure they're kept upright, especially when transported, I think most plasmas are more resilient than the upright warnings suggest. I also suspect older models might be more fragile. However, I'd still treat all big screens with care. Except for an occasional lie down while installing, upright is still best - especially in the back of a truck.