44 replies to this topic

[alanh]

Minister's Media Release

Note if you are not in the remote Licence area, and have an antenna installer prove you have insufficient signal strength at 10 m above the ground you can apply for coverage.

You will have to wait until the analog switch off is nigh, because there may be additional ground based transmitters installed in you area. The ACMA is surveying the need for additional transmitters in metropolitan and regional areas as the rollout proceeds.

AlanH

[DrP]

Hmm.  Three new commecial licence areas not just tweaks to existing arrangements, as has been suggested elsewhere.

Hmm.  Three tranmissions zones not one big one, as has been suggested elsewhere.

Hmm.  All zones must carry all terrestrial programming ie, ABC1, ABC HD, 7, 7TWO, 7 HD and not skip certain services such as the existing simulcasts, as has been suggested elsewhere.


It is good to see that the Minister is making sensible choices in these matters.

[alanh]

DrP,
You could not have noticed that 7HD and 9HD has stopped putting on different programs to 7 & 9 respectively. ONE HD and ONE are a simulcast.

The ABCHD and SBSHD have always been a simulcasting. So now that all stations are simulcasting it is ideal not to waste data in the satellite broadcasting by simulcasting. So the will mean that the SD copy will not be radiated as it is not necessary in these new generation receiver.

AlanH

[mtv]

alanh, on Mar 18 2010, 02:35 PM, said:

So the will mean that the SD copy will not be radiated as it is not necessary in these new generation receiver.

AlanH

When the networks have separate HD and SD programming, that would mean one channel would be missing.

Please provide proof that this is what is planned, or are you just assuming things as per usual?

[DrP]

alanh, on Mar 18 2010, 02:35 PM, said:

DrP,
You could not have noticed that 7HD and 9HD has stopped putting on different programs to 7 & 9 respectively. ONE HD and ONE are a simulcast.

The ABCHD and SBSHD have always been a simulcasting. So now that all stations are simulcasting it is ideal not to waste data in the satellite broadcasting by simulcasting. So the will mean that the SD copy will not be radiated as it is not necessary in these new generation receiver.

AlanH

Government Media Release said:

"The Bill will help broadcasters provide the same number of digital television services to all Australians wherever they live, whether they access television through terrestrial transmission or via satellite," Senator Conroy said.

That's pretty straight forward and easy to understand language, direct from the horse's mouth.

ABC HD will soon no longer be a simulcast of ABC1, it will be an 24 hour news service.  9 and 7 have both made rumblings regarding the retasking of their HD channels once simulcasting is no longer required.  Both have carried separate breakaway content and there is nothing preventing them from doing so again in the future. TEN has made rumblings about ending the 24 hours sports simulcast.

Edited by DrP, 18 March 2010 - 03:12 PM.

[M'bozo]

alanh, on Mar 18 2010, 02:07 PM, said:

Note if you are not in the remote Licence area, and have an antenna installer prove you have insufficient signal strength at 10 m above the ground you can apply for coverage.

Where is that specified exactly for the case being discussed here?

(Yes, I know why 10 m above the ground is specified. Have you any idea how easy that is to achieve in a normal installation scenario?)

[alanh]

MBozo,
You obviously have not tried to get the decryption key for Imparja/Southern Cross Central. Go to any of the "Get the best reception" posts and click on the out of area link and read the form you would have to fill out. Yes you have to calculate the field strength at the receiver site and it must be under their specification.

As for the others,
Show me where any of the networks are putting on different programs between their main SD channel and their HD channel this year.

The Minister is also saying that this service will contain the regional news bulletins from the commercial stations within the state of the coverage area. So for example Qld/NT the will broadcast all the news bulletins transmitted in coastal Qld + Darling Downs, as well as Darwin. They will have also to produce their own bulletin for their licence area. So this will require an extra SD channel to carry these bulletins because it will take longer than one bulletin.

Look at the cost saving by not simulcasting the same programming. In this case its 18 channels will not be required. A small number will be required for the news in Qld/NT, and SE. Country WA only has one licence region so they won't need an extra news channel.

We must all remember the only reason there is simulcasting at all is that the politicians thought there would be no viewers in 2001 if they did not transmit an SD version. This was incorrect at the time and is still incorrect. All HD STBs can output signals for old TVs.

Remember now you cannot buy new flat screen SD TVs from retailers. They are all HD or Full HD.
I just examined the latest Dick Smith sale catalogue through the letterbox. They are not selling any SD receivers or STBs.

