109 replies to this topic

[mtv]

Malich, on Mar 23 2011, 09:31 PM, said:

Response to ACMA Document PF2005/1233

Section 2 (page 4) may be interesting to some.

Malich.

An excerpt from that document.

2 ABOUT THE AUTHOR

Mr Alan Hughes (B. Arts (Training & Development), Television Operators Cert of Proficiency, Dip. Electronics and Communications, MBKSTS) worked in the ABC for 25 years training internal staff in radio and television. The areas covered included studio maintenance, operations and end to end quality assessment of signals.

He also has continuing interest in both radio and television since departing from the ABC 12 years ago.

Given the date of that document is March 31 2006, less 12 years prior to that date that according to the document, when Alan H had left the ABC, places his departure from the ABC at least as far back as March 1994.... a very long time before the introduction of DVB-T in Australia, confirming his experience within his 25 years in the industry was analogue-only.

[DrP]

beeblebrox, on Mar 23 2011, 08:39 PM, said:

... which is clearly how he gets the hollier than thou attitude about everything from!!!!

That's the part that particularly ticks me off.  There are professionals on this forum that clearly have knowledge far beyond that of alanh yet he clearly holds them and their opinions in complete distain as if he is the only person on this forum that has any knowledge at all in any technical matters.  The 'facts' that alanh spouts on this forum are often contrary to reality and in some cases outright bizarre.

[domi]

DrP, on Mar 20 2011, 01:17 PM, said:

The bulk data encryption system is the same as found all around the world, DVB CSA.  The CA system employed is a bog standard Irdeto system and the particular variant was in use elsewhere before Australia decided to pick it for the VAST services.

The encryption is not 'new'.

The question is why someone requires an obscene amount for the testing of the decoders before they are permitted to be used when the encryption is standard. The figure I saw was $100,000 for testing plus an annual fee. Can't remember who put this hurdle in. This seems to be the reason why Hills is the only one so far to sell the UEC boxes and it is good news on these pages that two more may supply VAST decoders.
The market does not seem to be large enough to get some chinese sweat shop to make them and still make a profit after paying the testing charges.

[andrew]

The truth about Vast set top boxes is not conspiracy, just pragmatism. Optus has terrible problems with the many types of cheap boxes that sort of work with Aurora. Even changing channels parameters causes some boxes to stop working. The effect on average consumers is very upsetting and Optus has taken complaints calls for years. They still run an old Irdeto 1 system on certain transponders to keep compatible! There are few changes that they can make to anything.

The new deal with Optus is only to use authorised boxes. To ensure cards aren't moved to other boxes, they are paired with the chipset in the box when first activated and won't work with anything else. Now with so many commercial channels available on Vast, they also have to guarantee to the commercial networks that customer will only get the appropriate ads for their state. To ensure that, this is an upgraded version of Irdeto to circumvent the fake Gamma cards around these last years.

UEC has an exclusive for the first year; they argue that they are doing lots of development. Apart from the CA, the new MHEG EPG is supposed to be included and UEC argued that there is a huge development cost to be recovered. There is also extensive management of the channel lists; each region only gets to see the channels for their area and doesn't have to skip over the dozens not accessible to them. The exclusivity was the payoff for all this work. Indeed there has been a huge development and testing phase on the decoders and it has taken months longer than first thought. The good news is that all boxes will be updated over the air as improvements are made.

The other manufacturers will come eventually and all will probably release the PVR versions that we all would like. So, in summary, Optus is taking a long time trying to make the experience of Vast perfect for the non technical user. Frustrating isn't it!

