417 replies to this topic

[Drizt]

hired goon, on Jul 21 2010, 08:50 PM, said:

G'day,


I've got a Stello DP200 preamp/DAC, an ME15 preamp, and a Rotel RSP-1068 AV pre/pro ... maybe it's time I give 'em all a comparison through the SGR CX4Fs before I bugger off.

--Geoff

I'd love to read about your preferences mate.

[dantan]

.

Edited by dantan, 22 July 2010 - 12:56 PM.

[Drizt]

(_*_), on Jul 21 2010, 02:49 PM, said:

Be genuinely interested to hear anyones thoughts on your GTG Drizzle, be sure to post yourself and get others to do the same.

You have to be a logged in member but some people put down their thoughts here -> http://www.stereo.ne...-to-use-is-sort

It was only a casual gtg and no proper objective comparisons were done.  But it makes for interesting reading.


Then there is the serious bit of kit, the Anthem.  Anyone who knows LuckyDog knows that his system is extremely hardcore (mostly 2ch) with some very exotic gear.   He has just replaced his 2ch preamp with the Anthem pre.  He is even running his very high end TT through it -> http://www.stereo.ne...ll=1#post401700

I value LD's opinion very highly, so thats a big win for it being possible to use HT gear in a high end 2ch rig.   Yes the Anthem is expensive but it does a lot for the money.  Especially when you compare it to a regular 2ch pre on a feature per dollar basis

[Gutty]

Ta mate

[Drizt]

(_*_), on Aug 19 2010, 03:46 PM, said:

Ta mate

No problem.

[Drizt]

hired goon, on Jul 21 2010, 08:50 PM, said:

G'day,


I've got a Stello DP200 preamp/DAC, an ME15 preamp, and a Rotel RSP-1068 AV pre/pro ... maybe it's time I give 'em all a comparison through the SGR CX4Fs before I bugger off.

--Geoff

Hi HG,

Did you ever get around to giving this a go ?

[Mining Man]

A straight $ vs $ comparison isn't easy, or fair. Economies of scale have enabled some pretty good digital technology to be cheaply available to the consumer, bundled in feature rich packages that do more than just play a CD. Entry level analogue systems are still struggling at this lower price point to minimise noise in, and degradation of, the signal path which is the whole advantage of digital in the first place.

But increase the $ in play, and analogue starts to make sense.


From my own personal experience, it took some serious dollars to better a transport bitstreaming to a Denon 4308. But a dedicated CD player and 2 channel pre, once a certain price point was reached (about 1.5 - 2 times the Denon), was easily better. I thought it would take some topping, but about the same ratio again spent on a pure analogue front end (TT & phono pre) vs the CD player, achieved about the same relative performance increase.


Is the performance gap narrowing? At different price points, I think it's a different story. At around the $2-3k mark, AVRs are really doing a pretty amazing job. And the CD / integrated combos I've heard in that price range are struggling. Not to stay ahead, but even keep up. Double the money and it's a lot closer.

I haven't heard any $6k+ AVR's. But they've got some serious ground to make up to keep up with analogue gear at that price point.


(Another point to consider, is the cost of upgrading superceded digital technology. I expect my analogue gear to be kicking along in another 10 years minimum. I'll probably have upgraded the AVR 3 times by then, and spent close to the same if not more. Hell, I'm on my 4th AVR now in just 8 years.)

[POV]

Mining Man, on Sep 24 2010, 10:55 PM, said:

A straight $ vs $ comparison isn't easy, or fair. Economies of scale have enabled some pretty good digital technology to be cheaply available to the consumer, bundled in feature rich packages that do more than just play a CD. Entry level analogue systems are still struggling at this lower price point to minimise noise in, and degradation of, the signal path which is the whole advantage of digital in the first place.

But increase the $ in play, and analogue starts to make sense.


From my own personal experience, it took some serious dollars to better a transport bitstreaming to a Denon 4308. But a dedicated CD player and 2 channel pre, once a certain price point was reached (about 1.5 - 2 times the Denon), was easily better. I thought it would take some topping, but about the same ratio again spent on a pure analogue front end (TT & phono pre) vs the CD player, achieved about the same relative performance increase.


Is the performance gap narrowing? At different price points, I think it's a different story. At around the $2-3k mark, AVRs are really doing a pretty amazing job. And the CD / integrated combos I've heard in that price range are struggling. Not to stay ahead, but even keep up. Double the money and it's a lot closer.