You can see that the Minister is not mirroring what satellite service is there at present. So the past is not necessarily a guide.

AlanH

[crippstor]

alanh, on Mar 18 2010, 07:08 PM, said:

Remember now you cannot buy new flat screen SD TVs from retailers. They are all HD or Full HD.
I just examined the latest Dick Smith sale catalogue through the letterbox. They are not selling any SD receivers or STBs.

AlanH

Alan, may I suggest rather than relying on junk mail, that you check facts. Both SD flat screen TV's and SD STB's are available at DSE.
Have a look at the website.

[alanh]

Crippstore,
Note that the only SD TVs are analog. The SD STBs are at runout prices and they are not pushing them to the general public.

The cost of HD has drastically reduced in TVs. Look at the other retailers! I have already done this.

AlanH

[crippstor]

alanh, on Mar 18 2010, 08:50 PM, said:

Crippstore,
Note that the only SD TVs are analog.

AlanH

Wrong again, please as I asked, check your facts DVBT is digital not analog is it not. So according to the specs I just read the flat screen SD TV advertised is not analog.
And it doesn't matter if they are pushing them or SD STB's or not, the fact is they are for sale and you said they were not.
Have the cohones to admit an error.

[DrP]

alanh said:

Show me where any of the networks are putting on different programs between their main SD channel and their HD channel this year.

Stick around.  It won't be much longer until ABC's 24 hour news service is running.

Quote

"The Bill will help broadcasters provide the same number of digital television services to all Australians wherever they live, whether they access television through terrestrial transmission or via satellite," Senator Conroy said.

So I wonder what exactly the Minister actually meant when he said 'the same number of digital television services'?  Perhaps alanh, you could write another of your famous letters (same as you did to 'blueray') and ask him to clarify his position.

I see alanh is bandying another government document about in another thread WRT simulcasting.  As has been stated many times already, once the simulcast period is done the networks can (and most likely will) retask their HD services to different purposes (or perhaps do away with it completely and provide another SD service).  To cope with this eventuality the existing two SD and one HD service per commercial network will need to be carried on the Aurora V2 service.

------------------------

Here's just a few of alanh's 'facts':

• All MPEG-4 AVC video is progressive
  
• New Zealand only transmits progressive video on its digital service
  
• All DAB+ receivers behave in the same way when faced with poor quality signals
  
• Foxtel transmits only MPEG-4 AVC
  Foxtel History
  Start Foxtel SD only 1998 DVB-S MPEG 2
  End Foxtel SD  2007 MPEG2 switched off. Ie only used for 6 years
  
  Start Foxtel Digital 2004 DVB-S MPEG4 HD
  Start Foxtel HD+ 20080130 DVB-S2 MPEG4 HD
  
• BD players spin the disc more slowly to achieve a lower playback rate
  
• All bluray discs are intended to be played at 24FPS
  
• Log periodic antennas are not 'the best choice'
  
• ATSC SFNs are not possible
  
• Digital radio (DAB+) in Australia sounds better than any internet radio station ever could
  
• The Aurora V2 service will have one large footprint for all of Australia
  
• DVB-T2 doesn't work because it has too poor SNR performance
  
• MPEG-4 AVC video is faked with icons and the audio is midi
  MPEG 4 is designed for the Audio Visual industries and the internet. It converts the image into icons and then sends a description of the icon. Then just the icon number and its location are sent. When a person's face is sent as an icon, the sound is analysed for its phonetic characteristics and then the mouth moves according to the sounds being made. Music is sent as MIDI.
  
  In short it is a simulation unlike MPEG 2 which is sending images and sounds.
  
• The use of SBR and PS is compulsory in Australian DAB+ transmissions
  
• There are no MPEG-2 HD satellite delivered services
  
• There are no DVB-S carried MPEG-4 AVC HD services
  
• Internet radio on a mobile telephone doesn't work
  
• TV over IP doesn't work
  
• Communities of 10,000 or less will not be connected to the NBN's fibre network
  Towns of less than 10,000 will not be connected with the NBN.
  
• ABC employs extensive use of analogue equipment in its playout systems
  
• Most ABC programming contains artifacts attributable to passing through a PAL process
  
• SBS can do transmission area specific advertising - diferent ads in Cairns to ads in Mackay
  SBS can send local advertising to the Illawarra, Newcastle, Sydney, and other areas of NSW. This is why there was a receiver rescan early last year.
  
