1030 replies to this topic

[pgdownload]

Oz PVRs Compared

Some General Information:

All PVRs allow you to hook up a DVDR and record content from one box to the other. Some can transfer files directly to a PC for editing and burning.

The ICE and Tivo third party EPGs are both updated once a day and are essentially the same as you’d read in your TV guide. Last minute changes in any scheduling (eg cancelling or over running) will not be handled.

“Season Pass” refers to the PVRs capability to automatically set timers each week for user chosen shows that reflects changes in scheduling.

ICE EPG is a legal seven day EPG subscription service (costing under $2 a week). It also offers IceTV Interactive allowing users to set timers via the internet for some PVRs as well as have timers automatically set (ie Season Pass). Note ICE recently won a long running case over their EPG bought by Channel 9.

The generally available FTA EPG is of lesser quality than the third party offerings. SBS is still missing, some channels are only 4 days and formatting and content is of variable quality. Its still quite usable for browsing and setting timers from, especially for just what's on tonight.

PVRs in general apply padding (automatically and/or manually) to help ensure all of a show is recorded.

These PVRs are all full 2.0 twin tuner models. This means you can set two overlapping timers and watch a pre-recorded show at the same time.

Note that picture quality (PQ) for all these units is fairly similar. More variation is usually found due to TV settings, cable types, TV resolutions, seating distance and personal preference.

If you have Foxtel then it is highly recommend you look to getting the IQ (SD) or IQ2 (HD) as your primary PVR (only the Beyonwiz P2 can record Foxtel)

Freeview:

Freeview is largely a marketing campaign by FTA networks.

Its key development is that at some point in 2009 (starting from March) each network will begin offering 2 SD channels and 1 HD channel. The content of each channel is still largely unknown, however its likely that the 2 SD channels will each have unique content and the HD channel will show a HD version (simulcast) of one or both (swapping between the two) SD channels. As is currently the case, the current SD channel will simulcast what is being broadcast over analogue. Note that there is only just room in the spectrum for each network to show 2 SD and 1 HD channels (ie there will definitely not be any network showing 2 HD channels). Channel Ten has made its new SD channel a 24/7 sport channel and the HD channel will be dedicated to simulcasting this channel (ie no drama will be shown on Ten HD from March).

The other main component of the Freeview brand is the EPG. This EPG will be an alternative EPG available to new STBs only late in the year (2009). Until it comes online all boxes will use the current standard EPG. It will be free (if you have the hardware) but the Freeview EPG will only be made available to boxes that do not allow ad skipping (Fast Forwarding to x60 is ok though).

Note that all existing hardware (STBs/PVRs/etc) will be able to access all Freeview channels (obviously SD boxes will only have access to SD channels while HD boxes will have access to both SD and HD channels). Freeview have also stated that the existing FTA EPG that current boxes receive will continue. Freeview will offer a consistent seven day EPG for all channels that will be available almost immediately after turning a STB on (ie no need to surf channels to load up the EPG data). It is not known if the quality of the current FTA EPG will be improved to match the Freeview EPG, however Freeview have implied that both EPGs will be sourced from the same raw data.

Initially, Freeview will simply be a common OSD across all qualifying boxes (ie viewing the Freeview EPG on any STB will look identical). Complying recorders (ie not allowing ad skipping) should be able to set timers via this EPG. In 2010 Freeview may look to provide additional functionality (such as embedding up to the minute accurate information about what's currently on, or enabling season pass capabilities)

Please read more about Freeview and its restrictions and benefits here. In particular be aware that most early model Freeview PVRs will not be able to display the Freeview EPG.

Tivo

Harddrive: 160Gb
Cost: $700 (with optional $60 wireless adapter)
Link: https://www.tivo.com...cifications.php
Feature: Quality free 7 day EPG (via broadband)
Freeview: Tivo is Freeview compatible out of the box.

Overview:
The Tivo is a polished PVR that almost any user should find it simple to operate. Setting timers is especially easy, however the remote and user interface have been designed to make navigating and playback very straight forward. The hard drive is pretty small for a HD recorder. The Tivo is available now in stores and online. Tivo recently released a Home Networking Package ($200) that allows recordings to be offloaded to a PC. They also released an official 500Gb external drive ($300)

Pros:
• Very intuitive and robust interface – usable by anyone
• Full 7 day EPG (for all channels)
• Optional wireless adapter ($60)
• Simple and effective season pass capability
• Resume Play & Pause Live TV (no book marking)
• 14 day money back guarantee (for online but also in some stores)
•      Able to pass through broadcast signal unaltered
•      Resumes current recording after a power failure (5 minute gap).
•      On Demand Movie download feature via broadband
•      Firmware upgrades handled by Tivo remotely
• Optional Home Networking Package (HNP) -  $230
• Optional 1Tb external drive - $300

