36 replies to this topic

[MLXXX]

alanh, on Mar 24 2010, 10:06 PM, said:

Stat Mux should not be used during testing because the idea is to test the relationship between data rate and visual degridation so you can see the effects on different types of pictures.

Obviously.

I would suggest that testing should not be so much about performance at a fixed bitrate, but to ascertain:

• the peak bitrate required to encode challenging content at acceptable levels of visual degradation
  
• the average variable bitrate required to encode ordinary content at low levels of visual degradation.

This is based on the assumption that the codec will later be put to broadcast use for encoding multiple video streams, with dynamically allocated bitrates.

Edited by MLXXX, 24 March 2010 - 10:34 PM.

[alanh]

MLXXX,
Dynamic allocation is only required when more than one program is being transmitted. The the greater the effectiveness of Statistical Muxing occurs with the greatest number of program streams is being transmitted. This of course causes the greatest pressure on getting the peak rate high enough.

AlanH

[DrP]

alanh, on Mar 24 2010, 07:17 PM, said:

Most people do not like STBs.

Yet we see from earlier threads where you've 'actively promoted' MPEG-4 AVC replacing MPEG-2 that all the viewers have to do is buy a STB.  I am glad that you have accepted that telling approx 50% of the viewing public to buy a STB (to allow them to continuing viewing on their set which may only be a year or two old) may not be met with smiles.

alanh, on Mar 24 2010, 10:06 PM, said:

Another way of increasing the data available is to stop simulcasting HD and SD content. Any new programs should be in MPEG-4 minimise the amount of data generated.

digitalj, on Mar 24 2010, 10:17 PM, said:

they will stop this year.

Keeping in line with government releases to date any new channels that may appear will have to be MPEG-2 as we all know, or should know by now, that the government has no intention of making changes 'for the foreseeable future, at least until analogue switch off'.  Whilst simulcasting may cease the HD streams will more than likely persist but carry different content to the SD channel.  That situation yields no improvement in terms of bit rates.  The HD channel would need to cease, and probably be replaced with a SD service, for there to be any significant improvement in the lot of the other SD channels.

Edited by DrP, 25 March 2010 - 03:43 PM.

[alanh]

DrP,

Quote

for the foreseeable future, at least until analogue switch off.

This was from an investigation into how to introduce DVB-T2/MPEG-4 or MPEG-4 on our existing system as part of the digital dividend. So the forseable future is likely to start in 2014 because of all of the money which can be made by selling the vacated channels to the phone/Wifi industry.

You also fail to mention the possibility of 'teaser' transmissions in MPEG-4 prior to this date.

None of this matches your philosophy of no change.

AlanH

[digitalj]

alanh, on Apr 4 2010, 10:03 PM, said:

None of this matches your philosophy of no change.

AlanH

Please re-read DrP's posts, he has never said there will be "no change".

[DrP]

alanh, on Apr 4 2010, 10:03 PM, said:

DrP,

This was from an investigation into how to introduce DVB-T2/MPEG-4 or MPEG-4 on our existing system as part of the digital dividend. So the forseable future is likely to start in 2014 because of all of the money which can be made by selling the vacated channels to the phone/Wifi industry.

You have that a bit twisted, not that this should be suprise to anyone.  RF space restacking is a completely separate issue and does not involve replacement of any receivers.  At least you now appear admit (not directly of course) that there must be something to the well published 'not for the foreseeable future' quote.

Quote

You also fail to mention the possibility of 'teaser' transmissions in MPEG-4 prior to this date.

'not for the foreseeable future.  At least until after analogue switch off'.  What part do you not understand?

Quote

None of this matches your philosophy of no change.

More alanh flim flam, which is nothing less than is expected.



... and now for some facts.

This is what the Australian government is telling the general public when it comes to digital television.  Not a mention of Freeview, not a mention of MPEG-4 AVC, not a mention of DVB-T2.  Examine the government's digital ready web site.  Not a mention of Freeview, MPEG-4 AVC nor DVB-T2 there either.

