470 replies to this topic

[jasoroony]

Well, one mistake makes nothing obvious.  Monthly firmware updates make it hard to wait a few months before upgrading - because the "fools" who are doing your testing won't even have the version you're talking about installing anymore...  Not to mention it's been removed by Samsung by that point...  And excuse me if I don't wait for a "fools" advice on if the thing breaks any of the 10,000 "function points" that are contained within a 100MB piece of software.

If there are no "fools" as you would like to call them, then nobody would ever upgrade due to the FUD you are producing as advice.

It's not as if my TV is going to be irreparable, Samsung have configured these TVs to auto update 2 hours after being turned off so they are condifent enough that it's safe to do, and will replace any TV that breaks if something goes really wrong leaving you with a brick.  And with the feedback they get, in a couple of weeks this will all go away.  So other than being inconvenienced for two weeks in that I can't (happily) rewatch some 3D blurays I've already seen, it's not such the big deal that you are making out.

[marauderxp]

Owen, on Dec 18 2010, 01:38 AM, said:

Obviously Samsung's testing is less than best, all the more reason to wait until the issues with new firmware releases are well understood.

Fools rush in.

But obviously their testing is only flawed on this occasion and with the 3d. Since there have been no known issues with their numerous firmwares before, why would one hesitate to update? There is so much functionality on these TV's that new updates are pretty much crucial for current and new features.

Back when I first got the TV, I experienced a problem where the HDMI inputs were 'lost' occasionally. Had to power off and leave for a while. I saw there was a firmware update.. I applied it, problem was fixed. It would seem silly to live with an issue like that and be scared about updating waiting endlessly for posts to suddenly appear saying "don't update don't update". It doesn't make sense.

Once again, this is the only occasion where their testing was lacking. As Jasoroony said, noone would ever upgrade if they followed your advice, so then how could 'issues with new firmware releases' ever be well understood as you say? Samsung would think everything's fine lol. Thanks to others like Tiles and Herb in this thread, we have sussed out where the issue lies, as until recently, it was thought to be something other than firmware. So if noone updated, this wouldn't even have been talked about and nothing would have ever been understood?????

I can only hope Samsung FW people will learn from this and understand that 3d is such a variable thing and it needs thorough testing when they've tweaked. Up until now it's all been great.

Edited by marauderxp, 18 December 2010 - 05:38 PM.

[Tiles]

disregard the "fools rush in" comment made by the snotty nosed little poster earlier, this thread is for people to share their experiences with others to help find a resolution to a common problem. Comments like that do nothing to contribute to the discussion so take it with the grain of salt its worth. Maybe check out the "i am the greatest" thread owen, or if it cant t t be found im sure you'll start it. Anyway in this instance big thanks to everyones input (especially marauderxp herbs and andys) as i think we've been successful in finding the answer we set out to find and now we just have to wait for it to fixed. If only samsung had us on their books lol!!

[herbee]

I really hope that the next firmware update won't take too long and that we can finally enjoy at least the same 3D quality that we had before installing these 300x updates.

[marauderxp]

Well said Tiles. And yeah I seriously think it would be beneficial for both manufacturer and consumer if they established a method for having customers sign on to test new firmware and offer feedback.

[MRCRIST]

I find it very annoying and this comment is not only directed at Samsung (as other manufacturers are just as guilty) that testing firmware before they release to their loyal consumers isn't done with QC in mind.

I recall as a Topfield PVR owner the very poor FW updates we were getting where they would solve one issue and start a new problem.

I don't think it is a case of "fool's rushing in" but more a case of bona fide trusting consumers making the most basic assumption that when a company like Samsung , Sony
Pioneer etc etc release a fw update it is thoroughly tested. If people are having issues then it is the case of once bitten twice shy.

It is an unfortunate testament of our modus of operandi in today's world that jobs are rushed  out and issues  fixed later.

Therefore customer feedback becomes inherent in the process. The beta testing is actually "live" to the customer base.

It saves them money. "Why test it internally let the people tell us if anything is wrong."


Sadly that is reality and has nothing to do with being a fool.

Edited by CC Rider, 19 December 2010 - 12:16 PM.

[marauderxp]

Argh, Topfield! I still have a Toppy 7000 PVR that I don't use much now, but yeah they've been one of the absolute worst with firmware. They really had no idea what they were doing. A gazillion bugs no matter what version.  I updated a long time ago and had more critical problems so downgraded again and then gave up updating it again. I think in their case they released their boxes knowing full well there's a lot to fix up and just left it until later but there was so much to fix that they didn't know where they were!

As you say, we're really the guinea pigs aren't we.

