114 replies to this topic

[myrantz]

:), on Dec 16 2010, 07:30 AM, said:

Frozen pod is correct in his assessment.

That only mean you agree with his assesment.. However, that doesn't mean I disagree.. That's why audio is so interesting...

Main reason I chimed in is due to this:

Quote

It has been years since I performend FFT's on amps but there certainly appears to be distortion in the non nice sounding harmonics that are audiable/detectable. That being said the amp I have heard I would have thought would have a noticeably higher THD given the considerable amount of auidable distortion.

It's like the police finding an evidence of some sort and trying to get the suspects to fit the evidence... Sometimes changing a part sounds bad, but is it bad, or the old part mask some flaws that's previously unknown? You may like the new change, but is it really better?

Will be good if he can describe what the distortions sound like.. As distortions could be anything from the amplification to room interaction.

:), on Dec 16 2010, 07:30 AM, said:

And is what determines it's ability to sustain power draw as claimed. Cut it and dice it anyway you like and you cannot beat the laws of physics.

That I agree.. One can't beat the laws of physics.. Granted I don't understand it all, and somethings still don't make sense for me. But we all have to live with the constraints..

:), on Dec 16 2010, 07:30 AM, said:

You will note this is something not the case with their more expensive amps. Where some sanity rules. But certainly with the cheaper amps in discussion definitely a case of marketing department getting a bit overenthusiastic in claims hehe

Hopefully the more expensive amps use more expensive parts..

But that's not always the case, sometimes products are more expensive purely by perceived brand value.

Edit:

wilsact, on Dec 16 2010, 08:11 AM, said:

I do understand the laws of physics.... well almost....     , but in every bench test (not just emotiva's listed tests) power claims have been pretty much spot on.  Unlike most avr tests?

Power isn't everything... It's the quality of the power, and how responsive it can at delivering it.... Everything becomes clearer, and you just turn down the volume rather than up...

Specs have reduced a complex issue into a series of numbers, like a summary.. Specs only tell part of the story...

wilsact, on Dec 16 2010, 08:11 AM, said:

If they are using these same bench tests for all their tests (unlike manufacturers who can use a number of tests), then what is the problem with comparing what they find between avrs and different amps?

Frozen pod do have a point. I have a constant fear now that everything we have has a built in chip that changes the behaviour when in a test environment. Granted things like this are banned in Australia but if one is fitted, nobody will know..

wilsact, on Dec 16 2010, 08:11 AM, said:

Are you saying that the bench tests they are using favour certain brands more so then others?  (im talking about audioholics as above as an example)

Yes.. everybody has bias.... It is impossible to stay neutral. I'm trying to stay neutral here, but as an Elektra user, given a choice of a Elektra and a Emotiva, at $2k, guess which one I'd grab if I need another power amp?

wilsact, on Dec 16 2010, 08:11 AM, said:

Again I stand by the 'its not the specs, thd, or claims' but the sound that matters.  Some like.  Some don't.

+1... What I like may actually sound like ****, or too loud for most, but it doesn't really matter as it's what I like..

Edited by treblid, 16 December 2010 - 10:37 AM.

[mafra]

I don't know what the actual debate is here but just look at the price of this gear !! How can anybody build this for that price ??

They must be losing money on this gear !!

Emotiva XPA-3

XPA-3 Three Channel Audio Power Amplifier
200 watts RMS x 3 into 8 ohms | 300 watts RMS x 3 into 4 ohms
Holiday Sale Price: $XXX*
+ FREE shipping (in continental U.S.)

Edited by mafra, 16 December 2010 - 11:24 AM.

[myrantz]

mafra, on Dec 16 2010, 09:19 AM, said:

They must be losing money on this gear !!

They're just making less money... Time will tell I guess, if they do lose money, they have to shut up shop pretty soon...

[frozenpod]

wilsact, on Dec 16 2010, 11:11 AM, said:

Interesting point.  This is discussed at length on the emotiva lounge forum, where vastly more knowledgeable people then I have commented.

I do understand the laws of physics.... well almost....   -  , but in every bench test (not just emotiva's listed tests) power claims have been pretty much spot on.  Unlike most avr tests?  

If they are using these same bench tests for all their tests (unlike manufacturers who can use a number of tests), then what is the problem with comparing what they find between avrs and different amps?

