558 replies to this topic

[jimval]

To everyone that is considering purchasing an Oppo 95 NXE upgrade from Nuforce, please take note of the response I received from Nuforce:

First my request:

"So considering that is $1500 more than the price of the standard unit, what specifically do I get for $1500 of my hard-earned money?"


Nuforce Response:

"We said enough on the website and I think you just have to wait for reviews. Regardless of what we said, ultimately you are going to pay for what you can HEAR.  If we said it is made of platinum and you can't tell the difference, it is worthless to you.  So when we completed the design and have chance to evaluate the result, you will hear more about it.  We generally never disclose clearly details of the design, this has been our approach to guard our trade secrets.

Thanks
Jason"


I find the above response arrogant.
Suffice to say, I would not piss on Nuforce if they were on fire let alone purchase their "upgrade".

[petetherock]

Hissssss.... snake oil alert...

Its a bit "Goldmund" like isn't it?


Nuts to Nu force...

jimval, on Jan 6 2011, 11:11 PM, said:

To everyone that is considering purchasing an Oppo 95 NXE upgrade from Nuforce, please take note of the response I received from Nuforce:

First my request:

"So considering that is $1500 more than the price of the standard unit, what specifically do I get for $1500 of my hard-earned money?"


Nuforce Response:

"We said enough on the website and I think you just have to wait for reviews. Regardless of what we said, ultimately you are going to pay for what you can HEAR.  If we said it is made of platinum and you can't tell the difference, it is worthless to you.  So when we completed the design and have chance to evaluate the result, you will hear more about it.  We generally never disclose clearly details of the design, this has been our approach to guard our trade secrets.

Thanks
Jason"


I find the above response arrogant.
Suffice to say, I would not piss on Nuforce if they were on fire let alone purchase their "upgrade".

[jimval]

petetherock, on Jan 7 2011, 02:18 AM, said:

Hissssss.... snake oil alert...

Its a bit "Goldmund" like isn't it?


Nuts to Nu force...

Very much so.

Their response simply should have been,

"Thank you for your enquiry. We will release further details as they are made available...etc."

...and that would have been enough.

Instead this Nuforce wanker has simply insulted the intelligence of a potential customer.

I did not ask for details of their design, nor did I ask if it "sounded" $1500 "better" than the standard unit, which is of course ridiculous.
I simply would like to know what I am paying for, i.e. specs, components used etc, just like when you look at the technical specs of any other piece of kit.

I am a practicing electrical engineer of almost 30 years experience and holding a senior position in the field, as well as an audiophile for even longer than that, and I don't need some snotty nosed wanker that I can teach a thing or two, talking down to me.

The response is enough to tell me the kind of people that work in Nuforce, of which I now want to have nothing to do with.

...snake oil anyone?

Nuforce, aka wankers.

Edited by jimval, 07 January 2011 - 02:31 AM.

[Benje]

jimval, on Jan 7 2011, 01:41 AM, said:

First my request:

"So considering that is $1500 more than the price of the standard unit, what specifically do I get for $1500 of my hard-earned money?"

do you think your respondent might have found your question slightly inflammatory?  I would.


Benje

[Chopsus]

jimval, on Jan 7 2011, 02:11 AM, said:

So when we completed the design and have chance to evaluate the result, you will hear more about it.

Ummm, probably closer to the real truth (above) = "We don't know know 'cause we 'avn't built one yet ... regardless of what we put in it (in fact it might just be a sticker and gold highlights on the knobs) that;s how much we intend to charge for it."

[jimval]

Benje, on Jan 7 2011, 08:27 AM, said:

do you think your respondent might have found your question slightly inflammatory?  I would.


Benje

On its own, possibly, but I don't think in the context of what is going on here, as I will explain. Furthermore I only quoted what the salesman copy and pasted in his response.

My entire email was as follows:

"Dear Sir,

I am interested in purchasing an Oppo BDP-95 when it becomes available, and would consider getting it upgraded to a NuForce Xtreme Edition but there is a major issue I can see.

Your product page rehashes in a vague way, what will be already be available in a standard Oppo BDP-95.

I understand you will sell the Oppo BDP-95 Nuforce Xtreme Edition for $2495.

So considering that is $1500 more than the price of the standard unit, what specifically do I get for $1500 of my hard-earned money?

