39 replies to this topic

[numbnuts]

Our organisation owns two analogue self-help TV retransmission facilities in southwest Queensland and we are now faced with the decision to upgrade these to digital (the networks won’t do them) or force the recipients of these services into utilising the Federal Governments subsidy scheme to access these transmissions over their satellite service to be launched later in the year, or miss out altogether.   I was after some help in answering the following questions:

1. The Feds quote an installation cost of approximately $600 with a subsidy being provided of $400.  Does this sound realistic for a satellite digital TV installation?  I guess it would depend on the size of the dish required etc.  The more remote you are the higher the installation costs would be as well.
2. I would assume that any device currently using a terrestrial digital tuner would be rendered useless e.g. PVR’s, Digital TV’s, Media Centres etc etc. They would all need a satellite tuner or be replaced?
3. I assume that each device would need it’s own tuner utilising one satellite dish?
4. Equipment using satellite tuners is unlikely to be available ‘off the shelf’ at your local Harvey Norman either – cost is likely to be high?
5. I have heard that current terrestrial digital transmissions are currently not yet at full power until the analogue signal is switched off.  Is this correct?  If it is the penetration of the digital signal is going to be a lot higher I guess.


Any assistance is appreciated.

[DrP]

2. I would assume that any device currently using a terrestrial digital tuner would be rendered useless e.g. PVR’s, Digital TV’s, Media Centres etc etc. They would all need a satellite tuner or be replaced?
They would not work with the satellite direct service and need to be replaced.

3. I assume that each device would need it’s own tuner utilising one satellite dish?
Depending upon the technical details of the service, which is yet to go into operation, it could be as simple as using a single output LNB into a splitter.  If it turns out that both horizontal and vertical transponders will be used you would then need a dual output LNB and a multiswitch (or multi-output LNB - there's a few ways to do it) but in any case only one dish per building would be required.  Each display etc would need its own receiver (4 TVs, 4 receivers) if they are to view different channels at the same time.

4. Equipment using satellite tuners is unlikely to be available ‘off the shelf’ at your local Harvey Norman either – cost is likely to be high?
Higher, but not necessarily 'high'.  At first glance you won't have much of a choice in the receiver anyway.  The government has set fairly strict guidelines and at the moment it looks like only UEC is involved.

5. I have heard that current terrestrial digital transmissions are currently not yet at full power until the analogue signal is switched off.  Is this correct?  If it is the penetration of the digital signal is going to be a lot higher I guess.
This is true in some cases where the digital service was causing problems for an adjacent analogue service but on the whole everything is operating at the normal power levels now.

[beeblebrox]

1. The Feds quote an installation cost of approximately $600 with a subsidy being provided of $400.  Does this sound realistic for a satellite digital TV installation?  I guess it would depend on the size of the dish required etc.  The more remote you are the higher the installation costs would be as well.

$600 is in my opinion a little on the light side but until they announce the how and what we're still in the dark.  $600 using decent components would be cheap for a new aurora install  which is what this system will be replacing.

2. I would assume that any device currently using a terrestrial digital tuner would be rendered useless e.g. PVR’s, Digital TV’s, Media Centres etc etc. They would all need a satellite tuner or be replaced?

Correct

3. I assume that each device would need it’s own tuner utilising one satellite dish?

Yes you could use one dish and a multiswitch (or maybe just a splitter depending on how the transponders pan out) to support multiple tv's

4. Equipment using satellite tuners is unlikely to be available ‘off the shelf’ at your local Harvey Norman either – cost is likely to be high?

The cost of a satellite box is in qty probably not much different to a terrestrial box and it would be likely if it was wide spread enough the hardly normals etc would probably start stocking them in some instances (ie if there's demand) but initially yes I would expect you would be paying a premium there.

5. I have heard that current terrestrial digital transmissions are currently not yet at full power until the analogue signal is switched off.  Is this correct?  If it is the penetration of the digital signal is going to be a lot higher I guess.

In some cases yes but I wouldn't bank on it for many areas.

[numbnuts]

Thank you both - that is good information.  

If anyone has anything else to add that would be great.

[numbnuts]

beeblebrox, on Apr 29 2010, 11:41 AM, said:

$600 is in my opinion a little on the light side but until they announce the how and what we're still in the dark.  $600 using decent components would be cheap for a new aurora install  which is what this system will be replacing.

beeblebrox - would the installation include the satellite set top box in that price or would that be on top of the dish, cabling and installation.  I assume that it would be extra for the STB.