  
  I am not talking of state global but regional local. Just advertising for the Mackay area for example and not for Cairns or Toowoomba.
  
  Considering that existing links in WIN's Qld  network must already be 7 MHz wide and so is capable of carrying WINHD, WIN and Go! Why are they upgrading. To be able to regionalise their advertising.
  
• There are no SD sets for sale
  
• All FULL HD TVs can decode MPEG4 AVC programming
  
• All brands of receivers can decode MPEG-4 AVC programming (later reduced to an admission that only Panasonic and Sony were checked)
  
• USA ATSC FTA transmissions use only MPEG-4 AVC for the sub channels
  
• USA ASTC FTA transmissions do not have any simulcasts
  
• USA ATSC FTA transmissions do not contain any additional channels (and yes, I know this contradicts an earlier point, but that's alanh for you!)
  
• No more development is being done on '2D' codecs, all attention is now devoted to '3D' development.
  
• Foxtel does not have any simulcasts (a SD and HD edition of a channel)
  As for Free to Air or Pay TV, Foxtel and NZ free to air use MPEG4 compression. They do not simulcast a digital standard definition signal. Australia's FTA and the US is MPEG2.
  
• NTSC OTA transmission has ceased in the USA
  
• The USA is reverting transmission from 59.97 back to 60.
  
• MP3 audio can not manage echo (reverb)
  
• Australian television networks do not transmit content that has undergone a '24p>60i>50i' conversion process.
  
• ABC, WIN and PRIME will commence MPEG-4 AVC transmission once their new playout facilities are completed
  
• Aurora V2 (VAST) is 'on air'
  
• DBCDE says Aurora V2 (VAST) is 'on air'
  
• Aurora V2 (VAST) was only 'on air' for a short term test
  
• Ouyen etc will get a terrestrial retransmission of the VAST service
  
• Aurora V2 (VAST) only uses MPEG-4 AVC
  
• Broadcast antennas are all designed to cover more band space than any amatuer radio operator's antennas.
  
• The MER shows how well the error correction system can remove the errors.
  
• MPEG-2 I frames can be empty if there hasn't been any content change from the last P/B frame
  
• Commercial satellites (ie, Optus') have a lifetime of 7 years
  
• DVB-T [in Australia] uses 1705 of carriers spread over the 7 MHz bandwidth
  
• CRA owns the company which has the licence for all commercial DAB+ transmitters.
  
• Only North America uses ATSC.
  We were, in 2000, the only location in the world to compare side by side the DVB-T and the ATSC systems. (Now only North America uses ATSC). We were also the only ones to transmit HD TV even if a lot of it was upscaled.
  
• New terrestrial digital services in regional WA will be MPEG-4 AVC
  
• New terrestrial digital services in regional WA will be based upon the new DTH satelite service
  
• DVB-S2 means MPEG-4 AVC must be used
  
• MPEG-4 AVC means that DVB-S2 is being used
  
• Demodulators are not included/onboard integrated video/audio/cpu devices
  
• Australia was the only country in the world transmitting HD in 2000
  (see North America ATSC quote)
  
• All 3-D satellite TV uses DVB-S2/MPEG-4
  
• ABC will not include ABC1 in the stat mux group because it will lower picture quality
  
• The reason why ABC1 is not in the stat mux is because they do not want any complaints about their main channel going down in quality!
  
• Aurora V2 (VAST) will not carry HD/SD simulcasts
  
• Aurora V2 (VAST) will not carry the SD edition of the HD/SD simulcasts
  
• In the USA only 10% of viewers use OTA because NTSC has hue shift problems.
  
• In the USA OTA digital has seen a large increase in the number of OTA viewers³
  vWe were never going to use DVB-S2 for SD or HD and MPEG-4 would never be used for satellite
  
• Multiple USB connections [ie connecting several USB PC tuners to a USB hub] are not fast enough [to carry 4 transport streams]⁴
  
• ABC's new news channel will be SD
  
• ABC's new news channel will be compressed with MPEG-4 AVC
  
• The freeview EPG is accurate with respect to start and end times.
  
• The eastern VAST transmission does not contain SBS SD.
  