Cheers,
Jim"

Prior to writing the above email, I noted that at least in another post, enquiries had been made to Nuforce in regards to the above subject, but with no result.
I therefore decided a more direct approach was required.

I should point out also that my email was sent to their sales team email address (i.e. salesteam@nuforce.com).
You therefore would sincerely hope that a salesman of a company you owned would have a much "thicker" skin than to possibly be "inflamed" by the above email
(though my subsequent reply to his response certainly would have ).

In the end, it should be pointed out that after a number of posts about the subject, I sort of "got the truth" out of them, or "let the cat out of the bag" so to speak,
i.e. that they have picked a figure of $1500 for an "upgrade" and are not sure of its composition.

Knowing this now, I must say I don't have a problem with it. I.e.

Their price point could have been determined from the set of (upgrade) requirements they likely have already developed, and are still determining whether the design, implementation and test can be met within that price point. Only then will they be able to determine whether all the requirements can be met, or have to be revised, at which point more information will be released.

Edited by jimval, 07 January 2011 - 02:45 PM.

[HumanMedia]

MrMan, on Jan 5 2011, 10:58 AM, said:

The BDP-95 NuForce Extreme Edition (NXE) (MSRP $2495):

•Employs the BDP-95 platform plus a state-of-the art Sabre32 DAC, thus raising performance to an even higher level.
•Two-channel ultra-high-performance output for music
•7.1-channel ultra-high-performance output for movies
•All channels utilize extensive re-clocking circuits
•A more robust power supply with multiple regulation


What exactly are they upgrading? Everything listed above comes stock on the 95 anyway. $2495! Phfffffff

It appears as though they are replacing the analog output stage for both the stereo and multichannel outputs (the weakest point of this signal chain) plus a new clock for each DAC, and a new power supply, just as they say. There isn't much left except the drive and DACs.

Personally I would go after a ModWright modified unit over a NuForce mod, anyday. (and I've had standalone amplifier products from each company)

Edited by HumanMedia, 07 January 2011 - 03:42 PM.

[Benje]

jimval

thanks for your follow-up post.  

benje (a happy oppo bdp-83 user)

[:)]

sorry, but something smells. and until they can physically show whats been done to improve on the oppo 95 .....the pong aint going away !  

[Gialandon]

any ideas of the cost of the 95?

[Anden]

Gialandon, on Jan 7 2011, 06:08 PM, said:

any ideas of the cost of the 95?

Subjective at the moment, but standard one being " subjective " only is around the $1000 USD mark i believe.
Anyone please correct me if i'm off target.
Mark.

[petetherock]

I have a Nuforce 83 but this saga has put me off another Nuforce for now.
I think the standard 95 will suffice...

[Anden]

petetherock, on Jan 8 2011, 01:36 AM, said:

I have a Nuforce 83 but this saga has put me off another Nuforce for now.
I think the standard 95 will suffice...

Ditto, that was the saga of the original CHT group buy, wanted the torroidal power supply, but settled on the standard modded 83, there were to many upgrades from him, an look where it left him in the end sorry to say, but we all got our players in the end with a little to an fro.

[cwt]

jimval, on Jan 7 2011, 03:44 PM, said:

Their price point could have been determined from the set of (upgrade) requirements they likely have already developed, and are still determining whether the design, implementation and test can be met within that price point. Only then will they be able to determine whether all the requirements can be met, or have to be revised, at which point more information will be released.

Theyve always been very secretive of their proprietary methods Jim [ the number of modders around feeds paranoia  :blink:  ] ; not unlike sony and the rest of them   ; you can read between the lines a bit from what they did with the 83se ;

http://www.nuforce.c...p83se/index.php

Interesting post at avs where nuforce rank their players if anyone is considering the $800 [from nuforce as well]  upgrade from the 83nue  ;

Quote

A: Analog SQ: 95 Nuforce Extreme > 93 Nuforce Extreme > 93 Nuforce Edition>Nuforce CDP-8> 83 Nuforce Edition. We can't comment on the Oppo 95.

[:)]

cwt, on Jan 8 2011, 09:07 PM, said:

Theyve always been very secretive of their proprietary methods Jim [ the number of modders around feeds paranoia  :blink:  ] ; not unlike sony and the rest of them   ; you can read between the lines a bit from what they did with the 83se ;

http://www.nuforce.c...p83se/index.php

Interesting post at avs where nuforce rank their players if anyone is considering the $800 [from nuforce as well]  upgrade from the 83nue  ;

When pics of boards are posted cwt, anyone with even half a clue can usually pick up the difference. With the 83se I saw nothing of significance, certainly nothing to back up the premium charged.  

