1202 replies to this topic

[mello yello]

Drizt, on Feb 13 2011, 07:52 AM, said:

Before this thread deteriorates much further,

nothings deteriorating, people have questions  

I can appreciate trebs and kajacks and POVs efforts as a "warm up' towards a proper "official DTV test" and early preliminary results show under certain conditions power cords can be detected as having a different sound but whether any broad conclusions can be drawn thats up to speculation

like Ive always said "what conclusions you draw will always vary"

...and thats about the only constant so far

[Drizt]

mello yello II, on Feb 13 2011, 09:01 AM, said:

nothings deteriorating, people have questions  

I was just making a prediction   Perhaps I will be wrong and this thread will continue in an orderly and controlled manner

[mello yello]

Drizt, on Feb 13 2011, 08:06 AM, said:

I was just making a prediction   Perhaps I will be wrong and this thread will continue in an orderly and controlled manner

youre always wrong Nostrildamus  

[LucasA]

What a load of POPPYCOCK.

[myrantz]

kajak12, on Feb 12 2011, 11:05 PM, said:

the only reason i done this with treblid is so he learns his education in 2 channel audio has just begun next time i will change caps in my clock power supply then his jaw will drop what happens to analogue sound with some changes in the digital domain [/b]

That will be something I am very interested in.. Heard people talk about changing caps, recapping, etc. and how it changes the sound blah blah..

or how swapping power with linear regulated power.. Things like that I'd be interested to see how they improved.

Doing it myself will be the harder part but hopefully I can find somebody to do this for me...

[:)]

DarrenW, on Feb 13 2011, 04:35 AM, said:

Now.......All we need is for DrP to stick his 2 cents in as well

yep I dont know why, but saw it coming, why I posted this early up, and I aint no nostradamus  

:), on Feb 12 2011, 10:33 PM, said:

good on you for being guinea pig, regardless of result sounds like you had an interesting time. which is probably the main thing

look am sure some one or other will call fowl. cant please everyone. as long as did it for yourself and got what you wanted out of it. probably all that matters. dont worry too much what those others...

regardless of what tests people do. there'll be those that say, oh you didnt do it "properly". its like the mythbusters vodka challenge the detracters could say oh you didnt record the results, it wasnt an abx, it wasnt even a dbt. there was no statistical significance in the result. but gee at the end of it seeing the test they did, whether it was broadcast on tv, or just did in isolation of a back room someplace. the participants were pretty convinved. and a very convincing result it was for them. thats all that matters. at the end of it people should do whatever test they want that gets them what they want out of it. you'll never please everyone,

for the people calling fowl. I only have one thing to say ....get off your fat backsides and go find out yourself you lazy sods !  

[myrantz]

Chicken Man, on Feb 13 2011, 12:17 AM, said:

Honestly, this whole thread has gone bananas, and Treb I think you mean well but your posts are simply erratic and convey non-sensical responses to questions asked.

Are you amazed it took this long? Well, did say I'd made the post in a hurry...

That's what happens in the forums anyway. Say something that's goes against the current, and people will begin to pick every word apart and find fault with it. This is a very common social behaviour and I have links to this in the other thread explaining why. it is hard to separate the crazies and not so crazies because they both are going against the current.

Believe me, don't believe me.. Doesn't really matter.

If you can, try it out yourself, now you know what to hear and look for... And see if you get the same benefits..

Chicken Man, on Feb 13 2011, 12:17 AM, said:

While Kajak just dismisses anyone's suggestion that he should provide some tangible evidence that gives credence to his claim of such differences 'being as night and day'. Yet, such differences only appear to be heard on his high-end system.

It is easier to spot on his high end system. I'm only comparing his system to mine (mid range). So if you think you have a high end system, go for it...

One thing to note this is a 2 channel system. and his speakers are placed about 1-1.5m from the backwall, and ~1m away from the side walls... There are no room treatments save for a rag around the TV. No absorption panels on the side means the listener will get the "wide" and high.... Maybe he can try to use diffusers (that may improve clarity), but don't think it's needed as it's clear enough for me... The speakers don't seem to need it... In a way all the things I have learnt about HT and surround sound don't apply to 2 channel. My 2 channel system at times sound like a surround system, kind of makes me think HT is a gimmick

If you have the space for the speakers to breathe, hopefully you'd be able to hear it.

