192 replies to this topic

[El Saif]

I listed the link http://www.wewantdigitalradio.com.au/ as it is part of a campaign by CRA to extend DAB+ to regional areas.

It is relevant to Canberra DAB+ Trial as at the moment, because it is only a trial.

I modified the pro-forma e-mail to my local federal MP to ask that the trial end and that DAB+ become permanent. I also pointed out that Sydney receives 42 DAB+ stations and Canberra only receives 18 DAB+ stations.

Both the FM and AM bands are full in major cities like Sydney. DAB+ offers the possibility of far more stations than the combined number of current AM and FM stations.

Currently, the intention of providing more choice of stations through DAB+ is being subverted through the existing commercial stations repeating their AM and FM broadcasts on DAB+. Commercial radio operators are also squatting on DAB+ airspace by broadcasting only from a looped tape on many DAB+ stations. In Canberra, we also have one station called FEC (Forward Error Correction) that simply repeats an existing FM and DAB+ station!

[newtaste]

Alan, 801 AM Gosford (Central Coast) is Rete Italia, not 'Racing Radio' as you infer. http://italianmedia....-italia/tune-in

[alanh]

newtaste,
Thanks, there is a variety of uses for High Powered Open Narrowcasting. So small groups such as individual language broadcasters, horse racing followers etc can get a broadcast licence where they do not have to provide a comprehensive service.

Alanh

[GoForMoe]

El Saif, on 23 March 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

Commercial radio operators are also squatting on DAB+ airspace by broadcasting only from a looped tape on many DAB+ stations. In Canberra, we also have one station called FEC (Forward Error Correction) that simply repeats an existing FM and DAB+ station!

That may be a useful test. I've linked in the past to software that with some PC receivers list the FEC information and found that community stations in Melbourne are using modified FEC to fit more stations within the spectrum available at 64kbps.

I am very interested to know what impact that has on reception - see if you can tune into the FEC Test station in a fringe reception area better or worse than elsewhere.

[Ron12]

Hi Everyone,

The number of Sunshine Coast stations depends on whereabouts on the Sunshine Coast you are.  In the southern part, you can receive stations from Nambour (3 commercials, 3 ABC & 2 community stations) + ABC 612 & Radio National from Brisbane, News Radio, unless it's from Brisbane.

Further north you can also receive stations from Gympie (4 ABC, 1 AM & 1 FM commercial & 0 wide area community stations).  There is also an AM ABC station that is low power and has a small reception area and Rhema FM which doesn't make it to the Sunshine Coast.

Noosa Heads, which is in the Sunshine Coast, receives stations from both Nambour and Gympie, and must be in both markets, because it has FM translators for commercial stations from both markets (1 translator for a Nambour commercial station and 2 for the Gympie commercial stations).  The ACMA's Radio and Televison Broadcasting Stations also lists frequencies for translators for the other two Nambour commercial stations since at least 2005, but they weren't on the air then nor as of January this year, so go figure.

The point is that there are a lot of regional places in overlapping markets.  If DAB+ were introduced there, either the original multiplexes would have to replicate this reception in overlapping markets, or the overlapping markets would need their own translators in which the multiplex contains commercial and community stations from all overlapping markets.

Edited by Ron12, 23 March 2013 - 04:53 PM.

[El Saif]

GoForMoe, on 23 March 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

That may be a useful test. I've linked in the past to software that with some PC receivers list the FEC information and found that community stations in Melbourne are using modified FEC to fit more stations within the spectrum available at 64kbps.

I am very interested to know what impact that has on reception - see if you can tune into the FEC Test station in a fringe reception area better or worse than elsewhere.

I checked my battery powered Aldi DAB+ receiver this morning with the whip antenna fully extended.

I live about 10 km from Telstra Tower without a LOS.

2CA BER 5-13

FEC BER 9-17
106.3FM BER 3-6

The FEC station repeats 106.3FM.

I hope this helps.

[MLXXX]

Malich, on 23 March 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

---

edit: damn, another intelligent contributor gone. I like DTVForum, and even with AlanH's continuous poor-faith contributions I still prefer it to any of the alternatives. I'm really going to have to consider my own ongoing participation carefully though, as there are a dwindling number of thinking people to discuss things with...

