649 replies to this topic

[davmel]

alanh, on Mar 14 2010, 03:38 PM, said:

If all DVB-S2 receivers are used, there is no need to allocate SD programs of ABC1, SBS1, ONE, Imparja/WIN, Southern Cross/GWN ie simulcasting will not be required.

The service will still need to relay the SD channels like OneSD, ABC1 etc since the simulcasting on terrestrial FTA will soon come to an end. ABC HD will become ABC4, OneSD will soon be a completely independent content channel (different name) when it stops being a simulcast of OneHD, 7HD (and the regional equivalents) will stop being a simulcast of 7SD and the same will apply for 9HD and 9SD.

Quote

The viewers benefit from the DBCDE paying satellite costs. If this did not happen, they would not have Australian FTA TV at all. The existing Aurora service is already subsidised.

DBCDE will pay the costs to broadcasters regardless fs DVB-S or DVB-S2 is used, but DBCDE won't be paying viewers for the huge shortfall in costs to viewers in replacing multiple boxes in their homes. Homes with 4 boxes would have to fork out $2000+ to changeover and the government won't fund that.

[DrP]

alanh, on Mar 14 2010, 02:38 PM, said:

If all DVB-S2 receivers are used, there is no need to allocate SD programs of ABC1, SBS1, ONE, Imparja/WIN, Southern Cross/GWN ie simulcasting will not be required.

ABC1 will soon only be available as a standard definition terrestrial channel.  ABC HD is to be retasked as a '24 hour' news channel.
SC only provides a SD edition of the main channel.

In order for your statement to hold water both ABC1 and SC SD would need to be upscaled for 'Aurora V2' viewers, and that is nothing short of a bizarre course of action.  Please consider what you are actually saying as it doesn't really make a lot of sense.


(err, like davmel said too)

Edited by DrP, 14 March 2010 - 03:06 PM.

[alanh]

DrP & Davmel,
Remember the DBCDE is planning for the long term not the short term.
Not necessarily, these can be transmitted in SD DVB-S2 as well, however on the ABCHD one we will wait and see as to what happens in their new Ingleburn playout centre when its on air.

AlanH

[DrP]

alanh, on Mar 14 2010, 05:15 PM, said:

Remember the DBCDE is planning for the long term not the short term.

Precisely.  In effect this means that the SD and HD editions of the simulcasts will be transmitted.  This is the only possible answer given that the terrestrial transmissions upon which the 'Aurora V2' service will be based will eventually ('some time' post analogue 'switch off') have different content on what is currently used as simulcast channels (ABC, SBS, 9, 7).  TEN has already split its SD and HD channels.  ABC is about to do it.  The remainder have made rumblings about doing it.  Let's not forget that 7 and 9 have both used their HD channels for break away content already and if they did it again, well thats another tick in the 'for' column.


What will happen when ABC's and WIN's new joint facility is in use for ABC playout?  I'll make a prediction:

1.  ABC HD will become ABC News (if it hasn't already)
2.  ABC1 SD will become part of the 'stat mux' group
3.  If ABC News is delivered as an SD channel another SD channel may be added
4.  It'll all be MPEG-2

That's it.  No more, no less.

*edit*
Just to make it clear, because I can see someone reaching for the pointy end of a totally different stick, the MPEG-2 referenced in point 4 refers to terrestrial transmission.

Edited by DrP, 14 March 2010 - 06:27 PM.

[viewer]

I'll be happy when test transmissions start, so we all know what format and shape it is then going to be delivered in.

Until then, this speculation is just that...speculation.

We should hopefully get to a test stage soon.

Perhaps Minister Garrett is giving Minister Conroy some tips?

[DrP]

viewer, on Mar 14 2010, 05:43 PM, said:

I'll be happy when test transmissions start, so we all know what format and shape it is then going to be delivered in.

I'm sure a small flotilla of dishes will be pointed in the right direction the moment someone on a sat forum says 'I noticed something on XXXXX V this morning'.