The critical thing here isn't really the power cables per se, it's the materials played... As I've said in the first post, I have tried 3 of my CDs and they sound like ####... On his system straight away you know everything is processed (Kajak said it's compressed). There is no life, no dimension, no width, no depth, no height (Kajak should be better to explain this as I can't)...

You can probably refer to here for some.

Chicken Man, on Feb 13 2011, 12:17 AM, said:

If a 'specialized' power cable has such an effect then one must conclude there is something wrong with the stability of the system itself, like internal H.F oscillations generated within the amplifiers themselves through improper grounding.

If you think you have an answer, feel free to find out exactly why.... I don't really know..

Chicken Man, on Feb 13 2011, 12:17 AM, said:

I'm a tech and have been a HiFi enthusiast for a very long time and have put such claims to the test for myself in years past, and having made a couple of 'specialized' power cords it did not convince me in the slightest that such attachments made any discernible difference to the audio quality from the speakers.

Maybe the difference is there, but like me, you don't know how to look for it? Anyway, try this and see for yourself, do your own GTG if you have to. Try to listen to it yourself, and then when you're done, ask everybody around and see what cues they have..

Chicken Man, on Feb 13 2011, 12:17 AM, said:

And...that goes for exotic interconnects too.....it's all marketing B/S and it is for that reason that such superlative claims are made for such products.

Talking about mine? They're purchased from a street stall in HK, nothing comes as exotic as that... $10 each... Really really bang for buck... Wish I could change the RCAs but that may be done at a later stage I guess..

Marketing has a lot of BS... Take the ECM link.. But not everything is BS, you be your own judge.. accept reject things on face value, or try it out..

[myrantz]

mello yello II, on Feb 13 2011, 05:45 AM, said:

so only "modded" gear was used in the tests ?

is it possible your "mods" may have introduced flaws in your equipment that only a properly "modded" power cord can neutralise

are you also saying the same results will be obtained on stock standard equipment or do you need special screws* to hold your modded equipment together

_{*use of screws as a metaphor for power cables}

and if so , shouldnt you be going back to the drawing board so you can obtain the same killerdac results with an ordinary kettle cord?  

Love this... Satire?

I do think there are stock standard equipment that performs to that level, maybe even with stock cables.  But Kajak's system is heaps heaps cheaper... It's this combination of performance and price that makes it very attractive. All things considered at about the same price as my mid range system...

During the power cable BT yesterday, he has demonstrated "bang for buck" in more ways than one..

At the end of the day it's all about money, and room, and speakers, and material, and transports, and on and on and on...

[POV]

It's as I expected.  We disussed this yesterday and said that no matter what was posted there would be arguements ensue.  Also accurately picked where they would come from  

Personally I don't really care what is said, the difference was very obvious.  Now whilst I wasn't formally participating, I couldn't see which cable was being used, I remained at the back of the room and can tell you that it was very, very obvious to me when a switch had been made. SO obvious in fact that I don't believe that a blind test is even really warranted on Kajaks system.  Perhaps a blind test on my system would be more practicable where the differences from power cables is more subtle........

Now of course this has begun to descend into "what is wrong with the system that causes this change" (although I note this is from two of the most painful KIAs on the forum).

Believe what you want, do what you want, use whatever cable you want.....it matters not to me.

[MLXXX]

treblid, on Feb 12 2011, 08:46 PM, said:

The blind test is quite informal - I just sit there on the sofa and listen to the music (which is quite new to me), while Kajak swap cables... We only did this 5 times.

I can honestly say I did not try to look what he was doing. He also cursed when he swapped cables, I guess as a distraction for me?

The power is swapped at the KDac.

The track was #8.

Anyway, listened once, listened twice... No difference... Forgot to check but I'm thinking they're the same cable...