I guess AlanH will use the rash of posters leaving as "evidence" that his claim they were all DrP was true and claim that they've really been banned for that, not left of their own accord...

Thanks for your kind comment, Malich.

Regarding your last sentence, I am making this isolated post to avoid any incorrect inferences being drawn from my cessation in forum participation yesterday morning. That was my own choice, unprompted by moderators; and I am not under any suspension, or permanent ban.

Cheers,
MLXXX

Edit 1 (6/4/13): My signature block (see post #174 above) has now been updated with the following words: "Edit: As at 5/4/2013, the senior member concerned has not posted for 11 days. I am interpreting this as a positive sign, and am provisionally renewing my participation in the forum.".

Edit 2 (17/4/13): Alanh ceased posting with this post on 25 March 2013:

alanh, on 25 March 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

I was in Brisbane recently where SBS36 had unreliable reception, the reception of 31Digital CTQ38 was non existent. Which proves what I said above, The coverage area of 31 digital is not the same.

He then resumed 22 days later with this post:

alanh, on 16 April 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

I have not been suspended or banned. I decided to not post.

This piece of history could not be ignored,.

...

My signature block has now been updated with the following words: "Edit: The senior member concerned ceased posting on 25/3/2013 and resumed on 16/4/2013. I took the cessation of posting as a positive sign and provisionally resumed my own participation on 6/4/2013.".

Edit 3 (19/4/13): My signature block now reads as follows:

Assumption: H264 decompressors can decompress H265 signals but will not produce the depth infomration
Exaggerated claim: FM radio does not gradually degrade, it has a cliff like digital

For other surprising assumptions/claims by prolific DTV Forum poster, alanh, see: alanh's 'facts'

Edit 4 (11/5/13). Alanh has been relatively quiet. My signature block has been slightly reworded so as to read:

For the technically inclined...
Assumption: H264 decompressors can decompress H265 signals but will not produce the depth infomration
Exaggerated claim: FM radio does not gradually degrade, it has a cliff like digital
Other surprising assumptions/claims by prolific DTV Forum poster, alanh, may be found at: alanh's 'facts'

Edited by MLXXX, 11 May 2013 - 09:45 AM.

[GoForMoe]

El Saif, on 24 March 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

I hope this helps.

Thanks. That said it's a bit outside my area of knowledge in interpreting it, all I know is that the FEC testing is likely to be trying to find if it's possible to squeeze more channels into a DAB+ multiplex and deliver the coverage needed, so it's not the useless simulcast it might appear to be.

[El Saif]

Digital Penetration, on 27 February 2013 - 07:16 PM, said:

I've also got enough DAB+ radios atm, so not using the KB radio software doesn't worry me. Pity it won't work with that DABplayer you pointed out a couple of months ago (crashes with "Cannot load mpegaudio filter"). My ezcap stick DOES work with DABplayer. Both use the 2832 chip.

If you pick up the April 2013 issue of Silicon Chip. they have an article about using those TV/FM/AM/DAB+ dongles, including the KB dongle. The May 2013 issue of Silicon Chip will include the second part of the article.

[El Saif]

Today, I sent an e-mail to the Canberra Times newspaper asking that DAB+ broadcasts be shown on the list of radio stations broadcasting to the Canberra area in the weekly Guide.

It is now almost three years since the first DAB+ broadcast in Canberra.

[GoForMoe]

The equivalent in the Green Guide of The Age is just a small note saying that all stations were on digital except for the few sub-metro community stations they list. Of course that's not strictly true as there's a few stations that don't simulcast on digital and ones with opt outs, but if a small box of text is all you get from the full service in Melbourne, I wouldn't hold your breath for extra in the Canberra Times.

Edit: Even that mention is gone in the Green Guide now, so no mention at all of digital.

Edited by GoForMoe, 11 April 2013 - 01:35 PM.

[El Saif]

Today is the big schedule change for SBS Radio. They claim that it is the biggest change for 14 years.

As far as Canberra is concerned, we miss out on SBS Radio 3 on DAB+ Radio. The bigger cities are now receiving SBS Radio 3 on DAB+ Radio. Canberra listeners can hear SBS Radio 3 on DTV.

