85 replies to this topic

[diesel]

Saw the new Panasonic DVD Recorders in JB HiFi Chatswood today. It was the DMR-XW385. About the only two things that I could make out that are different to last years models was the 385 had a 320GB HDD and they now support HD DivX. Not sure whether they'll bet a 485 but I guess it'll have a 500GB HDD?? No 485 model. I think it's place in the Panasonic value chain has been replaced by the Bluray Playing + PVR DMR-PWT500  
Time will tell.

Price was ~$598 IIRC - that's $200 less than the launch price of last years model.

Edited by diesel, 12 May 2011 - 10:13 PM.

[Beets]

 diesel, on May 3 2011, 07:07 PM, said:

Saw the new Panasonic DVD Recorders in JB HiFi Chatswood today. It was the DMR-XW385. About the only two things that I could make out that are different to last years models was the 385 had a 320GB HDD and they now support HD DivX. Not sure whether they'll bet a 485 but I guess it'll have a 500GB HDD??
Time will tell.

Price was ~$598 IIRC - that's $200 less than the launch price of last years model.

hi diesel,  just picked up a xw385  from Domayne in Fyshwick (ACT) for $505,  Harvey Norman quoted $548 and would do it for $510, JBHiFi Belconnen quoted $535 over the phone.

[diesel]

Did you ask about whether there was a XW485?

[Beets]

 diesel, on May 5 2011, 09:01 PM, said:

Did you ask about whether there was a XW485?

Yep, guy said the 485 would have a 500 GB drive, same spec as 385 but hasn't been informed of the availablity yet. Apparently the company in Japan that makes the lens for the DVD mechanism was hit in the recent disaster, so things are going to be a little hard to get for a while...

[diesel]

It's certainly an opportunity for Samsung and LG to get some sales whilst the Japanese manufacturers try to source alternatives or rebuild supplies.

[Baird]

 Beets, on May 5 2011, 06:51 PM, said:

hi diesel,  just picked up a xw385  from Domayne in Fyshwick (ACT) for $505,  Harvey Norman quoted $548 and would do it for $510, JBHiFi Belconnen quoted $535 over the phone.

Went with a friend today who wanted to buy a xw385 got it from Myer Southland for $495.00 but and unless I have made a huge schoolboy error it would seem that when recording from the HDMI connection you can only record in DR mode & if you want to use say LP or EP you can only do it from the AV drive.

Now I've got my own 380 so I know my way round the basic set & remote but I tried everything & could not get it to work, I then came home tried exactly the same on my 380 & of course as always I could choose which recording mode. Obviously with DR you use a lot more disc space & get a hell of a lot less recorded hours. Maybe Pana are trying to stop the conflicts when recording 2 simultaneous & both are for LP say & of course one should be DR.

Any one else got the same problem? I can't check the 385 manual online to see if (as on page 25 of 380) it warns of the "one must be DR mode" because the 385 is not on the site yet.

I will say one thing with the 385 the +60s & -10s work when using a DVD whereas with the 380 they only seem to work with the HDD

[diesel]

 Baird, on May 10 2011, 05:48 PM, said:

Went with a friend today who wanted to buy a xw385 got it from Myer Southland for $495.00 but and unless I have made a huge schoolboy error it would seem that when recording from the HDMI connection you can only record in DR mode & if you want to use say LP or EP you can only do it from the AV drive.

Can you please extrapolate a bit on the HDMI comment. The HDMI is an output, not an input right, so how can you record from it?
Also, when you say AV drive, do you mean the DVD drive?
If there is a restriction on the recording mode (I'm sure there wouldn't be), then this may have something to do with the new standards around where Bluray devices can no longer output a HD picture from an analogue output, but that doesn't really make sense in this application???

I did find this story on the sister XS385 (satellite tuners) which might support why they have limited recordings to the HDD in DR mode only (like you say to remove the gotcha! for users), but allow archiving of HD shows in compressed formats on the HDD.

Quote

The recorder also features an HD Archiving function to save Full-HD images from an SD memory card onto the built-in hard disk drive. In addition to a High Speed Copying function, a DR File Conversion function can convert TV programmes recorded in DR mode on hard disk drive into HG, HX, HE, HL, or HM mode (High Definition) DIGA compresses the recorded programmes at a lower bitrates but retain its high definition resolution, which takes up less space on the hard disk drive without compromising on picture quality as much.

 Baird, on May 10 2011, 05:48 PM, said:

I will say one thing with the 385 the +60s & -10s work when using a DVD whereas with the 380 they only seem to work with the HDD

I assume you can still do the skips on HDD files?
This would mean they are still free of Freeview restriction.

Edited by diesel, 10 May 2011 - 09:06 PM.