Are these bench tests they are using favouring certain brands more so than others?  (im talking about audioholics as above as an example, who I find go over the top with showing how they test, and results....a good thing I guess!!)

I am not going to comment on how I think the tests were conducted but the short answer is yes not all tests are equal and it is common that power output test results don't match the Tx specs and what the amplifier is really capable of as per your comment of AVR tests.

The power supply is often the most expensive part of an amplifier which is one of the reasons why given the XPA-5 which uses a 1200VA transformer is exceptional value in $ per watt. The XPA-5 in theory capable of around 900w contiuous power output. Given the nature of real world audio loads that is more than sufficent.

wilsact, on Dec 16 2010, 11:11 AM, said:

Again I stand by the 'its not the specs, thd, or claims' but the sound that matters.  Some like.  Some don't.

Thanks

Very true which is why this amp (XPA-5) IMO doesn't cut it.

In terms of the sound the noise floor is very low and in auidable which is great but the distortion is auidable (XPA-5). As per my previous posts the distortion isn't a nice distortion and this amplifier is harsh on the ears. Dispite wanting to turn the music up to enjoyable listen levels I just had to keep turning it down after very short bursts. To put it frankly not only was the distortion audiable as soon as you reach a good listen level even a slightly lower sound levels this amp quickly became hard on the ears thus was not far short of horrible for long listening sessions.

[wilsact]

Very true which is why this amp (XPA-5) IMO doesn't cut it.

In terms of the sound the noise floor is very low and in auidable which is great but the distortion is auidable (XPA-5). As per my previous posts the distortion isn't a nice distortion and this amplifier is harsh on the ears. Dispite wanting to turn the music up to enjoyable listen levels I just had to keep turning it down after very short bursts. To put it frankly not only was the distortion audiable as soon as you reach a good listen level even a slightly lower sound levels this amp quickly became hard on the ears thus was not far short of horrible for long listening sessions.


And around and round we go.....-

1.In your opinion.

2. In the setup and speakers that you auditioned with.

3. And with your hearing.

Sound quality is highly speculative, and dependant on a number of factors such as speakers, source, room etc etc etc.

You've heard one amp, not everything in the Emotiva range.  This is what you have based your entire view point on (including equipment you have only read about, and not even heard??).

There is no answer here, only some will like and some will not.  For those that really do care and not just fire poking there is only one way to really know......

Now I've forgotten what the original post was even about.....Let's move on to which is the biggest junk out of plasma v lcd.  There us plenty of numbers, figures, readings etc to get excited about there-

Or I know...even better!! Let's all start individual topics about which speaker brand we think is junk.  Rules are we have to ignore the owners thread's that have already been started though, and make sure the original post is full of inaccurate

info.

GOLD!!!

Edited by wilsact, 16 December 2010 - 02:09 PM.

[myrantz]

frozenpod, on Dec 16 2010, 11:20 AM, said:

In terms of the sound the noise floor is very low and in auidable which is great but the distortion is auidable (XPA-5). As per my previous posts the distortion isn't a nice distortion and this amplifier is harsh on the ears. Dispite wanting to turn the music up to enjoyable listen levels I just had to keep turning it down after very short bursts. To put it frankly not only was the distortion audiable as soon as you reach a good listen level even a slightly lower sound levels this amp quickly became hard on the ears thus was not far short of horrible for long listening sessions.

Distortion is kind of generic and mean different things to different people....  Is the distortion anything like "Ssss"?  Don't think what you say sounds like "ssss" coz you seem to be way more experienced than me ...

But just in case if that's what you are hearing. Quite likely it's a room response issue.. I listened to some osbourne speakers (no idea what model it was) a while back and got that "sss" noise. The higher the volume, the worse it gets... Basically some mid-highish frequencies build up and gets over dominant. Some room treatments may fix it, possibly diffusers. But untested as they were replaced to something else.

One thing for certain is that the Osbournes may be hard to tame.. This makes me realise just how important the room is as my old bookshelves can more or less work in all the room environments I've tried... The same can't really be said for every speaker.