There are many mistakes on the SBS website. Indonesian was broadcast today to Canberra on SBS Radio 2 on DAB+ Radio, though the schedule on the SBS website show no Indonesian on DAB+ Radio at all to Canberra.

[El Saif]

SBS has now corrected their website after I sent them an e-mail.

According to the revised website, Indonesian is now broadcast to Canberra on SBS Radio 2 on DAB+ on Monday, Wednesday, Friday and Sunday at 3pm.

Canberra listeners can also hear SBS Radio 2 on DTV.

[GlennP]

Comercial Radio Australia have been given 7 DAB+ test licences for the surrounding Canberra area, that I assume were used during the last week?
http://web.acma.gov....ENCE_NO=1962102

Maybe with all this current strong push for DAB+ digital radio in regional Australia, the Government/ACMA have asked them to prove, what it's going to take to get full, good coverage of a regional area using DAB+. So they've given them all these test sites/licences, & CRA will use any combination, or all of them to achieve it.
The Canberra radio licence area is a strange shape, but overall quite small in square km, compared with the majority of other regional radio markets/areas around the country.

Lets say, it only takes them using 5 of those sites + the main Black Mountain site for good coverage. That IMO takes away any cost effectiveness of using DAB+ over DRM/DRM+, (other than CRA gaining free VHF Band 3 spectrum).

If they need 6 sites to cover this small area, how many sites will be needed to cover larger (much larger, in many places), regional radio areas using DAB+?

I don't think the Government has forgotten about regional digital radio. I think they're waiting for more DRM development, (DRM+ broadcasts are just starting to come on line & many more DRM receivers are in the planning), & also waiting to see which way the rest of the world jumps. Most seem to be going the DRM platform, even some of the European countries that have had DAB for years, are now using/planning to use DRM as supplementary digital radio to DAB.

If it was so suitable, & a no brainer decision to use DAB+ regionally around Australia, I think the Government would've done it a long time ago, & rollout would now be well on the way. The final decision & announcement for regional digital radio was supposed to be early last year, after all.

ACMA don't want to use DAB+ regionally, & at the investigation stage, the Government couldn't find a clear winner, between DAB+ & DRM, so left it for more investigation. At the time DRM+ was still just a theory, but they were leaning more towards DRM use. I'd say DRM/DRM+ is a clear winner now, & maybe the Government want CRA to prove otherwise?

My thoughts are, if CRA can't cover the Canberra licence with Black Mountain & 2 other sites, (3 at most), DAB+ use regionally is dead in the water & won't happen, with CRA being told go back to the drawing board & have another go.

[GoForMoe]

If they weren't paranoid about out of area reception, surely just increasing the power would achieve far more than all these smaller sites.

I wouldn't get too excited about the potential for DRM. The best we can hope for is the government allowing DAB+ and not providing any funding for it, hoping that it isn't a burden on the ABC if they are dragged along.

If DRM(+) was being considered seriously then they would be testing that as well, we knew from the moment that only 14Mhz was assigned to DAB+ that we couldn't do a regional rollout effectively.

One of the things to test if they have any hope of regional use of DAB would be the viability of a SFN for the ABC/SBS multiplex.

[GlennP]

CRA aren't interested in DRM because,
1) They won't get control of free spectrum.
2)The individual stations will get & control their own DRM spectrum, just like they currently do with AM & FM.

DAB+ get's CRA free spectrum, they control the licences & all that use it. Even though most/all stations are shareholders of the transmission company, CRA are the controlling entity of it, & have a far greater income stream from it, over what they have now with AM/FM, & if DRM/DRM+ was used.

If individual stations control their own destiny, CRA is still only a representative body, with minimal income streams. AFAIK, only membership fees to the "club".

Money, free spectrum & control are all DAB+ is about for CRA. Unfortunately ABC & SBS are only along for the ride.

[El Saif]

GlenP,

I take issue with the comments that:

1. CRA is not interested in DAB+ in regional areas; and

2. ABC & SBS are only along for the ride.

The CRA is interested in DAB+ in regional areas, hence their publicity campaign for the Federal government to pay for DAB+ transmission facilities in the regions.