Cons:

• Installing your own hard drive requires a PC and special freeware
• Must be connected to the internet to function
• Firmware/feature updates are not optional
• Hard drive does not spin down unless turned off
• No standby mode - power up takes several minutes.
• Cannot use/display the broadcast FTA EPG
• US model 30 second Ad Skip feature not available. Unit capable of smooth x32 FF and REW
• Cannot join back to back timers on the same channel (requires both tuners)

Toppy 7000 and 7100

7000
Link: http://www.itopfield...ail.asp?idx=220
Harddrive: 250Gb
Cost: $550 (plus optional ICE EPG subscription)

7100
Link: http://www.itopfield...ail.asp?idx=220
Harddrive: 320Gb
Cost: $750 (plus optional ICE EPG subscription)

Freeview: Topfield have recently released a Freeview version (the 7150). This model appears not to allow recordings to be offloaded to a PC, cannot access the Freeview EPG and has ad skip buttons disabled.

Overview:
The 7000 and 7100 are very similar to operate - the main difference being the 7100 offers wireless connectivity while the 7000 has none. After a shaky start with the firmware last year the latest releases are very good (and releases continue). The HD Toppy’s are primarily designed to provide a quality digital TV recording and viewing experience.

Pros:
• Slick and usable interface and OSD.
• Internet connection optional for day to day use.
• Does what it does (records and plays TV) extremely well.
• Uses FTA broadcast EPG
• Third party EPG can optionally be uploaded via memory stick or internet connection
• Plug in an external drive for immediate expansion/transfer
• Resume Play, Book Marking, Pause Live TV
• Hardrive can easily be upgraded to any size (up to 1Tb).
• Excellent ad skip abilities and excellent FF and REW
• Fully integrates ICE and ICE Interactive if subscribed (Auto and Remote Timer setting).
• Can download shows direct to a PC for use in editing software
• Excellent forum support
• Able to pass through broadcast signal unaltered

Cons:
• No ability to play other media formats (eg AVI)
• File transfer to PC only via memory stick or external drive on the 7000
• Switching between HD and SD can cause the volume to change appreciably.

beyonwiz H1, P1, P2, S1
P1
Link: http://www.beyonwiz....P1_overview.asp
Hardrive: 250Gb (now mostly 320Gb)
Cost $650 (plus optional EPG subscription)

P2
Link: http://www.beyonwiz....P2_overview.asp
Cost: $950 (plus optional EPG subscription)
Hardrive: 320Gb
Feature: Built in converter for recording from PayTV

S1
Link: http://www.beyonwiz....S1_overview.asp
Cost: $850 (plus optional EPG subscription)
Hardrive: 250Gb (now mostly 320Gb)
Feature: Built in DVD player & wireless connection

H1
Link: http://www.beyonwiz....H1_overview.asp
Cost: $300 (plus optional harddrive)
Hardrive: Not included (can be easily added to
Feature: Cheap slave unit providing remote access to primary BW unit. Stand alone single tuner PVR when a hard drive is added.

Freeview: BeyonWiz have recently released a Freeview version (the FV-L1). This model appears not to allow recordings to be offloaded to a PC, cannot access the Freeview EPG and has ad skip buttons disabled.

Overview:
The beyonwiz range are probably the most versatile and powerful PVRs on the market to date. They are designed not only as PVRs but also media centres that can stream/transfer a number of common formats from a PC (AVI, VOB, etc.). All models offer wired connectivity (ethernet) while the S1 is also wireless. The P2 offers the capability to record from any analogue source (eg Foxtel). The Beyonwiz range can also easily be networked any other BW units in the house or by adding a relatively low cost H1 unit. Generally reported as an excellent PVR with work still needed on the Media Centre features.