[Baird]

 diesel, on May 10 2011, 09:05 PM, said:

Can you please extrapolate a bit on the HDMI comment. The HDMI is an output, not an input right, so how can you record from it?
Also, when you say AV drive, do you mean the DVD drive?
If there is a restriction on the recording mode (I'm sure there wouldn't be), then this may have something to do with the new standards around where Bluray devices can no longer output a HD picture from an analogue output, but that doesn't really make sense in this application???

I did find this story on the sister XS385 (satellite tuners) which might support why they have limited recordings to the HDD in DR mode only (like you say to remove the gotcha! for users), but allow archiving of HD shows in compressed formats on the HDD.


I assume you can still do the skips on HDD files?
This would mean they are still free of Freeview restriction.

1)
What I mean is that when recording using the "TV" drive from "Drive Select" which of course is the basic default setting, one can only record in HD but if one records from the "AV" input one can use SP,LP,EP etc. I hope this clears up what I meant. I would be very grateful if someone could tell me where I've gone wrong because it restricts the available recording hours tremendously and I can't see where I've gone wrong on my mates 385 because I am very used to recording in SP.LP & EP on my own 380 (and for that matter 350)



2)  Hopefully the above answers your comment.

3) Yes the skips are there on the HDD files no problem.

[prl]

 Baird, on May 11 2011, 06:49 AM, said:

1)
... one can only record in HD ...

Doesn't Panasonic call this mode DR (Direct Recording), meaning that the broadcast is stored without recompression. HD is recorded as HD, SD is recorded as SD? Other modes re-compress the video for even lower quality

[Baird]

 prl, on May 11 2011, 09:26 AM, said:

Doesn't Panasonic call this mode DR (Direct Recording), meaning that the broadcast is stored without recompression. HD is recorded as HD, SD is recorded as SD? Other modes re-compress the video for even lower quality

Yes other modes do re-compress for even lower quality but apart from audio being at a level in say LP where you need to increase your volume control on TV there is not a great deal of difference for me & it does allow you to put so much more on a HDD.

If I understand correctly, as very few FTA transmissions are in HD but are SD then I suppose the stated hours available (about 46 from memory) would be for HD & thus one could get a lot more hours space on the HDD.

The fact remains that when one goes into the EPG & selects a programme to record, one is not allowed access to the "Mode" to change from say HD to even SP. I hope I'm wrong and if so I welcome any help.

[prl]

 Baird, on May 11 2011, 10:08 AM, said:

...
If I understand correctly, as very few FTA transmissions are in HD but are SD then I suppose the stated hours available (about 46 from memory) would be for HD & thus one could get a lot more hours space on the HDD.
...

Transmissions on the HD services (SBS HD, ABC News 24, 7mate, Gem and One HD) are always in HD (720p for ABC and SBS, 1080i for the commercials). They are not always HD source material. All but a tiny amount of SBS HD is upscaled SD. I'm not sure about how much of ABC News 24 is HD source material. I think all their studio stuff is HD, because their studios are all rigged out with HD cameras. ABC and SBS are permitted to broadcast 100% of their HD service as upscaled SD.

The commercial broadcasters are mandated to broadcast at least 1040 hours/year (20 hours/week or ~3h/day) of HD source material. All of them exceed that minimum by a substantial amount, especially the metropolitan broadcasters (Ten is the best, with nearly 3400 hours in 2009, the latest report on the ACMA page above). But even the regionals get nearly 1900 hours/year. Less than half of prime time (18:00-22:30) HD broadcasting is HD source material, 700-800 hours/year (13-15 hours/week, ~2 hours/evening) on the metropolitan broadcasts.

Edited by prl, 11 May 2011 - 11:24 AM.

[Baird]

 prl, on May 11 2011, 11:24 AM, said:

Transmissions on the HD services (SBS HD, ABC News 24, 7mate, Gem and One HD) are always in HD (720p for ABC and SBS, 1080i for the commercials). They are not always HD source material. All but a tiny amount of SBS HD is upscaled SD. I'm not sure about how much of ABC News 24 is HD source material. I think all their studio stuff is HD, because their studios are all rigged out with HD cameras. ABC and SBS are permitted to broadcast 100% of their HD service as upscaled SD.

The commercial broadcasters are mandated to broadcast at least 1040 hours/year (20 hours/week or ~3h/day) of HD source material. All of them exceed that minimum by a substantial amount, especially the metropolitan broadcasters (Ten is the best, with nearly 3400 hours in 2009, the latest report on the ACMA page above). But even the regionals get nearly 1900 hours/year. Less than half of prime time (18:00-22:30) HD broadcasting is HD source material, 700-800 hours/year (13-15 hours/week, ~2 hours/evening) on the metropolitan broadcasts.

So do think I'm right about there being more than the roughly 46 hours available if transmissions are SD or upscaled SD?

[prl]

 Baird, on May 11 2011, 12:35 PM, said:

So do think I'm right about there being more than the roughly 46 hours available if transmissions are SD or upscaled SD?

