317 replies to this topic

[MLXXX]

alanh, on Sep 26 2011, 01:05 AM, said:

MLXXX,
The ABC/SBS transmitters carry only those broadcasters, the commercial broadcasters have to provide the data space to community radio stations. In Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane there are a pair of commercial transmitters, but in Adelaide and Perth there is only one each. It is part of the Digital Radio act that the commercial transmitters must provide data capacity to community broadcasters.

AlanH.

AlanH, I am at a loss to know why you have directed the above post to me. My last post was not to raise a query about which stations use which mux. Or the state of rollout of digital radio. It was simply a technical comment on comparing DAB+ and FM audio signal to noise ratio at a reception distance of around 120km using a portable radio.

stewartjm, on Sep 25 2011, 09:26 PM, said:

Sad when you go to Dick Smith or JBHIFI here they all deny you can get it north of Caboolture. My car PURE HIGHWAY gets it most of the time from Mooloolaba to Brisbane on the Sunshine Motorway and M1.

I think it is that by being very conservative about signal coverage the retailers pretty much eliminate the possibility of a customer returning the radio for a full refund, claiming reception doesn't work.  I note that unlike TV reception where people are used to the idea of external antennas, customers have come to expect that a portable radio will work anywhere in their house, without any separate antenna.

Edited by MLXXX, 26 September 2011 - 01:52 AM.

[DigitalRadioNow]

stewartjm, on Sep 25 2011, 09:26 PM, said:

I'm in Maroochy Waters area, behind Buderim hill and just have my cheap "Warehouse Cobolt" plugged in to the TV antenna, yes I know wrong polarity, gets all the DAB fine, just have it plugged to the Amp and good speakers. No complaints here at all. Using a Kaiser Baas on the window sill it also works with some dropouts at times.
Sad when you go to Dick Smith or JBHIFI here they all deny you can get it north of Caboolture. My car PURE HIGHWAY gets it most of the time from Mooloolaba to Brisbane on the Sunshine Motorway and M1.

I can corroborate that coverage. With a Sangean DPR 69+ (a model that has bad firmware for reception), continuous reception 105 km to Coolum Primary and easily receiveable on the hills around Noosa, 120 km as mentioned.

[MLXXX]

A good news story at the end.

A friend of mine recently complained to 4MBS ClassicFM about a comment he had heard an announcer make on air about digital radios offering "CD quality". The announcer had mentioned this "fact" at the same time as promoting the 4MBS offshoot service MBS light, which is a community broadcast service with a bitrate of only 64kbps (nominal).  64kbps is perhaps a sufficient rate for non-critical listening to pop music, but it is certainly well short of CD quality. There was the potential for listeners to think that if they went and bought a digital radio they'd get "CD quality" from the 64kbps community radio broadcast.

The good news is that within 24 hours of the complaint being made, the station replied to my friend explaining that it is not station policy to describe digital radio as CD quality. And that the ad libbing announcer will be advised of this.

[stevew]

4RPH Digital is on-air in brisbane. sounds much better then 1296 am.

[MLXXX]

The new station is 4RPH Digital, 64kbps (nominal) on 202.928MHz (DAB+ Brisbane 1).

For anyone technically inclined, there's a short sample of the transport stream at http://www.dtvforum....dpost&p=1797542  which can conveniently be played with VLC media player. There's bit of background noise in the audio.

Edited by MLXXX, 18 April 2012 - 06:53 PM.

[DigitalRadioNow]

I have recently purchased a wonderful Philips DA 1200, excellent ability to receive the stations when other DAB+ radios do not.

However, it seems no matter what the radio, reception is weak in the eastern part of the Redlands. Cleveland south to Redland Bay progressively becomes worse.

[GlennP]

DigitalRadioNow, on 03 June 2012 - 03:38 AM, said:

I have recently purchased a wonderful Philips DA 1200, excellent ability to receive the stations when other DAB+ radios do not.

However, it seems no matter what the radio, reception is weak in the eastern part of the Redlands. Cleveland south to Redland Bay progressively becomes worse.

That's probably because the DAB+ signal is designed not to reach there. Beenleigh-Redland Bay Rd as it runs parallel to the river is the edge of the Brisbane licence area. The signal's designed to stop well short of the licence area edge so it doesn't overspill into the Gold Coast licence area. At some point later low power in-fill transmitters may be installed around the Redland Bay area? You have commercial radio australia to thank for the restricted DAB+ reception areas.