• All satellite receivers contain FM radio subcarrier demodulators
  
• According to Lyngsat, Triple J on AsiaSat 4 is carried on a separate subcarrier of 12.456 GHz. The polarisation is vertical.
  
• SPIRIT and RED FM are on a separate sub carrier, do not appear in an 'Aurora' stream and are not carried on an Optus satellite
  What makes you think that Red and Spirit are part of the digital data stream of Aurora. No they are transmitted as separate subcarriers which are encrypted. Not only that they are not on Optus satellites because they charge too much.
  
• CSIRO invented COFDM
  
• Digital TV in the USA does not use low VHF channels.
  We are lucky that we have never had to use a hue control on a TV. The USA have only been relieved of this with DTV.
  Spectrum space was not a problem they had 81 RF channels over the years this has been dropped back to 68 channels and again back to 58 and for digital back to 51. However there is no digital transmitter allocations to channels 2 - 6 because of impulse interference.
  
  Cable TV is more about being able to charge for programs rather than providing them to Free to View and paid for by advertising.
  
• WA VAST is not 'on air'
  
• Anyone seeing the three commercial networks in WA via their VAST receiver is watching the D1 terrestrial feeds
  
• The WA D1 commercial feeds are not encrypted
  
• You can not apply for a WA VAST receiver to be activated yet
  
• Alice Springs will only have 1 digital transmitter and it will only carry the 3 main SD commercial channels.  Alice viewers will not see ELEVEN, One HD, 7TWO, 7mate, GO! and GEM.
  
• WIN in WA will not advertise GEM programming.
  
• Digital television transmissions in Australia operate at 1/4 analogue peak power to reduce adjacent channel inteferrence⁵
  None of what you said applies, because the analog channel is the next channel higher so the sound carriers are further from the digital signal.
  If what you say about receivers is true, then in Brisbane for example what happens to the reception of digital channel 6 and analog channel 7 which is the same way around. Similarly channels 8 and 9. I don't hear anybody screaming since 2001. This is why the digital power is a quarter of the analog vision power.
  
• A diode demodulator will not work with a single sideband + carrier transmission
  The other main advantage of DRM is that the signals below the centre frequency of the channel are different to those above the centre frequency. With AM the lower sideband and the upper sidebands are mirror images of each other and so we only need one of them. So if the carrier was on the lower edge of a 18 kHz wide channel then the sound could go from around 50 Hz to 15 kHz. This won't work with diode demodulators.
  
• DVB-t transmissions in 'regional-wide' Australia are 50kW for VHF10 or below
  Band 3 ATSC channel 7 - 13 174 - 216 MHz 3159 transmitters  from 1 W to 325 kW (equals Aust channels 6 - 10) Our regional-wide transmitters are 50 kW
  
• FM radio has a cliff in the same manner as digital radio
  
• Mobile phones are not capable of AM reception⁶
  No phones are capable of AM reception, FM radio does not gradually degrade, it has a cliff like digital. As soon as the reception strength is below the limiting in the receiver, either the hiss makes reception unusable or a mute circuit operates.
  
• TV4ME is not a datacasting channel
  
• There is currently talk of converting SBS to 64QAM to increase the data rate from 19 - 23 Mbit/s.⁷
  
• Freeview satellite is not capable of HD transmissions. (a bold claim to make given the time frame)
  
• ABC radio (and a a whole host of other stations), are not and never have been available on the Aurora service, they only appear as narrow band digital services.
  
• Foxtel cable is not available in Perth.
  The WA Government banned overhead cable TV wiring so Foxtel cable is not available in Perth. Foxtel did not want to pay for the trenching required to put it underground.
  
• Foxtel would not pay to put cable underground in Perth⁸
  
• All nerves are digital including the optic and auditory nerves⁹
  
• Both Bris 31 and SBS use the same type of modulation so why doesn't it work¹⁰
  
• SBS has increased the data rate by transmitting more 8 power levels on the inphase signal and 8 power levels on the quadrature signal. (64 QAM) instead of one level of in phase and one level of quadrature. The 8 power levels requires the most significant bit to be transmitted as it is now and the lower bits at less power.
  
• H264 decompressors can decompress H265 signals but will not produce the depth infomration.
  
• Its OK to tell people to use an antenna that does not receive all the services those people may want to watch
  
• Dr Sullivan has not been at the CSIRO for some years.

... the list continues and is almost endless.