The amount of time that you record can only be calculated by looking at the transmission bitrate. I don't think that on a HD service there's much difference between the bitrate when HD source material is being broadcast and when an upscaled SD service is being broadcast. An SD broadcast will have about half the bitrate of a 1080i HD broadcast. The main factor in the bitrate is whether the service is HD or SD, not whether the original source material is HD or SD on a HD service.

I posted about approximate bitrates and what the constraints are here. HD is about 4.5GB/hr, and SD is about 2.2GB/hr. In Panasonic DR mode, that means your DMR-XW380, with a 250GB HDD will record about 50-55 hours of HD to fill the HDD or about 110 hours of SD to do the same. If you only record 720p HD (ABC News 24 and SBS HD) you'll fit in a bit more than the 50-55 hours, because the bitrate for 720p is typically lower than for the 1080i that the commercial broadcasters use.

I've also posted a list of the bit rates on the recordings on my Beyonwiz (which effectively always records in the Panasonic DR mode). You can get some idea of actual rates and the variability from that. Divide the bit rates by 2.22 to get GB/hr.

[Baird]

 prl, on May 11 2011, 12:58 PM, said:

The amount of time that you record can only be calculated by looking at the transmission bitrate. I don't think that on a HD service there's much difference between the bitrate when HD source material is being broadcast and when an upscaled SD service is being broadcast. An SD broadcast will have about half the bitrate of a 1080i HD broadcast. The main factor in the bitrate is whether the service is HD or SD, not whether the original source material is HD or SD on a HD service.

I posted about approximate bitrates and what the constraints are here. HD is about 4.5GB/hr, and SD is about 2.2GB/hr. In Panasonic DR mode, that means your DMR-XW380, with a 250GB HDD will record about 50-55 hours of HD to fill the HDD or about 110 hours of SD to do the same. If you only record 720p HD (ABC News 24 and SBS HD) you'll fit in a bit more than the 50-55 hours, because the bitrate for 720p is typically lower than for the 1080i that the commercial broadcasters use.

I've also posted a list of the bit rates on the recordings on my Beyonwiz (which effectively always records in the Panasonic DR mode). You can get some idea of actual rates and the variability from that. Divide the bit rates by 2.22 to get GB/hr.

Thanks for that by the way my 380 is fine & could do hunderds of hours if need be, it is my mates 320gb 385 which is where the query is.

[prl]

 Baird, on May 11 2011, 01:20 PM, said:

Thanks for that by the way my 380 is fine & could do hunderds of hours if need be, it is my mates 320gb 385 which is where the query is.

Then clearly it can store 28% more of whatever you want than the XW380, and I thought your question was about what it could store in DR mode. Which is not "hundreds of hours" in either case.

[Baird]

 prl, on May 11 2011, 01:50 PM, said:

Then clearly it can store 28% more of whatever you want than the XW380, and I thought your question was about what it could store in DR mode. Which is not "hundreds of hours" in either case.

If one uses EP (on the 380) it is running into the hundreds of hours. There is no problem with the 380, it is my mates 385 which is stating (from my memory) about 47 hours and what I was trying to find out is

1) Can anyone confirm my finding that if you are not recording via the AV drive (on the 385) then you cannot change the recording mode from anything other than DR.

2) Does the 47hours really represent more than that given the the way some stations transmit (and i think you have gone someway to answering this one prl) but I'd still like to know about 1)

[prl]

 Baird, on May 11 2011, 02:02 PM, said:

If one uses EP (on the 380) it is running into the hundreds of hours. There is no problem with the 380, it is my mates 385 which is stating (from my memory) about 47 hours and what I was trying to find out is

1) Can anyone confirm my finding that if you are not recording via the AV drive (on the 385) then you cannot change the recording mode from anything other than DR.

2) Does the 47hours really represent more than that given the the way some stations transmit (and i think you have gone someway to answering this one prl) but I'd still like to know about 1)

47 hours recording on a 320GB HDD is 6.8GB/hr. That represents 15.1 Mb/s. 15 Mb/s is substantially more than the bitrate of any single digital broadcast service, SD or HD, transmitted at in Australia. The whole content of a single broadcast channel (all of the services from a single broadcaster) is only 23.035 Mb/s with the current modulation parameters.

In DR mode, no matter what you record, SD or HD, you are virtually guaranteed that you will be able to record more than 47 hours on a 320GB HDD the way that digital broadcasting is currently set up in Australia (23.035Mb/s per broadcast channel, one HD and at least two SD services per channel).

In more compressed modes, you will be able to record more time, quite likely substantially more time, but with some amount of quality degradation. However, if the recoding is in MPEG4 H.264, the degradation should be very small for the lower levels of extra compression, because H.264 is a more efficient encoding scheme than the broadcast MPEG2.

