417 replies to this topic

[jliang70]

adwaski, on Sep 27 2010, 06:17 PM, said:

Mine is the stock version.

The stock version is barely OK as a CD spinner and in my opinion it would not compare favourably against a $700 standalone CD player. To get better performance out of your two channel stereo you can either get Oppo moded or a better CD player. Those are just my opinion and I am in no way try to say anything negative  what you have at the moment.

Edited by jliang70, 27 September 2010 - 05:57 PM.

[adwaski]

jliang70, on Sep 27 2010, 05:56 PM, said:

The stock version is barely OK as a CD spinner and in my opinion it would not compare favourably against a $700 standalone CD player. To get better performance out of your two channel stereo you can either get Oppo moded or a better CD player. Those are just my opinion and I am in no way try to say anything negative  what you have at the moment.

I agree. The oppo is purely for blu ray purposes only and not for cd. I personally wouldn't by a blu ray player to play cds only. I don't have a dedicated 2ch set up any more due to size restrictions but given the chance, I'd love to have a 2ch only set up.
Back to the original question though i think the gap is alot smaller than it used to be however get the same budget for both systems, like 15k for HT & 15k for 2ch and the 2ch should blitz the HT set up every time. Just my opinion.

[:)]

adwaski, on Sep 27 2010, 05:28 PM, said:

I was running the tube output stage Xpre which is no big hitter by any means. I also had an a100x intergrated which I loved  
I'll hate to admit it but I used to own a denon 3805 which replaced a marantz 5300. I preferred the marantz for overall sound quality and the denon was nearly twice the price. More musical compared to the denon as I find denon very dry and clinical and on the bright side. It's all personal at the end of the day and system dependent including your room acoustics. I'll never consider denon again. Had it for a couple of years though!

Yeah the xpre is about basic and budget as they come for mf pre's and getting very long in the tooth now. The later xa series though very nice indeed including both the integrateds, press and power amps. Not surprised re your comments re the 2ch ability of a denon 3805 either, you'll find quite a few comments of my own re 2ch performance of the 3805 and leaves a lot to be lacking vs even say a $400 analog pre. That said the denons have come leaps and bounds in the last 5 years since the 3805, the 4308 was pretty decent actually and know a few impressed with it 2ch wise. That said 4308 was about twice the price of a 3805 and so no doubt get what you pay for. I would still recommend a pure 2ch analog solution though over it. As believe better results possible with even say a decent 2ch integrated. Re the denon and marantz thing they're owned by the same parent a lot under the hood same as well, they're typically voiced a bit different. So does come down to pers pref as to which is the pick.

[:)]

adwaski, on Sep 27 2010, 06:55 PM, said:

I agree. The oppo is purely for blu ray purposes only and not for cd. I personally wouldn't by a blu ray player to play cds only. I don't have a dedicated 2ch set up any more due to size restrictions but given the chance, I'd love to have a 2ch only set up.
Back to the original question though i think the gap is alot smaller than it used to be however get the same budget for both systems, like 15k for HT & 15k for 2ch and the 2ch should blitz the HT set up every time. Just my opinion.

I agree what's been said re better likely options than oppo for cd source, but again it comes down to what suits your needs. And for many it is quite likely good enough and perfectly suited for what they want. Given a same budget definitely agree easier dollar for dollar for it to sway 2ch way

[Mining Man]

adwaski, on Sep 27 2010, 05:17 PM, said:

Mine is the stock version.

Analogue to the Cary, or digital?

[adwaski]

Mining Man, on Sep 28 2010, 08:52 PM, said:

Analogue to the Cary, or digital?

Hdmi. it's set up for HT. Decent interconnects get expensive once you add up 5 for the power + what ever else you need. I figure 1 decent hdmi will do the trick.

[Mining Man]

adwaski, on Sep 28 2010, 09:20 PM, said:

Hdmi. it's set up for HT. Decent interconnects get expensive once you add up 5 for the power + what ever else you need. I figure 1 decent hdmi will do the trick.

Was more interested in whether you were using the Oppo's analogue stage for CD playback (had presumed HDMI for A/V).  

I'm not a subscriber to jitter theory (only because I haven't "heard" it, or at least am unaware that I have), but HDMI is reputedly awful for it. Perhaps run a single optical or coax as well and configure that input on the Cary for stereo direct.