[MRCRIST]

marauderxp, on Dec 19 2010, 07:29 PM, said:

Argh, Topfield! I still have a Toppy 7000 PVR that I don't use much now, but yeah they've been one of the absolute worst with firmware. They really had no idea what they were doing. A gazillion bugs no matter what version.  I updated a long time ago and had more critical problems so downgraded again and then gave up updating it again. I think in their case they released their boxes knowing full well there's a lot to fix up and just left it until later but there was so much to fix that they didn't know where they were!

As you say, we're really the guinea pigs aren't we.

Must admit they were a lot better with the 7100 I own but many were returned back to the retailler. My mate at JB told me they really got so frustrated that they threatened

them that they would cease stocking them.

Alas guinea pigs we all are

[Tiles]

thought i'd let everyone know i received an email from the guy in the uk who had his set replaced after they could not fix his 3d excessive crosstalk issues, which after receiving the new set the problems were not there. Unfortunately for him he told me he had not posted for a while but he is so annoyed as his same 3d crosstalk problems from the last set returned on his new set directly after upgrading to the latest firmware once again confirming that the firmware is the issue. Thanks for the PM marauderxp i will send off a report on what we have found and hope things get fixed in a hurry

[marauderxp]

Appreciate the info there. Was scratching my head a bit about how he didn't have it after set replacement, but I feel better knowing now turned out to be firmware lol.

If the stores always updated, I bet Samsung would've had a fix out by now. Can you imagine how much crap would be hitting the fan if all the display models had that issue after updating?

[Tiles]

No doubt. Im pretty sure that 9000 series LED i checked out at harvey norman had the new firmware because the crosstalk on that was insane. They had better hurry up before all models are shipped with the new firmware and samsungs name turns to shite

[Overlytaxed]

I'll throw my two cents in and confirm what previous posters have stated.

Bought my 58 inch in early June and must say the 3D experience was hugely impressive. Received my 3D bluray player via redemption, took an eternity to get to me, played MvA and found it to be a great 3D experience. No ghosting and a pronounced 3D effect. I did notice that there was a slight strain when watching 3D, I emphasize slight strain. The strain was most definitely tolerable and I could quite easily watch a movie or sporting event in its entirety without any headaches, nausea etc, etc.

Now when I watch a sample viewing of MvA, or any 3D material for that matter, there is no strain whatsoever, however, there is ghosting and the 3D effect has been greatly diminished. It would be safe to assume that Samsung received a raft of complaints regarding strain, headaches, etc, etc and have attempted to mitigate aforementioned issues by tinkering with the 3D aspect. Why else would they change it?

I have the foxtel 3D channel and can confirm that the college basketball games foxtel air also suffer from ghosting.

Unfortunately, Samsung have failed on two counts. Firstly, they have greatly diminished the 3D experience, and secondly, they have introduced the dreaded ghosting into the equation. Not very happy with Samsung as they have essentially taken away a feature of the Tv.

Anyways, lets hope a raft of complaints pertaining to the diminished 3D effect motivates Samsung to do something about it.

Cheers

[Tiles]

Overlytaxed, on Dec 20 2010, 03:41 PM, said:

I'll throw my two cents in and confirm what previous posters have stated.

Bought my 58 inch in early June and must say the 3D experience was hugely impressive. Received my 3D bluray player via redemption, took an eternity to get to me, played MvA and found it to be a great 3D experience. No ghosting and a pronounced 3D effect. I did notice that there was a slight strain when watching 3D, I emphasize slight strain. The strain was most definitely tolerable and I could quite easily watch a movie or sporting event in its entirety without any headaches, nausea etc, etc.

Now when I watch a sample viewing of MvA, or any 3D material for that matter, there is no strain whatsoever, however, there is ghosting and the 3D effect has been greatly diminished. It would be safe to assume that Samsung received a raft of complaints regarding strain, headaches, etc, etc and have attempted to mitigate aforementioned issues by tinkering with the 3D aspect. Why else would they change it?

That could possibly be a reason why they have played with it, I also remember the one thing thing that was always brought up with 3d was that the glasses made the picture much darker. Maybe they've tried to keep the alternating lenses open just that bit longer to let more light through hence brightening the picture but in the meantime it has left the alternate image linger just that bit too long making it visible for the other eye??
Probly a number of things they have tried to improve but did not test, just implemented and this is the result.

[Black beard]

After reading and intially commenting in this thread a few weeks ago - I have been checking in every Harvey Norman store I go near to see if I can demo one of these sets in 3D to see if they exhibit the same crosstalk issue that my panel is displaying after updating the firmware as soon as I got it.....

I have been shocked to discover that not a single one of the 4 Harvey Norman stores I have visited aroudn SE Qld actually have a Samsung PSxxC7000 plasma set up for 3D viewing, and when asked if they can be set up - it's apparently too hard "but just check out the Samsung 3d LED as the picture is the same".  What a joke.