What can be gleaned from this?  On the basis that the government is not advising people to purchase MPEG-4 AVC / DVB-T2 capable receivers, any receiver sold to date and on sale now will be able to receive all programming for some time yet.


Even if one wishes to 'future proof' and obtain a MPEG-4 AVC capable receiver there is no compulsion to buy a Freeview branded receiver.  Purchasing a 'freeview' branded receiver is the advice that alanh has issued time and time again.  Bear in mind that if you do spend the extra cash today and purchase an MPEG-4 AVC capable receiver you may well find that you are going to replace the set due to age or feature creep before MPEG-4 AVC is transmitted in this country for general viewing.  If you have existing MPEG-2 only equipment there is no need to rush out and replace it.

Of course, the above paragraph is just my opinion, not a 'fact' but since 'facts' are so lacking from many of these MPEG-4 AVC style threads that shouldn't matter.

Edited by DrP, 05 April 2010 - 07:47 AM.

[alanh]

DrP,
I did not mention the restack you did. As you can see it is not mentioned here.
This is the quote you should refer to:

Quote

Migration to next generation broadcasting technologies—DVB-T2 and MPEG-4
Future developments in broadcast technology standards have the potential to provide even more spectrally efficient delivery of digital terrestrial television services. The next generation of broadcast technology standards include DVB-T2 and MPEG-4, both of which could allow more services to fit into the current spectrum channels. No doubt there will be further development of standards in the future.
DVB-T2 is a next generation development of the DVB-T technical standard currently used as the basis for free-to-air television broadcasting. It brings an increase of between 30 to 50 per cent in the program-carrying capacity of each channel in comparison to DVB-T2.
MPEG-4 is a new audio-visual coding standard and provides the capacity to potentially double the program-carrying capacity of each channel.
The current generation of digital television and network equipment, and of digital television sets and set top boxes, operates using the original technical standards adopted for digital television (DVB-T and MPEG-2). Although inclusion of MPEG-4 electronics in sets is now occurring, most people cannot receive signals using either DVB-T2 modulation or MPEG-4 audio-visual coding. The Government does not propose to move to a new standard in the foreseeable future, at least prior to switchover being completed. However, looking to the long term, if free-to-air television broadcasting is to take advantage of these new standards in the future, there would need to be a conversion path for both broadcasting transmission equipment and receivers.

Freeview, in its specifications for receivers that bear its label, has additional requirements relating to MPEG-4 in order to ‘future-proof’ the receiver for possible changes in technology in the longer term.
One of the options that might be considered to make this transition without disruption to viewers is a simulcast, where broadcasting services are transmitted using both standards until such time as all customers and broadcasters have migrated their equipment to the new standards.
A full simulcast of all available services on distinct channels would require a large amount of spectrum and is probably not technically feasible within the current spectrum available to broadcasters. However, it may be possible to use spectrum to migrate aspects of broadcasters’ services (for example, their HDTV service) or to run trials of new services (for example, new ‘teaser’ MPEG-4 channels sitting alongside existing MPEG-2 channels) to encourage viewers to purchase receivers compatible for both standards. In much the same way, unique HD digital television content such as that offered by ONE HD is already prompting viewers to purchase HD compatible receivers.
Reserving spectrum for this potential future transition would not maximise the digital dividend. However, the option remains for some broadcasters to obtain the spectrum for a simulcast if the digital dividend were offered for sale in a service neutral and technically flexible open auction process.

Questions
3.21 Should digital dividend spectrum be used to implement DVB-T/MPEG-2 to DVB-T2/MPEG4 or DVB-T/MPEG-4 conversion strategies? If so, which strategies?
3.22 Would additional spectrum be required? If so, how much?
3.23 When would this spectrum be required?
3.24 What would be the benefits of this use? Arguments should focus on the value this use of spectrum presents for the Australian community and economy.

Page 20 - 21 in the .pdf

No mention of restack in this section, mention of dates, it's asking for strategy.