Of course, time plays a part here.  At the time each item was posted it was alanh's position and reality disagreed with him.  Things almost certainly have moved on since each item was posted.  In quite a few instances, alanh has quitely slunk away from this bizarre claims.

M'bozo has called the below point into question.  Since the original context of the quote can't be recalled, to err on the side of caution the quote has been moved out of the main list

aBER is a pre-correction measurement

*Eventually Foxtel will migrate all its services to MPEG-4 AVC and DVB-S2.  Similarly all terrestrial NTSC transmission in the USA will eventually (or perhaps by now actually has) cease.  At the time alanh made the NTSC switched off claim there were many analogue infills and several community broadcasters still transmitting NTSC.
3. audited figures from Neilsen show a decline in OTA reception from 12% in 2008 to 10% in 2009 with a predicted 9% in 2010.
4. USB2 can carry 480Mbit/sec, 4 x 'Australian' transport streams = ~96Mbit/sec
5. doesn't quite explain why digital services that don't have adjacent analogue services are run at 1/4 the area's analogue peak
6. two for the price of one!
7. anyone even remotely involved in broadcasting in Australia is aware that SBS, like all the other terrestrial digital television services apart from community broadcasts, commenced digital transmission using 64 QAM and has not varied from it.
8. underground was actually Foxtel's preferred choice with above only done when it was not practical for underground run, only when Optus started pole running in the east did Foxtel move to general above ground
9. I know its nothing to do with broadcasting but its so bizarre that I just had to include it
10. Anyone familiar with TV broadcasting knows that SBS uses and always has used QAM64 while the community channels generally use QPSK

Edited by DrP, 01 March 2013 - 06:22 AM.

[alanh]

DrP,
I note you have not included the DVB-S2.

I have no intention to feed your ego by bringing up all these topics again. As usual you are twisting what I have said.


ABC TV news has not been promoted as HD and it will be replaced with an SD News Channel. So simulcasting will not exist.

AlanH

[tonymy01]

alanh, on Mar 18 2010, 07:08 PM, said:

Show me where any of the networks are putting on different programs between their main SD channel and their HD channel this year.

Funny you should mention that... a thread popped up on the Beyonwiz forum today: http://www.beyonwiz....pic.php?p=74830
Crux of the thread, last night Nein had 3 different shows on at once (late night, LCN 9 - Entertainment Tonight, LCN 90 - Danoz Direct Home Shopping, LCN 99 - Fringe).    They all did it for over a year before (HD & SD showing different shows I mean, Seven did it lots, they have now pumped many of the shows they used to break away with to 7TWO, Nein did it occasionally, Ten did it lots before ONEHD came along).
I would thing possibly the main reason they don't do it often now is they don't have the staff or resources to work out the intricacies of playing out 3 independent streams, and having to come up with more advertisers and/or split the advertising revenue even more than it is now (for little benefit if the channel doesn't rate well).

As for your other statements about Dickies... LOL!   How about going to Kmart, BigW, Dick Smiths and see they still have plenty of SD stuff avail, including both TVs and STBs.   They aren't running these items out either.   I am not endorsing this behaviour though, I, like I am sure many on dtvforums, love HD programming and want more of it.   But I can imagine once any simulcasting arrangements are completely removed, we will get *less* HD programming, not more.

Why are you like the three monkeys when it comes to presenting facts, and assume because you haven't seen something, it mustn't be true!?

Regards

[DrP]

alanh, on Mar 18 2010, 09:05 PM, said:

DrP,
I note you have not included the DVB-S2.

I have no intention to feed your ego by bringing up all these topics again. As usual you are twisting what I have said.


ABC TV news has not been promoted as HD and it will be replaced with an SD News Channel. So simulcasting will not exist.

AlanH

Precisely.  It'll be a separate service and have to be carried.  The commercial networks have made it quite clear that they will be splitting their HD and SD channels once the simulcast period is done.  Those separate programs will have to be carried.  Thankyou for agreeing with what multiple people in this thread have stated.

Quote

I have no intention to feed your ego by bringing up all these topics again. As usual you are twisting what I have said.

The only thing twisted here is your mind.  It simply does not cope with reality.

Government:  There will be no changes to the transmissions until at least after analogue switch off.
Government:  Satellite viewers will have the same number of services as terrestrial viewers.

Edited by DrP, 19 March 2010 - 06:26 AM.