[adwaski]

Mining Man, on Sep 28 2010, 09:24 PM, said:

Was more interested in whether you were using the Oppo's analogue stage for CD playback (had presumed HDMI for A/V).  

I'm not a subscriber to jitter theory (only because I haven't "heard" it, or at least am unaware that I have), but HDMI is reputedly awful for it. Perhaps run a single optical or coax as well and configure that input on the Cary for stereo direct.

Might try that. I'm happy with the current set up though   . Not sure about the jitter either. I have the oppo on cones and the base plate is stone. This has eliminated any vibration under the player.  

[Mining Man]

adwaski, on Sep 28 2010, 09:39 PM, said:

... Not sure about the jitter either. I have the oppo on cones and the base plate is stone. This has eliminated any vibration under the player.  

Edited by Mining Man, 28 September 2010 - 09:46 PM.

[:)]

Mining Man, on Sep 28 2010, 09:24 PM, said:

Was more interested in whether you were using the Oppo's analogue stage for CD playback (had presumed HDMI for A/V).  

I'm not a subscriber to jitter theory (only because I haven't "heard" it, or at least am unaware that I have), but HDMI is reputedly awful for it. Perhaps run a single optical or coax as well and configure that input on the Cary for stereo direct.

i kid you not last time i compared sacd thru oppo via hdmi vs my sony sacd via analog. left me very underwhelmed with the oppo, certainly wasnt the digital nirvana kal rubinson had me believe.

with the cary doesnt it have trouble locking onto digital for cd anyways, would sh!t me up the wall.

[adwaski]

:), on Sep 28 2010, 10:11 PM, said:

i kid you not last time i compared sacd thru oppo via hdmi vs my sony sacd via analog. left me very underwhelmed with the oppo, certainly wasnt the digital nirvana kal rubinson had me believe.

with the cary doesnt it have trouble locking onto digital for cd anyways, would sh!t me up the wall.

I've heard that also but I haven't had any trouble with my set up which has the latest firmware upgrade. I don't think the oppo should be used as a cd /sacd player only. As a universal it's fine. There's a lot of hype about the oppo but people are getting too carried away with what they think it's actually really go at. That should be displaying a Hi Def picture and carrying the Hi def audio and that's pritty much it. You want better cd replay! buy a cd player, you want really nice sacd replay, buy a player regarded for that purpose. Just my thoughts  

[vassp]

i went through this not too long ago....

I think the gap has come closer but there still is a big difference between the two for me.

Marantz SR8002 $4000 receiver VS Marantz KI PEARL 2ch $5000, placed in the same set up and same position, using the same power... the 2ch amp killed the surround for music, no question about it.

And to give this a sense of scale ill give this example,  the Marantz SR7002 is a good surround amp, but in 2ch the SR 8002 is much much better.


a link to two of my threads based on this topic,

http://forums.audioh...9891#post429891

http://www.dtvforum....topic=81218&hl=

[dantan]

Certainly very good points, vassp.

In general, I would say that for 2-channel Music duties, a dedicated 2-channel electronic component will outperform a multi-channel unit at twice its price.

Dan.

[Mining Man]

dantan, on Oct 1 2010, 12:12 PM, said:

Certainly very good points, vassp.

In general, I would say that for 2-channel Music duties, a dedicated 2-channel electronic component will outperform a multi-channel unit at twice its price.

Dan.

So why would you spend $9k on the Anthem (less salvage value of the 8003) instead of just adding a 2 channel pre into your system?

In fact, I'll go one step further - if not for your surrounds (which are for sale) and given the lack of centre channel, your system would be even more stunning if you entirely replaced the 8003 with the matching KI integrated amp and ran a 2 channel analogue only system. The Sony BD player is certainly good enough to run 2 channel analogue in that system.

If you're not using a centre, and don't like Audyssey style electronic jiggery pokery (as you've mentioned previously), then maybe it's worth some thought?

[dantan]

Mining Man, on Oct 1 2010, 10:53 AM, said:

So why would you spend $9k on the Anthem (less salvage value of the 8003) instead of just adding a 2 channel pre into your system?

In fact, I'll go one step further - if not for your surrounds (which are for sale) and given the lack of centre channel, your system would be even more stunning if you entirely replaced the 8003 with the matching KI integrated amp and ran a 2 channel analogue only system. The Sony BD player is certainly good enough to run 2 channel analogue in that system.

