21 replies to this topic

[pjc]

Gawd, I am going around in circles.......

The main requirement is good anti-reflective technology as it will be in a bright room with lots of windows.  Off axis viewing is also important (it's why I am getting rid of the LCD) but there shouldn't be any difference between the two.
I think I would get the D8000 but for the wobbly stand and silver bezel. I also prefer the GT30 to the ST30 in styling.

So is the Panasonic's louvre and blacks better than just the Samsung's anti reflective coating which may peel?  Is it worth the extra cash?  
Any comments from those who have managed to compare these two models would be great.  I live in regional Queensland and we don't have a huge range of floor stock to compare. Thx.

[hazamatic]

The D6900 doesn't have the "real black filter" which the D8000 and last years C7000 has. As I understand it this feature makes a real difference in bright rooms. I'm not sure if the new pana has this feature or not (Vt20 did) but if it does I would go for the pana.

[andys]

hazamatic, on Jun 6 2011, 08:04 AM, said:

The D6900 doesn't have the "real black filter" which the D8000 and last years C7000 has. As I understand it this feature makes a real difference in bright rooms. I'm not sure if the new pana has this feature or not (Vt20 did) but if it does I would go for the pana.

The Panny ST, GT & VT all have the anti-reflective louvre filter. In a bright room the Panny will perform much, much better than the D6900. If you wanted to go Samsung the D8000 is your only option. The D8000 does look very nice wall mounted, and then you wouldn't have to worry about those claws! You will pay more for a similar sized Panny.

Andys.

[Owen]

pjc, on Jun 6 2011, 05:38 AM, said:

I think I would get the D8000 but for the wobbly stand and silver bezel. I also prefer the GT30 to the ST30 in styling.

What makes you think the stand is wobbly? If it has the same area and is rigid it should be just as stable as a flat stand.
If you dont like the look change it, I believe the C7000 stand fits.

pjc, on Jun 6 2011, 05:38 AM, said:

So is the Panasonic's louvre and blacks better than just the Samsung's anti reflective coating which may peel?  Is it worth the extra cash?  
Any comments from those who have managed to compare these two models would be great.  I live in regional Queensland and we don't have a huge range of floor stock to compare. Thx.

If you cant see that one is better than the other without having them side by side they are obviously not very different.
Last years C7000 seems to have the same AR coating as the D8000 and know one in Oz ever reported a pealing screen, and if it does peal it will be replaced.
Unless the Panasonic's have improved a lot over last year the anti reflective performance will not be on par with the D8000 Samsung.

In the end its your call, wait until you have seen both before deciding.

[andys]

Owen, the filter on the ST (at least) appears to be the same as last year from my observations. While it's very good, I'd say say the Sammy (D8000) still has the edge, as it did last when comparing the C7000 with the VT20. (I had both tv's). In all likelyhood the D8000 will offer the best bang for your buck.

I quite like the silver bezel myself. I think the Panny Z54 (a beautiful tv) from a couple of years back was the last to offer a silver bezel. I for one, am glad to see the return of silver! Each to their own of course.

As Owen said, do a side by side comparison if possible before deciding.

Andys.

[pjc]

Thanks for your input.

Owen, on Jun 6 2011, 05:22 PM, said:

What makes you think the stand is wobbly?

First hand experience (albeit with a 59D8000).  It wobbles with the slightest touch.  The D6900 (again the 59") is far sturdier.  The ST30A is very solid.  (I wonder how much a C7000 stand would be.  Might look into that option, thanks)

[pjc]

Just to let those who replied know...... I have a 50GT30A.  The anti reflective louvre works well. Very sturdy base.  THX mode is pretty good out of the box.  Going through the DVE bluray set up now but taking quite a while.  Wish we had someone to calibrate here abouts.  Thanks.

Edited by pjc, 12 June 2011 - 09:11 AM.

[andys]

I had a quick look at the GT yesterday & it certainly impressed. I think the VT's will be worth waiting for.

Andys.

[PersianImmortal]

Congrats on the GT30. Have you had a chance to look through the Professional 1/2 presets - I'm curious if the White Balance options are the normal 2 point (Gain and Cut) or if the GT gets 10-point WB as well. I know the VT does, but I'm not clear on whether the GT does.

Otherwise I think the GT will be the best choice out of this years models. Based on specs I can't see how the VT would really provide that much more to justify its price difference.

[pjc]

PersianImmortal, on Jun 12 2011, 01:18 PM, said:

I'm curious if the White Balance options are the normal 2 point (Gain and Cut) or if the GT gets 10-point WB as well.

Only Gain & Cut available.  Interestingly, I have been looking on AVSForum for calibration settings and the US model seem to have a slightly different set of parameters.