[gwnz]

I have been watching and reading the comments on this for some time from New Zealand and with perhaps some amusement at the lack of knowledge about the NZ Freeview system. Firstly Freeview Satellite is a mirror of the main terrestrial channels and currently has around 18 channels running on the Satellite service. Some are regional content but available to all via Satellite only (Only a couple of regional content providers have not opted to place their content on the Satellite). Mainstream channels offer regional down to city level separation via different signals and controlled by MHEG5 on the set top boxes. No you don't have to buy or use the approved Freeview box either for Satellite or Terrestrial but if you are not techno savvy then this is a good option because it makes it simple as plug it in and everything else is taken care of. If you are like me someone who likes to know what else is out there then buying a box that is not approved and capable of tuning in other satellite feeds is perfect. Why we can't get all of the current Australian channels beat the heck out of me other than the fact that most are Narrow beamed to Australia and not able to be received in NZ unless you want to put up a 3 to 5 meter dish. Why Australian broadcasters can't see that there would be potential benefit in also transmitting via satellite to NZ (they might have to negotiate some slightly different arrangements for sports or talk nicely to the Government and they would probably regulate to allow it since we only have one Pay provider and no mandatory free to air content provisions) is a puzzle.
New Zealand Freeview is fully funded by the broadcasters and there is no government subsidy to get this stuff up on the satellite so hence no bureaucratic rubbish dictating a need to have some form of encryption. The signal is narrow banded like Australia but does not need to be, on the basis of content licensing.
VAST is a rip off in my mind. I pull in content from D1, D2 C1/D3 (Yes I get Aurora for SBS only thanks to having family in Oz) and Intelsat 5 (BBC/Australia Network(read ABC)) With a tweak of my current set up I can currently pull in Channel 9 in HD and the SBS HD off the D1 satellite feeds for Tasmania. VAST will block the content I get from C1 D3 when the Aurora Service is switched off and I presume that the current free to air Channel 9 and SBS HD to Tasmania will also disappear into that service as well. A shame that both the Broadcasters and the bureaucrats can't see past their noses to provide both a cheap option to existing country people in Australia and to help showcase and provide more advertising opportunities for broadcasters by opening up to them another market of 4 plus million views.
Note there is no intention to provide terrestrial service to all of New Zealand when the switch of happens and currently only 80% of the population can get that signal meaning that if switched off today some 600,000 views will have to be on satellite. Most households have satellite dishes installed and so buying a satellite freeview box for example is pretty easy with them now going out at between $79 to $89 for the cheapest (no encryption)
The only differences between Freeview Australia and Freeview New Zealand is that the Satellite has always been part of the delivery plan for New Zealand for the Broadcasters and the satellite is only MPEG2 and not MPEG4 as will be the case for Australia. Personally I will now wait and see what the footprint is for VAST when it is fully operational and then whether I can get a CAM that will work on my HD Decoder. Getting a card to make it work might be the hardest part but as with anything like this if there is a market there is someone who is willing to supply.
I hope your campaign to get rid of the VAST encryption monopoly for the benefit of existing set top box owners in rural Australia works. More importantly I would hope that somewhere along the way the broadcasters wake up and smell what is be shoveled and see that they are making hard for people who are actually part of the market their advertisers are paying for to see that content and themselves lobby the Australian Government for sensible changes to this. Lastly they might also see that dropping encryption opens up new opportunity and if I were them I would be looking hard and using the system to deliver a wider foot print to access more people for their advertisers across the Australasia of Papua down to New Zealand. Perhaps it is the Advertisers themselves that should be pointing out that they are getting ripped off as well by cutting off easy access to their audience!

[mtv]

gwnz, on Aug 3 2011, 11:27 AM, said:

Personally I will now wait and see what the footprint is for VAST when it is fully operational.......

VAST is fully operational now, so the footprint will not change from what it currently is.

[andrewlace]

Thanks MTV for the update

mtv, on Aug 3 2011, 01:27 PM, said:

VAST is fully operational now, so the footprint will not change from what it currently is.

[KAKTUS]

I've noticed that at some of the most inopportune moments the UEC box has started a download.

As the box has a number of inputs/outputs on the rear I'm curious as to if over time UEC intend to download the necessary software to activate these and perhaps bring the box up to a standard with a bit more versatility?

Or maybe I've just got a dickey box?

[mtv]

KAKTUS, on Aug 6 2011, 03:17 PM, said:

I've noticed that at some of the most inopportune moments the UEC box has started a download.

As the box has a number of inputs/outputs on the rear I'm curious as to if over time UEC intend to download the necessary software to activate these and perhaps bring the box up to a standard with a bit more versatility?

Or maybe I've just got a dickey box?

