236 replies to this topic

[M'bozo]

diesel, on Mar 26 2009, 07:19 PM, said:

...and probably the same can be said for their TV capabilities

Careful.

I have one of their last CRT wide-screen models.

The sound this set produces is such that I rarely, if ever, have my external amplifier going when I am watching it  

[diesel]

Interesting article on WizTV (Sound + Image news) about Mpeg5 broadcasts and the ability for broadcasters to "disable" users sets/boxes if they skip adverts, as well as 3D TV and 3D EPG - now that sounded good. I'll post a link when available

This whole Freeview thing is just so littered with too much scuttlebug and misinformation, how is Mr and Mrs Joe Average going to make sense of it all???

Edited by diesel, 05 April 2009 - 11:18 AM.

[pgdownload]

diesel, on Apr 5 2009, 11:17 AM, said:

how is Mr and Mrs Joe Average going to make sense of it all?

Same way they always do. Be completely disinterested in it until there's a box sitting on a shelf and a salesman willing to explain it Most of the time, an extremely effective approach

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[diesel]

The saga of Freeview continues

Quote

Just when you thought digital television couldn't get any more confusing, it turns out about half of the Freeview-branded digital TV equipment going on sale next month could be obsolete by Christmas.

Many devices carrying the Freeview logo in May will not be compatible with upcoming Freeview services - such as a standardised on-screen Electronic Program Guide - according to Fairfax's Livewire section.

These features, which may be launched by the end of the year, will probably rely on a technology called MHEG-5. Freeview is still negotiating its MHEG-5 licensing, and hopes to have it sorted in the next few months, but manufacturers will be allowed to keep selling gear without MHEG-5 for another three years...

Meanwhile some brands such as DGTEC have sunk a lot of money into equipping their Freeview-badged gear with MHEG-5 from day one, while others such as Beyonwiz are releasing "Phase 1" Freeview boxes without MHEG-5 - waiting for Freeview to confirm that MHEG-5 is a goer. The Beyonwiz gear will probably be upgradeable to MHEG-5 later, although there's no guarantee all "Phase 1" gear from every vendor will be upgradeable to "Phase 2". There's also no requirement for manufacturers to label their equipment as "Phase 1" or "Phase 2".

[gkelly]

For those that don't want to search

MHEG-5, or ISO/IEC 13522-5, is part of a set of international standards relating to the presentation of multimedia information, standardised by the Multimedia and Hypermedia Experts Group (MHEG). It is most commonly used as a language to describe interactive television services.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MHEG-5

[Refidim]

MHEG-5 is another white elephant. MHEG 5 requires all the Freeview broadcasters to carry each others EPG.  This has so far been ruled out by the commercial broadcasters and therefore unlikely to get off the ground.  At the end of the day it’s little or no much benefit to the current DVB standard EPG.  

The whole Freeview is a marketing scam to get STB manufactures to pay royalties for something that is really no different to what is available now.  It’s a means of legally setting up road blocks in your neighborhood and asking you to pay for passage.

Be sure the Freeview compliance costs will be passed on to the consumer.    Remember Teac’s nine interactive. It lasted 6 months.

[NoRelationToNed]

I notice the government's current digital TV ad campaign pointedly makes absolutely no reference to Freeview. It instead encourages us to make the switch to digital asap.  ...and has the Freeview campaign gone quiet too?  hmmmmm

Edited by NoRelationToNed, 13 April 2009 - 01:23 PM.

[diesel]

NoRelationToNed, on Apr 13 2009, 01:22 PM, said:

I notice the government's current digital TV ad campaign pointedly makes absolutely no reference to Freeview. It instead encourages us to make the switch to digital asap.  ...and has the Freeview campaign gone quiet too?  hmmmmm

I thought that was a smart move on the part of the Govt. Not only does not mention Freeview (a commercial product) and therefore avoid any confusion, it is simple enough for most people to understand. The only thing that makes me shake my head a bit is the identification stickers they show on the advert. Another bl##dy marketing sticker like the HD Ready/Full HD tick thing that was trying to be a universal standard to clear up the whole HD Ready/Full HD confusion

[Timmy Downawell]

diesel, on Apr 13 2009, 01:28 PM, said:

I thought that was a smart move on the part of the Govt. Not only does not mention Freeview (a commercial product) and therefore avoid any confusion, it is simple enough for most people to understand. The only thing that makes me shake my head a bit is the identification stickers they show on the advert. Another bl##dy marketing sticker like the HD Ready/Full HD tick thing that was trying to be a universal standard to clear up the whole HD Ready/Full HD confusion

I totally agree.

There are three labels:

Digital TV Ready - Standard Definition
Digital TV Ready - High Definition
Digital TV Capable - only with a set top box

It's all a bit murky, as previously, HD sets without an HD tuner were referred to as "HD Ready" it meant they could display HD but only with an HD STB. Now if a TV is "Ready" it doesn't need one. Let the confusion reign.

I think if they are going to label analogue sets as part of this scheme, the "Digital TV Capable" signs/stickers should be half the size of the "Digital Ready" ones, so that the digital TVs stand out more.