[theslydog]

davmel, on Mar 14 2010, 03:13 PM, said:

Why the focus on C-band? Foxtel HD transmissions on the same Ku band sat show the clear advantage

As mentioned I happened to be watching C-band FTA DVB-S2 and these are the types of FTA/CI/card slot receivers ppl are likely to buy for the new srevice, not Foxtel receivers.

davmel, on Mar 14 2010, 03:13 PM, said:

Pay tv services are in a different league as they supply the boxes so they can do as they please. FTA transmissions with users using any number of unknown boxes can't suddenly choose to use the latest and greatest standard without junking everything already in the field.

And your point is? The original inference was in relation to "yet another person that equates DVB-S2 with HD."

davmel, on Mar 14 2010, 03:13 PM, said:

Foxtel used to transmit all their HD on DVB-S and still have one HD channel on DVB-S transponder due to a mix of SD and HD on that transponder.

Exactly why they have all got to DVB-S2 as I mentioned DVB-S HD is expensive. Incidentally which Channel is in DVB-S HD and I will go take a look as I cant see any. As far as I am aware all HD channels (for Fox customers) have been in DVB-S2.

davmel, on Mar 14 2010, 03:13 PM, said:

Irrelevant as no manufacturer still produces DVB-S only HD boxes. Back when they were produced many years ago they were very expensive like all HD receivers were.

Not irrelevent as mention they were all expensive - were and are.

Edited by theslydog, 16 March 2010 - 06:43 AM.

[thunderball]

does anyone know what channels will be on satellite yet. when will the government give more details on this. i think every person should have the right to this system if there willing to pay for the set up. i mean in some areas when it rains the town loses reception. but pretend there is no problem. if you had the sat service it would be more reliable

[BamBBBam]

thunderball, on Mar 16 2010, 12:27 PM, said:

does anyone know what channels will be on satellite yet.

Typical Rudd deal.. big announcement, little detail.

I think they haven't even worked it out themselves yet.

[thunderball]

i know, your right just keep us guessing

[davmel]

theslydog, on Mar 16 2010, 07:31 AM, said:

As mentioned I happened to be watching C-band FTA DVB-S2 and these are the types of FTA/CI/card slot receivers ppl are likely to buy for the new srevice, not Foxtel receivers.

Many of the latest generation of receivers from MediaStar, Strong, Dream etc have software that enables viewing of FTA as well as encrypted services like Aurora, AuroraV2 and Foxtel so it all comes down to what you're watching and which card you put in the box, not the type of receiver itself.

Quote

Exactly why they have all got to DVB-S2 as I mentioned DVB-S HD is expensive. Incidentally which Channel is in DVB-S HD and I will go take a look as I cant see any. As far as I am aware all HD channels (for Fox customers) have been in DVB-S2.

Foxtel Box Office HD On Demand is on the 12438H DVB-S transponder with pids 1031V/1034A
All previous 6 HD channels were on the DVB-S transponders 12287V and 12688H from Jan 2008 through Sept 2009.

[thunderball]

i read in free tv that the sat service is for people in black spot areas as we all know but it also says fringe areas and areas with marginal reception? and the decoder boxes is new technology not yet available in australia.

[davmel]

thunderball, on Mar 16 2010, 06:50 PM, said:

i read in free tv that the sat service is for people in black spot areas as we all know but it also says fringe areas and areas with marginal reception? and the decoder boxes is new technology not yet available in australia.

How did you come to that totally incorrect conclusion?
DVB-S2 and H.264 sat boxes with card and CAM slots have been available in Australia for a long time.

[DrP]

He read the government brief on the subject.  It clearly states that the receivers are 'new technology not available for sale in Australia'.  Of course, in all likelyhood, they will just be DVB-S2 MPEG-4 AVC HD capable receivers with either an embedded card reader or a CI slot.