[alanh]

On 30 June next year channel 9 analog will be switched off. Then DAB+ channels 8A to 8D become available. So a pair of medium power DAB+ transmitters will cover the Gold Coast Licence area
http://www.acma.gov....maps/la_515.pdf A directional transmitting antenna will be used to try and follow the shape of the licence area.

They will transmit the following stations;
4ABCFM 4CRB 4ABCRN 4SEA 4ABCRR 4GLD 4JAZ 4PNN 4JJJ 4HTB 4MET 4CAB

The use of licence area ensures that regions get radio related to the licence area including advertising.

AlanH

[GoForMoe]

alanh, on 03 June 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

So a pair of medium power DAB+ transmitters will cover the Gold Coast Licence area

Source? No where has digital radio been confirmed post analogue switchoff - certainly not in the immediate period following it. Neither has 'a pair' of transmitters been confirmed - it's possible at this stage the ABC/SBS will be forced to multiplex with the commercial stations on a class B transmitter licence - similar to the situation in Canberra. Based on the number of unique licence areas around Brisbane, a multiple multiplex deployment is not possible within 5 frequency blocks.

Also note that the post refers to difficulty receiving Brisbane stations within (albeit barely) the Brisbane licence area. Not sure how a Gold Coast transmitter for different stations solves that problem.

[alanh]

Go for Moe
Just like you are in the Geelong licence are the above example is in the Gold Coast Licence area so neither will get reception of the capital city
2006 Census
Canberra 322,000
Geelong 197,000
Gold Coast 173,000
Darwin 66,000

At the Gold Coast a pair of transmitters are required because you cannot fit all the ABC/SBS services and 7 commercial/community stations + subsidiary programs on a single transmitter. This follows the pattern used for Adelaide and Perth. The ABC/SBS transmitter will be in a SFN with Brisbane and probably the Sunshine Coast.

As far as Canberra and Darwin are concerned they are trials not permanent services. In Canberra there is a shortage of channels until TEN 10 TV is switched off in Sydney. Canberra and Darwin trials are using DAB+ channel 10B. Channel 10 will eventually be used for DTV in Sydney after 2013. TV channel 9A is being used by ABC digital TV in Canberra.
It is likely for a channel reshuffle in Canberra. DTV to group A channels, with SBS going to band 3 as well.

Since Canberra also has to cover the Southern Tablelands, a decision has to be made as to which system should be used ie DAB+, DRM+ or DRM30.

There is no DAB+ licences outside mainland state capitals at the moment. The CRA is pushing DAB+ as hard as they can go, They will have to wait until analog TV is switched off in band 3 to make DAB+ channels 8A - 8D, 9A - 9D to become available. In Brisbane this is 30 June next year, Sydney, Melbourne at the end of the year.

AlanH

[Malich]

alanh, on 04 June 2012 - 03:12 AM, said:

s in the Gold Coast Licence area so neither will get reception of the capital city
2006 Census
...
Gold Coast 173,000

Don't know where you pulled that number from (or why, really) - but it's wrong. The Gold Coast licence area matches almost perfectly with the Gold Coast City boundaries (since ~1994), and the figure ACMA uses is 469,966. Current population of Gold Coast City is more like 550,000 ~ 600,000.

[DrP]

He got it from the same place he gets all his other facts and statistics.... and I'll leave that to your imagination but it certainly explains the quality.

[alanh]

Malich,
All population statistics come from the Australian Bureau of Statistics.

AlanH

[GlennP]

Still doesn't answer where you pulled the Gold Coast population figures from, the 2006 Census certainly doesn't state those figures. It says 507,876. 2010 figures are about as Malich says.

[GoForMoe]

alanh, on 04 June 2012 - 03:12 AM, said:

Just like you are in the Geelong licence are the above example is in the Gold Coast Licence area so neither will get reception of the capital city

But the above example is not in the Gold Coast Licence area. Here's Brisbane RA1 on Google Maps - note where places like 'Redland Bay' as mentioned in the post are located. While you're there - compare the ABC's coverage projections for DAB+ in the area - which miss large parts of the area referenced by DigitalRadioNow.