I haven't heard any $6k+ AVR's. But they've got some serious ground to make up to keep up with analogue gear at that price point.


(Another point to consider, is the cost of upgrading superceded digital technology. I expect my analogue gear to be kicking along in another 10 years minimum. I'll probably have upgraded the AVR 3 times by then, and spent close to the same if not more. Hell, I'm on my 4th AVR now in just 8 years.)

Thanks for adding your thoughts.....had forgotten about this thread.  Since taking my 2 channel pre out of the system I have really noticed the performance drop for 2 channel!!  Interestingly the difference is definately more noticeable than when the 2 channel pre (s) came into the system.  I guess this is a two fold explenation...........firstly my listening experience has grown appreciablly and I now understand much better what I'm listening for.  Secondly my Aslans are MUCH more revealing of component changes than my previous speakers.  Really can't wait for the new integrated to arrive  

[:)]

POV, on Sep 25 2010, 09:21 AM, said:

Thanks for adding your thoughts.....had forgotten about this thread.  Since taking my 2 channel pre out of the system I have really noticed the performance drop for 2 channel!!  Interestingly the difference is definately more noticeable than when the 2 channel pre (s) came into the system.  I guess this is a two fold explenation...........firstly my listening experience has grown appreciablly and I now understand much better what I'm listening for.  Secondly my Aslans are MUCH more revealing of component changes than my previous speakers.  Really can't wait for the new integrated to arrive  

As they say you never quite miss something till it's gone hey  

Oh well not long hopefully that gap will be filled, make no mistake integrateds can have pretty decent pre stages too so something will no doubt be very happy with am sure

[jliang70]

Mining Man, on Sep 24 2010, 11:25 PM, said:

A straight $ vs $ comparison isn't easy, or fair. Economies of scale have enabled some pretty good digital technology to be cheaply available to the consumer, bundled in feature rich packages that do more than just play a CD. Entry level analogue systems are still struggling at this lower price point to minimise noise in, and degradation of, the signal path which is the whole advantage of digital in the first place.

But increase the $ in play, and analogue starts to make sense.


From my own personal experience, it took some serious dollars to better a transport bitstreaming to a Denon 4308. But a dedicated CD player and 2 channel pre, once a certain price point was reached (about 1.5 - 2 times the Denon), was easily better. I thought it would take some topping, but about the same ratio again spent on a pure analogue front end (TT & phono pre) vs the CD player, achieved about the same relative performance increase.


Is the performance gap narrowing? At different price points, I think it's a different story. At around the $2-3k mark, AVRs are really doing a pretty amazing job. And the CD / integrated combos I've heard in that price range are struggling. Not to stay ahead, but even keep up. Double the money and it's a lot closer.

I haven't heard any $6k+ AVR's. But they've got some serious ground to make up to keep up with analogue gear at that price point.


(Another point to consider, is the cost of upgrading superceded digital technology. I expect my analogue gear to be kicking along in another 10 years minimum. I'll probably have upgraded the AVR 3 times by then, and spent close to the same if not more. Hell, I'm on my 4th AVR now in just 8 years.)

From my own experience I don't think you need to spend 1.5 - 2 times the money on pre, power-amp, dac and transport to better the performance of Denon AVR.  Internet has provide us as consumer a wide range of products at very good price.  I can easily picked out components at the same price as Denon and outperform it as a two channel system.  For 2-3k  I can pick up a good DAC and transport and an integrated amp that will easily outperform a 2k AVR with similar components. It really will come down to how you spend your dollar.  There are a lot of bargain out there mainly from less established small companies base in China, Taiwan and Hongkong and internet allowed these companies to market their product to customers world wide.   If you stick with the name brands what you are saying it is true but consider what is outside of that small circle of established companies the picture is different.

Edited by jliang70, 25 September 2010 - 02:44 PM.

[kajak12]

MACCA350, on Jul 21 2010, 03:49 PM, said:

D

As thoughts meander......
You can get excellent clarity, focus and envelopment out of a set of $500 speakers and a meager AVR if the room is treated properly, in fact based on those qualities it could put to shame many multi thousand dollar systems setup in acoustically poor or poorly/untreated rooms(remember I'm not talking about response or dynamics here). I've heard a set of $75ea Wharfedale bookshelves driven by an old 2xxx series Denon avr in a properly treated room that would floor many audiophiles.