Any educated consumer should know that a 3d plasma will perform better in 3d mode than a 3d LCD based set (especially in the area of cross-talk).  I guess it just lends credibility to the "theory" that major retailers actively push customers towards the more expensive LED based sets which have higher sales margins.

Interestingly - the only Plasma based 3d set you can demo in any of the HN's I visited was the Panasonic VT20A based sets.

*edit - sorry for the slight off topic*

Edited by Black beard, 22 December 2010 - 08:57 AM.

[Tiles]

Black beard, on Dec 22 2010, 09:55 AM, said:

I have been shocked to discover that not a single one of the 4 Harvey Norman stores I have visited aroudn SE Qld actually have a Samsung PSxxC7000 plasma set up for 3D viewing, and when asked if they can be set up - it's apparently too hard "but just check out the Samsung 3d LED as the picture is the same".  What a joke.

Any educated consumer should know that a 3d plasma will perform better in 3d mode than a 3d LCD based set (especially in the area of cross-talk).  I guess it just lends credibility to the "theory" that major retailers actively push customers towards the more expensive LED based sets which have higher sales margins.

Interestingly - the only Plasma based 3d set you can demo in any of the HN's I visited was the Panasonic VT20A based sets.

*edit - sorry for the slight off topic*

spot on same at harvey norman caringbah nsw only had the 9k series led displaying 3d and i played dumb and said i wanted to see the plasma 3d and he said "nah dont worry they look exactly the same". Well they may aswell now, both a s#*t load of crosstalk. DJ's is fine 4me to replace but need authorisation from samsung who now want to send a tech out again since the last one never turned up. I told them basically it was a DOA as as soon as i got the 3d starter kit i reported the fault to samsung. Looks like ill be waiting a while, i just wanna replacement b4 they're loaded with new firmware. Probly already too late. Also i know pyranna 3d was a 3d after thought but i bought it lastnite at jb, i think it has the best demonstration of crosstalk imaginable in the first minute. All the words that come up are either unreadable or give you the worst headache. Seriously! I have a new crosstalk demo disk to show lol

[MRCRIST]

Tiles, on Dec 22 2010, 02:51 PM, said:

spot on same at harvey norman caringbah nsw only had the 9k series led displaying 3d and i played dumb and said i wanted to see the plasma 3d and he said "nah dont worry they look exactly the same". Well they may aswell now, both a s#*t load of crosstalk. DJ's is fine 4me to replace but need authorisation from samsung who now want to send a tech out again since the last one never turned up. I told them basically it was a DOA as as soon as i got the 3d starter kit i reported the fault to samsung. Looks like ill be waiting a while, i just wanna replacement b4 they're loaded with new firmware. Probly already too late. Also i know pyranna 3d was a 3d after thought but i bought it lastnite at jb, i think it has the best demonstration of crosstalk imaginable in the first minute. All the words that come up are either unreadable or give you the worst headache. Seriously! I have a new crosstalk demo disk to show lol

Patience is the key here. I trust Samsung will put in a fix for the issue.

Crosstalk is caused by the refresh rate not keeping up hence images are left behind resulting in double imaging appearing.

Why the slowed down the refresh rate is beyond me. It could be that they may have tried to reduce the mll rise with 96hz for 2d hence causing 3d to suffer. But this is purely speculation.

The reason/s may never come to fruition.

Edited by CC Rider, 22 December 2010 - 02:45 PM.

[SharP]

I too have the crosstalk (just in case if someone from Samsung is reading this thread). Do all 3000 firmwares have this issue or only some?

[marauderxp]

It's all versions 3000 and after. Please contact Samsung and report the problem to them. The greater amount of complaints the quicker they'll fix it.

[Tiles]

i agree patience is the key but we also have be onto samsung about it as when i asked this guy who is to authorise my replacement (so he's not just a nobody) about guys on internet forums from australia and europe having perfect 3d  until they upgraded to the 3000's firmware and instantly crosstalk was introduced, he said he hasnt heard of any reports of this and he reckons they have their demo model at the end of the hall to check for these issues. He said it is loaded with the latest firmware from dec 6th being 3005.1 and stated it does not show any crosstalk whatsoever. This is what worries me that we are holding out for a firmware fix which may not be coming?...

[herbee]

Well, all persons to whom I talked to at the Samsung hotline in Germany (and even the technician) said the same, i.e. that they never heard of these problems I mentioned (about the syncing of the 3d glasses and those firmware-issues) so I am really not sure whether they have to say so even though it's not the case or if they really have never heard of these issues.

But what I know for sure is that are quite a few people from different countries in Europe and from Australia experiencing the same problems - there must be a reason for this.