The reference made to the Gold Coast is part of the deliberate coverage limitation of the Brisbane stations southwards to protect the Gold Coast licence area- turning on Gold Coast transmitters does not solve the problem of the Brisbane transmitters not covering the Brisbane licence area adequately, though arguably solves the commercial reason for it. There is no guarantee regional DAB+ will see significant changes in coverage areas where it might cause overspill to increase.

DigitalRadioNow is one of the many radio listeners that unlike me are entirely within the DAB+ licence area but cannot receive the stations licensed to serve their region. Your comments are off topic, misleading and unhelpful.

Quote

At the Gold Coast a pair of transmitters are required because you cannot fit all the ABC/SBS services and 7 commercial/community stations + subsidiary programs on a single transmitter. This follows the pattern used for Adelaide and Perth. The ABC/SBS transmitter will be in a SFN with Brisbane and probably the Sunshine Coast.

Again with the word 'will' - prove that has been confirmed. An ABC/SBS SFN would make sense - but is not certain.

As the convergence review notes (again, not confirmed policy or legislation)

Quote

While this direction to facilitate digital radio in regional Australia was broadly welcomed, there is a view in the industry that 21 MHz of spectrum should be set aside to optimise adequate planning of DAB+ in regional areas. Although it would be possible to roll out DAB+ with 14 MHz, in some regions it would require commercial and public broadcasters to share a single multiplex and would restrict the localisation of their services.

http://www.dbcde.gov...inal_Report.pdf

If you can prove otherwise go ahead - otherwise please clearly mention what is your speculation and what is confirmed fact.

Quote

As far as Canberra and Darwin are concerned they are trials not permanent services. In Canberra there is a shortage of channels until TEN 10 TV is switched off in Sydney. Canberra and Darwin trials are using DAB+ channel 10B. Channel 10 will eventually be used for DTV in Sydney after 2013. TV channel 9A is being used by ABC digital TV in Canberra.
It is likely for a channel reshuffle in Canberra. DTV to group A channels, with SBS going to band 3 as well.

There is no 'shortage' of channels that would mean that Canberra couldn't use 10C right now for a full ABC/SBS multiplex. Again, you cannot state with certainty that a dual transmitter model is being used for regional DAB+ - because there has been no final decision on regional DAB+.

If you can prove otherwise go ahead - otherwise please clearly mention what is your speculation and what is confirmed fact.

[Malich]

I think I've found it...

That number is suspiciously close to the total households in Gold Coast City according to 2006 census figures (172,290). Note that while the link I've just given is not to the GCCC or ABS websites, it is the source that the GCCC website links to.

Alanh, please be very clear as to what any figures or information you link to or quote are. You yourself seem to be confused as to what the figure you quoted actually was, because your later reply / clarification itself says:

alanh, on 04 June 2012 - 02:40 PM, said:

All population statistics come from the Australian Bureau of Statistics.

(emphasis mine)

[DrP]

Its just another entry in the long long long long list of things that alanh has read, misunderstood and then presented as 'how it is' to us, apparently, less informed folk.

[AnonymouslyBad]

DigitalRadioNow, on 03 June 2012 - 03:38 AM, said:

I have recently purchased a wonderful Philips DA 1200, excellent ability to receive the stations when other DAB+ radios do not.

However, it seems no matter what the radio, reception is weak in the eastern part of the Redlands. Cleveland south to Redland Bay progressively becomes worse.

The simple reason for this, as far as I know, is terrain - most of the Redlands is cut off from Brisbane proper by all those hills. Mt Coot-tha generally serves Brisbane incredibly well, but this must be the one main trouble spot, with lots of tall TV antennas, etc. especially in the southern parts. I've noticed that even FM radio - while it's listenable - has noticeable problems that you'd usually expect to see well and truly into the Gold Coast.

GoForMoe, on 04 June 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

But the above example is not in the Gold Coast Licence area. Here's Brisbane RA1 on Google Maps - note where places like 'Redland Bay' as mentioned in the post are located. While you're there - compare the ABC's coverage projections for DAB+ in the area - which miss large parts of the area referenced by DigitalRadioNow.

Yep, as a Brisbane resident I can say that does look to follow city boundaries exactly. Redlands and Logan are part of Brisbane RA1 in their entirety.
I did think the Gold Coast license used to include those outer suburbs, maybe overlapping with Brisbane, but perhaps that's a thing of the past.