With mass production amp modules can be quite cheap, and even cheapies can do an ok job (at the end of the day depends on how fussy one is).. e.g people like logitech THXs, which I don't really like, or Mutekis.. But there are people who swear by them. And for the price, WAF etc, it can't be beaten... One day hopefully I'd experience an emotiva system, and I do hope they can beat the Mutekis ...

[frozenpod]

wilsact, on Dec 16 2010, 02:43 PM, said:

And around and round we go.....-

Sound quality is highly speculative, and dependant on a number of factors such as speakers, source, room etc etc etc.

Room was always the same for the tests and the room is sonically quite good but I'm sure there are always improvements to be made even with custome built deadicated rooms. Also multiple speakers were tested not just osborns but VAF's and energy's. Results were the same.

Again with 3 other amps the sound was much better it is just the emotiva amp.....

wilsact, on Dec 16 2010, 02:43 PM, said:

You've heard one amp, not everything in the Emotiva range.  This is what you have based your entire view point on (including equipment you have only read about, and not even heard??).

And when have I bagged out the brand??? I think they are onto a winning formula just need a slight increase in sound quality and they will be exceptional in performance and at an unbeatable price.

In terms of there products of interest to me, I looked at there processor decided to buy something else as a number of reviews and owners indicated it wasn't up to scratch quite a few isues listed most fixed with firmware updates but at the end of the day I wanted 3D HDMI capabilities which is what I made my final decision on.

The UPA range the writting is on the wall regarding there power output and I have made zero comments on how they sound.

XPA-5 I have made my comments nothing more to say.

[frozenpod]

treblid, on Dec 16 2010, 02:43 PM, said:

Distortion is kind of generic and mean different things to different people....  Is the distortion anything like "Ssss"?  Don't think what you say sounds like "ssss" coz you seem to be way more experienced than me ...

But just in case if that's what you are hearing. Quite likely it's a room response issue.. I listened to some osbourne speakers (no idea what model it was) a while back and got that "sss" noise. The higher the volume, the worse it gets... Basically some mid-highish frequencies build up and gets over dominant. Some room treatments may fix it, possibly diffusers. But untested as they were replaced to something else.

One thing for certain is that the Osbournes may be hard to tame.. This makes me realise just how important the room is as my old bookshelves can more or less work in all the room environments I've tried... The same can't really be said for every speaker.

With mass production amp modules can be quite cheap, and even cheapies can do an ok job (at the end of the day depends on how fussy one is).. e.g people like logitech THXs, which I don't really like, or Mutekis.. But there are people who swear by them. And for the price, WAF etc, it can't be beaten... One day hopefully I'd experience an emotiva system, and I do hope they can beat the Mutekis ...

Osborn's hard to tame???? They are exceptional speakers using arguably the best drivers in the world, well made and perform great. They are no different to any other rear firing port speaker with inverted dome tweeters. As per my other post other speakers were used as well for a comparison test.

In terms of the room, it has carpeted floors, curtains and minimal hard reflective surfaces. As per my previous post I'm sure it isn't perfect but it is quite good and certainly better than most.

[wilsact]

frozenpod, on Dec 16 2010, 03:30 PM, said:

Osborn's hard to tame???? They are exceptional speakers using arguably the best drivers in the world, well made and perform great. They are no different to any other rear firing port speaker with inverted dome tweeters. As per my other post other speakers were used as well for a comparison test.

In terms of the room, it has carpeted floors, curtains and minimal hard reflective surfaces. As per my previous post I'm sure it isn't perfect but it is quite good and certainly better than most.

Well I've got my next topic.

'Osborn's any good, or junk in a fancy box'.  -  Of course no trolling intended, I simply want to learn about them.

Edited by wilsact, 16 December 2010 - 02:54 PM.

[wilsact]

frozenpod, on Dec 16 2010, 03:24 PM, said:

And when have I bagged out the brand???

'Bottom line, they are not great amps they don't sound perfect and they have audiable THD which is hard on the ears and not suitable for listening to music'

'My comments have only been to point out the truth as to how good the sound is from Emotiva amps from my experience excluding the cost.'

'The A3000 is now $1900, from what I have read it is better than the UMC-1 3D ready and doesn't have the bugs (or as many bugs). A3000 has heaps of power more than 99.9% of people will ever need and the internal amps sound better

than the emotiva amps'

All from listening to one amp in the entire range???