[alanh]

DrP,
I am not going to respond to your drivel.
Many other posters complain about our posts and are sick and tired of them.

I will just rub it in as my predictions come true.

AlanH

[DrP]

Let me know when you've written to the Minister for clarification of what 'the same number of services' means alanh as clearly 3 does not equal 3 in the 'alanh book of mathematics'.

Oh, and while you are writing to the Minister, ask him what he meant when he said that no changes are being made for the foreseeable future, at least until after analogue switch off.


... and don't forget your bib.

Quote

I will just rub it in as my predictions come true.

Let's see:
ABC2 will be MPEG4 AVC.  Strike
ABC3 will be MPEG4 AVC.  Strike
Minor changes to existing terrestrial licences will be made to allow those broadcasters to operate the satellite service.  Strike

3 strikes.  You're out.

Edited by DrP, 19 March 2010 - 08:05 AM.

[Smacca]

People wouldn't need to complain if you just got your facts straight and actually provided expertise rather than blurting out (usually incorrect) specs and (usually over-the-top) predictions.

Fact: AlanH is usually either wrong, mis-guided or completely off-topic.

While I'm at it; why the hell is there yet another topic on this? Oh, that's right, because AlanH has steered the other two into oblivion.

[viewer]

Smacca, on Mar 20 2010, 08:11 PM, said:

While I'm at it; why the hell is there yet another topic on this? Oh, that's right, because AlanH has steered the other two into oblivion.

Yes Smacca, I have resorted to look at all listings to try keep abreast on this topic as well. If it was all in one thread it'd be great.

Edited by viewer, 20 March 2010 - 07:20 PM.

[MLXXX]

tonymy01, on Mar 18 2010, 09:18 PM, said:

Why are you like the three monkeys when it comes to presenting facts, and assume because you haven't seen something, it mustn't be true!?

There's a rhetorical question for you, AlanH.

Smacca, on Mar 20 2010, 07:11 PM, said:

People wouldn't need to complain if you just got your facts straight and actually provided expertise rather than blurting out (usually incorrect) specs and (usually over-the-top) predictions.

Fact: AlanH is usually either wrong, mis-guided or completely off-topic.

Moreover, when queried, AlanH frequently repeats the misinformation.  Here's a recent example, from a thread about 3D displays coming out later this year.  AlanH comments on the way the Left and Right images of a Blu-ray disc encoded with a 3D movie will be delivered by a 3D capable Blu-ray player to such a display.  This is very new technology and AlanH was explaining it to all who might read his post:

alanh, on Feb 25 2010, 10:04 PM, said:

The player has to send the decompressed signal on to HDMI with the depth signal taking a separate time slot. The display has to store the image in two sections of RAM. The depth signal is used to move the close objects further apart.

Unfortunately, as explained at the end of that thread, the 3D will be fully decompressed by the Blu-ray player into Left and Right images.  These images will be sent intact to the 3D capable display.  There will be no 'depth signal taking a separate time slot'.

Most people would not presume to comment on technical protocols of 3D Blu-ray players without either (a) having an authoritative source to rely on, or (b) acknowledging they are making a guess.

[alanh]

MLXXX,
If you read the HDMI interconnection specification (www.hdmi.org) for 1.4 you will find one mode is image and depth. It is the display in this mode which produces the left and right signals.

Also your comparison with FM radio gives the wrong impression. It is much better to use an image related one. This is because the difference signal (L-R) is not bandwidth limited in FM radio.

Digital colour is not transmitted as Reg, Green and Blue because the data rate required is far too high. To reduce the data rate the eye can detect changes in very small areas but cannot detect a variation of hue with such precision. As a result a sharp luminance signal is produced along with Red - Luminance and a Blue - Luminance signal.
Pr and Pb are reduced in voltage range to make all 3 signals have a full signal range from 16 - 238 levels.
The data is sent
Luminance 1, Pr1, Luminance 2 Pb1, Luminance 3, Pr2, Luminance 4, Pb2......

Once these signals are in the display the luminance and Pr are added together in the correct proportions to produce the Red signal, similarly the Blue signal and Green signal.
This process reduces the required data rate by 1/3 for no visible effect at normal viewing distance.

These signals are identical to those coming from the camera if it is large areas of colour. If the signal represents a very small area the signals are identical showing a monochrome picture. This is similar to the old cartoon printing technique of printing coloured areas and placing a black line around each shape.

