61 replies to this topic

[Smacca]

alanh, on Nov 6 2010, 12:16 AM, said:

Smacca,
You are just reinforcing my statement that there is no WA Version of VAST on air. This is what I have been saying from the start.

There are WA channels currently on the VAST platform. No one has access to them, but they are there, on a DVB-S2 platform.

alanh, on Nov 6 2010, 12:16 AM, said:

"The VAST service commences officially for eligible viewers in all states except for Western Australia on 15 December 2010. The WA start date will be announced shortly." This does not mean necessarily that test transmissions have started. http://www.mysattv.com.au/ also

As you say, there will be "test transmissions" for WA. Three Test channels are online now, yet you refuse to accept this. Why?

alanh, on Nov 6 2010, 12:16 AM, said:

" IMPORTANT - The unique smart card and set top box are matched at factory level.  Smart cards  cannot be swapped or used in multiple boxes."

Alan, I don't even have a VAST smartcard, so what does this have to do with anything?

alanh, on Nov 6 2010, 12:16 AM, said:

In Lyngsat the 6 transponders (remembering they have different programs for NE, SE and one for HD) are for the Eastern Version of VAST which includes the HD programs. You can see it states the modulation is DVB-S2. Where is the 5 transponders for Western Australian programs?

Wrong. Completely wrong. 6 transponders for Eastern Version of VAST? Clearly you didn't read LyngSat properly.

alanh, on Nov 6 2010, 12:16 AM, said:

Where is the 5 transponders for Western Australian programs?

Hahahaha. You have no idea, dumbass. 5 transponders for WA? What the hell are they going to use to fill up 5 transponders? Hahaha, this is just beyond words.

alanh, on Nov 6 2010, 12:16 AM, said:

Your first test link does not work and the others say they are 720 x 576 SD programs.

Yes, 720x576, just like all the other VAST SD channels.

alanh, on Nov 6 2010, 12:16 AM, said:

Your images also say they are DVB-S.

Yes they do, however they also say DVB-S for channels that are proven to be DVB-S2, like SBS NSW HD screenshot I posted here. It must be a flaw with my set-top box.

alanh, on Nov 6 2010, 12:16 AM, said:

Your pictures only show the SD programs which are being retransmitted on the new DTV transmitters in WA.

No, these Test channels are for VAST, whether that be direct-to-home or terrestrial relay via VAST. They are encrypted using the same Irdeto provider ID as VAST. Plus, GWN/WIN/TEN already use their own satellite transponder on Optus D1 to deliver signal to terrestrial sites. I doubt they will want to duplicate that.

[Smacca]

alanh, on Nov 6 2010, 12:16 AM, said:

As I said you have a transmitter feed.

Yes, it's the same channels as terrestrial, in the same order.

alanh, on Nov 6 2010, 12:16 AM, said:

The SBS HD shots are also DVB-S which is what SBS uses to feed their transmitters.

Yes, that's a flaw within my box. It displays DVB-S on the EPG info bar when it should display DVB-S2. If you take a look at this screenshot of the information panel for Test 1, you can see that it is infact DVB-S2.

Information Panel: Test 1

Alan, anyone with a DVB-S2 set-top box will tell you this. I'm not trying to fool you or anything, these are legitimate VAST-specification channels, on a DVB-S2 transponder, encrypted with the rest of the VAST suite. You are more than welcome to get a set-top box and check it out for yourself if you don't believe me.

alanh, on Nov 6 2010, 12:16 AM, said:

If you had real VAST you would be able to view 8 different commercial programs of which 3 are in HD.

Correct, but I don't as WA hasn't been switched on yet. That doesn't mean the 3 WA channels don't exist for VAST users in the future.

alanh, on Nov 6 2010, 12:16 AM, said:

Whilst your receiver is capable of DVB-S2/DVB-S reception, your pictures you have posted are definately not VAST or any equivalent because they are not DVB-S2.

As I said, the Dreambox doesn't seem to display the correct modulation in the EPG bar. But I have now provided an image of the information for the WA transponder, which shows it is indeed DVB-S2. LyngSat tells you this if you used it for once.

alanh, on Nov 6 2010, 12:16 AM, said:

You have not broken the encryption in the true VAST transmissions.

I never said I broke encryption. They were free-to-air for a couple of hours. If you had a satellite box, you'd know that sometimes Aurora and even Foxtel go free-to-air for short periods of time for no reason. If you had have read everything I posted, you would know I said "accidentally free-to-air", not "I just hacked the **** out of VAST"

What else do I need to prove to AlanH that I'm not a liar?