The USB connection can be used now for manual firmware upgrades and the USB PVR recording feature is currently being trialed, together with a PVR remote, so it will operate with an external hard drive. Hopefully, UEC testing of this function will be complete soon and they'll release it for sale.

[Smacca]

mtv, on Aug 6 2011, 02:19 PM, said:

The USB connection can be used now for manual firmware upgrades and the USB PVR recording feature is currently being trialed, together with a PVR remote, so it will operate with an external hard drive. Hopefully, UEC testing of this function will be complete soon and they'll release it for sale.

Still ironing out some bugs with the PVR function, but I can tell you it works pretty well. Recording quality is great and the remote is a hundred times better than the current one. There's just some issues at the moment with the broadcaster-provided EPG and other buggy bits like fast forwarding and playback.

[KAKTUS]

Smacca, on Aug 7 2011, 05:54 PM, said:

Still ironing out some bugs with the PVR function, but I can tell you it works pretty well. Recording quality is great and the remote is a hundred times better than the current one. There's just some issues at the moment with the broadcaster-provided EPG and other buggy bits like fast forwarding and playback.

Thanks for that information mtv and smacca, I missed the earlier post.

EUC seem to be taking steps in the right direction but I still think the box when released was a bit primitive.

[mtv]

KAKTUS, on Aug 8 2011, 12:28 PM, said:

EUC seem to be taking steps in the right direction but I still think the box when released was a bit primitive.

I think it still is... and rediculously overpriced!

I guess UEC have to make a huge profit on the sale of the boxes to cover the exhorbitant fees they are charged by Optus, etc for certification.

[andrewlace]

The commercial CAMs are now available.   Is this a sign that alternative STBs are on the way.  Let's hope so.

mtv, on Aug 8 2011, 01:23 PM, said:

I think it still is... and rediculously overpriced!

I guess UEC have to make a huge profit on the sale of the boxes to cover the exhorbitant fees they are charged by Optus, etc for certification.

[DrP]

CAMs that handle the irdeto variant aren't new but I'd be stunned to hear that someone managed to get a VAST card activated against one.

[Smacca]

KAKTUS, on Aug 8 2011, 10:28 AM, said:

EUC seem to be taking steps in the right direction but I still think the box when released was a bit primitive.

VAST certification issues aside, the fact it didn't have proper PVR functionality to begin with (with or without an internal hard drive) is pretty bad. If you ask me, it was definitely a rush job. But I still can't believe after a whole year of VAST, there's still no more boxes available.

DrP, on Aug 8 2011, 02:42 PM, said:

CAMs that handle the irdeto variant aren't new but I'd be stunned to hear that someone managed to get a VAST card activated against one.

Me too. There's no way they would authorise a CAM for a residential address.I guess you just need to know the right people, but they'd surely have each and every CAM out there on record and can be made accountable. Having said that, I see they're willing to dish out hundreds of cards at a time just for testing for potential manufacturers.

Edited by Smacca, 08 August 2011 - 08:34 PM.

[andrewlace]

It's literally hot off the press (well off the internet - not that computers should run hot).

DrP, on Aug 8 2011, 04:42 PM, said:

CAMs that handle the irdeto variant aren't new but I'd be stunned to hear that someone managed to get a VAST card activated against one.

[M'bozo]

andrewlace, on Aug 8 2011, 04:35 PM, said:

The commercial CAMs are now available.

You're quick. That was in my email inbox 9 minutes prior to your post.


On another point, and as I see it, the Optus Vast specification (Version 6.1 15 July 2011) only refers to set top boxes  

Edited by M'bozo, 08 August 2011 - 09:16 PM.

[Smacca]

andrewlace, on Aug 8 2011, 06:46 PM, said:

It's literally hot off the press (well off the internet - not that computers should run hot).

Commercial VAST CAMs have been around since the first VAST-to-terrestrial site was fired up in Alice Springs. They're also used in Bunbury, WA. It doesn't mean they'll be doing them for the public. This would go against the networks' intention of controlling the set-top box and limiting certain features. As much as we'd love one, there's no chance we'll have access to one.