[alanh]

numbnuts,
If an antenna installer measures you signal strength and can prove that you cannot receive satisfactory TV then you need an HD satellite TV receiver box. (For the VAST or GWN/WIN free to air satellite service). You will not need an ordinary set top because you cannot receive anything with it.

Note the satellite subsidy is only available where you either;
have an Aurora receiver now or
your current analog transmitters are funded by a community organisation such as a council. Do not buy one unless the analog change over is happening in your region. They will not back date claims.

For more information Go to the Geographic Viewers’ Forum,which is near the bottom of the main forum’s home page. Select your region and read the pinned post “Get the Best Reception”. Please post any further correspondence in that strand for all in your region to see. I will see it anyway. You could also search your location in that strand for others in your area.

Go to the end of the post for a link to out of area reception link.

AlanH

[dig2all]

communities with self help services can take digital tv from satellite, process the signal to digital terrestrial and transmit that to their community over normal antennas (maybe even the ones they already have for analogue) to deliver digital directly to those panel tv's and recorders etc.

input can be aurora, vast or a terrestrial transmitter that the gear can see.  as its usually on a hilltop, that can be quite a step away.

its that or dishes and vast receivers by every tv.

[ChaosMaster]

alanh, on Apr 29 2010, 08:05 PM, said:

numbnuts,

<This text was automatically generated by copy-and-paste XPress v2.3.1>

AlanH

ChaosMaster, on Apr 25 2010, 04:28 PM, said:

Alan, I must insist that you stop giving generic copy and paste answers to peoples' problems and actually read the specific post in question properly.

Need I say more...

alanh, if you had indeed read the above post in its entirety, you would have observed that 'numbnuts' is infact asking for information about upgrading the two self-help retransmission facilities owned by the company he represents, to digital, not about his own reception:

numbnuts, on Apr 29 2010, 10:58 AM, said:

Our organisation owns two analogue self-help TV retransmission facilities in southwest Queensland and we are now faced with the decision to upgrade these to digital (the networks won't do them) or force the recipients of these services into utilising the Federal Governments subsidy scheme to access these transmissions over their satellite service to be launched later in the year, or miss out altogether.

In addition, I implore you alanh, please do be cautious of anything you say here, because any decision made as a result of information here has the potential to impact a rather significant number of people, and not necessarily in a positive way, if the wrong decision is made.

Just my 2c on this:
If the ABC and SBS already broadcast digitally in the areas in question, any viewers that have already upgraded to digital would most likely appreciate the ability to keep using their existing Digital Terrestrial equipment to view the new services rather than having to purchase entirely new satellite equipment (and for every set-top box, an appropriate smartcard to access the service, by proving with data from an antenna installer that they have no usable digital terrestrial signal - this could be expensive for households not currently served by the existing 'Aurora' satellite service). If this is not the case...well I am not really qualified to comment any further.

Just another thing, also - are you able to tell us how the transmitters are currently fed with their input signal, as this may help in determining the best course of action for upgrade. If the analogue signals are currently off-air fed from network-owned transmitters (ie. 7QLD, WIN, SC10, etc.) that have been upgraded to digital, the process of upgrading should be comparatively simple, and the digital signals can most likely be fed into the system in a similar manner to the existing analogue services. If the current signals are sat-fed (ie. Imparja, SC7), however, the best course of action may be somewhat less clear, and will (most likely) have to involve the VAST service in some way (either Direct-to-Home Satellite for each household or re-encoded/remodulated terrestrially as dig2all suggested).

Cheers.

Edited by ChaosMaster, 29 April 2010 - 11:30 PM.

[numbnuts]

ChaosMaster, on Apr 29 2010, 10:24 PM, said:

Just my 2c on this:
If the ABC and SBS already broadcast digitally in the areas in question, any viewers that have already upgraded to digital would most likely appreciate the ability to keep using their existing Digital Terrestrial equipment to view the new services rather than having to purchase entirely new satellite equipment (and for every set-top box, an appropriate smartcard to access the service, by proving with data from an antenna installer that they have no usable digital terrestrial signal - this could be expensive for households not currently served by the existing 'Aurora' satellite service). If this is not the case...well I am not really qualified to comment any further.

Just another thing, also - are you able to tell us how the transmitters are currently fed with their input signal, as this may help in determining the best course of action for upgrade. If the analogue signals are currently off-air fed from network-owned transmitters (ie. 7QLD, WIN, SC10, etc.) that have been upgraded to digital, the process of upgrading should be comparatively simple, and the digital signals can most likely be fed into the system in a similar manner to the existing analogue services. If the current signals are sat-fed (ie. Imparja, SC7), however, the best course of action may be somewhat less clear, and will (most likely) have to involve the VAST service in some way (either Direct-to-Home Satellite for each household or re-encoded/remodulated terrestrially as dig2all suggested).