Note to alanh:  stop right there.  This in no way means that all the transmissions will be DVB-S2 nor HD nor MPEG-4 AVC and no alanh, its still not a good idea to rush out and buy a receiver for the Aurora V2 service until the service is live and the receiver specifications made public - for compatibility reasons.

Edited by DrP, 16 March 2010 - 06:51 PM.

[viewer]

DrP, on Mar 16 2010, 07:30 PM, said:

Note to alanh:  stop right there.  This in no way means that all the transmissions will be DVB-S2 nor HD nor MPEG-4 AVC and no alanh, its still not a good idea to rush out and buy a receiver for the Aurora V2 service until the service is live and the receiver specifications made public - for compatibility reasons.

              

[theslydog]

davmel, on Mar 16 2010, 04:28 PM, said:

Many of the latest generation of receivers from MediaStar, Strong, Dream etc have software that enables viewing of FTA as well as encrypted services like Aurora, AuroraV2 and Foxtel so it all comes down to what you're watching and which card you put in the box, not the type of receiver itself.

Basically you are repeating what I have just said, although I doubt you will be able to use a foxtel receiver for AuroraV2.

davmel, on Mar 16 2010, 04:28 PM, said:

Foxtel Box Office HD On Demand is on the 12438H DVB-S transponder with pids 1031V/1034A
All previous 6 HD channels were on the DVB-S transponders 12287V and 12688H from Jan 2008 through Sept 2009.

Ok just checked, Fox (PACE) IQ does mpeg-2 MP@HL, BTW I had a look at the HD on 12438H (pids 1031V/1034A) and also get more HD with pids 1121V/1124A with Dolby AC-3

[davmel]

theslydog, on Mar 16 2010, 11:12 PM, said:

Basically you are repeating what I have just said, although I doubt you will be able to use a foxtel receiver for AuroraV2.

Foxtel receivers will always be locked through software to their own service, but 3rd party receivers with appropriate software will be able to receive both Foxtel and the new AuroraV2.

Quote

Ok just checked, Fox (PACE) IQ does mpeg-2 MP@HL

The first generation IQ's (Pace TDS460 & TDC460) can only decode MPEG-2 and the sat version can't receive DVB-S2 transponders. However, the newer IQ1 (Pace TDS480 & TDC480) can receive DVB-S2 transmissions as well as decode H.264 (SD only of course).

Quote

BTW I had a look at the HD on 12438H (pids 1031V/1034A) and also get more HD with pids 1121V/1124A with Dolby AC-3

1031V/1034A is the On Demand Box Office HD movie streaming channel
1121V/1124A is NOT a HD channel, it is the SD version of the On Demand channel that is encoded in H.264 @ 720x576i res (to save space on the recent IQ1 & IQ2 hard drives). Unlike the HD On Demand channel it does not exclusively show movies but also other push content from various channels mixed in with the movies (the movies are mostly shown back to back when they premiere on Wednesday but from Sunday through Tuesday other non box office content is streamed).
The 1121V/1124A is essentially a simulcast in H.264 of the MPEG-2 version on 12647V (delayed by around 5mins from the H.264 version) which is now only used by the older IQ STB's.

[theslydog]

davmel, on Mar 17 2010, 01:16 AM, said:

Foxtel receivers will always be locked through software to their own service, but 3rd party receivers with appropriate software will be able to receive both Foxtel and the new AuroraV2.

Nothing new here.

davmel, on Mar 17 2010, 01:16 AM, said:

1031V/1034A is the On Demand Box Office HD movie streaming channel
1121V/1124A is NOT a HD channel, it is the SD version of the On Demand channel that is encoded in H.264 @ 720x576i res (to save space on the recent IQ1 & IQ2 hard drives). Unlike the HD On Demand channel it does not exclusively show movies but also other push content from various channels mixed in with the movies (the movies are mostly shown back to back when they premiere on Wednesday but from Sunday through Tuesday other non box office content is streamed).
The 1121V/1124A is essentially a simulcast in H.264 of the MPEG-2 version on 12647V (delayed by around 5mins from the H.264 version) which is now only used by the older IQ STB's.