This might assist-

EMOTIVA CURRENT PRODUCT RANGE
http://emotiva.com/


UMC-1
Audio-Video Processor


USP-1
Stereo Preamplifier
XDA-1
D/A Balanced Converter

ERC-1
Reference CD Player

XPA-1
Mono-block Amplifier
XPA-2
2 Channel Amplifier
XPA-3
3 Channel Amplifier
XPA-5
5 Channel Amplifier

UPA-1
Mono-block Amplifier
UPA-2
2 Channel Amplifier
UPA-5
5 Channel Amplifier
UPA-7
7 Channel Amplifier

ERT-8.3
Reference Towers

ERM-6.3
LCR Monitors

ERM-6.2
LCR Monitors

ERD-1
Surround Speakers



UAC-6.2
In-Ceiling Speakers

UAC-8.2
In-Ceiling Speakers

UAW-6.2
In-Wall Speakers

UAW-8.2
In-Wall Speakers

UOM-6.2
Outdoor Monitors


ULTRA SUB 10
Ultra Series Subwoofer

ULTRA SUB 12
Ultra Series Subwoofer


About Emotiva Interconnects
X-Series Cables

Ultra Series Cables


XBAL-1x2
Audio Splitter

XRCA-1x2
Audio Splitter

ET-3
Trigger Expansion Module

SS-6
Speaker Stand
UMC-R
Milled Aluminum Remote
EMOWEAR
AMPWEAR

Edited by wilsact, 16 December 2010 - 04:10 PM.

[bassett]

frozenpod, on Dec 16 2010, 03:30 PM, said:

Osborn's hard to tame They are exceptional speakers using arguably the best drivers in the world,

Your drawing an exceptionally long bow there old son,,   Start another thread on the subject ,  and I'm sure we can have deep
and meaningful discussions on the subject  

[myrantz]

frozenpod, on Dec 16 2010, 12:30 PM, said:

Osborn's hard to tame???? They are exceptional speakers using arguably the best drivers in the world, well made and perform great. They are no different to any other rear firing port speaker with inverted dome tweeters. As per my other post other speakers were used as well for a comparison test.

You see to reject others and yet expect us to take your words as gospel?... I do think they are hard to tame, but nothing's impossible.

BTW, did you not see a somewhat contraction in your sentences? Exceptional in one yet no different in another? By extension all rear firing port speaker with inverted dom tweeters are exceptional?

*see what can be done when things are taken out of context?

First of all, describe in more detail if you can what kind of distortions are you hearing?

frozenpod, on Dec 16 2010, 12:30 PM, said:

In terms of the room, it has carpeted floors, curtains and minimal hard reflective surfaces. As per my previous post I'm sure it isn't perfect but it is quite good and certainly better than most.

carpeted floors mean nothing if it's not well protected from the concrete base. FWIW my polished porcelain  tiles did a lot better job at absorbing sound than the old carpets (replaced due to water damage) and cheap floor laminates (same issue) I had before.

Of coz thicker carpets, quite possibly the material itself and better liners (mine is foam) will make a difference. but this example should be proof that one just cannot make sweeping comments that carpets = automatically good. I call these tiles magic tiles because I have no clue why it can do this.

You may well be right, but do not forget that if you are probably on a different level with people like me.. What I consider good may actually be bad to your ears.. And by extension what others find good I may not like at all...

It's just the way this hobby is. It's not like a level thing where people can go up or down... So who gives a damn about measurements and if compared to a quality 2 channel amp it's not as good? Unless it's a measured on your unit the measurements themselves are practically useless.. If ou prefer a quality 2 channel amp, stick to the quality 2 channel amp and leave it at that (You really should be comparing the XPA-2 I think, not the 5).. Sure engineering wise it has to be correct. But at the end its what you hear that matters.

There are over 7 billion people in this world, not everyone will have the same thought belief as you. It is a subjective hobby and can be easily influenced by people, factors, or snake oil. There's a market for everybody.

Why do you need to reject other's views, insisting that yours is the right one? What's the point anyway? (really we are all guilty of this ).. Sure the motivation may be it's better to save the money, but think of the economy...

So relax, play some music/movie, sit back and just enjoy ... There is a market for everybody.