Given what they have listed For the 95ne version is exactly what you get with the oppo 95, like a few others does leave you wondering what you actually get for your money apart from the nuforce badge  

[com5984]

Chopsus, on Jan 7 2011, 09:31 AM, said:

Ummm, probably closer to the real truth (above) = "We don't know know 'cause we 'avn't built one yet ... regardless of what we put in it (in fact it might just be a sticker and gold highlights on the knobs) that;s how much we intend to charge for it."

think you have hit the nail on the head Col

[yorac]

:), on Jan 8 2011, 09:25 PM, said:

Given what they have listed For the 95ne version is exactly what you get with the oppo 95, like a few others does leave you wondering what you actually get for your money apart from the nuforce badge  

and one less organ........

[:)]

MrMan, on Jan 5 2011, 10:58 AM, said:

The BDP-95 NuForce Extreme Edition (NXE) (MSRP $2495):

•Employs the BDP-95 platform plus a state-of-the art Sabre32 DAC, thus raising performance to an even higher level.
•Two-channel ultra-high-performance output for music
•7.1-channel ultra-high-performance output for movies
•All channels utilize extensive re-clocking circuits
•A more robust power supply with multiple regulation


What exactly are they upgrading? Everything listed above comes stock on the 95 anyway. $2495! Phfffffff

hello ! looks like nuforce has updated info on the 95, make of the change (or omission) what you will  

Quote

The BDP-95 NuForce Extreme Edition (NXE) (MSRP $2495):
(more technical details will be available after prototype has been evaluated)
Employs the BDP-95 platform, thus raising performance to an even higher level.
Two-channel ultra-high-performance output for music
7.1-channel ultra-high-performance output for movies
All channels utilize extensive re-clocking circuits
A more robust power supply with multiple regulation

way I read it they have now made it ambiguous enough that makes it hard to know if they mean these are improvements or just what you get with the standard oppo 95  

[GaryCook]

petetherock, on Dec 23 2010, 12:15 PM, said:

Not everyone will need or benefit from the 95. If you just want good video and use the HDMI out on a budget to mid level HT amp, the better DACs may be wasted on you. Then the 93 will suffice.Those 1-2k HT amps are not the best way to showcase the stereo performance, and don't the specs entice you.

The whole chain of partnering equipment makes a big difference.

If I get the 95, I will use good analogue RCA interconnects to my stereo amp (MF A 5.5) and the B/W 805s. That gives you an idea of the kind of partnering equipment to bring the best out of the 95.

Unless you spend a lot on your HT amp / speakers etc, the 93 will suffice.

Cheers.

Maybe reversing the logic would give a better result for me, superior BD Player + mid level AVR = better result ?  Currently from the BD player I run HDMI direct to the LCD and optical to a mid level AVR.  Hence currently using the DAC in the AVR.  With a 95 I could run 7.1 to the AVR, thus using the ES9018 SABRE³² Reference DAC in the 95, which would obviously be a superior DAC.  Also the 95 would give decoding for Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS, DTS-HD High Resolution Audio, and DTS-HD Master Audio, some of which the current AVR doesn't cover.  Does that sound logical?

Another question, for superior stereo, I assume I should use the Stereo Audio (RCA's) output from the 95 to the AVR's Stereo Audio (RCA's) input.  Hence also gaining the advantage from the superer ES9018 DAC in the 95.  Is that also logical?

What have I missed?

Cheers
Gary

[petetherock]

I would use the 95 in stereo.
From your description, you will use it in HT.
You should read old threads on using the analogue outputs of a Hi Def player and all the issues with bass management for HT. You also lose any auto-EQ or Audyssey. That means you need to be really good at calibration.

[:)]

if running a stereo setup the 95 with its stereo outputs would be attraction. if just have a midrange avr, I very much doubt its performance over analog wouldnt compromise the end result in going over analog, and then as pete suggests there is the absolute mess of trying to do multichannel analog. personally id suggest if cant decode hdaudio in your mid range avr, its probably better option to upgrade that then try work around analog. if have some old high end legacy pre pro with no hdmi capability then perhaps something like the 95 goign over multi ch analog maybe worth a shot.