I just had a quick look with an aftermarket receiver and it came up as 1121V/1124A HD encrypted - dont have a fox receiver.

[davmel]

theslydog, on Mar 17 2010, 08:09 AM, said:

I just had a quick look with an aftermarket receiver and it came up as 1121V/1124A HD encrypted - dont have a fox receiver.

You're receiver is giving false information. It can't possibly know the resolution unless it is decrypted. Use an active orange sub card and you'll see it. Here is a cap (anamorphically stretched horizontally to correct aspect ratio by VideoRedo):
http://img46.imagesh...hift1701901.jpg
It's only a 2.6 Mbps average channel so you're not going to get any HD out of that!

[theslydog]

davmel, on Mar 17 2010, 02:02 PM, said:

You're receiver is giving false information.

It is prolly just picking up the H.264 and assuming it is a decent HD channel. Its a cheap Chinese Rx so who knows how they set up the hardware/firmware.

davmel, on Mar 17 2010, 02:02 PM, said:

It's only a 2.6 Mbps average channel so you're not going to get any HD out of that!

Yeah - not much bandwidth there...

[Jadakas]

http://www.adelaiden...3-1225842277961

[alanh]

Jadakas,
This is what the Jounalist read
The Minister is talking of Remote area licences.
In SA this means that the terrestrial broadcasters in the SE, Riverland & Spencer Gulf North will be transmitting all 3 networks and their subsidary programs. For people outside this area for example in the North and West they will use the satellite service mentioned in the Minister's media release.

AlanH

[thunderball]

its been confirmed today 3 new license areas, Northern Australia – encompassing the Northern Territory and Queensland
-South Eastern Australia – encompassing the Australian Capital Territory, New South Wales, South Australia, Tasmania and Victoria
& Western Australia. like i said a long time ago 3 zones.

[johnie]

thunderball, on Mar 16 2010, 02:57 PM, said:

does anyone know what channels will be on satellite yet. when will the government give more details on this. i think every person should have the right to this system if there willing to pay for the set up. i mean in some areas when it rains the town loses reception. but pretend there is no problem. if you had the sat service it would be more reliable

I was at the meeting last night with the digital task force and we were told this.
Black spots will be covered by satellite and have all local channels available using D2 satellite plus aurora will be phased out.
The government will sub $400 towards this which will give home users a STB/dish for one TV only.
Which STB will be used is still not finalized,you cannot get this sub until the last six months before shut down.
If you live in the metro area and you are in a black spot then you do not get the $400 sub,you must be class as country region.
Meeting was held at the Adelaide football club 7PM.17/3/10

Edited by johnie, 18 March 2010 - 05:11 PM.

[GoForMoe]

Posted this on MediaSpy as well, this is my interpretation of the bill put forward. I am not a lawyer, but I think I've got it right:

The channels will be formed by new supplementary licences called 'Section 38C', which builds on 38A licences, which are the secondary analogue channels in solus markets, like Prime Griffith, WIN Ten and Southern Cross Ten in the GTS/BKN licence area, and 38B licences, which are the digital third channels in two channel markets, like TDT and MDT.

As such, they will be offered to either joint venture companies or individual companies, who have licences in eligible areas,
For South Eastern Australia TV3 and  Northern Australia TV3,
The commercial television broadcasting licensees for the following licence areas:

(a) Remote Central and Eastern Australia TV1;
(B) Remote Central and Eastern Australia TV2;
© Mt Isa TV1.

And for Western Australia TV3,
(a) Remote and Regional WA TV1;
(B) Western Zone TV1;
© Kalgoorlie TV1;
(d) Geraldton TV1;
(e) South West and Great Southern TV1.

Basically, this means that it will be the existing operators, but there is a split of the Remote Central and Eastern Australia, licence area and technically they will get new licences.