The third time, it became very apparent something was different... The thing that strikes me most is that I can't hear the person breathing anymore... It is very easy to pick, despite I am totally unfamiliar with the music...Repeated the test 2 more times and the differences are easy to pick... Forgot what cables was used for the 4th and 5th time, but I walked up to confirm I was right.

Now comes the noob part... I actually kind of prefer the normal power cable , because I couldn't hear the breathing, it became easier for me not to get distracted. But I know it's a normal cable. more on this later..

After 5 tests... I find that it is easy enough for me to pick (i.e. I don't even have to guess) so I did not go further to 10. I expect people to cry foul over this.

Viewing Treblid's report of the blind results in the most favourable way, it appears what may have happened was as follows:

1. Stimulus, sound #1, sound #2; response "same" - Treblid assumes this was the correct evaluation ["forgot to check but I'm thinking they're the same cable"]

2. Stimulus sound #3 [compared with earlier sounds]; response "different" - appears to have been correct

3. Stimulus sound #4 [compared with earlier sounds]; response not recorded but appears to have been correct

4. Stimulus sound #5 [compared with earlier sounds]; response not recorded but appears to have been correct

Please note that based on Treblid's report there were in fact only four blind trials, not five.  If you are asked whether two things sound the same, that counts as only one trial, not two. (See trial 1 above.)

I note that the probablility of four consecutive correct "yes/no" answers by pure guessing would be one in 16, or 6.25%.

Just for the record, the intention to carry out a blind test on power cords was referred to in a very lengthy thread in the multichannel part of the forum: Advice On Power Cords.

[MLXXX]

POV, on Feb 13 2011, 09:21 AM, said:

Personally I don't really care what is said, the difference was very obvious.  Now whilst I wasn't formally participating, I couldn't see which cable was being used, I remained at the back of the room and can tell you that it was very, very obvious to me when a switch had been made. SO obvious in fact that I don't believe that a blind test is even really warranted on Kajaks system.

POV, if it was really that obvious I have to query what was wrong with the killer DAC that its performance varied so markedly depending on what power cord it was connected to. It's unusual bevaviour, wouldn't you agree?

[myrantz]

:), on Feb 13 2011, 06:59 AM, said:

yep I dont know why, but saw it coming, why I posted this early up, and I aint no nostradamus  

hee hee.. People are passionate I guess.. Not really a bad thing really.. About the only place in the world where this can be discussed (good thing and a bad thing).

:), on Feb 13 2011, 06:59 AM, said:

regardless of what tests people do. there'll be those that say, oh you didnt do it "properly". its like the mythbusters vodka challenge the detracters could say oh you didnt record the results, it wasnt an abx, it wasnt even a dbt.

To be fair the test is a bit too informal. But at least he knows what material to use to show it.. I suspect a lot of BTs done are with sub quality material. If I repeat the tests with the CDs I brought yesterday, I will really be guessing. The test kajak set, it's pretty easy for me, and I'm thinking it'd be a lot easier for others.

:), on Feb 13 2011, 06:59 AM, said:

there was no statistical significance in the result. but gee at the end of it seeing the test they did, whether it was broadcast on tv, or just did in isolation of a back room someplace. the participants were pretty convinved. and a very convincing result it was for them. thats all that matters. at the end of it people should do whatever test they want that gets them what they want out of it. you'll never please everyone,

+1...

:), on Feb 13 2011, 06:59 AM, said:

for the people calling fowl. I only have one thing to say ....get off your fat backsides and go find out yourself you lazy sods !  

More GTGs.. Go for it boys... It's really fun...

[myrantz]

MLXXX, on Feb 13 2011, 07:25 AM, said:

POV, if it was really that obvious I have to query what was wrong with the killer DAC that its performance varied so markedly depending on what power cord it was connected to. It's unusual bevaviour, wouldn't you agree?

I think I can see Kajak's head steam from here... Hope he covers the baby's ears before he speaks...

Edit:
Added a poll.. Am interested to see if people believed what I said... Note that it's just whether you think I'm telling the truth (from my perspective). Whether you agree or disagree is another matter... (that'd be the secodn question).

Edited by treblid, 13 February 2011 - 09:34 AM.