[KAKTUS]

Smacca, on Aug 8 2011, 09:32 PM, said:

Commercial VAST CAMs have been around since the first VAST-to-terrestrial site was fired up in Alice Springs. They're also used in Bunbury, WA. It doesn't mean they'll be doing them for the public. This would go against the networks' intention of controlling the set-top box and limiting certain features. As much as we'd love one, there's no chance we'll have access to one.

What organisation handles the distribution of these cards, ASIO, CIA?
I thought it was intended to try to supply a service to rural viewers that's comparable to city services.
Space on the satellites has been negotiated and paid for by the government, read taxpayer, Why all the bureaucratic meddling in what should be a straight forward business transaction?

Small aside to Smacca or mtv, What changes have been made to the software that would make it worth my while to download and install it in my decoder as I get nervous when I start fiddling in areas where I can do damage?

Don't want to go back to Humax/Aurora setup.

[andrewlace]

Be warned the UEC uses an embedded CAM, getting a CAM does not guarantee it will work with any hardware. VAST CAM and TDT (transmodulator)  The boxes for Aurora merely needed embedded Irdeto, what most people are waiting on is a greater choice of VAST embedded recievers which will eventuate.

KAKTUS, on Aug 9 2011, 04:20 AM, said:

What organisation handles the distribution of these cards, ASIO, CIA?
I thought it was intended to try to supply a service to rural viewers that's comparable to city services.
Space on the satellites has been negotiated and paid for by the government, read taxpayer, Why all the bureaucratic meddling in what should be a straight forward business transaction?

Small aside to Smacca or mtv, What changes have been made to the software that would make it worth my while to download and install it in my decoder as I get nervous when I start fiddling in areas where I can do damage?

Don't want to go back to Humax/Aurora setup.

[Smacca]

KAKTUS, on Aug 9 2011, 02:20 AM, said:

Small aside to Smacca or mtv, What changes have been made to the software that would make it worth my while to download and install it in my decoder as I get nervous when I start fiddling in areas where I can do damage?

Once the PVR software is completed, it will be automatically downloaded to every UEC VAST box in the country. You shouldn't need to lift a finger to keep using the box like you do now.

[KAKTUS]

mtv said:

The USB connection can be used now for manual firmware upgrades and the USB PVR recording feature is currently being trialed, together with a PVR remote, so it will operate with an external hard drive. Hopefully, UEC testing of this function will be complete soon and they'll release it for sale.

From this post I thought that I would have to go to a site and download/install software upgrades.

Quote

Still ironing out some bugs with the PVR function, but I can tell you it works pretty well. Recording quality is great and the remote is a hundred times better than the current one. There's just some issues at the moment with the broadcaster-provided EPG and other buggy bits like fast forwarding and playback.

Quote

Once the PVR software is completed, it will be automatically downloaded to every UEC VAST box in the country. You shouldn't need to lift a finger to keep using the box like you do now.

Not lifting fingers is what I do best, Good to hear that this is the case.

[Smacca]

KAKTUS, on Aug 9 2011, 09:53 PM, said:

From this post I thought that I would have to go to a site and download/install software upgrades.

You may, if the OTA (over-the-air) download fails. There's been some cases where boxes have been resetting on a loop, instead of installing the new software after download. Those unfortunate people had to do it manually with a USB stick. However, these cases are rare and one would hope UEC have correctly identified this issue and don't make the same mistake twice!

Edited by Smacca, 10 August 2011 - 12:03 AM.

[KAKTUS]

Smacca, on Aug 10 2011, 12:01 AM, said:

You may, if the OTA (over-the-air) download fails. There's been some cases where boxes have been resetting on a loop, instead of installing the new software after download. Those unfortunate people had to do it manually with a USB stick. However, these cases are rare and one would hope UEC have correctly identified this issue and don't make the same mistake twice!

Hi again Smacca, Is there somewhere within the decoder where I can find the present software that the decoder is running, This will show if the download has succeeded and the software is the current implementation.

Edited by KAKTUS, 25 August 2011 - 03:26 PM.

[Smacca]

Yep, just go to Menu -> Advanced -> Installation -> DSD Status, and the bit that says DSD: SW is the version you're using.  It should read 2.22.2103 like in this screenshot.

Edited by Smacca, 25 August 2011 - 03:45 PM.