In all likelyhood, this will result in Imparja/WIN having the Nine affiliate, Southern Cross/GWN having the Seven, and a joint venture for the Ten. But technically I believe they can both apply for the same licences individually, and they could end up owning two. This is only slightly likely if Southern Cross try to squeeze Imparja out.

In terms of services, it seems somewhat contradictory, but I will currently say that there seems to be an option to provide 2 SD multichannels, so it may be possible that HD channels are shown as SD ones. If this is just tacked on to Aurora without changing to a DVB-S2 platform (the legislation makes no mention of formats, so this is possible)

As for those wanting all the channels:

Quote

(3)  The first objective is that:

                     (a)  the scheme should specify the related terrestrial licence areas as areas that are taken to be areas ( category A reception areas ) in which people are unable to receive adequate reception of all of the applicable terrestrial digital commercial television broadcasting services; and

                     (B)  if a terrestrial licensee for a related terrestrial licence area is authorised, under paragraph 7(2A)(d) of Schedule 2, to provide a commercial television broadcasting service outside the related terrestrial licence area to one or more persons who are in the section 38C licence area—the scheme should provide that those persons are taken in to be in a category A reception area.

             (4)  The second objective is that the scheme should:

                     (a)  specify one or more areas included in the section 38C licence area; or

                     (B)  specify a method for ascertaining one or more areas included in the section 38C licence area;

that are taken to be areas ( category B reception areas ) in which people are unable to receive adequate reception of all of the applicable terrestrial digital commercial television broadcasting services.

This means you are only eligible if you do not receive one of the channels in your licence area. For example if you get perfect digital of WIN, Prime, ABC and SBS, but no Southern Cross, you are eligible. But if you do get all of them, you are not eligible for the satellite service.

It seems that a central authority rather than the individual broadcasters will act as a gatekeeper for this service, meaning you won't need to write to the commercial stations separately as currently happens.

You can only get access to this service 6 months prior to analogue switch off in your market area. So even if you currently only get analogue, it will not be until 6 months before the switchoff that you will actually get to access the service, even if you know you will never get digital.

Time zones will be based on 'a specified place' in the service area, so likely this will mean that the North Australia service will continue to be on Queensland and not NT time.

The good bits:
The licencees are required to provide a HD/SD Multichannel that 'has the same, or substantially the same, program content' as either their related terrestrial service, or if they don't provide the service terrestrially, they have to have 'the same, or substantially the same, program content' as the metro service.

So basically, if a metro broadcast station in 'the related licence area' provides a channel, it must be carried by the satellite service. However the big but is that after the start date of this service, this stops. As in, all new services started by broadcasters after the commencement of the sattelite service can be not carried if 'the ACMA considers that it is not technically feasible for the licensee of the section 38C licence to provide the required service'. After digital switchoff, that restriction on non-carriage doesn't apply.

So in short:
If you currently get all the channels, you aren't eligible
If you currently are more than 6 months away from analogue switch off in your area and you don't get all the channels in digital, you aren't eligible.
If you are less than 6 months from analogue switch off and you don't get all channels in terrestrial digital, you are eligible.
They will be operated by the incumbent remote broadcasters and joint ventures of them, not the metro networks. However the non-WA remote area has been split.  
They are required to provide any service currently provided by the metro networks in the licence areas covered, or from their terrestrial counterparts.
There is no requirement for digital terrestrial services to also carry metro networks, so it is inevitable that the satellite service will have more channels than terrestrial services in some areas. There is perhaps wiggle room on the definition of receiving 'all of the applicable terrestrial digital commercial television broadcasting services' and whether not receiving a multichannel offered in metro areas but not by your local regional affiliate makes you eligible, but I doubt that will work.
No mention is made of the formats used for broadcast.

Source, my interpretation of http://parlinfo.aph....rec=0;resCount=

Edited by GoForMoe, 18 March 2010 - 05:31 PM.