The following are a few reports from different boards worldwide where people are talking about the same problems, I already sent these links to Samsung Germany but I have not received any helpful answer till now. Maybe you can find some more as they should prove that it is not just pure imagination:

Quote

about the sync-problem with the 3D glasses:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
a )
http://www.hifi-foru...back=&sort=&z=1
b )
http://www.avsforum.....php?p=19136634
c )
http://forum.digital...c-461115-4.html


about the increased crosstalk since 300x:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
a )
http://www.avforums....g-c-series.html
b )
http://www.hifi-foru...d-138-2714.html
c )
http://www.dtvforum....opic=91986&st=0
d )
http://www.hifi-foru...&postID=680#680
e )
http://www.homecinem...9066&start=1245

Edited by herbee, 23 December 2010 - 09:31 AM.

[jasoroony]

I just reverted my 3004.0 firmware (never loaded 3005) back to 1016.0 and it all seems to work still, the TV did a complete reset like it was new - and crosstalk is back to original.

I have to say, that scene in MvA with the spotlights on the landing pad still has some crosstalk, but everyone here agrees it's *so* much more watchable now.  It's almost like with the new firmware you see 1/3 the light which you shouldn't, but the old firmware is about 1/6 or better.. sometimes the three spotlight images did converge to one, but then popped out to three again and so on.  That never happened on the new firmware - it was always just bad.  Most other scenes which are brighter don't show crosstalk, or if it does it's very subtle, which again is different to the new firmware where you see it all the time.

There are instructions on "how to do it" floating around the SamyGO forum, you need "root access" to the TV via putty so you can edit the Version.0 file (don't copy a new one! someone there has a brick already!) using vi back to 1001 & 2010/01/01, it's taken me all day (about 6 hours) and you need a fair amount of computer skills.  The Internet@TV stuff has to be configured/upgraded first, takes about 20MB downloading, then some other stuff needs to be downloaded on the TV, about another 15MB which is all automated, and you need to set up your own webserver (http) on the same network the TV is on so some hacked files can be sent into the TV.  Then you use two usb sticks formatted with different file systems (you could get away with reformatting just one in between) and the hack injects some extra code in the USB startup routine so it runs SamyGO when the stick is plugged in.  I don't suggest anyone does this!  (I don't want to be blamed for anything that goes wrong.)

I also had issues with my network, not having a proper access point, in that my local webserver I needed to use was not accessible at the same time as the Internet, so I was unplugging the wireless dongle and using a network cable for some steps, where I found out you get a "Network Server or interference occurred" error on widget updates until I fixed the DNS and Gateway to point to the same webserver machine I used.  But once SamyGO is running, you can putty in as root and edit that file, I looked at the version in the menus after I exited vi and it said v 1001!  Then I inserted my other usb key with 1016 on it and it asked if I wanted to "upgrade".

It does all work, and from the testing I've done, everything is as if I'm back to 4~5 months ago.

[MLXXX]

An heroic effort.

[marauderxp]

Nice work, Jasaroony! I looked at doing all the Samygo stuff a while ago, but I didn't think it worked on the c7000 models????? Well obviously it does then. Do ya need linux for any part of it? I'm very keen to do it. I hope you don't mind if I query you if I get stuck?

Is this the guide you followed?

http://sourceforge.n...n_a_C_series_TV

EDIT: Well I've pretty much got a handle on everything in that guide. Could you please explain about what you did after getting root access with that guide and with the version.0 file though? A bit lost there. I want to go back to the same version as you did.

Thankyou kindly

Edited by marauderxp, 23 December 2010 - 07:43 PM.

[jasoroony]

Yeah, that's the link.  There's another though - where the guy says he bricked his TV - and then the guy who worked it all out said "you should have edited the file to say..." where the lowest version numbers are given.

http://sourceforge.n...v...?f=9&t=1059

I only used the numbers, I didn't change any letters in the version file. (SWU_T-VALDEUC_001001_I04_ES000DS000KS000RS000_100101 this means I just changed the parts 001001 & 100101)

You do need Linux, I used Red Hat - an old VMWare image I used years ago...  Had to remember how to mount a USB device.. had to relearn "vi" commands..  Had to use WireShark to work out why I got the "Network Server or interference occurred" where the packets were saying the TV was looking for the gateway which didn't exist!  I did use IIS on XP for the http server though - and that all worked easily enough.

The nice thing, which I have not done (yet) is being able to mount windows shares (see the end of that link you posted) so they look like they are part of the USB device!

Edited by jasoroony, 23 December 2010 - 08:03 PM.

[jasoroony]

One last thing, when it says run the widget and the screen will go black for a while - they mean a few minutes!  I'm pretty sure you need Internet access at that stage too.  Very scary at that point seeing a black screen for so long!

Edited by jasoroony, 23 December 2010 - 08:01 PM.