[Smacca]

DrP, on Nov 6 2010, 03:22 AM, said:

I think the same cycle is about to repeat here.  alanh says something is fact.  Reality leaps up and contradicts him.  alanh keeps stating his false 'facts'.  Components of the eastern VAST service have been in live operation for some time now and yet alanh still disputes what reality readily demonstrates to VAST viewers on a daily basis.

I can't believe he expects there to be 5 transponders for VAST WA! I literally laughed out loud, so has everyone else I've shown.

DrP, on Nov 6 2010, 03:22 AM, said:

smacca, you "leet haxor", breaking VAST encryption like that so everyone could view all VAST services.  How clever of you.  

Yeah, I saw the off switch on this rack marked Irdeto Access and thought "hmm, this might just work". I wish there was an off switch on AlanH's head.

[DrP]

Indeed.  When I saw his comments about 5 transponders for WA I just about ammended my post with comments similar to yours.  What the hell is WA going to do with 5 transponders worth of space?  The mind boggles.... unless of course he wants to remove DVB-S2 and MPEG-4 AVC from the equation and revert to DVB-S and MPEG-2, that is.  



Ultimately this thread just goes to further prove that alanh really has no idea what he's talking about.  Another tidbit:  According to the 'vast' wealth of knowledge that alanh holds, Foxtel only transmits MPEG-4 AVC.  It has no MPEG-2 component at all.  

[Smacca]

DrP, on Nov 6 2010, 04:13 PM, said:

Indeed.  When I saw his comments about 5 transponders for WA I just about ammended my post with comments similar to yours.  What the hell is WA going to do with 5 transponders worth of space?  The mind boggles.... unless of course he wants to remove DVB-S2 and MPEG-4 AVC from the equation and revert to DVB-S and MPEG-2, that is.  

Oh man, careful with what you say. Who knows what he'll reply with after reading that last bit. "All, Remember this: "

DrP, on Nov 6 2010, 04:13 PM, said:

Ultimately this thread just goes to further prove that alanh really has no idea what he's talking about.  Another tidbit:  According to the 'vast' wealth of knowledge that alanh holds, Foxtel only transmits MPEG-4 AVC.  It has no MPEG-2 component at all.  

Haha, yeah. And he still hasn't said a word about SBS SD vs HD. Does that mean he's wrong? I think silence does, going by past experience.

[alanh]

SMacca,

You have misinterpreted the Lyngsat table:
VAST only contains commercial TV programs because it using the licences for Imparja and Southern Cross Broadcasting.
There is one transponder for each commercial network for the Qld/NT programs. Total 3 Transponders
There is one transponder for each commercial network for the NSW/Vic/Tas/SA protgrams. Total 3 transponders.

Total of 6 transponders which is what is called VAST so far. All the transponders have Australia wide coverage but the authorization determine which set of programs you will see.

Each transponder is carrying an HD and a pair of SD programs. The HD programs are identical except during daylight saving when the NT/Qld is delayed an hour.

So which 3 transponders are carrying the commercial programs including the HD programs using the licences for Prime/WIN?

Since you do not have a receiver which matches the VAST specifications you are not watching VAST in the east. DVB-S/MPEG-2 for commercial stations is not VAST because it does not have all the programs.

Eventually the WA VAST will commence and without buying a receiver conforming to the VAST specifications and authorising it you will not see a VAST program stream.

I will just wait until this happens. Just like DrP said that the VAST system would not be DVB-S2 with MPEG-4 compresssion for HD and SD.

AlanH

[DrP]

alanh, on Nov 7 2010, 12:02 AM, said:

You have misinterpreted the Lyngsat table:

Actually, that'd be you.  Recall (I know its difficult for you to recall, but try anyway) your use of the lyngsat tables to prove that SBS was not providing a HD / SD simulcast on VAST?  Would you like me to link to the posts where you made this statement?   Do you recall that the lyngsat table at the time quite clearly showed SBS HD and SBS SD as being carried?  

Quote

I will just wait until this happens. Just like DrP said that the VAST system would not be DVB-S2 with MPEG-4 compresssion for HD and SD.

Really?  I said that?  Wow!  Can you link to the post where I said that?  I know you've failed to do this before because such posts don't exist but clearly they have lept into existence since your last lame-o attempt.

Quote

So which 3 transponders are carrying the commercial programs including the HD programs using the licences for Prime/WIN?

I wonder why each commercial network in WA will require a whole DVB-S2 transponder.      That's a lot of nulls even if MPEG-2 is employed, which it won't be, just like MPEG-2 is not carried at all on the service in the east.  


Hey, alanh.  A while back you said you'd be laughing as your 'predictions' come true.  Shall we run through that list again?