Edited by prl, 11 May 2011 - 02:33 PM.

[Baird]

 prl, on May 11 2011, 02:32 PM, said:

47 hours recording on a 320GB HDD is 6.8GB/hr. That represents 15.1 Mb/s. 15 Mb/s is substantially more than the bitrate of any single digital broadcast service, SD or HD, transmitted at in Australia. The whole content of a single broadcast channel (all of the services from a single broadcaster) is only 23.035 Mb/s with the current modulation parameters.

In DR mode, no matter what you record, SD or HD, you are virtually guaranteed that you will be able to record more than 47 hours on a 320GB HDD the way that digital broadcasting is currently set up in Australia (23.035Mb/s per broadcast channel, one HD and at least two SD services per channel).

In more compressed modes, you will be able to record more time, quite likely substantially more time, but with some amount of quality degradation. However, if the recoding is in MPEG4 H.264, the degradation should be very small for the lower levels of extra compression, because H.264 is a more efficient encoding scheme than the broadcast MPEG2.

Thank you prl I think it's quite clear that my mate will get more than his 47hrs.

Now for the 385 " Can anyone confirm my finding that if you are not recording via the AV drive (on the 385) then you cannot change the recording mode from DR to anything else?".

[diesel]

Baird, I think like you mentioned earlier, Panasonic have probably made the DR change to FTA recordings so users are not caught with the previous 300/350/380's "limitation". In the end, it makes it easier for users to set recordings and they have allowed them the option to compress the DR HDD recordings on the HDD to save space if the user requires it.

EDIT: Here is the product announcement from the Panasonic Blog

Edited by diesel, 11 May 2011 - 10:56 PM.

[Baird]

 diesel, on May 11 2011, 10:52 PM, said:

Baird, I think like you mentioned earlier, Panasonic have probably made the DR change to FTA recordings so users are not caught with the previous 300/350/380's "limitation". In the end, it makes it easier for users to set recordings and they have allowed them the option to compress the DR HDD recordings on the HDD to save space if the user requires it.

EDIT: Here is the product announcement from the Panasonic Blog

Thanks very much for that Diesel.

Forgive my ignorance but how does one compress the DR HDD recordings?

I would look at the manual online, if it was on their site but it isn't and I'm afraid my mate who owns the 385 is not very tech savvy at all.

[Tedwood]

Quote

Can anyone confirm my finding that if you are not recording via the AV drive (on the 385) then you cannot change the recording mode from anything other than DR.

Hi there, Baird,

This is how my 380 behaves too. If I press the "RecMode" button I get the following message: "Recording mode can be changed only when AV input or DV input is selected". How do you set your 380? Perhaps this is another crippling ploy in the NZ version?

[Baird]

 Tedwood, on May 12 2011, 07:40 AM, said:

Hi there, Baird,

This is how my 380 behaves too. If I press the "RecMode" button I get the following message: "Recording mode can be changed only when AV input or DV input is selected". How do you set your 380? Perhaps this is another crippling ploy in the NZ version?

Hi Tedwood

I am shocked that your 380 behaves like this, on my 380 whenever you choose a future programme from the EPG it allows you to alter everything, time start, time finish etc but also recording mode with about 8 choices from memory & I often record in LP though about 40% is in DR. It's not right that NZ is treated like a 2nd class world citizen. Maybe more Kiwis should buy on the net but of course that has it's own problems, it's not so easy to take it back anytime within a 7 day period & get your money back no questions asked.

[Tedwood]

 Baird, on May 12 2011, 10:42 AM, said:

Hi Tedwood

I am shocked that your 380 behaves like this, on my 380 whenever you choose a future programme from the EPG it allows you to alter everything, time start, time finish etc but also recording mode with about 8 choices from memory & I often record in LP though about 40% is in DR.

Hi, Baird,

Thanks for that comparison. It looks as though my 380 will only allow a change in recording mode if I'm dubbing stuff off my VCR or a camcorder. However, the manual does say the HDD shouldn't be treated as a storage device for long-term, so I guess that forces one to copy to disc and then delete anything really important.
My 380 is also lacking most of the Skip functions the Aussie version enjoys, so I've had to sharpen my ad-zapping skills to compensate.

[Tedwood]

[quote name='Tedwood' date='May 12 2011, 11:08 AM' post='1702392']

Diesel mentioned earlier that Panasonic have allowed users the option to compress the DR HDD recordings on the HDD to save space if they require it. Does this apply to the 380 also, and if so how is it done?

[Baird]

 Tedwood, on May 13 2011, 10:34 AM, said:

Diesel mentioned earlier that Panasonic have allowed users the option to compress the DR HDD recordings on the HDD to save space if they require it. Does this apply to the 380 also, and if so how is it done?

Yes I'd like to know how to do this as well.