[MLXXX]

treblid, on Feb 13 2011, 09:30 AM, said:

Edit:
Added a poll..

Treblid, suggest you reword question 1 for clarity. It currently reads: "Do you believe what I've said (Only for post #1), i.e. do you think i'm lying?".

[POV]

MLXXX, on Feb 13 2011, 01:40 AM, said:

The main marketing push for specialised power cords is for power amps. Power amps use heavy duty power supplies with good regulation of the voltage.  The claim that changing the power cord would make a difference is surprising, as others have noted. I had assumed it was this surprising claim that was to be tested in a formal double blind test.

But it seems something else was tested, instead. A custom built digital to audio converter (a "killer" DAC).

MLXXX at his finest.  This is a perfect example of why attempting an exchange with you on a forum is an excercise in futility.  You don't have any interest in 'conversing' you are only interstested in talking.  I suggested (multiple times) in the other thread that people were focussed on power amps when IME they exhibit the least improvement from power cables.  But I suppose since my understanding of the theory "lacks proportion and perspective" as you put it.....I suppose my message got lost in the agendas (woops I mean arguements)  

[ajm]

POV, on Feb 13 2011, 10:21 AM, said:

It's as I expected.  We disussed this yesterday and said that no matter what was posted there would be arguements ensue.  Also accurately picked where they would come from  

Hardly surprising though is it.  I mean, it was a pretty half-arsed effort.  In hindsight it probably would have been better to keep the "results" to yourselves.

No question treblid believes the outcome but for people hoping for something remotely robust this was a total fizzer.

[POV]

ajm, on Feb 13 2011, 10:16 AM, said:

Hardly surprising though is it.  I mean, it was a pretty half-arsed effort.  In hindsight it probably would have been better to keep the "results" to yourselves.

No question treblid believes the outcome but for people hoping for something remotely robust this was a total fizzer.

Yeah I suppose you could see it like that if you wished.....but you really had to be there to experience how obvious it was.  As I posted in the other thread:

POV, on Feb 12 2011, 10:28 PM, said:

TBH you don't really need to bother with doing it blind on kajaks system the differences are so imediately obvious, which is the main reason we didn't bother to keep going....it was a bit pointless.  I'd say that anyone with even moderate listening experience would be able to pick the difference blind with 100% (or close to) accuraccy....

I remain unconviced with the validity of blind testing as a useful method for myself........but accept others love it and say good on them, blind test away.  In this example though I'd be supremely confident of passing the blind test under any test methodology......in the colloquial vernacular " I'd bet my house on it"  

[myrantz]

MLXXX, on Feb 13 2011, 07:44 AM, said:

Treblid, suggest you reword question 1 for clarity. It currently reads: "Do you believe what I've said (Only for post #1), i.e. do you think i'm lying?".

Is that better now?

POV, on Feb 13 2011, 07:44 AM, said:

MLXXX at his finest.

Maybe he is the aussie importer of kettle cords?

ajm, on Feb 13 2011, 07:46 AM, said:

Hardly surprising though is it.  I mean, it was a pretty half-arsed effort.

It was actually a pretty decent BT effort... Informal, but decent. The "report" is half arsed...

ajm, on Feb 13 2011, 07:46 AM, said:

In hindsight it probably would have been better to keep the "results" to yourselves.

Alot of these results are kept to themselves.. People who knows what is actually happening aren't sharing these info.. Many people don't share these info as they cannot take the grief the public lashes against them. So much better to just sit back relax and enjoy _their own_ system.

Now this is a chance for folks who read this to improve their own system a little.

ajm, on Feb 13 2011, 07:46 AM, said:

No question treblid believes the outcome but for people hoping for something remotely robust this was a total fizzer.

Not sure you appreciate actually how hard it is to describe the outcome... You have to experience this for yourself as my language ability can't describe it.. Feels hairs standing on the back of my neck at times...

[ajm]

POV, on Feb 13 2011, 10:55 AM, said:

Yeah I suppose you could see it like that if you wished.....but you really had to be there to experience how obvious it was.  As I posted in the other thread:

I don't know that there's any other way to see it.  A "blind" test where you've got a fairly good idea what's being listened to isn't all that blind.