ABC News 24 will be SD.
ABC News 24 will be compressed with MPEG-4 AVC (terrestrial)
ABC 3 will be compressed with MPEG-4 AVC
ABC will not add ABC1 to the stat mux group because it will lower the picture quality
WIN, ABC and PRIME will commence MPEG-4 AVC terrestrial transmission once their new playout facilities are completed

I hear plenty of laughter, direct at not from, alanh.  

The real world.  alanh's world.  The two will never meet.

Edited by DrP, 07 November 2010 - 04:30 AM.

[Smacca]

I'm literally lost for words. Let's just move on, there's absolutely no hope here.

[ChaosMaster]

In the interests of ensuring that the FACTS are available to those who want them, I have (this evening) prepared a complete list of all VAST service information (info dumped straight from the multiplex itself using TSReader Lite) showing encoding, bitrates, service names, etc.

12367V
12447V
12487V
12567V
12607V
12647V

I say let the data do the talking...

Incidentally ABC3 SE was FTA when I prepared this...hmm...

Cheers,
ChaosMaster

Edited by ChaosMaster, 07 November 2010 - 07:50 PM.

[alanh]

Chaosmaster
Thanks,

12.367 GHz Vertical

Test 1-3 are tests using MPEG-2. Note there is no service identification. They may contain WA program which is the same as being transmitted in Kalgoorlie terrestrially.
It is not VAST because there is no 7Mate, GEM or One HD, 7two, Go! in WA time.
Also its not MPEG-4 like the rest of VAST.

These signals are available to GWN/WIN installation teams so that they can tune the new transmitter DVB-S2/MPEG-4/MPEG-2 satellite receivers.

So when WA Vast starts for real, they will change to MPEG-4 and add the addtional programs. An additional 1/2 transponder will be needed for the 3rd commercial network.


12.447 GHz VerticalAll are MPEG-4 compressed.
ABC24 HD
ABC21 NSW
ABC22 South East
ABC23 South East
ABC21 Vic
ABC24 HD
ABC21 WA
ABC22 WA
ABC23 WA
ABC21 Tas

2 HD and 8 SD channels per transponder

12.487 GHz Vertical

All are MPEG-4

TEN Central South
ONE Central South
ONE HD Central
Regional News1
SCTV Central-South (7 network programs)
7TWO Central-South
SCTV HD Central (7 Mate)

12567 GHz Vertical

All are MPEG-4

SBS HD NSW
SBS 1 NSW
SBS 2 South East
SBSHD Vic
SBS1 Vic
SBS1 Tas
Imparja HD (GEM program)
Imparja South
Go! South
Imparja North Go! North

12.607 GHz Vertical

All in MPEG-4
ABC24 HD
ABC1 Qld
ABC2 Qld
ABC3 Qld
ABC24
ABC1 SA
ABC2 SA
ABC3 SA
ABC24
ABC1 NT
ABC2 NT
ABC3 NT

12.647 GHz Vertical
All MPEG-4

SBS HD Qld
SBS 1 Qld
SBS 2 Qld
SBSHD SA
SBS1 SA
SBS2 SA
SBSHD WA
SBS1 WA
SBS 2 WA
SBS HD Tas
SBS HD NT
SBS 1 NT
SBS 2 NT

AlanH

[DrP]

Sorry ChaosMaster, there's just no way this data is correct.  As we all know SBS SD (SBS1) is simply not being carried, therefore you have faked these charts and graphs (God only knows why).  On this basis I request you to remove your faked data and stop distrupting this thread.  

On other topics, it still hasn't been adequately explain why WA needs three separate transponders to carry the commercial services.  OH..... I see alanh has once again done his usual 'modify and adapt' proceedure when its revealed that he really didn't know what he was talking about.  

First there was 5 transponders
Then there was 3 transponders
Now it looks like 1 and a half transponders

I see that the 'test' channels are now suddenly accepted as being there for testing purposes too.

I wonder how many more adaptions there will be in coming weeks.

Oh, and alanh, I'm still waiting for you to link to the posts where I said that MPEG-4 AVC and / or DVB-S2 would not be employed on the service.  
While I'm at it, gee, it looks those pesky simulcasts (One HD, One SD, SBS HD, SBS1 (SD) ) are being carried too and we all, well all bar one, know the reason why the SD and HD editions are carried.  I'd explain the reason again to that one person but an NDA prevents me from doing so.  

Edited by DrP, 08 November 2010 - 07:11 AM.