Cheers

i must hear a $75 wharffedale bookshleves and a denon avr  cant imagine it doing any justice to music at all.

[Mining Man]

jliang70, on Sep 25 2010, 02:16 PM, said:

From my own experience I don't think you need to spend 1.5 - 2 times the money on pre, power-amp, dac and transport to better the performance of Denon AVR.  Internet has provide us as consumer a wide range of products at very good price.  I can easily picked out components at the same price as Denon and outperform it as a two channel system.  For 2-3k  I can pick up a good DAC and transport and an integrated amp that will easily outperform a 2k AVR with similar components. It really will come down to how you spend your dollar.  There are a lot of bargain out there mainly from less established small companies base in China, Taiwan and Hongkong and internet allowed these companies to market their product to customers world wide.   If you stick with the name brands what you are saying it is true but consider what is outside of that small circle of established companies the picture is different.

I'm sure you're right.

But for some, the extra $$ on a brand that can be seen, touched and heard in a local bricks and mortar store with warranty assurance is worth it. Neither solution is one size fits all. Although I appreciate this forum as a place to learn of these other less explored options.


In the end, right is what makes you happy.

[Mining Man]

kajak12, on Sep 25 2010, 11:34 PM, said:

i must hear a $75 wharffedale bookshleves and a denon avr  cant imagine it doing any justice to music at all.

That's quite funny when read in context with your signature immediately below it.  

[jliang70]

Mining Man, on Sep 26 2010, 12:51 AM, said:

I'm sure you're right.

But for some, the extra $$ on a brand that can be seen, touched and heard in a local bricks and mortar store with warranty assurance is worth it. Neither solution is one size fits all. Although I appreciate this forum as a place to learn of these other less explored options.


In the end, right is what makes you happy.

You can also get almost unknow brand like ML's DAC for around $1500 with local warranty and a good local made amps like those from Weston Acoustic for less than $1500.  As good as some of the $2000 AVRs are they are still some way behind what people can get on a two channel system of similar dollars. I would say even without chinese made products sourced from China, Hongkong or Taiwan there are enough good products here made locally to ensure there are still gaps between dedicated two channel system and an HT system.

Edited by jliang70, 26 September 2010 - 01:19 AM.

[gone_bush]

Mining Man, on Sep 25 2010, 11:51 PM, said:

I'm sure you're right.

But for some, the extra $$ on a brand that can be seen, touched and heard in a local bricks and mortar store with warranty assurance is worth it. Neither solution is one size fits all. Although I appreciate this forum as a place to learn of these other less explored options.

In the end, right is what makes you happy.

Amen!

[MACCA350]

kajak12, on Sep 25 2010, 11:34 PM, said:

i must hear a $75 wharffedale bookshleves and a denon avr  cant imagine it doing any justice to music at all.

Nice way to pick the cheese out of the salad   I thought I defined the context of that statement pretty well

cheers

[adwaski]

Drizt, on Aug 19 2010, 03:44 PM, said:

You have to be a logged in member but some people put down their thoughts here -> http://www.stereo.ne...-to-use-is-sort

It was only a casual gtg and no proper objective comparisons were done.  But it makes for interesting reading.


Then there is the serious bit of kit, the Anthem.  Anyone who knows LuckyDog knows that his system is extremely hardcore (mostly 2ch) with some very exotic gear.   He has just replaced his 2ch preamp with the Anthem pre.  He is even running his very high end TT through it -> http://www.stereo.ne...ll=1#post401700

I value LD's opinion very highly, so thats a big win for it being possible to use HT gear in a high end 2ch rig.   Yes the Anthem is expensive but it does a lot for the money.  Especially when you compare it to a regular 2ch pre on a feature per dollar basis

I used to have a musical fidelity pre running into a rotel 1080 power amp with a meridian 508.24 as the source and b&w 805s for speakers. I have now gone down the HT road with a cary cinema11a and an oppo 83 as the source with the rest remaining and boy does it sound damn good in 2ch. I have more detail with the cary than I did with the musical and the imaging has become more defined. I know a proper 2ch rig will always win in the end but the gap is getting closer.  