If you're not using a centre, and don't like Audyssey style electronic jiggery pokery (as you've mentioned previously), then maybe it's worth some thought?

Damn you!

I have been thinking (just thinking) about this recently...

...don't need/want someone else to voice this out and give me more ideas!  

Thanks, though, because it is certainly an area I might consider more seriously.

Dan.

[Mining Man]

dantan, on Oct 1 2010, 12:57 PM, said:

Damn you!

I have been thinking (just thinking) about this recently...

...don't need/want someone else to voice this out and give me more ideas!  

Thanks, though, because it is certainly an area I might consider more seriously.

Dan.

Good to hear it's on your radar. I have been blown away with the imaging of a decent 2 channel setup, and if you're not running a centre, there's a strong argument for not overspending on surround sound electronics and instead spending on higher quality 2 channel analogue gear. (Which is probably equally an argument for how important the centre channel is...)

I guess it comes down to how important your surrounds are. Even the sub can be integrated in a 2 channel pure analogue setup.

[dantan]

Mining Man, on Oct 1 2010, 11:45 AM, said:

Good to hear it's on your radar. I have been blown away with the imaging of a decent 2 channel setup, and if you're not running a centre, there's a strong argument for not overspending on surround sound electronics and instead spending on higher quality 2 channel analogue gear. (Which is probably equally an argument for how important the centre channel is...)

I guess it comes down to how important your surrounds are. Even the sub can be integrated in a 2 channel pure analogue setup.

Certainly good points there. I suppose that the problem for me is that while I enjoy surround sound, my surrounds are placed in a far-from-ideal position and to be honest, I don't think that I watch enough movies to really require full surround sound. I do love the lossless audio from DTS and Dolby.

Can you please let me know how I can integrate a sub-woofer into a 2-channel analogue set-up?

For example, the PM-KI Pearl integrated amplifier does not have a sub-woofer out-put.

I don't require my sub-woofer for 2-channel Music listening so I can connect my SA-KI Pearl SACD/CD Player into the CD in-put of the PM-KI Pearl.

However, for Blu-ray Disc audio play-back, if I were to run 2 channels out of the 7.1 analogue out-puts on the back of my Sony BDP-S5000ES, that won't be an issue but I would certainly want to integrate my sub-woofer into the equation. Obviously, there is a sub-woofer out-put on the rear of the Sony but how do I connect it up to the PM-KI Pearl when there is no sub-woofer in-put on the rear of the PM-KI Pearl?

Stupid question but I obviously cannot connect my Sony BDP-S5000ES' sub-woofer out-put directly into my sub-woofer, can I?

Hope that I am making sense here.

Dan.

[Mining Man]

dantan, on Oct 1 2010, 01:52 PM, said:

~
Can you please let me know how I can integrate a sub-woofer into a 2-channel analogue set-up?

For example, the PM-KI Pearl integrated amplifier does not have a sub-woofer out-put.

I don't require my sub-woofer for 2-channel Music listening so I can connect my SA-KI Pearl SACD/CD Player into the CD in-put of the PM-KI Pearl.
~
Stupid question but I obviously cannot connect my Sony BDP-S5000ES' sub-woofer out-put directly into my sub-woofer, can I?
~

If the sub has high level inputs, then you basically route the speakers via the sub, and use the high level crossover of the sub to integrate them. But that means the sub is always active in the system (it also introduces another passive crossover into the path, which personally I'd avoid).

If you only want the sub for anything played via the Sony, then you can certainly take the sub pre out directly to the (active) sub, as you can with any of the pre-outs. However I am not sure if the Sony has separate configurable 7.1 analogue outs, in addition to a pair of higher quality left and right only analogue outs (which can't be used in addition to the .1 sub pre-out)?

I would expect though, that you can configure the Sony to only output via left, right and sub (from the 7.1 pre-outs), just as you could with an AVR running 2.1 only.


EDIT: dumb sub advice. It all seems so obvious in hindsight doesn't it...

Edited by Mining Man, 01 October 2010 - 02:24 PM.

[Chill]

dantan, on Oct 1 2010, 01:52 PM, said:

Certainly good points there. I suppose that the problem for me is that while I enjoy surround sound, my surrounds are placed in a far-from-ideal position and to be honest, I don't think that I watch enough movies to really require full surround sound. I do love the lossless audio from DTS and Dolby.