As for Freeview, their second TV campaign begins on 26 April.

[dax]

Refidim, on Apr 13 2009, 12:42 PM, said:

MHEG-5 is another white elephant. MHEG 5 requires all the Freeview broadcasters to carry each others EPG.  This has so far been ruled out by the commercial broadcasters and therefore unlikely to get off the ground.

No it hasnt - thats the whole point of Freeview, its a joint venture by all the FTA (including ABC + SBS as well as commercials). While its mostly a marketing effort it does include combining epg data.

This combined epg also needs manufacturer support as it wasnt going to be dvb based.
At the moment its delayed. It hasnt been ruled out (yet!)

[pgdownload]

Timmy Downawell, on Apr 13 2009, 01:55 PM, said:

It's all a bit murky, as previously, HD sets without an HD tuner were referred to as "HD Ready" it meant they could display HD but only with an HD STB.

By this definition any TV is HD Ready. I believe it meant the TV could display HD content (without a STB) but not necessarily HD PQ. Hence the floods of 480 line "HD Ready" Plasmas.

[Timmy Downawell]

pgdownload, on Apr 13 2009, 03:45 PM, said:

480 line "HD Ready" Plasmas.

Well, I don't remember that. I only recall plasma and LCD screens with HD resolution (but only containing analogue tuners) being plugged as "HD ready".

[rjh]

dax, on Apr 13 2009, 02:54 PM, said:

No it hasnt - thats the whole point of Freeview, its a joint venture by all the FTA (including ABC + SBS as well as commercials). While its mostly a marketing effort it does include combining epg data.

This combined epg also needs manufacturer support as it wasnt going to be dvb based.
At the moment its delayed. It hasnt been ruled out (yet!)

Is the MHEG 5 introduction (if it occurs) likely to be something proprietary that only devices with a Freeview tick could access or could a PVR manufacturer license the MHEG 5 technology and access any additional content but also have ad skipping in a device?

[lewdannie]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but the latest TiVo newsletter had this section about FreeView (I added the bold)

You would have been reading a lot in the papers recently about Freeview and about digital television switchover. You may be wondering what this all means and whether your TiVo media device fits the bill? Well fear not! The TiVo media device is digital television ready and is Freeview approved. See www.tivo.com.au/freeview for more details.

Edited by lewdannie, 13 April 2009 - 05:26 PM.

[diesel]

Timmy Downawell, on Apr 13 2009, 03:53 PM, said:

Well, I don't remember that. I only recall plasma and LCD screens with HD resolution (but only containing analogue tuners) being plugged as "HD ready".

768p plasma and LCDs (with/out HD tuners built-in) were labeled as HD Ready meaning they could display a HD picture IIRC

rjh, on Apr 13 2009, 04:36 PM, said:

Is the MHEG 5 introduction (if it occurs) likely to be something proprietary that only devices with a Freeview tick could access or could a PVR manufacturer license the MHEG 5 technology and access any additional content but also have ad skipping in a device?

That would be in direct violation of Freeview and leave the manufacturer subject to litigation I would have thought.

It would be counter productive IMO, as the manufacturer would need to factor the additional MHEG5 licensing cost into the product, but not be able to advertise it as Freeview EPG capable, so it would be overlooked by the masses

[diesel]

lewdannie, on Apr 13 2009, 05:26 PM, said:

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but the latest TiVo newsletter had this section about FreeView (I added the bold)

You would have been reading a lot in the papers recently about Freeview and about digital television switchover. You may be wondering what this all means and whether your TiVo media device fits the bill? Well fear not! The TiVo media device is digital television ready and is Freeview approved. See www.tivo.com.au/freeview for more details.

Well I think most people assumed as much, but it's good to see it being confirmed.

I wonder if they will charge existing users a fee to "upgrade" to Freeview status. Seems $even may have missed an opportunity for more $'s here.

[Timmy Downawell]

rjh, on Apr 13 2009, 04:36 PM, said:

Is the MHEG 5 introduction (if it occurs) likely to be something proprietary that only devices with a Freeview tick could access or could a PVR manufacturer license the MHEG 5 technology and access any additional content but also have ad skipping in a device?

Any manufacturer can get a MHEG-5 licence if they pay for it. Apparently the Freeview EPG could be encrypted so that only approved boxes can decrypt it.

Having said that, the non-Freeview boxes will still be able to offer other MHEG-5 apps, should the networks actually offer them. And they'll still offer the EIT EPG which we currently get (for as long as the networks provide that).

[dax]

rjh, on Apr 13 2009, 04:36 PM, said:

Is the MHEG 5 introduction (if it occurs) likely to be something proprietary that only devices with a Freeview tick could access or could a PVR manufacturer license the MHEG 5 technology and access any additional content but also have ad skipping in a device?

I believe its meant to be proprietry.
But Im not sure of the details of how its being implemented or what is the legal situation.
I do know that was the intention.

[boric]

dax, on Apr 13 2009, 08:58 PM, said:

I believe its meant to be proprietry.
But Im not sure of the details of how its being implemented or what is the legal situation.
I do know that was the intention.