This technique is also used in analog TV where the chroma bandwidth is about 10% of the luminance bandwidth, and in the PAL case pairs of lines are averaged in the receiver to prevent hue changes like with NTSC.

Similarly for 3D for transmission we cannot detect variations in depth with the same precision as the fine detail so depth signal is produced

Luminance 1, Pr1, Luminance 2 Pb1, depth 1, Luminance 3, Pr2, Luminance 4, Pb2, depth 2......
So instead of using twice the data bandwidth for 3-D it is 1.5 times.

The advantage of this system is that once compressed 4 data streams are produced; Luminance, Pr, Pb and depth. So you can have a monochrome or colour 2-D display or a 3-D display fed with the same signals. No more frame flicker than with the 2-D signal, because the left and right images may both change on every frame, If the image is moving towards you the frame rate is halved ( one for left followed by one for right) causing jerky motion.

You may also note in the HDMI1.4 that they group together 23.94 and 24 frame/s as one category. MLXXX the link you wanted without explanation
AlanH

[MLXXX]

alanh, on Mar 21 2010, 09:10 AM, said:

MLXXX,
If you read the HDMI interconnection specification (www.hdmi.org) for 1.4 you will find one mode is image and depth. It is the display in this mode which produces the left and right signals.

Alan you are repeating back to me, what I have already said to you in the other thread!

Unfortunately this HDMI 1.4 mode you are referring to is not the mode that will be used for the Full High Definition 3D displays later this year, to display the expected 3D Blu-ray discs later this year, of true 3D movies.  The process involves true 3D content, i.e. separate Left and Right images from separate cameras [or cgi animation] being encoded to the new version of MPEG4 as a [possibly synthesized] mono image [for compatibility with non-3D displays] plus complex stereo depth information [to enable the Left and Right images to be reconstituted].  When the Blu-ray player decodes such an MPEG4 file fully for one of the new Full High Definition 3D displays, it will generate:

• the original separate Left image
  
• the original separate Right image.

If decoding partially (e.g. for a 2D display connected to the HDMI cable), the 3D capable Blu-ray player can simply decompress and pass to the HDMI cable the mono [i.e. 2D] images embedded into the core part of the MPEG4 file. It will not need to generate Left and Right images.

This form of 3D capability is new and advanced and quite different to the version of 3D you have described.  Although your version exists in the HDMI 1.4 arsenal, it is a "poor man's 3D" more akin to 3D simulation, rather than true 3D.  It is not the weapon of choice for the new 3D Blu-ray discs, Blu-ray players, and Full High Definition 3D displays.

As per the quote I provided in the other thread, taken from http://hdguru.com/3d...explained/1336/ :-

Full HD 3D

Transmitting uncompressed Full High Definition 3D (FHD3D) signals (defined as 1920 x 1080 resolution for both the left and right eye [each frame]) requires connecting a 3D Blu-ray player to a FHD3D TV using a suitable HDMI cable. The FHD3D signal’s bit rate is 6.75 Gbps (gigabits per second). The HDMI 1.4 standard’s maximum bit rate of 10.2Gbps is identical to that of the older HDMI 1.3 standard.

The 1920 x 2205 pixel at 24Hz (see drawing above) FHD3D signal differs from any previous HD or 3D signal. 1920 is the number of active pixels across each frame while 2205 pixels is the vertical resolution of two Full HD frames plus 45 pixels of active blanking separating the FHD left and right frames.

As the drawing illustrates, the signal places the two frames in a configuration known as “over/under.” This is the first and currently only FHD3D TV standard signal and because it is totally new, no non-FHD3D display can accept it.

Edited by MLXXX, 21 March 2010 - 10:53 AM.

[alanh]

MLXXX,
This post does not mention the mode from the HDMI 1.4 standard of the Left + depth signals.

The methods they mention require double the bandwidth one and half times. Whilst the is not a major difficulty in HDMI 1.4, it is in recording and broadcast.

Sony who are producing the signals from the Soccer World cup is using the method I have suggested because they are not taking a pair of TV channels for one program. There is no answers as to Direct TV satellite coverage. The compression tranmsission standard is MPEG MVC. This is not discussed either.

I asked the HDGuru some months ago about the 23.94/24 frame/s. He did reply but he could not find a a definitive answer. I also tried all the US FTA networks, Sony and Panasonic none of which answered.