Can you please let me know how I can integrate a sub-woofer into a 2-channel analogue set-up?

For example, the PM-KI Pearl integrated amplifier does not have a sub-woofer out-put.

I don't require my sub-woofer for 2-channel Music listening so I can connect my SA-KI Pearl SACD/CD Player into the CD in-put of the PM-KI Pearl.

However, for Blu-ray Disc audio play-back, if I were to run 2 channels out of the 7.1 analogue out-puts on the back of my Sony BDP-S5000ES, that won't be an issue but I would certainly want to integrate my sub-woofer into the equation. Obviously, there is a sub-woofer out-put on the rear of the Sony but how do I connect it up to the PM-KI Pearl when there is no sub-woofer in-put on the rear of the PM-KI Pearl?

Stupid question but I obviously cannot connect my Sony BDP-S5000ES' sub-woofer out-put directly into my sub-woofer, can I?

Hope that I am making sense here.

Dan.

Hi Dan

First - another vote for a good 2ch set up - that very much where I will be heading

On the sub - you have the B&W PV1 i believe, if that is the case it will have come with a speaker level conection cord, looks a bit like a phone jack at one end and with bare wire at the other, these connect to the speaker termials. I know you say that you do not "need" a sub for 2ch - but worth a try as many of us believe it make a positive addition, even to music with little bass, ads space


You can not run the sub from the Sony direct - it would be at max volume all the time !!!!!!!!!

[:)]

dantan, on Oct 1 2010, 01:52 PM, said:

Certainly good points there. I suppose that the problem for me is that while I enjoy surround sound, my surrounds are placed in a far-from-ideal position and to be honest, I don't think that I watch enough movies to really require full surround sound. I do love the lossless audio from DTS and Dolby.

Can you please let me know how I can integrate a sub-woofer into a 2-channel analogue set-up?

For example, the PM-KI Pearl integrated amplifier does not have a sub-woofer out-put.

I don't require my sub-woofer for 2-channel Music listening so I can connect my SA-KI Pearl SACD/CD Player into the CD in-put of the PM-KI Pearl.

However, for Blu-ray Disc audio play-back, if I were to run 2 channels out of the 7.1 analogue out-puts on the back of my Sony BDP-S5000ES, that won't be an issue but I would certainly want to integrate my sub-woofer into the equation. Obviously, there is a sub-woofer out-put on the rear of the Sony but how do I connect it up to the PM-KI Pearl when there is no sub-woofer in-put on the rear of the PM-KI Pearl?

Stupid question but I obviously cannot connect my Sony BDP-S5000ES' sub-woofer out-put directly into my sub-woofer, can I?

Hope that I am making sense here.

Dan.

Dan, MM has raised some good points. trust him too  

re sub integration check out the htfaq sticky some good tips there.

no you cannot run your sub out from the 5000es to the sub direct. it needs to go through a pre amp stage to get the same vol level as the rest of the signal. what you would do wiht the 5000es is use its Stereo L&R outputs. ie not the L&R from the 7.1 outputs. but L&R stereo dedicated 2ch outputs (these pick up the full range signal including .1 program). These actually have a better analog stage and dac config than the multi channel out as well. is what I do for mine in the bedroom setup to my nad m3 to great result. with any 2ch amp you use with it you would want to make sure if it has a sub out, some do and to hook upto that. With all the others you'll find most have a pre out L&R jsut for this purpose which you run to your sub.

you would  make sure sub is blended in with your mains. if dont want to use the sub for 2ch you would just switch it off and use it for all other purposes.

can work to pretty great result. and agree with MM if yoru setup is mostly around 2ch anyways might as well just hook up and set yourself up for the best of that. then save your self a mountain on pre pros and the like spend it on music

[dantan]

Thanks heaps, Mining Man and Chill.

Certainly quite a bit there for me to 'digest' and think about.

Dan.