Disclaimer: I do not own any Emotiva product and quite likely will not get anything anytime soon...

[mafra]

treblid, on Dec 16 2010, 12:29 PM, said:

They're just making less money... Time will tell I guess, if they do lose money, they have to shut up shop pretty soon...

They are probably being bank rolled by the Chinese Government on the quiet and so can afford to lose money for the sole purpose of putting the competition out of business Looks like they may succeed at doing that eventually

[pelennor]

Amplifiers are funny things ..

http://www.matrixhif...enedor_ppec.htm

is an interesting read.

Now I'm not saying that adding power amps to an AV receiver based system isn't going to make a difference to sound quality, but the sound quality difference between similarly rated power amplifiers are proabably neglible.

[infected flow]

After reading this thread thankgod i decided to go the active route....LOL

Seems to me maybe emotive aint for everyone..works for some but not others

Bang for buck i think its great! You pay for what u get! golden rule of thumb..

Everyone has different listening experiences as no one hears the same sounds as each other... if it sounds great for your setup thats great if its harsh get rid of it!...ahhaha and post it up like you have ...lol

Now you can get everyone's opinion on the product but it will vary as the setup/room/listening experience and then you have different speakers components and so forth will be different compared to your own setup and hearing...

Personally i would try and listen to the range yourself if you can...im sure people here would be more then accommodating if you ask nicely...

Yes there are pros and cons to this product but in the end theres a reason why its cheaper... As a business point of view id actually be selling it under the selling bracket of other amps in that class and not rock bottom prices but thats my opinion...

[Jutta]

infected flow, on Dec 17 2010, 08:16 AM, said:

You pay for what u get! golden rule of thumb..

This statement simply can not be applied here.
They (Emotiva) sell direct to the public.
If Emotiva sold to a distributor who sold to subs who sold to stores who sold to customers they would be 3x the price still using exactly the same internal parts.

This thread is getting old real fast. Well actually it was there a fair while back.

[infected flow]

Jutta, on Dec 17 2010, 08:21 AM, said:

This statement simply can not be applied here.
They (Emotiva) sell direct to the public.
If Emotiva sold to a distributor who sold to subs who sold to stores who sold to customers they would be 3x the price still using exactly the same internal parts.

This thread is getting old real fast. Well actually it was there a fair while back.

Yes it does no matter who is involved...as a manufacturer myself that has factories in china its always rule of thumb!

[Mitcon]

Jutta, on Dec 17 2010, 07:51 AM, said:

This statement simply can not be applied here.
They (Emotiva) sell direct to the public.
If Emotiva sold to a distributor who sold to subs who sold to stores who sold to customers they would be 3x the price still using exactly the same internal parts.

This thread is getting old real fast. Well actually it was there a fair while back.

Have to agree, heck it was old before it started. And if your a owner your opinion doesn't seem to count as they rate you as either bias, a fanboy or someone who has no idea.

infected flow, on Dec 17 2010, 08:02 AM, said:

Yes it does no matter who is involved...as a manufacturer myself that has factories in china its always rule of thumb!

I have to agree with Jutta, as the business model and re-sellers can and does make all the difference. Only common sense here as all people in the handling at each stage work pro profit and need their margin. Sure just because you sell direct doesn't mean you have to sell cheap, you can ask a market price but thats the individual companies choice. I for one like to support small business that sell direct and for a lower than market price, too many massive companies already out there taking us all for a long walk on a short pier.

I think this is half the problem with peoples perception of Emotiva and companies like them that because they choose to not have massive margins and sell cheap that this reflects their products are cheap or lacking in some way. In this day and age you do get what you pay for but it has nothing to do with quality. If you buy a well known name your not paying for quality (well it may or may not be quality) but rather R&D, share holders, aggressive advertising, staffing and all other associated overheads and then as well as the cost of production your paying wholesale and retail margins.

So with alot of those big well known names your not just paying for the quality of parts or build of a component but rather many facets which quite a few of have nothing to do with the actual product but more to do with retail marketing and coffers margins.

[Jutta]

It has been done to death on a few forums now.

Without naming names here (I'd hate to be labelled a fanboy), there are two processors that are exactly the same other than the faceplate.
X sells for sub $1k and the Y at $2k
One sell direct to public the other through retail.