[GoForMoe]

Is there any actual proof the VAST version of News 24 is in HD? With the bitrates it is using (2.13Mbps), it seems very likely to me they are carrying it in SD. In contrast, One HD Central/SCTV HD Central are well over 5Mbps, and the SBS HD stations are over 3Mbps.

Why would the ABC/SBS waste time providing a VAST capable WA service if there wasn't going to be movement on WA availability anytime soon? With the bitrates currently being employed in other areas, of ~6Mbps for HD and 2-3Mbps for SD, the remaining services should all fit with space to spare on the WA Commercial transponder, so there's not much to wait on. It is obviously best that they start the WA service early, as they have to give time to transition Aurora viewers, the same reason they are opening up VAST to Aurora viewers in the remote licence area soon, rather than waiting until the 6 months before switchoff of the Analogue services.

[ChaosMaster]

GoForMoe, on Nov 8 2010, 04:53 PM, said:

Is there any actual proof the VAST version of News 24 is in HD? With the bitrates it is using (2.13Mbps), it seems very likely to me they are carrying it in SD. In contrast, One HD Central/SCTV HD Central are well over 5Mbps, and the SBS HD stations are over 3Mbps.

A very good point. The MPEG framerate descriptor lists News 24 as being 50 frames/sec as opposed to the 25 'frames'/sec it gives to the other ABC services, but it could just as easily be 576p (which doesn't qualify as HD according to the VAST spec).
I am not sure what the AVC compatible: 0 Level idc (x) thing is all about (presumably stream profile and level like with MPEG-2), but News 24 has this as 'idc 40', whereas the SD services have this as 'idc 30'...?
It's difficult to say for certain what is going on there unless someone happens to be looking at VAST when it next goes FTA...

Cheers,
ChaosMaster

Edited by ChaosMaster, 08 November 2010 - 05:54 PM.

[DrP]

Yes, its the profile and level within that profile.  In this particular case 3.0 and 4.0.  As with MPEG-2, the higher the profile, the more capable the decoder has to be to render it.

3.0 has the compressed video bit rate limited to a max of 10Mbit/sec, 4.0 can go up to 20Mbit/sec.  4.0 is spec'd for more macroblocks / sec than 3.0.  From that you can glean that ABC News 24 probably is 'HD', probably 720p, same as terrestrial.  Of course, its fully possible to tag something that meets profile / level 3.0 as 4.0, but then a 3.0 decoder shouldn't attempt to render it.

A brief table of what it means can be found here.

Edited by DrP, 08 November 2010 - 06:14 PM.

[alanh]

All,
The VAST service starts officially on 15 December to cover all of the remote areas. Currently the only users are in Mildura and regional SA. These are of course all in the southern service. So the northern service doesn't have to be complete with advertising until then.

This is a broadcast service for the 200,000 viewers in remote areas in DVB-S2/MPEG-4.

AlanH

[ChaosMaster]

Thanks for the info, DrP.

Furthermore, it could be said that the low observed bitrate of News 24 may have only been due to the nature of the content being shown at the time, and is not necessarily indicative of the long-term average bitrate of the channel. (These readings were only taken over 30 seconds each!)
I have previously observed a great deal of 'long-term' variation over an extended period of time in the 'average' bitrates of each ABC's stat-muxed MPEG-2 Terrestrial services, so one might also expect the same to be true of VAST, depending on the nature of the content being shown across each of the channels.

Cheers,
ChaosMaster

Edited by ChaosMaster, 08 November 2010 - 08:20 PM.

[bellotv]

alanh, on Nov 8 2010, 07:40 PM, said:

All,
The VAST service starts officially on 15 December to cover all of the remote areas. Currently the only users are in Mildura and regional SA. These are of course all in the southern service. So the northern service doesn't have to be complete with advertising until then.

This is a broadcast service for the 200,000 viewers in remote areas in DVB-S2/MPEG-4.

AlanH

Heres a genuine question and not a stir up.

I'm a bit confused when you refer to remote areas .

Does this mean someone in Ebor NSW which is on the yellow map on sheet 17 ,Area ID :963  (an area which we used to call a black spot) will be able to receive VAST after 15 Dec 2010 ?

Also needing clarification
A terrestrial Multiplex here for LCN8  has NBN,GEM and GO!
Does VAST carry the NBN or NINE component for as far as I can see ,only mentions GEM and GO!

[mtv]

bellotv, on Nov 8 2010, 09:31 PM, said:

Heres a genuine question and not a stir up.

I'm a bit confused when you refer to remote areas .

Does this mean someone in Ebor NSW which is on the yellow map on sheet 17 ,Area ID :963 (an area which we used to call a black spot) will be able to receive VAST after 15 Dec 2010 ?