Pros:
• Very usable interface although some options are a little quirky.
• Play a range of formats: mkv, wmv, avi, mpg, vob, mp4, asf, tp, trp (via streaming or on drive)
• Internet connection optional for day to day use.
• Can use FTA broadcast EPG
• Third party EPG via PC connection
• Easily access the main PVR in any room via any other BW models.
• Plug in an external drive for immediate expansion/transfer
• Resume Play, Book Marking, Pause Live TV
• Hardrive can easily be upgraded up to 500Gb.
• Good file editing abilities (trim etc.)
• Fully definable ad skipping (four buttons)
• Fully integrates ICE and ICE Interactive if subscribed (Auto and Remote Timer setting).
• Can download shows direct to a PC for use in editing software
• Excellent forum support
• Includes inbuilt memory card readers

Cons:
• Built in DVD player capability not recommended by some users.
• Media centre features are robust but not as versatile as dedicate players would be.
• FF and REW are less responsive (smooth) than other PVRs.
• Remote is less ergonomic than other models

Panasonic DMR-XW300 and DMR-XW500

DMR-XW300
Link: http://panasonic.com...m?objectID=4281
Cost: $900
Harddrive: 250Gb
Feature: SD DVD Player and Recorder

DMR-BW500
Link: http://panasonic.com...m?objectID=4337
Cost: $1700
Harddrive: 500Gb
Feature: Bluray and SD DVD Player and Recorder

Overview:
These units are pricey but the BW500 can be a good all in one package if you are also yet to jump into BluRay. These units are so far unique in that they have both HD tuners and a DVDR built in. By all accounts a reliable and ergonomic device that preform as advertised with some nice features. One concern appears to be with the BW500 BluRay recording capability which will not play on most other Bluray players. While separate PVRs and DVDR can be got for under the cost of the XW300 there's definite appeal in a one box solution.

Pros:
• Record (SD & HD) digital content direct to a DVD or BluRay.
• Watch DVD/BluRay/HDD while tuners are also recording
• EPG with categories
• Full array of output connections
• SDHC card reader
• AVCHD recording and playback
• Runs quietly and is stable
• Very precise editing features
• SD DVD Region free
• Uses FTA EPG with a good EPG interface
• Bookmark and user defined ad skip
• Over the Air (OTA) automatic firmware upgrades
• Can record from analogue sources (ie PayTV)
• Resume Play, Book Marking, Pause Live TV

Cons:
• BD-R burnt on this machine may not work on other BD players
• No DivX playback
• Ethernet only for FW update (No transfer of files to a PC)
• Timeshift buffer needs to be activated by user.
• Not BD 2.0 compliant
• Blank RW Bluray discs are expensive
• BluRay Region locked
• Not ICE EPG compatible

Homecast HT8000

Link: http://www.homecasta...p?SKU=HT8000PVR
Harddrive: 500Gb
Cost: $550
Feature: New firmware to cache FTA EPG so it is immediately available after power up.

Overview:
Until recently the Homecast PVR was a good cheap HD PVR that while occasionally 'quirky', performed as well as other more expensive units for less cost. Recent improvements to competitor firmware and price drops have made this difference less apparent. Firmware has been updated several times in 2009 and the Ethernet capablity enabled.

Pros:
• Uses FTA EPG (Guide info for 11 channels can be viewed simultaneously)
• Files can be downloaded via USB 2.0 to a PC for editing
• Files can be copied to/read from (not played) a connected USB 2.0 hard disk
• Remote control ergonomic if not stylish, controls very responsive
• Has limited editing features but are cumbersome to use
• Photo viewer of external drives via USB port
• Comes with IR extender (use remote behind cupboard doors)
• HDMI cable provided
• Very fast boot time (4 seconds)
• Rapid 15 sec ad skip button
• Book Marking, Pause Live TV, Resume Play
• Ethernet connectivity to a PC now enabled

Cons:
• Fan will not power down in standby.
• Not ICE EPG compatible
• OSD and menus good but small text
• Supplied manual poor but improved version available for download
• Can freeze occasionally for some users

Digitalview DVR-810

Link: http://www.digitalvi...au/dvr-810.html
Cost: $1100 or $1300 depending on drive size
Hardrive: 320 Gb or 500 Gb
Feature: Very reliable recorder with good ad skipping and editing features

Overview:
The DVR-810 is an expensive PVR. It may well be due for a sharp price drop soon in response to most other HD PVR manufacturers already dropping prices to the sub $700 range. Its main strength is it does what it does very well - reliably records and skips over ads easily on playback. Its main failing would seem to be the decision not to enable users to offload files to a PC for editing. Now that the major HD PVR brands have mostly sorted reliability issues Digitalview will need to offer something more than basic PVR functionality for the price premium.