Cheers.

ChaosMaster, you make a very good point.  Both areas in question have ABC services currently (no SBS) - I am trying to find out if they have been upgraded to digital.  Assuming they had and I were a resident in the area I would be pretty pissed off having to discard my investment in terrestrial digital equipment and install satellite.  I am seriously leaning toward us upgrading our self-help facilities as this would be the easiest and least disruptive path to those people currently receiving the analogue signals.

In regards to your question.  I am not technically minded in the area of tv transmission so I don't know how the analogue transmissions are currently being made - I will endeavour to find out.  To go to digital from these locations I understand we will need to install a satellite dish and decoder at each location and then run the signal out over a digital transmitter.  Dunno if this helps.

Edited by numbnuts, 30 April 2010 - 11:43 AM.

[viewer]

alanh, on Apr 29 2010, 08:05 PM, said:

numbnuts,
Note the satellite subsidy is only available where you either;
have an Aurora receiver now or

AlanH

Wow..SUBSIDY !!!!!!!......great news for us present Aurora installations. Can you post the link to the Aurora subsidy for present users, as I use 2 UEC decoders in the house to watch different channels to each other, and both are fully registered cards.

[alanh]

Chaosmaster,
I can admit I am wrong, yes I missed the first section of this post.

numbnuts,
Firstly you need to read
Read the first post Get the Best Reception, Regional Queensland note the analog switch off date and the Transmitter list. Your transmitters should be listed. If they are in the Southern Inland then you are in the Remote area licence area. If you in the Darling Downs or Southern Downs then you will have to prove there is inadequate signals for your coverage area. See the last link in the post which is Out of Area Reception.

Secondly,
your licences for your analog transmitters are likely to be cancelled at the end of 2013.

Thirdly,
You are in the area covered by the VAST Northern licence area. You will receive the Qld ABC 4 or 5 services, SBS 3 services, Southern Cross Central(TEN) =51 complete with ONE HD, Southern Cross Seven HD, 61 and 62, along with Imparja HD, Imparja=81 and GO! along with a news channel with all commercial regional TV bulletins for Qld & NT.

To get all these programs you will either need 5 digital transmitters on each site or every TV needs a satellite receiver. You need to compare the cost of 5 digital transmitters compared to the cost of bulk buying an HD satellite receiver for each TV (Only one dish is required per building), dishes and installation. Remember that if you choose to go digital terrestrial, all TVs will have to either be digital or have a PVR or Set top box. Any of this equipment must be MPEG-4 capable, perferably DVB-T2 as well. Freeview specifies MPEG-4 The VAST specification includes MPEG-4 which is likely to be retransmitted in that form saving conversion to MPEG-2 at each transmitter site.

Fourthly,
You need to check with switchover@DBCDE.gov.au to ensure that the subsidy to convert to VAST applies to you and when satellite receiver purchases can start. This is because there will be no back dating of applications.

Fifthly,
If you go for individual satellite receivers then make sure the supplier guarantees that the receivers conform to these specifications. Despite what DrP says, I have contacted a satellite receiver importer who says these specifications apply to most HD satellite receivers.

Sixth
Read Digital Ready Website

Other comments
One dish can feed a pair of HD satellite receivers and they can select different programs at the same time. The transmissions are all on a single satellite, so only one dish is required. If an installation has multiple TV such as a motel, a Satellite Master Antenna TV systems are available so that each HD satellite receiver can select their own programs independently.

Satellite receivers come in their own stand alone box. The outputs are plugged into a TV, preferably using an HDMI connection or for old TVs the composite input. The Satellite receiver has a socket to which a cable is connected between it and the satellite dish. Each satellite dish can have two or four outputs. The 4 output type can feed 4 satellite receivers independently.

There are only a few places where the DTV transmitters are not at full power. This is to prevent interference to analog transmitters on the same channel within 400 km. A typical example is TEN Sydney (uses RF channel 11) for interference to CBN 11 analog Bathurst.

Since there will be other sites in your area similarly affected it would be worthwhile contacting the member for Maranoa,

Hon Bruce Scott MP,
Suite 2, Foodworks Centre
59 Condamine Street
Dalby Qld 4405

Postal Address:
PO Box 641
Dalby Qld 4405

Tel: (07) 4662 2715

AlanH

[ChaosMaster]

numbnuts, on Apr 30 2010, 11:41 AM, said:

To go to digital from these locations I understand we will need to install a satellite dish and decoder at each location and then run the signal out over a digital transmitter.