Once this has been decided by the Minister, then the digital ready website may change.
Even though you do not wish to read the Broadcast Services Act, the Minister has the right in the act to modify the conversion program without amending the Act.

AlanH

[MLXXX]

alanh, on Apr 5 2010, 08:55 PM, said:

the Minister has the right in the act to modify the conversion program without amending the Act

To what relevant extent?  Would this be likely to be a fine-tuning [no pun intended]. If more than a minor fine-tuning, would it require a change in enunciated policy?  Yes.

The enunciated policy, as you have quoted yourself just above, relevantly states:

The current generation of digital television and network equipment, and of digital television sets and set top boxes, operates using the original technical standards adopted for digital television (DVB-T and MPEG-2). Although inclusion of MPEG-4 electronics in sets is now occurring, most people cannot receive signals using either DVB-T2 modulation or MPEG-4 audio-visual coding. The Government does not propose to move to a new standard in the foreseeable future, at least prior to switchover being completed. However, looking to the long term, if free-to-air television broadcasting is to take advantage of these new standards in the future, there would need to be a conversion path for both broadcasting transmission equipment and receivers.

No-one had denied change may occur in the long term. Or that change may be desirable in the long term.

You seem to be arguing with yourself, alanh, and filling up thread space with needless repetition in the process.

Edited by MLXXX, 05 April 2010 - 10:22 PM.

[alanh]

MLXXX,
This submission process ended last month. The beginning of the Analog switchoff starts on 30 th June. This will mean that the restack of channels can occur in Sunraysia. Then move to regional SA, country Victoria/Qld etc. This is a proposal made (not by me). This means the money from the Digital Dividend will be able to flow from 2014 or earlier.

If all new receivers from now on are MPEG-4/DVB-T2 then a second switchover may be able to occur after 7 years. If we wait until 2014, 3 years have been wasted.
These modifications to receivers is inexpensive compared to the price of a receiver.

AlanH

[MLXXX]

alanh, on Apr 5 2010, 10:27 PM, said:

If all new receivers from now on are MPEG-4/DVB-T2 then a second switchover may be able to occur after 7 years. If we wait until 2014, 3 years have been wasted.

Alan, you have made the point above dozens of times, in dozens of threads.  There is no need endlessly to repeat yourself.

Quote

These modifications to receivers is [sic] inexpensive compared to the price of a receiver.

Probably so.

However, you have made that point many times before, as well.

There is nothing new in your posts in this subject area.

[alanh]

MLXXX,
This submission process ended last month. The beginning of the Analog switchoff starts on 30 th June. This will mean that the restack of channels can occur in Sunraysia. Then move to regional SA, country Victoria/Qld etc. This is a proposal made. This means the money from the Digital Dividend will be able to flow from 2014 or earlier.

If all new receivers from now on are MPEG-4/DVB-T2 then a second switchover may be able to occur after 7 years. If we wait until 2014, 3 years have been wasted.
These modifications to receivers is inexpensive compared to the price of a receiver.

What happens next is the Minister's response to the Green Paper. It is the first time any Minister has asked any questions like this in over 35 years if at all. For the first time the Minister understands the technology otherwise these questions would not be asked.

AlanH

[DrP]

alanh, on Apr 5 2010, 08:55 PM, said:

DrP,
I did not mention the restack you did. As you can see it is not mentioned here.
This is the quote you should refer to:

alanh, on Apr 4 2010, 10:03 PM, said:

DrP,

This was from an investigation into how to introduce DVB-T2/MPEG-4 or MPEG-4 on our existing system as part of the digital dividend. So the forseable future is likely to start in 2014 because of all of the money which can be made by selling the vacated channels to the phone/Wifi industry.

You also fail to mention the possibility of 'teaser' transmissions in MPEG-4 prior to this date.

None of this matches your philosophy of no change.

AlanH

Contradictory statements are never useful.  Perhaps you should withdraw from this forum to save yourself further embarassment.

Edited by DrP, 06 April 2010 - 04:46 AM.