Pros
• Rock solid timers
• Bookmark, Edit and Merge capability
• Very good user programmable forward and backward skip function
• Inbuilt RS232 Control Automation etc.
• External IR extension input for hidden installations
• Resume play

Cons
• Cannot transfer files to and from a PC
• Cannot display any other media formats
• Timeshift buffer needs to be activated by user.
• Not ICE EPG compatible
• Interface lacks polish

Yess 4688U

Link: http://crazystu.com.au/
Cost: $450 or $530 depending on drive size
Hardrive: 500 Gb or 1000 Gb
Feature: Reliable low cost Twin Tuner PVR

Overview:
The Yess 4688U is touted as a good value PVR. As a solid unit that allows units to record and watch shows and transfer them off to a PC or Mac (via an external USB drive) the Yess is reliable and performs well. The user interface is quite functional if somewhat basic and ad skipping poorly implemented (FF and REW work fine though). Yess continue to release new firmware so new features and functionality may continue to appear. Overall the Yess 4688U appears to be a reliable PVR that offers a good range of features at a nice price point.

Pros
• A reliable True 2.0 twin tuner PVR priced under $500
• Integrated external hard drive option able to offload recordings to a PC
• Can record overlapping back to back timers on the same channel
• Can apply multiple tags to recordings and filter accordingly
• Good remote with dedicated TV control buttons (able to learn)
• MPEG4 compatible (useful if it is ever broadcast)
• Runs cool and quiet
• Fair remote with quick channel change. Has some dedicated TV buttons (POWER, VOLUME, AV)
• Can attach an external drive for recording or copying files to and transfer to a PC.
• Has automatic pre and post padding for timers
• Has Teletext and Closed Captions
• Timeshift Buffer of 2hrs 10min
• Will turn back on after a power failure and resume (or fire) any timers that should be recording.
• Handy category view of all channels in EPG (eg filter to all SPORTS)

Cons
• No sVideo output (Composite, Component and HDMI)
• Ad skipping functionality available but frustratingly implemented (Standard FF and REW work fine though)
• Big ad skip buttons are locked at 12% of file size.
• Trimming doesn't reduce file size (although trimming is fast and invisible and able to be reversed)
• No Resume play feature (Bookmarks available)
• Can't create subdirectories however a similar tag and filter option is provided.
• Trimming files hides data only (ie doesn't reduce file size)
• Auto Pre-Padding causes incorrect timer firing (can be disabled)
• No grid EPG - Basic but functional, industry standard, one channel/one page EPG.

Strong SRT 5492

Link: http://www.csvav.com..._digital_tv.htm
Cost: $600
Harddrive: 500Gb
Feature: Easy slide in and out hard drive

Pros
• Resumes current recording after a power failure.
• 1080i/720p/576i/p Video Resolution Output Capabilities
• Ice TV Capable via LAN
• 2 x USB 2.0 Host for Firmware Update and External HDD adaption
• Component, SVideo & HDMI output
• Digital Audio Optical Output
• Closed Captions & Teletext
• DVB/T,MPEG-2 /MPEG-4Compliant
• MEPS compliant (uses <1W on standby)
• Fan Cooled

Edited by pgdownload, 23 February 2010 - 09:51 AM.

[tonymy01]

The Topfield 7000 isn't really "wired".   It has no network connectivity.    Thus for all the great ICE features, the 7100 is really the choice for the HD Toppies (I can't imagine anyone would be too happy downloading EPG to a USB stick once a day to get ICE EPG on the 7000!!).
The Beyonwiz doesn't have 3rd party EPG upload (yet).    It supports ICE EPG (and of course broadcast EPG) only, using the built in Beyonwiz options for enabling the ICE connectivity.
We have managed to provide third party timer upload using a compiled background wiz application that needs to have the f/w hacked to load, and using either PHP web interface for timer edit/add/delete, or using a modded perlTGD which will search for favourites and upload timers (like the old TED/S for the 5K).   I can see what the ICE EPG format is on the HDD, so it should be relatively simple for someone with some time up their sleeves to provide 3rd party EPG upload though.
Regards

[twitch]

Great post.

There's just a couple of typos though under the Beyonwiz's

"• Third party EPG via PC connection" -> in fact the BW's can access IceTV directly so long as they are connected to the internet. No PC is required.

"• Resume Play, Book Marking, Pause Live TV" -> reusme play is in the current beta, but not in the offical release FW

"• Hardrive can easily be upgraded to any size." -> up to 500Gb

"• Full ad skip abilities and excellent FF and REW " -> I think this point is a little generous. It has non configurable 15sec skip, and smooth FF/REW upto 4x, after which it's becomes jerky frame skipping.

"• Media centre features are less robust than the core PVR features" -> in fact they are IMHO robust, but for pictures and music they lack features and are very clunky to use. Video is fine though.