When you say you will need to install a satellite dish, do you mean you are not currently using one? If you are not currently using a satellite program source via Optus Aurora, but rather are obtaining source signals from a Network-owned terrestrial transmitter, then upgrading may (assuming, as mentioned above, that the Network site has already been converted) simply be a matter of installing/replacing/retuning terrestrial translator hardware. Much cheaper, simpler, and easier to set up and maintain than remodulating and re-encoding satellite services, and allows viewers to bypass VAST altogether. It also means that viewers will receive 'localised' versions of the channels rather than the generic satellite ones.

Regarding the comments about 'MPEG-4'* encoding made by alanh above, in the case of retransmitting VAST satellite programs - if compatibility with any existing terrestrial equipment is to be retained (assuming ABC digital is already present), then this is not an option. Terrestrial broadcasting in Australia currently uses MPEG-2 encoding exclusively, and most receiver hardware currently on the market cannot decode MPEG-4 broadcasts. If the VAST service is to be used as a program source to a terrestrial transmitter, the relevant channels must first be re-encoded to MPEG-2 before retransmission.

The use of MPEG-4 terrestrial broadcasting (which I am not even sure is actually legal in Australia at the moment) would require the purchase of entirely new set-top boxes for most viewers, and would most likely defeat the point of upgrading the self-help transmitters in the first place, as viewers would not be much better off than if they had to upgrade for Direct-to-Home Satellite reception.

Although the Free-to-Air broadcast industry consortium 'Freeview' specifies MPEG-4 compliance for its 'approved' boxes (to allow for the possibility of any future transmission upgrades), compliance is not mandatory, and most consumer Digital Terrestrial hardware sold to date in Australia is still strictly MPEG-2 only.

In addition, as far as I am aware, Standard Definition services must provide an audio service in 'MPEG Audio' format, with an optional Dolby Digital AC-3 stream for higher quality audio (which also supports multichannel (ie. Surround sound) audio if it is provided by the networks). High Definition services may have only the Dolby stream if desired.



*If you are not already aware, 'MPEG', 'MPEG-2' and 'MPEG-4' are ISO digital media encoding standards. MPEG (Motion Picture Experts Group) also happens to be the name of the ISO working group that develops these standards.

Edited by ChaosMaster, 01 May 2010 - 03:35 AM.

[alanh]

Chaosmaster,

MPEG-4 has been in the Australian Standard AS 4599.1-2007 Digital television - Terrestrial broadcasting - Characteristics of digital terrestrial television obviously for 3 years.
There are quite a few MPEG-4 capable receivers on the market now. All current Sony and Panasonic models. All Topfield PVRs to name a few. There are more. The problem is that most manufacturers will say they have a single antenna socket but not any real technical specifications such as DVB-T, DVB-T2, ASTC or ISTB_T, MPEG-4 and or MPEG-2.

I suggested that each house needs to buy a satellite dish because currently they are using terrestrial analog TV. The only dishes are at the transmitter site.

Now that 3-D demos are on, you cannot transmit 3-D without the use of MPEG-4 compression to reduce the data rate for a 1920 x 1080 x 25P images *1.5 for the depth.

At the start of this year the DBCDE had an enquiry into how to introduce DVB-T2 and MPEG-4 as part of the digital dividend. No published conclusion as yet.

We will have to wait until the 1st July this year to see what is being transmitted to Underbool and Ouyen NW Victoria, the first location for the Analog Switchoff.

The DBCDE has had an adviser in the Mildura region advising the community what to buy.

AlanH

[ChaosMaster]

alanh, on May 1 2010, 12:48 AM, said:

MPEG-4 has been in the Australian Standard AS 4599.1-2007 Digital television - Terrestrial broadcasting - Characteristics of digital terrestrial television obviously for 3 years.

Simply being standardised in an AS doesn't mean that it is currently legal to transmit in the format, as DrP and others have explained to you time and time again. The standards document is not law, nor is receiver compliance mandatory (this too has been repeatedly demonstrated to you).

alanh, on May 1 2010, 12:48 AM, said:

There are quite a few MPEG-4 capable receivers on the market now. All current Sony and Panasonic models. All Topfield PVRs to name a few. There are more. The problem is that most manufacturers will say they have a single antenna socket but not any real technical specifications such as DVB-T, DVB-T2, ASTC or ISTB_T, MPEG-4 and or MPEG-2.