Getting your answers from another Forum is no guarantee of the correct answers.

AlanH

[MLXXX]

alanh, on Mar 21 2010, 09:40 PM, said:

Getting your answers from another Forum is no guarantee of the correct answers.

You need to exercise judgment.  Read the material critically and see whether it's internally consistent. In this instance the HDGuru explanation hangs together nicely.  Also you'll see mention of the "over/under" protocol elsewhere if you search.

Quote

MLXXX,
This post does not mention the mode from the HDMI 1.4 standard of the Left + depth signals.

That's because it's not relevant. That method is different.

Quote

The methods they mention require double the bandwidth one and half times. Whilst the is not a major difficulty in HDMI 1.4, it is in recording and broadcast.

I think you are confusing:

• the  MPEG4 MVC encoding process which uses a mono video signal at its core, and complex stereo "depth" information as supplementary data;
  
• how the video signal is sent from the Bluray player to the Full HD 3D display.

It is true that Left and Right video encoded to MVC takes up only about 1.5 times the bitrate of a mono video.

But the 3D Bluray player decodes to the original Left and Right video streams, and sends these decoded streams to the advanced display via HDMI. The HDMI cable can handle the high bitrate.

Quote

Sony who are producing the signals from the Soccer World cup is using the method I have suggested because they are not taking a pair of TV channels for one program.

Yes, presumably they will encode to MVC.

Quote

The compression transmission standard is MPEG MVC. This is not discussed either.

That's because the article is about playing back a 3D Bluray on a 3D Bluray player to a Full HD 3D display. There is no need for it to discuss "transmission standards" or even Bluray codecs.

Quote

I asked the HDGuru some months ago about the 23.94/24 frame/s. He did reply but he could not find a a definitive answer. I also tried all the US FTA networks, Sony and Panasonic none of which answered.

I don't know what you asked but it is common knowledge that United States digital television networks for many years have been using the detuned versions of the official framerates, i.e. p59.94 or i59.94 (i29.97); rather than p60, or i60 (i30).  There has been no announcement that this practice of using detuned framerates will cease.  There is no need to change this entrenched practice which, as you know, can be traced back to the start of colour television in the US in 1953/54.

Edited by MLXXX, 22 March 2010 - 12:30 AM.

[alanh]

MLXXX,
HDMI has added the modes you mention in HDMI 1.4a. However 3-D modes already specifies 2-D + depth modes.

Since Broadcast and recording mentiods require bandwidth reduction, thus when re satellite receiver and player will decompress the signals to y, Pr, Pb and depth signals. This can then be outputted in the above mode to the receiver. This will mean that there will not have to be any 2-D to 3-D conversions in satellite receivers or players. You only need this processing in the display.

As far as DVDs goes, the commercial releases are recorded at 59.95 field/s the inverse telecine is used as shown in the link goes. As I said all along. I think you should read the rest of the link I recommended.

I would not ask such a stupid question. The detuning was required so that the coloured patterning caused by the sound transmission could be minimised. Now that NTSC is not transmitted in the USA its not a problem. I asked which frame rate is used for DVD/Blu-ray disks 23.94 or 24 frame/s. This is the question he could not answer. However the link I gave you does.



AlanH

[MLXXX]

alanh, on Mar 22 2010, 12:35 AM, said:

Since Broadcast and recording mentiods require bandwidth reduction, thus when re satellite receiver and player will decompress the signals to y, Pr, Pb and depth signals. This can then be outputted in the above mode to the receiver. This will mean that there will not have to be any 2-D to 3-D conversions in satellite receivers or players. You only need this processing in the display.

Alan you keep repeating this claim, altering the wording, but you have provided no link to your source of information. I have provided a link to an alternative view, which seems plausible and correct, that the new Bluray players will fully decode to left and right images and send this by HDMI to the new Full HD 3D displays.

Quote

I asked which frame rate is used for DVD/Blu-ray disks 23.94 or 24 frame/s. This is the question he could not answer. However the link I gave you does.

Well it is not a difficult question.  NTSC DVDs are typically at 23.976p flagged for 59.94i, PAL DVDs are typically at 25p (50i), and Blurays are typically 23.976p which is either output in that format if the display can support it, or 3:2 pulled down to 59.94i otherwise.  I do not know what specifically you are referring to in your link that you feel contradicts this.

Edited by MLXXX, 22 March 2010 - 01:21 AM.