[jliang70]

adwaski, on Sep 27 2010, 12:25 AM, said:

I used to have a musical fidelity pre running into a rotel 1080 power amp with a meridian 508.24 as the source and b&w 805s for speakers. I have now gone down the HT road with a cary cinema11a and an oppo 83 as the source with the rest remaining and boy does it sound damn good in 2ch. I have more detail with the cary than I did with the musical and the imaging has become more defined. I know a proper 2ch rig will always win in the end but the gap is getting closer.

Is your Oppo 83 the stock version or the modified version ?

[:)]

adwaski, on Sep 26 2010, 11:25 PM, said:

I used to have a musical fidelity pre running into a rotel 1080 power amp with a meridian 508.24 as the source and b&w 805s for speakers. I have now gone down the HT road with a cary cinema11a and an oppo 83 as the source with the rest remaining and boy does it sound damn good in 2ch. I have more detail with the cary than I did with the musical and the imaging has become more defined. I know a proper 2ch rig will always win in the end but the gap is getting closer.  

dont know what musical fidelity pre you were running, but when I compared the cary vs my musical fidelity a5cr pre the cary was an easy beat. I posted about my comparisons here some place. My conclusions in a different context no doubt, run dedicated 2ch source in the a5 cd and a sony scd-xa 9000es player plus a5cr power. and the mf pre particularly shines in that combination. yeah I too noted no doubt the cary very decent for 2ch but I'd still go the 2ch pure analog pre over that one and cary do infact make some very decent 2ch analog tube pres with ht bypass and something most definitely suggest any one considering to check out.

To be perfectly honest at the time I had the denon 4308 and believe it or not in my context and I'd actually take that over the cary any day for a whole host of reasons ! though appreciate fully well if someone else might consider otherwise

[:)]

MACCA350, on Sep 26 2010, 05:15 PM, said:

Nice way to pick the cheese out of the salad   I thought I defined the context of that statement pretty well

cheers

depends what cheese we're talking and in what salad doesnt it hehe

some people dont even like cheese, come to think of it some people probably dont even like salad either  

[Mining Man]

:), on Sep 27 2010, 06:54 AM, said:

depends what cheese we're talking and in what salad doesnt it hehe

some people dont even like cheese, come to think of it some people probably dont even like salad either  

Salad dodgers!!  

[Gutty]

Mining Man, on Sep 27 2010, 09:30 AM, said:

Salad dodgers!!

You rang ?

[swingdoctor]

This is what someone explained to me in simple terms. You can buy much better quality "channels" for a pair then you can for 5 or 7 given the same amount of money. And generally speaking I think this hold true all the time. The only time I feel my AVR sounds better then my 2 channel, is when I have a crappy recording and my 2 channel shows it warts and all while my AVR kinda "hides" it. But when its a good quality recording there is no comparison. Eventhough I run my front 2 speakers though my dedicated 2 channel amp via my AVR. It still sounds better when it runs through my 2 channel only.

[adwaski]

jliang70, on Sep 27 2010, 12:21 AM, said:

Is your Oppo 83 the stock version or the modified version ?

Mine is the stock version.

[adwaski]

:), on Sep 27 2010, 06:52 AM, said:

dont know what musical fidelity pre you were running, but when I compared the cary vs my musical fidelity a5cr pre the cary was an easy beat. I posted about my comparisons here some place. My conclusions in a different context no doubt, run dedicated 2ch source in the a5 cd and a sony scd-xa 9000es player plus a5cr power. and the mf pre particularly shines in that combination. yeah I too noted no doubt the cary very decent for 2ch but I'd still go the 2ch pure analog pre over that one and cary do infact make some very decent 2ch analog tube pres with ht bypass and something most definitely suggest any one considering to check out.

To be perfectly honest at the time I had the denon 4308 and believe it or not in my context and I'd actually take that over the cary any day for a whole host of reasons ! though appreciate fully well if someone else might consider otherwise

I was running the tube output stage Xpre which is no big hitter by any means. I also had an a100x intergrated which I loved  
I'll hate to admit it but I used to own a denon 3805 which replaced a marantz 5300. I preferred the marantz for overall sound quality and the denon was nearly twice the price. More musical compared to the denon as I find denon very dry and clinical and on the bright side. It's all personal at the end of the day and system dependent including your room acoustics. I'll never consider denon again. Had it for a couple of years though!