Again, as mentioned repeatedly, just because international versions of these displays, from countries that use MPEG-4, are including support for it does not mean that the feature is enabled/present in the Australian version of all these products. And in any case, only the most recent displays/STBs, if any, would be likely to incorporate it. The few that do currently support it out of the box are truly a minority, as far as I am aware. If you recall, as I have previously mentioned, forum member and industry professional 'CloudyClouds' tested a number of recent models of Integrated Digital TV a few months back, and found that none support MPEG-4, despite your repeated cries that 'most new displays/STBs support MPEG-4'. The fact is this - most viewers do not currently own IDTVs, STBs or PVRs that are MPEG-4 capable.

alanh, on May 1 2010, 12:48 AM, said:

I suggested that each house needs to buy a satellite dish because currently they are using terrestrial analog TV. The only dishes are at the transmitter site.

This is a last resort option, and should only be considered if terrestrial re-transmission is an impractical option for the areas in question. If the ABC has already started digital services in the relevant area, and people have purchased nice shiny new STBs and Integrated Digital TVs to watch these services, it is a brave person that tells them that all this gear is suddenly obsolete and they need to invest in satellite hardware instead (as mentioned in posts above).

alanh, on May 1 2010, 12:48 AM, said:

Now that 3-D demos are on, you cannot transmit 3-D without the use of MPEG-4 compression to reduce the data rate for a 1920 x 1080 x 25P images *1.5 for the depth.

Please don't drag up this Sydney 3D trial (operative word!!!) rubbish here, we really don't want to make things anymore complicated than they must be.

alanh, on May 1 2010, 12:48 AM, said:

At the start of this year the DBCDE had an enquiry into how to introduce DVB-T2 and MPEG-4 as part of the digital dividend. No published conclusion as yet.

EXACTLY alanh!!! Which means we are not currently using it, nor will we be in the near future! How many times must this be explained to you, and by how many, before it finally (if ever) sinks in???



I would appreciate it if other forum members could please assist here, especially in such a critical thread as this, where the wrong advice being given may have serious consequences for a such a large number of people.

As for you, alanh - May I please make a few points clear:
You are not going to turn this thread into:
-Another accursed MPEG-4 debate.
-Another '3D' debate.
-Another DVB-T2 debate.
-Any other kind of debate you may be considering that I haven't thought of.

A forum member has asked for help with an issue that is of genuine concern to at least a couple of communities. To derail/troll this thread and further confuse unsuspecting members with more of the usual rubbish and barrow-pushing about irrelevant standards and such that the government has not even given the green light, is, to put it bluntly, just selfish.

End-of-story.

If I see another word in this thread on any of the aforementioned topics here, it's the moderators for you. And that's a promise.

I hope that is clear enough.  

Edited by ChaosMaster, 01 May 2010 - 03:41 AM.

[DrP]

alanh, on Apr 30 2010, 09:24 PM, said:

Fifthly,

Yeah right.  Show me a sat box that has a MHEG-5 stack etc etc.  So far the government has only approved a specific model of UEC receiver.  For people that do not know, when Aurora started up you had a choice of an approved UEC box or nothing and it remained that way for some time.  To purchase a card you had to prove ownership of an approved box (provide serial number etc).  If you couldn't, no card for you.

I expect that alanh will not be forthcoming with the above information instead he will declare that he is under an NDA and is therefore unable to reveal the specifics and that's assuming he responds with something meaningful at all.

The clear intention of the government's specification is to try to prevent the current 'free for all' that is Aurora where anyone can view anything with an appropriate dodgey card and that means they want to keep a strict lid on what receiver you can use for the new service.

Purchasing a receiver that isn't on the 'approved list' is IMO unwise, unless of course you have no intention of watching 'Aurora V2'.

Quote

There are only a few places where the DTV transmitters are not at full power. This is to prevent interference to analog transmitters on the same channel within 400 km. A typical example is TEN Sydney (uses RF channel 11) for interference to CBN 11 analog Bathurst.

Despite your rather exclusive statement, there are also TXes on low power to mitigate adjacent channel inteferrence.

Edited by DrP, 01 May 2010 - 05:30 AM.

[alanh]

DrP,
With the statement about power, I am trying to dispel the idea that ALL DTV transmitters will increase in power after the Analog Switch Off.
So if Numbnuts thinks that an increase in power will not require a solution to his satellite repeaters it will not help.

As for adjacent channel interference, I don't think so, you have TNQ33 (1.3 MW) on analog and TNQ32 (360 kW) on Digital and they are both on the same tower. Do you see any interference on analog?

As for the advice on other satellite receivers. I asked one of the importers who posts on this site. As far as serial numbers go you may be correct, however I agree that the Department should have used an Australian Standard like for terrestrial TV so all compliant receivers can be used. The thing you may not have considered is that the Department is only subsidising existing satellite viewers and those converting from a self help repeater. Nothing has been said about new satellite installations in remote areas. I assume no subsidy so can you buy your own which matches the published specifications, after all they do not mention the brand!???