[cwt]

:), on Jan 8 2011, 09:25 PM, said:

When pics of boards are posted cwt, anyone with even half a clue can usually pick up the difference. With the 83se I saw nothing of significance, certainly nothing to back up the premium charged.  

Given what they have listed For the 95ne version is exactly what you get with the oppo 95, like a few others does leave you wondering what you actually get for your money apart from the nuforce badge  

They were expected to come clean at ces Al but going on the replacement analog board for the 93 I cant see any substantial changes but not a good comparison as its a $ 400 add on . Its about 3/4 of the way down ; http://cave.homethea...w-report-robert

I dont think its the one with the fancy reclocking just better op amps supposedly  

[GaryCook]

petetherock, on Jan 14 2011, 11:44 AM, said:

I would use the 95 in stereo.

OK

Quote

From your description, you will use it in HT.

Yep, that's my thinking, it's set up 5.1 with 5 matching KEF speakers plus a 17" sub that has it's own 400 watt amp.

Quote

You should read old threads on using the analogue outputs of a Hi Def player and all the issues with bass management for HT.

Thanks for th tiip Ill try a search, not sure what to search for though.  I'm not overly concerned with bass management, I have a separate subwoofer amp with plenty of control.

Quote

You also lose any auto-EQ or Audyssey.

No Audyssey, the Denon 3805 does have auto eq. but I don't use it.

Quote

That means you need to be really good at calibration.

I have a sound meter and I'm quite happy with the set up after following Mark's thread on Audio Calibration.



Cheers
Gary

[GaryCook]

:), on Jan 14 2011, 06:59 PM, said:

if running a stereo setup the 95 with its stereo outputs would be attraction. if just have a midrange avr, I very much doubt its performance over analog wouldnt compromise the end result in going over analog, and then as pete suggests there is the absolute mess of trying to do multichannel analog. personally id suggest if cant decode hdaudio in your mid range avr, its probably better option to upgrade that then try work around analog. if have some old high end legacy pre pro with no hdmi capability then perhaps something like the 95 goign over multi ch analog maybe worth a shot.

I gotta say I'm confused, why have such great DAC's in the 95 if the concensus is not to use them?  Similarly, why does the 95 have 7.1 analogue output if "there is the absolute mess of trying to do multichannel analog"?

Maybe I'm not looking at this the same way you are.  Let me try another track, what if I had say a Denon 4311, would you suggest using the DAC in the 4311 or the DAC in the Oppo 95?  If the latter, how would you connect it?
  
Cheers
Gary

[:)]

GaryCook, on Jan 16 2011, 01:26 PM, said:

I gotta say I'm confused, why have such great DAC's in the 95 if the concensus is not to use them?  Similarly, why does the 95 have 7.1 analogue output if "there is the absolute mess of trying to do multichannel analog"?

Maybe I'm not looking at this the same way you are.  Let me try another track, what if I had say a Denon 4311, would you suggest using the DAC in the 4311 or the DAC in the Oppo 95?  If the latter, how would you connect it?
  
Cheers
Gary

have another read of my post, its not the dacs in the 95 per se the issue, its the mid range avr and compromises that occur when setting up and utilising over multi channel analog.

also its not mark techers thread you need to be reading for setup over multichannel analog, but the ones linked to in the htfaq. quite a few of us have come through from the non hdmi age with trying to get by with avrs and processors without hdmi capabiltiy and players that can do hdaudio. and having been down that path with a variety of players and avrs and testign with processors both mid range to high end. I can tell you given the choice of multichannel audio whether over analog or hdmi I'd choose hdmi anytime.

with something like the midrange avr in the 4311 I would say hdmi for multichannel audio without a blink. for 2ch give it a shot over analog if you like, but I'd dare say youd end up sticking with hdmi or optical as well.

now if your talking something like a quality 2ch integrated or 2ch pre amp, I would say come of the L&R analog outputs of the 95 for best result. thats where the analog stage and dacs of the 95 over that of the 93 gets utilised,

other application as mentioned is where say stuck with a non hdmi legacy lexicon or some old thing that cost you $15k back in the day and cant get $1k for it. rather than taking a bath on that selling for a pittance something like the 95 is way to go over multichannel analog. presumably this old piece is still got it over multichannel analog, but yeah I can tell you there will still be compromises due to limitations in setup. and the day you move onto hdmi you'll never look back for mutlichannel hd audio.