Also needing clarification
A terrestrial Multiplex here for LCN8 has NBN,GEM and GO!
Does VAST carry the NBN or NINE component for as far as I can see ,only mentions GEM and GO!

If it's in the yellow map, yes, Dec 15 is the date applications for VAST activation will be authorised.

I expect it will be the NINE component (incl Gem & Go) via Imparja.

'Blackspots' are now considered places within a terrestrial coverge area which cannot receive the terrestrial signals reliably, but at this time, VAST will not be made available to 'blackspots' outside the yellow map areas until 6 months prior to the analogue switchoff date for that terrestrial transmission area..... stupid, I know. Hope this is reconsidered for those who have no terrestrial reception in some blackspots now, but are not in 'yellow map' areas.

[M'bozo]

mtv, on Nov 8 2010, 10:14 PM, said:

If it's in the yellow map, yes, Dec 15 is the date applications for VAST activation will be authorised.

Does that mean there will be large numbers of satellite receivers stockpiled to cater for the rush of applications that no doubt will arrive?

There don't seem to be alternative receivers available yet, although I was told that this can happen. I was informed it would require authorisation cards being sent to the manufacturer of the box to enable marrying of card & box.

Is this so?

I'm already getting enquiries from people outside of the yellow areas who think they'll just be able to purchase a receiver come Dec 15th and have it switched on. (I advise them to do nothing atm).

[DrP]

I can't help wonder if there ever will be alternate receivers available unless those alternates are arranged via government agreement as per the existing UEC receiver.  The hoops to jump through are far higher for a manufacturer than what is currently required for Aurora (essentially no hoops at all); the market isn't that big and once the rollout is done the market will essentially contract to zip sales / month (replacements and grey nomads and that assumes that grey nomads will be eligible for the service in the first place).

A large number of the existing Irdeto receivers on the Australian market wouldn't pass even step one of VAST certification simply because they don't run authorised Irdeto firmware (for those with built in card readers).  It seems to be highly unlikely at this point that a CAM will be permitted to be used so that writes off another swath of receivers.  For those that are left they'll need custom firmware to support VAST which someone will need to write and of course, they'll want to be paid.

Will other manufacturers bother go to the trouble of seeking VAST certification on their own initiative?  

Edited by DrP, 09 November 2010 - 07:54 AM.

[mtv]

Marc,

There's been a shortage of VAST decoders, even to supply Mildura and the regional SA markets, so it will be interesting to see how UEC deals with the demand for December onwards.

As it stands atm, any area outside the yellow map areas have to wait until 6 months prior to analogue switchoff in their area to obtain VAST access and even then may have to provide supporting documentation on terrestrial signal measurements, etc.

I'm doing the same with people in those areas.. advising them to do nothing atm.

I've heard 'rumours' that both Strong and Healing 'may' submit models for VAST approval..... but I wouldn't count on it.

It would be great if there was at least one decent decoder to choose over the UEC crap box.

[DrP]

Strong?  

Most of their boxes would get an instant fail due to not having official Irdeto firmware for the CA side of things.  IIRC there has only ever been one Strong box with official (and correctly licenced) 'Irdeto' firmware and the general operating firmware on the machine was so poor that it was for all intents and purposes a dud.

[M'bozo]

mtv, on Nov 9 2010, 11:46 AM, said:

It would be great if there was at least one decent decoder to choose over the UEC crap box.

Col,

Thanks for that.

A PVR would go down nice, as well.


Marc.

[mtv]

DrP, on Nov 9 2010, 11:53 AM, said:

Strong?

Most of their boxes would get an instant fail due to not having official Irdeto firmware for the CA side of things. IIRC there has only ever been one Strong box with official (and correctly licenced) 'Irdeto' firmware and the general operating firmware on the machine was so poor that it was for all intents and purposes a dud.

I know.

As I said, it's only a rumour.

That aside, all the Strong decoders I've used/provided/installed for Aurora and selectv have worked great with Irdeto 1 & 2 cards, both with and without CAMS.

They perform better than the UEC decoders and have a lot more options, including PVR.

Naturally, any model Strong may submit for VAST approval would need to meet VAST specs.

[viewer]

I've not been able to grasp yet, if I will need to have an authorised antenna installer undertake a site survey, to progress from blackspot Aurora, to VAST, even thogh I have been there done that before, and nothing has changed.

Have you authorised installers been informed, or is it too early yet in the change over process?

Further, what is your ballpark fee to provide this reading of signal at premises?

It seems unfair I should have to pay a fee for something that is meant to be free tv, but I can't expect an installer to work for zip either.

Reminds me of an old song...Stuck in the middle with you?....