AlanH

[DrP]

alanh, on May 1 2010, 01:10 PM, said:

DrP,
With the statement about power, I am trying to dispel the idea that ALL DTV transmitters will increase in power after the Analog Switch Off.
So if Numbnuts thinks that an increase in power will not require a solution to his satellite repeaters it will not help.

I think that statement was dispelled quite nicely by earlier posts that did not make additional inaccurate claims.

Quote

As for adjacent channel interference, I don't think so, you have TNQ33 (1.3 MW) on analog and TNQ32 (360 kW) on Digital and they are both on the same tower. Do you see any interference on analog?

All, some, none.  Look it up.

In the case you reference SC's digital service indeed did cause inteference issues with the analogue transmission.  To combat this a few steps were taken.  Transmission power was reduced until filtering could be put in place.  The filtering did not prove sufficiently effective so the transmission was offset.  This proved sufficient when power was returned to normal levels.  The plan, as relayed to me by people who know, was that if the filtering and offset was not effective the transmission would remain at reduced power.  The transmission remains offset to this date, something you will no doubt still argue because its not listed as offset in the infalliable ACMA transmitter list.

Quote

As for the advice on other satellite receivers. I asked one of the importers who posts on this site.

The importers I know are all hoping that the current situation that has evolved with Aurora will continue but all of them have accepted that this will probably not be the case and that the new service will be restricted as Aurora originally was.  They still live in hope as they had quite a market in selling 3rd party receivers for use with Austar and there is still quite a market selling receivers for the existing Aurora system but I fear its a forlorn hope.

Quote

As far as serial numbers go you may be correct, however I agree that the Department should have used an Australian Standard like for terrestrial TV so all compliant receivers can be used.

Who exactly are you agreeing with?  Me?  I haven't mentioned anything about an 'Australian Standard', not that the terrestrial standard is binding anyway - something that has been explained to you a considerable number of times.

Quote

The thing you may not have considered is that the Department is only subsidising existing satellite viewers and those converting from a self help repeater. Nothing has been said about new satellite installations in remote areas. I assume no subsidy so can you buy your own which matches the published specifications, after all they do not mention the brand!???

Australian government press release said:

Altec UEC will be the initial supplier and distributor of satellite set top boxes. The supplier will be informing antenna installers and satellite equipment suppliers in Mildura/Sunraysia about the availability of the new satellite service from today.

Subsidy has nothing to do with it.  There is only one receiver that has been deemed suitable at this point and it is a UEC.  In fact the precise model of UEC receiver has been named.  I am surprised that you have not been told this by one of your now famous insiders that insist on you signing NDAs all the time, especially considering that its public knowledge by way of official press releases.  To make things worse, as if that's actually possibly, the press release quote comes from one of the many documents that you have held up as flawed proof of your many claims.




Honestly alanh, why do you persist when it is abundantly clear that you really have no idea of what you are talking about.  Even a troll posts more useful information.

Edited by DrP, 01 May 2010 - 02:20 PM.

[alanh]

DrP,
So you agree with me about the power of most DTV stations.
As far as your transmitters go, your power is much greater than most main stations which are 200 kW digital UHF and 600 kW analog UHF.

There are many DTV transmitters with 125 kHz offsets are nowhere near 7 MHz or more. The filtering you talk of may be in the antenna combiner feeding the common UHF transmitting antenna. Close receiver may have needed attenuators to stop overload which will aggrevate interference due to intermodulation distortion.

Hills Industries has a contract for the Department for Mildura conversion.

Australian Standards can be made mandatory by the government if they wish. For example safety related standards have been made mandatory.

Receiver importers may not comply to the standards, but the transmission industry follow their standard.

Have you found the contract for Altec UEC Satellite receivers? A government press release does not cut it.

AlanH

[DrP]

alanh, on May 1 2010, 02:59 PM, said:

So you agree with me about the power of most DTV stations.

I think you have that slightly turned around, as usual.  Its traditional that the later people to post such information agree with the people that posted it ealier - ie, you agree with me and the others.  Thankyou for your agreeance on the obvious though - most transmissions are at normal levels now.

Quote

As far as your transmitters go, your power is much greater than most main stations which are 200 kW digital UHF and 600 kW analog UHF.

Irrelevant.

Quote

There are many DTV transmitters with 125 kHz offsets are nowhere near 7 MHz or more.

This makes no sense.