I'm not saying I don't believe that you all heard a difference, I'm just disappointed that is was done in a half-arsed way and reported in a vague and ambiguous way.  The "test" is being question because no effort was made to make it otherwise.  It's almost like it was deliberately done in a haphazzard way so there would be these questions of doubt and the lines could be drawn the same way as before.

I can't shake the feeling that more effort went into not having the test fail than into finding anyting.

[POV]

MLXXX, on Feb 13 2011, 09:55 AM, said:

POV, if it was really that obvious I have to query what was wrong with the killer DAC that its performance varied so markedly depending on what power cord it was connected to. It's unusual bevaviour, wouldn't you agree?

Since you are already convinced you know the answer, I don't see what there is to gain from me answering your question.  I mean lets be brutally honest hear.  You have absolutely no interest in my views whatsoever, nor do you place any credence whatsoever in my application of electrical theory (you've made that very clear) so you tell me MLXXX:  what possible reason could I have for wanting to engage in a technical discussion with you?

[MLXXX]

POV, on Feb 13 2011, 09:44 AM, said:

MLXXX at his finest.  This is a perfect example of why attempting an exchange with you on a forum is an excercise in futility.  You don't have any interest in 'conversing' you are only interstested in talking.  I suggested (multiple times) in the other thread that people were focussed on power amps when IME they exhibit the least improvement from power cables.  But I suppose since my understanding of the theory "lacks proportion and perspective" as you put it.....I suppose my message got lost in the agendas (woops I mean arguements)  

Can you please try to tone down your attitude, and communicate with me without casting aspersions?

It was the power amplifier test that was the main focus of the other thread. Why a power amp wasn't tested at kajak's I don't know. Was there insufficient time?

[POV]

treblid, on Feb 13 2011, 10:34 AM, said:

It was actually a pretty decent BT effort... Informal, but decent. The "report" is half arsed...


Alot of these results are kept to themselves.. People who knows what is actually happening aren't sharing these info.. Many people don't share these info as they cannot take the grief the public lashes against them. So much better to just sit back relax and enjoy _their own_ system.

Now this is a chance for folks who read this to improve their own system a little.


Not sure you appreciate actually how hard it is to describe the outcome... You have to experience this for yourself as my language ability can't describe it.. Feels hairs standing on the back of my neck at times...

Agree on all counts!

[myrantz]

ajm, on Feb 13 2011, 08:11 AM, said:

The "test" is being question because no effort was made to make it otherwise.  It's almost like it was deliberately done in a haphazzard way so there would be these questions of doubt and the lines could be drawn the same way as before.

Fair enough, any recommendations you can make to make the test a better one (not haphazzard), so that there will no questions of doubt at all... Nothing at all.

[myrantz]

MLXXX, on Feb 13 2011, 08:15 AM, said:

It was the power amplifier test that was the main focus of the other thread. Why a power amp wasn't tested at kajak's I don't know. Was there insufficient time?

I am pretty sure on the get go when I say I want to go for the BT I'm only wanted to test if power cables have any difference..

That thread has steered quite far from the OP's anyway. Why not say test it on an Emotiva? You're just doing what we already think you'd be doing..

U're in brisbane, see if you can arrange with the QLD guy and hope you'd get the same result.. If not, then too bad ...

[POV]

MLXXX, on Feb 13 2011, 10:45 AM, said:

Can you please try to tone down your attitude, and communicate with me without casting aspersions?

Are you serious.  Considering your responses to my posts I find this a bit rich....

MLXXX, on Feb 13 2011, 10:45 AM, said:

It was the power amplifier test that was the main focus of the other thread. Why a power amp wasn't tested at kajak's I don't know. Was there insufficient time?

The power amplifier was YOUR main focus, others tried to move the discussion but were largely unsuccessful.  We picked one component and did some testing, once we got to a point were we were all satisfied with the result, we kicked back with a beer and enjoyed ourselves.  As I said above I expected this and maintain it would have happened no matter what was posted.