[Chill]

Hay Dan

Just checked the Marantz site, the Pearl has pre outs

therefore problem solved, in part - these are fine for sub driving - that what I and many others do

however, in this case the PV1 may not be ideal as i believe the sub high level (phono) input has no low pass - so the sub will be driven full range

Most other subs would be fine


Me - i would get a second PV1 and hook both up to the speaker outlets on the new pearl

yummmm

[dantan]

:), on Oct 1 2010, 12:10 PM, said:

no you cannot run your sub out from the 5000es to the sub direct. it needs to go through a pre amp stage to get the same vol level as the rest of the signal. what you would do wiht the 5000es is use its Stereo L&R outputs. ie not the L&R from the 7.1 outputs. but L&R stereo dedicated 2ch outputs (these pick up the full range signal including .1 program). These actually have a better analog stage and dac config than the multi channel out as well. is what I do for mine in the bedroom setup to my nad m3 to great result. with any 2ch amp you use with it you would want to make sure if it has a sub out, some do and to hook upto that. With all the others you'll find most have a pre out L&R jsut for this purpose which you run to your sub.

Thanks Al.

I understand most of what you said, but need clarification on:

"with any 2ch amp you use with it you would want to make sure if it has a sub out, some do and to hook upto that. With all the others you'll find most have a pre out L&R jsut for this purpose which you run to your sub."

So, say if I choose a Marantz PM-KI Pearl 2-channel Integrated Amplifier. It does NOT have a dedicated sub-woofer pre-out. How can I send the .1 signal to the sub-woofer if it only has a L and R pre-out?

Sorry but I am not that good with these sort of things.

Dan.

[dantan]

Chill, on Oct 1 2010, 12:20 PM, said:

Hay Dan

Just checked the Marantz site, the Pearl has pre outs

therefore problem solved, in part - these are fine for sub driving - that what I and many others do

however, in this case the PV1 may not be ideal as i believe the sub high level (phono) input has no low pass - so the sub will be driven full range

Most other subs would be fine


Me - i would get a second PV1 and hook both up to the speaker outlets on the new pearl

yummmm

Thanks Chill.

You have just about lost me here.

Okay, so say I use the PM-KI Pearl 2-channel Integrated Amplifier's internal amplification to power my Mordaunt-Short Performance 6 loudspeakers.

I plug my SA-KI Pearl SACD/CD Player to the CD in-put. This is very straightforward, so all good.

However, for movies, I connect my Sony BDP-S5000ES Blu-ray Disc Player (HDMI out for video only straight to my LCD TV) out via analogue L and R into one of the rest of the remaining L and R in-puts in the PM-KI Pearl.

I am aware that the PM-KI Pearl has got pre-outs (for use with an external Power Amplifier). If I were to connect it to a sub-woofer, wouldn't it stop the internal amplification of the PM-KI Pearl from operating? Or have I got it all wrong?

You will have to excuse me, as I am not very good with these sort of things.

Dan.

[POV]

Hi Dan,

This is a really interesting turn in this thread.  I was exposed to what a high-end 2 channel system can sound like for BD audio etc when I sold my old soniques.  The guy that bough them was running the best set-up that i have ever personally experienced and it was 2 channel analogue only (with  subs integrated).  He was using an Oppo BDP83SE with plinius pre and power amps (class A) and huge Dynaudio C4 (I think) and it sounded awsome IMHO.  He had the subs integrated at speaker level (wired in parallel with his mains I think) and all together for a really excellent result, that I just can't imagine being achievable with any AV pro out there.  It was actually this experience that made we start to worry much less about multichannel and more focused than ever on 2 channel.

As to your specific situation the Marantz KI Pearl amp does have pre-outs, so you could run line level out of the marantz into your sub as one option, however this would mean you are just getting the full range signal output of the left and right and NOT the .1 channel.  If you used this method then you would just integrate your sub using its onboard level, crossover and phase adjustment.  I suspect the way to go would be to tell the player tha no sub is fitted and run full range into your mains (meaning that the sub would get a full range signal !!??)


If you wanted to run a 2.1 system and retain the decoded .1 line level signal without using some kind of processor then I don't know of a way of doing this (but would be very interested to hear about it if there is a way.)  Just as a thought but i guess you could run a low end avr (one that does not touch video) as a sub woofer pre/pro and only run your sub through it.....though level matching might be a bit tricky......

Even if you don't go down this path......if you are happy with the multichannel performance of your 8003 then wouldn't it be more cost effective to add a good 2 channel integrated with HT bypass than trying to bring something like the Anthem in??

Cheers,

Drew