Quote

The filtering you talk of may be in the antenna combiner feeding the common UHF transmitting antenna. Close receiver may have needed attenuators to stop overload which will aggrevate interference due to intermodulation distortion.

Yes oh great master.  You are the only person here who has any knowledge of any technical issue.  I bow down to your superiority.  At least you appear to have finally accepted that the transmitter list is not infalliable.

Quote

Hills Industries has a contract for the Department for Mildura conversion.

Irrelevant.  The sat STBs are supplied by UEC.

Quote

Receiver importers may not comply to the standards, but the transmission industry follow their standard.

Absolutely.  Once people follow your advice and purchase a sat receiver for 'Aurora V2' (VAST) that does not appear on the approved list will you accept responsibility and offer to re-imburse them should it be discovered that the receiver can not be used for the intended purpose?

Quote

Australian Standards can be made mandatory by the government if they wish. For example safety related standards have been made mandatory.

Yet the terrestrial STB standard is in no way compulsory or binding.  What does that tell you?

Quote

Have you found the contract for Altec UEC Satellite receivers? A government press release does not cut it.

Oh my, you are a trollboy aren't you.  One day government press releases champion all and the next they don't cut it.  I'll toss this back at you repeatedly next time you pull up a government press release shall I?

Congratulations on ruining yet another thread by the way.

Edited by DrP, 01 May 2010 - 04:08 PM.

[viewer]

viewer, on Apr 30 2010, 04:40 PM, said:

Wow..SUBSIDY !!!!!!!......great news for us present Aurora installations. Can you post the link to the Aurora subsidy for present users, as I use 2 UEC decoders in the house to watch different channels to each other, and both are fully registered cards.

Cough cough...Sorry for the question again, but I must be looking in the wrong places, as I have not been able to see any mention of an Aurora swap over subsidy in the Departmental Media Releases so far.

Can some one link me to them...I already have glasses, but they aren't helping.


Thank you.

[alanh]

DrP,
With such high power in Mackay, overloaded receivers is far more likely and the signals will go further than what most high powered DTV transmitters will.

Quote

All, some, none. Look it up.

In the case you reference SC's digital service indeed did cause inteference issues with the analogue transmission. To combat this a few steps were taken. Transmission power was reduced until filtering could be put in place. The filtering did not prove sufficiently effective so the transmission was offset. This proved sufficient when power was returned to normal levels. The plan, as relayed to me by people who know, was that if the filtering and offset was not effective the transmission would remain at reduced power

So the power has been reduced to 200 kWerp?!

The frequency offset of 125 kHz is to minimise the visibility of the digital dots on an analog signal so the power levels can be higher without consumer complaint. They are not irrelevant. The offsets have been used instead of selecting another channel. All Nine network stations in capital cities have a 125 kHz offset and have had it from the start for the reasons above.


With regard to standards, there are cases of non compliant imports already and those purchasers have had to put up with the incompatibilities.
The large manufacturers have been complying with the receiver standard, however it was to be updated until ASA ran out of money.

There is no currently approved list of "VAST" satellite receivers which has been made public. Only the Altech UEC but no models are mentioned.
Using a search engine on the ACMA, DBCDE and digital ready websites for UEC only produced a single result from 2007. This result refers to the Aurora system.

If the government wants to effect a change in standards it will have to make them mandatory.

As for Hills having the contract, there is two jobs happening in the Mildura area. The fitting of terrestrial receivers for those on certain types of pensions including antennas within the coverage area of the high powered terrestrial transmitters and Underbool. The other is satellite installations in Ouyen. Ouyen has never had any terrestrial TV and has been Aurora only.

Viewer and DrP,
Read Landmark agreement to deliver Digital TV to Remote, Regional and Blackspot viewers Media release.

AlanH

[viewer]

Thanks for the link.

These two lines are far apart in the release, and it will be interesting to see if the subsidy extends to all areas......
The Government will provide a subsidy of $400 to eligible households to convert to the new satellite service.
Households in the Mildura/Sunraysia region already using the existing Aurora satellite service will be able to convert to the new service using their existing dish as soon as the new set top boxes are available.

However, I guess if this Mildura area falls in subsidy for Aurora users, then all Aurorians are in the same boat I suppose.
Having said that, it is my fear that they will only subsidise those Aurorians in their technical broadcast zones now, and not us already blackspot out of area Aurorians. I hope we will not again have to pay for another site survey, and then be penalised further by being denied a rightful subsidy.

[alanh]

Viewer,
You won't actually know until the switch over moves to you area to find out.
There will be a around 100 sites to get digital transmiters funded by broadcasters.

The ACMA is doing field strength measurements around the coverage areas of DTV transmitters progressively prior to the .