[andys]

PersianImmortal, on Jun 12 2011, 01:18 PM, said:

Based on specs I can't see how the VT would really provide that much more to justify its price difference.

The VT will provide slightly better blacks again (as the GT does over the ST), more calibration options, a sub-woofer, and 3D Glasses. I heard a rumour that the VT's will come packaged with Avatar 3D. I guess you have to decide wether or not those extras justify the price difference. When the prices drop the VT may then become a viable option. In the U.S. the GT's suffer quite badly from brightness flucuations/floating whites, whereas those issues are reported to be miminal at best on the VT. Should our GT's not suffer those issues, then as you say, the GT will be one of year's best choices.

Andys.

Edited by andys, 13 June 2011 - 10:45 AM.

[PersianImmortal]

andys, on Jun 13 2011, 08:34 AM, said:

In the U.S. the GT's suffer quite badly from brightness flucuations and floating whites...

I was under the impression that brightness fluctuations are what's referred to as 'floating whites', and also that it affects all (ST, GT, VT) Panasonics this year. I also thought it was THX mode that minimized it, not a particular model.

[andys]

PersianImmortal, on Jun 13 2011, 09:32 AM, said:

I was under the impression that brightness fluctuations are what's referred to as 'floating whites', and also that it affects all (ST, GT, VT) Panasonics this year. I also thought it was THX mode that minimized it, not a particular model.

It does affect all of the series, but as I said at its worst on the GT, and miminal on the VT. Yes, it's the same thing. (That was meant to be a "/" rather than an "and"). Have not read about THX mode minimizing the affect, but have read that disabling C.A.T.S. (which we normally don't get on the Oz models), also helps to reduce the affect.

Andys.

[Owen]

All Plasma TV's have floating whites, white level in a very bright scene are typically half as bright as whites in a dark scene. This is normal and affects every Plasma made to date.

The "floating whites" or dynamic contrast on some of the Panasonics is a separate issue and is a deliberate feature not a fault, just like the rising black level. It may be disable able, but there is no reason to expect Oz models will be any different to to US models in this regard.

Most LCD TV's both LED and CCFL have floating whites and blacks due to dynamic lighting and its not always possible to disable this annoying "feature". Only the cheap models don’t have a dynamic lighting function.
LCD dynamic "float" is the inverse of Plasma float, when a Plasma gets dimmer the LCD gets brighter, both are wrong.

Edited by Owen, 13 June 2011 - 12:39 PM.

[pjc]

I was concerned about the "floating whites".  As always it is hard to decide what they actually are.  Certainly with Eco Mode on there are the floating whites present.  I have minimally tweaked the THX mode to suit my liking and I see no fluctuations with Eco Mode off.  THX mode is certainly pretty good for the average viewer as is.  Quite a step up from an 8A series Samsung LCD. The THX is not quite bright enough for daytime viewing in my extremely will lit room but all of our serious viewing is in the evening.

[PersianImmortal]

andys, on Jun 13 2011, 10:44 AM, said:

Have not read about THX mode minimizing the affect, but have read that disabling C.A.T.S. (which we normally don't get on the Oz models), also helps to reduce the affect.

Eco Mode on Australian models is what uses the CATS sensor on the front of the TV, so disabling Eco Mode - which is recommended - fixes that. THX/True Cinema/Prof 1/2 modes are all slightly dimmer as pjc notes, which helps reduce the impact of floating whites.

pjc, on Jun 13 2011, 12:36 PM, said:

I have minimally tweaked the THX mode to suit my liking and I see no fluctuations with Eco Mode off.  THX mode is certainly pretty good for the average viewer as is.  Quite a step up from an 8A series Samsung LCD. The THX is not quite bright enough for daytime viewing in my extremely will lit room but all of our serious viewing is in the evening.

I doubt you'll see the fluctuating whites very often, if at all. From reading the AVS forums I get the distinct impression that this is another beat-up similar to floating blacks. Yes, it's there and it's undesirable, but its practical impact is minimal for most people. Just enjoy your TV

And yes, THX mode on the Panas will be dimmer and hence not necessarily as good for daytime viewing. All you need to do is use the Professional 1 and 2 presets as Night and Day settings respectively - that's actually what they're there for. They're both THX-based settings, so just copy across your settings from the THX preset to the Professional 1 preset for normal (nighttime) viewing, and set up Professional 2 with similar settings, but using slightly higher Contrast/Brightness for daytime viewing.

Edited by PersianImmortal, 13 June 2011 - 01:08 PM.

[pjc]

PersianImmortal, on Jun 13 2011, 01:07 PM, said:

They're both THX-based settings, so just copy across your settings from the THX preset to the Professional 1 preset for normal (nighttime) viewing, and set up Professional 2 with similar settings, but using slightly higher Contrast/Brightness for daytime viewing.