No, MHEG-5 can't be propriety in so far as it isn't controlled by Freeview, so how can that be the intention? I don't think MHEG5 itself even has licence fees - it's free to implement AFAIK. "MHEG-5, or ISO/IEC 13522-5, is part of a set of international standards relating to the presentation of multimedia information, standardised by the Multimedia and Hypermedia Experts Group (MHEG). It is most commonly used as a language to describe interactive television services."

There may very well be Freeview Australia extensions to MHEG-5 that are proprietry and need to be licensed (by dropping ad skip functions), but MHEG-5 is a standard that anyone can implement. New Zealand, for example, have made additions to the UK standard (created in 2003!). MHEG-5 is not new (it's been around since the 90s) or difficult (there are known brands selling STBS and PVRs in NZ/UK markets with MHEG-5 support). Unless Freeview Australia makes it difficult.

The most likely scenario is that the MHEG-5 EPG is 'encrypted' or can only be displayed if a manufacturer has licensed the necessary 'decryption' extensions.

But don't mistake the technology with the usage of the technology. A manufacturer should be able to provide MHEG-5 support without Freeview certification, although this means you may not get the 'new' EPG you may still get other new functions (e.g. a new teletext, 'interactive' TV and other rubbishstuff).

How many consumers will want to buy a non-freeview certified device though? Will they realise that this is what they'll be missing - this is what New Zealand's MHEG-5 EPG (used to) looks like in MythTV (Linux): http://www.mythtv.co...-nz-mheg-5-epg/

[GregA]

In defence of Freeview, us not knowing their plans is not the same thing as them not having clear plans. That said... who knows... the FTAs aren't very experienced at "co-operating". The first ads were clearly Teasers.

I'll be very interested to see how well they educate us with the release of Freeview approved PVRs and their new advertising in May.

[dax]

GregA, on Apr 14 2009, 09:58 AM, said:

In defence of Freeview, us not knowing their plans is not the same thing as them not having clear plans.

Problem is that some of their plans have been done poorly - the epg is probably the main one.
They have a clear plan, just left it late to start it and to include the manufacturers. So its not going to happen for "launch time"

Quote

That said... who knows... the FTAs aren't very experienced at "co-operating". The first ads were clearly Teasers.
I'll be very interested to see how well they educate us with the release of Freeview approved PVRs and their new advertising in May.

Well a lot of that comes down to the marketing people.
There is always a balance between being factual/detailed and being easy to consume and attractive.
I think they missed badly on their first attempt - probably did more harm than good.

The problem they have now is that the biggest selling point of Freeview was going to be the epg.
Without that you can buy anyone elses box, including ones with Freeview banned features!
MPEG4 has also been thrown into the equation, but its not 100% that will happen anytime soon.

Hopefully they can work in conjunction with the Govt "digital ready" ads to the market moved over.

[pgdownload]

dax, on Apr 14 2009, 10:39 AM, said:

the biggest selling point of Freeview was going to be the epg.

The networks don't actually have to 'sell' much at all really. There's a growing awareness that TVs are about to be shut down. The consumer are increasingly demanding to buy.

What Freeview have to offer (and what will likely cut through most of the 'fog') is the simple phrase, "If you're looking to buy equipment that will be fully usable for the next 5-10 years then look for the Freeview brand."

I've no doubt that any ads will talk of

- Lots of new channels
- High Definition broadcasts
- The seven day electronic programming guide (with glossy visuals)
- A new era of television
- etc.

But all essentially saying that things are changing and you need to spend your money now => Look for the Freeview logo to make sure what you buy will still work 5 years from now.

Basically the same great pitch that sells high end Monster HDMI cables - They claim to provide (and do deliver) a certain excellent functionality, they just don't tell you that you can get the exact same functionality for much much less elsewhere if you care look.

The "Freeview" brand really only offers reassurance (ironically misplaced given the two phase roll in of functionality ) and as we know is in some ways a poorer product (No ad skip) than non-branded equipment can be. But its re-assurance that they will be selling, not a feature set IMO.

0.02

Peter Gillespie

[diesel]

It would be a great opportunity for PVR manufacturers to advertise their wares and the potential additional benefits PVRs have over a STB. They could ride on the back of this Govt/industry advertising to help push their own products, but there is sadly not a lot of advertising of PVRs (TiVo excluded)

[achjimmy]

diesel, on Apr 14 2009, 01:56 PM, said:

It would be a great opportunity for PVR manufacturers to advertise their wares and the potential additional benefits PVRs have over a STB. They could ride on the back of this Govt/industry advertising to help push their own products, but there is sadly not a lot of advertising of PVRs (TiVo excluded)

Interestly other PVR manufacturers seem to be piggybacking on too the Tivo promotions througth. Although not conclusive a JB store manager told me they had increased sales of both Beyonwiz and topfield considerably as people became aware of Tivo and looked further at the products available.

[Timmy Downawell]

pgdownload, on Apr 14 2009, 11:06 AM, said:

Look for the Freeview logo to make sure what you buy will still work 5 years from now.

Absolutely this is the angle they should be pushing. "Don't just buy any set top box, get one that's future proof. Look for the Freeview logo."*



*I hereby declare copyright on that line!