The ABC and the SBS are seriously interested in DAB+ as a vehicle to reach a larger audience by providing broadcasts through a large number of stations to small discrete audiences. SBS has recently started SBS3 on DAB+ and DTV to reach Australia wide language groups of < 1,500 people. Currently, there are 19 ABC and SBS DAB+ stations broadcasting in Sydney. The are seeking audience reach, not commercial profits, unlike the CRA.

_{702 ABC
ABC Classic
ABC Country
ABC Dig Music
ABC Extra
ABC Grandstand
ABC Jazz
ABCNewsRadio
ABCRadioNational
SBS Chill
SBS Eurovision
SBS Pop Araby
SBS Pop Asia
SBS Pop Desi
SBS Radio 1
SBS Radio 2
SBS Radio 3
triple j
triplejUnearthed}

[GlennP]

El Saif,

I never said CRA weren't interested in DAB+ in regional areas, that's all they're interested in. DAB+ gives them the most control, free spectrum & the most money/revenue.
I said they weren't interested in DRM & DRM+. Which is a totally different sort of digital radio platform/transmission mode. Like FM is to AM.

If regional stations used DRM, each station would own & control their own transmitters & spectrum space, just like they do now with AM & FM. CRA would have no control over the transmissions, they would only continue to be a representative organisation, (just like the NRMA is to motoring).
Using DAB+ means, CRA hold the licences, & control each transmission company for commercial & community radio DAB+ transmission, (just like they do now in metro areas).

CRA fully own & control the Canberra DAB+ spectrum & transmitter that you're currently listening to. The ABC & SBS don't have any control over it, they just use space on the multiplex.
This will continue regionally if DAB+ is used, CRA will control it, not the ABC or SBS.

CRA helped develop the + part of DAB (which was developed in the late 1980's, & in use since 1995 in Europe. DAB is old technology, the + is a recent add on, to improve compression rates & error correction).
CRA were the ones who originally pushed DAB+ use in Australia & are still pushing it, because of their personal (corporate) interests.

Australia has the highest power DAB+ transmitters in the world, & still can't cover the metro licence areas properly. How do they intend covering regional areas, 3, 4, 5+ times the size, using DAB+?

The reason we need such high power levels, is that DAB+ isn't suitable for our large expanses, it's good in Europe where they have high population density.
A DAB transmitter, with the same power of the Canberra DAB+ transmitter, could broadcast to Greater London & then some, resulting in covering a population of over 8.2 Million people, yet Canberra DAB+ covers only a population of around 380,000. Efficiency & any costs savings go out the window, using DAB+ here.

I know exactly what the ABC & SBS broadcast, I can receive & listen to Sydney DAB+ digital radio.

Commercial radio (through CRA) get 2 DAB+ transmitters in Sydney, Melbourne & Brisbane. The ABC & SBS get 1 DAB+ transmitter to share in each capital city, effectively as a present.
CRA are running the digital radio show, & it'd be unfair with the ABC & SBS getting left behind if they weren't given something.
The ABC & SBS never went looking for DAB+ digital radio, it was CRA who initialised the push. ABC & SBS just make the best of what they're given, & if you're given it, well why not use it. Their digital radio strategies have come out of what they were given, not what they developed/pushed for.

Also don't hold your breath, for regional areas to ever get the full suite of ABC & SBS stations that the Metro areas do, if DAB+ is used regionally. There's not enough spectrum (DAB+ channels), to go around the country.
Newcastle & Canberra may get 1 commercial & 1 ABC/SBS DAB+ transmitter (may being the operative word).
Just about everywhere else will only get 1 DAB+ transmitter/channel, to share between commercial, community, ABC & SBS stations, (just like you have now). There's not enough commercial/community stations in regional areas to have 1 DAB+ transmitter/channel devoted to commercial radio & a second one to the ABC/SBS.

If Newcastle only gets 1 DAB+ channel, they'll have no more digital stations, than they currently have AM/FM stations, (no extra commercial stations & no extra ABC/SBS stations, over the 5 ABC AM/FM's & 1 SBS AM), the multiplex will be full.
Similarly, you in Canberra, likely won't get any/many more digital radio stations than you do now, unless bit-rates & sound quality drops significantly, to fit more in.