Thanks for the hint.  Cheers

[andys]

PersianImmortal, on Jun 13 2011, 01:07 PM, said:

Eco Mode on Australian models is what uses the CATS sensor on the front of the TV, so disabling Eco Mode - which is recommended - fixes that.

I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for the info.

Andys.

[Bosch]

andys, on Jun 13 2011, 08:34 AM, said:

The VT will provide slightly better blacks again (as the GT does over the ST), more calibration options, a sub-woofer, and 3D Glasses. I heard a rumour that the VT's will come packaged with Avatar 3D. I guess you have to decide wether or not those extras justify the price difference. When the prices drop the VT may then become a viable option. In the U.S. the GT's suffer quite badly from brightness flucuations/floating whites, whereas those issues are reported to be miminal at best on the VT. Should our GT's not suffer those issues, then as you say, the GT will be one of year's best choices.

Andys.

On that note...I have compared the VT30 and GT30 specs side by side on Panasonic AU's website. It's true that the VT30 has more calibration options, different audio hardware, glasses included, etc. But if the image/screen specs appear to be identical, are you saying that an un-mentioned characteristic of the VT30 screen and/or image processing will give it better black level performance over the GT30? If this was the case, I'm surprised Panasonic do not show this on their specifications. Then again, the specs don't mention issues like floating whites either.  

Comparing the PDF manuals, the only difference I found were the extra calibration settings on the VT30:

Quote

More Detailed

Adjustment
Adjusts more detailed Colour Management items
[Y-Hue] / [C-Hue] / [M-Hue]:
Adjusts the picture hue of yellow, cyan or magenta area
[Y-Saturation] / [C-Saturation] / [M-Saturation]:
Adjusts the saturation of yellow, cyan or magenta area
[Y-Luminance] / [C-Luminance] / [M-Luminance]:
Adjusts the luminance of yellow, cyan or magenta area
[Reset Colour Management]:
Press the OK button to reset to the default detailed Colour Management

I was aiming to get a VT30A, but I'm now finding it hard to justify getting one over the GT30A. The single sheet of glass design on the VT30 isn't enough, either. Reduced glitches would do it, though, assuming they are a problem with the GT30A. Thanks for any info.

Rod

Edited by Bosch, 13 June 2011 - 11:16 PM.

[PersianImmortal]

Actually it looks like Andys is right in that apparently the VT30 goes deeper in blacks than the GT30, and is also less prone to fluctuations even in THX mode. This Review has more details:

Quote

Black level: The VT30 reproduced an extremely dark shade of black, outdoing the GT30, the LG, and the Samsung plasmas, although it still couldn't get quite as dark as the VT25, the Vizio or the Pioneer. Of course the VT25 (which we measured at 0.004 fL) only had a couple hundred hours on it; we its black level to worsen as it ages further, while according to Panasonic, the VT30's black levels won't change. If that's the case, then the VT30 is the new plasma black level runner-up to the Pioneer Kuro, but we won't know for sure until we can test how the VT30 ages.

The difference in absolute depth of black was quite subtle between the VT30 (0.0061 fL) and the Samsung (0.0071), not to mention the GT30 (0.0082), but between the three the VT30 produced the best picture in dark scenes like the nighttime forest in Chapter 10. While the VT30's gamma measurement was inferior to the Samsung's, the latter obscured details in shadows, such as the plants at 33:38 and the back of Jake's avatar's hair at 34:03. Such details were a bit too bright on the VT30 compared to our reference, but still closer than the other two. Black areas appeared inky and deep, lending the customary pop to every scene.

We looked for fluctuations in the level of black and gray but couldn't find any in "Avatar." We also checked both of the scenes from "Tron: Legacy" where the GT30 showed such fluctuations and they didn't occur on the VT30 (and didn't on the ST30, either).

[andys]

The reviews/user reviews would certainly indicate that the VT30 is worth waiting for. I'm sure there's characteristics behind the panel (software/hardware) that Panny won't put down on a spec sheet. We'll have to wait until they're here to see for ourselves, and then judge wether or not it's enough of a step-up to warrant the extra cash. In my eyes the GT does do that over the ST.

Maybe we should continue this discussion on the Panny 2011 thread.

Andys.

[AlexMJ]

pjc, on Jun 6 2011, 07:56 PM, said:

First hand experience (albeit with a 59D8000).  It wobbles with the slightest touch.  The D6900 (again the 59") is far sturdier.  The ST30A is very solid.  (I wonder how much a C7000 stand would be.  Might look into that option, thanks)

I agree about the wobble on the Samsung D8000  

Did you ever find out how much a C7000 stand costs?