So wait until 6 months prior to your region's analog switch off and ask then.

AlanH

[ChaosMaster]

Right.
alanh, if you want to keep contesting facts and whining about 'how-you-think-things-ought-to-be' (as opposed to how they actually are), go and post it somewhere else on the forum where it belongs. The debate going on in this thread has now more than likely confused the absolute living daylights out of the poor OP. These kinds of idiotic, self-obsessed arguments that you have managed to start in almost every currently active technical or reception thread, when people are asking for genuine help and advice are quickly reducing the technical credibility of this forum to little more than a running joke.

There is nothing wrong with having an opinion on matters such as codecs, standards, and the like, but there is a proper place for expressing it, and here is not appropriate, nor are many of the other threads in which you have brought these matters up.

I will say it one more time, either stop it now, or I will report you.

[DrP]

alanh, on May 1 2010, 08:18 PM, said:

With such high power in Mackay, overloaded receivers is far more likely and the signals will go further than what most high powered DTV transmitters will.

So the power has been reduced to 200 kWerp?!

More alanh idiocy.  Go back and read.

Quote

The frequency offset of 125 kHz is to minimise the visibility of the digital dots on an analog signal so the power levels can be higher without consumer complaint. They are not irrelevant. The offsets have been used instead of selecting another channel. All Nine network stations in capital cities have a 125 kHz offset and have had it from the start for the reasons above.

Really?  The offset is to reduce adjcent channel inteferrence to allow higher power levels?  Well what do you know.      Incidentally when replying to a post its usually a good idea to read the post before replying.  Re-read my post and see where the word 'irrelevant' was used - has it been used WRT offsets?  I know you can answer this one if you try hard.

Quote

With regard to standards, there are cases of non compliant imports already and those purchasers have had to put up with the incompatibilities.
The large manufacturers have been complying with the receiver standard, however it was to be updated until ASA ran out of money.

Yet the standard remains unbinding, non-compulsory.  What does that tell you?  Oh, and which brands have been demonstrated to have been amongst the brands that have (or had) incompatibilies?  Sony, Panasonic, LG etc, you know the big brands you say are fully compliant.  I'm sure some owners of 'large brand name' equipment can recall not being able to view transmissions with 125kHz offsets as well as having to 'rescan' their receiver when changes to the transmission has been made.  

In fact, from another thread...

alanh, on May 1 2010, 08:35 PM, said:

To get the receiver to receive RF channel 31 it will have to be rescanned when the signal is present.

Only because of non-compliance with the non-binding standards.  If the receiver was fully compliant* all 9 would have to is update the tables in the existing 'live' transmission to include information detailing the PIDs etc and frequency where the '3D' transmission can be found.  After a few moments of being tuned to the existing 'live' transmission the receiver would learn of the existence of 93 and how to get to it.

That this sort of advice needs to be issued for what will be essentially a new receiver (to support 3D it has to be pretty new) is telling and somewhat dismisses claims made regarding standards compliance.

_{*heck if it only implemented the DVB standard instead of the slight variations that is the Australian standard that would be sufficient in this case}

Quote

There is no currently approved list of "VAST" satellite receivers which has been made public. Only the Altech UEC but no models are mentioned.
Using a search engine on the ACMA, DBCDE and digital ready websites for UEC only produced a single result from 2007. This result refers to the Aurora system.

What?  You can't ask your insider NDA friends?  Oh my.

Quote

If the government wants to effect a change in standards it will have to make them mandatory.

All the government has to do is sit back and let natural attrition take its course, much the same as it has for each change in television broadcasting standards in this country.  See colour, UHF, digital etc.

Quote

As for Hills having the contract, there is two jobs happening in the Mildura area. The fitting of terrestrial receivers for those on certain types of pensions including antennas within the coverage area of the high powered terrestrial transmitters and Underbool. The other is satellite installations in Ouyen. Ouyen has never had any terrestrial TV and has been Aurora only.

Still irrelevant.  UEC is the sat STB supplier.

Quote

Viewer and DrP,
Read Landmark agreement to deliver Digital TV to Remote, Regional and Blackspot viewers Media release.

What?   A press release?  I'm sorry, press releases just don't cut it.

But if you are going to use a press release as evidence .... it does bring up that whole UEC receiver thing again.  So what is it?:  Press releases don't cut it and all the arguments you've hung off that particular article should be withdrawn (not that they were valid arguements in the first place) - or - UEC is indeed the supplier?  Let me know when you've come up with an answer to this question.


As I said before, even a troll posts more useful information.

Edited by DrP, 02 May 2010 - 06:12 AM.