There is an automatic perception that Y is twice as good as X
People do not realise that X and Y are identical.

[shoddy]

Speaking as an Emotiva owner all I have to say that I love my XPA-5 and as such will buy more of their products in the future when the time\need comes.

I could care less what others think of the Emotiva gear or any other manufacturers stuff, only my opinion matters to me. It should be the same to all those reading this post. Try it out for yourself and come to your own conclusions.

[infected flow]

Mitcon, on Dec 17 2010, 09:22 AM, said:

Have to agree, heck it was old before it started. And if your a owner your opinion doesn't seem to count as they rate you as either bias, a fanboy or someone who has no idea.




I have to agree with Jutta, as the business model and re-sellers can and does make all the difference. Only common sense here as all people in the handling at each stage work pro profit and need their margin. Sure just because you sell direct doesn't mean you have to sell cheap, you can ask a market price but thats the individual companies choice. I for one like to support small business that sell direct and for a lower than market price, too many massive companies already out there taking us all for a long walk on a short pier.

I think this is half the problem with peoples perception of Emotiva and companies like them that because they choose to not have massive margins and sell cheap that this reflects their products are cheap or lacking in some way. In this day and age you do get what you pay for but it has nothing to do with quality. If you buy a well known name your not paying for quality (well it may or may not be quality) but rather R&D, share holders, aggressive advertising, staffing and all other associated overheads and then as well as the cost of production your paying wholesale and retail margins.

So with alot of those big well known names your not just paying for the quality of parts or build of a component but rather many facets which quite a few of have nothing to do with the actual product but more to do with retail marketing and coffers margins.

ok that being said its my opinion and this is yours .... yes i know the concept its like importing from singapore as well much cheaper but not stupidly cheap cutting out the middle man may help to a degree and the components maybe the same but im sure there are a few processes which are skipped to get the product to you cheaper..
but in the end you get what you paid for if it suits you great if not ..rant about it and throw it in the bin or sell it....

and yeah it has been done to death this topic it reminds me of that cheap 3dtv website...lol less then half the price for overseas models with warranty and the hd tuner doesnt work...hahah same concept if it really happened..

Edited by infected flow, 17 December 2010 - 11:20 AM.

[infected flow]

shoddy, on Dec 17 2010, 11:08 AM, said:

Speaking as an Emotiva owner all I have to say that I love my XPA-5 and as such will buy more of their products in the future when the time\need comes.

I could care less what others think of the Emotiva gear or any other manufacturers stuff, only my opinion matters to me. It should be the same to all those reading this post. Try it out for yourself and come to your own conclusions.

Totally agree! each to their own

[Tephra]

so basically the Emotiva amps are worth 2-3 times the price you are paying, ie they are comparable to other amps 2-3 times the price...

so its a very good deal in that price range..

however if you are looking for quality rather than quantity, then perhaps look elsewhere... you will pay more... but such is life

[:)]

shoddy, on Dec 17 2010, 11:08 AM, said:

~

I could care less what others think of the Emotiva gear or any other manufacturers stuff, only my opinion matters to me. It should be the same to all those reading this post. Try it out for yourself and come to your own conclusions.

Spot on ! As with any gear . You know what it's like for you, that's all matters. Other People entitled to own opinions. No need for anyone to get into bother because of someone else thinks.

[Mitcon]

Just buy what suits your needs, budget and taste is the most import thing to say. Saying paying more will get you better quality isn't always going to be acurate as you can pay more and get far less, that said I don't believe anyone has suggested that Emotiva makes the best amps money can buy.

There is always a better product somewhere, better suited to a particular system or persons taste and yes it will normally cost more. It's all old and done to death, the original question was "are Emotiva any good" and the answer is simple but a subjective yes if they suit your needs and personal tastes. If your asking can a better amp be bought for the same kind of money then I doubt it even if you make it yourself, but if your asking is there such a thing as a better amp then there most certainly is.

lol, this is the thing I love about the merry-go-round of audio as it's like food and everyones tastes are different as well as the perception of what quality is. Some people love good food while other love bad junk food, some peoples opinion of what is good quality food is different from anothers perspective. All I can add is the old saying, the proof of the pudding is in the eating and with that I have Emotiva custard all over my face  

Where's the popcorn