I think a significant pro is also "the ability to remotely set timers*".
* via IceTV subscription

[diesel]

Great work PG. Hopefully you can get it added as a "sticky". Don't forget the Homecast, Digitalview and Strong 5490. Maybe add a quick oneliner about the the older LGs, Sony and Toshi?

Quick comment on TiVo - HDD can be upgraded though this needs the user to know what they are doing and a bit of formatting work.

Quick comment on the BW - good FF/RR not excellent, and resume play and copy contents to BW HDD should be added in next FW (currently in Beta Testing).

Both TiVo and BW can share contents between each other (not just the DP-H1)

[kwarrior]

PQ...

Would you like to include the Digital View DVR 810 to the mix ?

[prl]

pgdownload, on Jul 21 2008, 01:11 PM, said:

...
ICE EPG is a legal subscription 7 day EPG service (costing around $2 a week). It also offers RemoteICE allowing users to set timers via the internet as well as have timers automatically set (ie Season Pass)
...

What was once called IceTV Remote is now called IceTV Interactive.

[pgdownload]

kwarrior, on Jul 21 2008, 01:39 PM, said:

Would you like to include the Digital View DVR 810 to the mix ?

Yep, I think the Strong, Digital View and Homecast should also be there. However I have little direct experience with these units. Any one want to pull together some info on them like what I have mentioned above it would be good (I only have som much spare (and not spare time))

Regards

Peter Gillespie

PS Updated deisel - tx. Am looking eventually for a pinned post but hope to get a document that most members are happy with. IMO most PVRs on the market are now in the 'reasonably behaved' category and we can start just looking for desired features.

[pgdownload]

Thanks guys, hopefully added most in.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[Inego]

Pete

I didn't make my comment this AM with any real expectation it would happen - but again you, as a stalwart of this community have taken on the task.

Thanks so much for your work!

Kent

[ozdoc]

PG
Maybe you should change the thread title to "The HD PVR Comparison", for clarity.

[dax]

Would be nice to note which have HDMI.

And as others have said about adding some other models, I think the other dedicated pvrs would be better than going to the dvdr or blu-ray recorder. A bit more "apples to apples" at least at the start!

Oh and good work!

[hobotivo]

Hi Peter,

Good idea!
I'll toss in a few comments regarding the legality of IceTV and, of course, the TiVo.  

General: I really prefer the correct TiVo over Tivo. You probably know this
      

Quote

ICE EPG is a legal subscription 7 day EPG service (costing around $2 a week). It also offers RemoteICE allowing users to set timers via the internet as well as have timers automatically set (ie Season Pass).

The legality of IceTV remains very much in question. The most recent verdict of the Federal Court went against them, and they are now seeking special leave to appeal to the High Court.  If leave to appeal is granted then the battle continues, if not then IceTV have lost, and then Channel Nine's legal costs (which the Federal Court ruled must be paid by IceTV) will most likely put them out of business.  I don't like it at all, but I'm very scared this will happen.  

The High Court itself decides which appeals it will hear, and it doesn't chose to hear very many.  See this listfor the results of recent leave applications and you will note they are almost all refused, frequently with costs.  On a quick scan of the first couple of hundred I'd estimate that no more than 1 in 30 applications are granted.  
  
I fear that many people will accuse me of saying this only to promote TiVo at the expense of other units, but I would be very cautious of purchasing any device which depended, for any features which were important to me, on the on-going viability of IceTV.  (This is not to suggest that the on-going viability of TiVo's EPG will be any better, but at least it doesn't have a dirty great law suit hanging over it!)    

Quote

The Tivo is available now in store (Harvey Norman) and online.

Not online yet.  Not till official release date, 29 July 2008.

Quote

• Optional wireless stick ($60)

Prefer the term "wireless adapter"  There's nothing "stick like" about it.

Quote

• Resume Play, Book Marking, Pause Live TV

No bookmarking as some folks define it, just an automatic "resume play"

Quote

• 14 day money back guarantee

Only if purchased directly from TiVo, there is no requirement for dealers to offer this]

Quote

• Hardrive cannot be upgraded to a larger size *

Adding a large internal disk is possible by those not scared of voiding their warranty and breaching TiVo's terms of service. The ability to follow a set of instructions is required.  Australian users have reported success with 750Gb and 1 Tb drives.

Cheers
Ron

Edited by hobotivo, 21 July 2008 - 03:32 PM.

[pgdownload]

Thanks for the comments guys. Some comments of my own:

Yep the ICETV 'situation' is difficult to convey and definitely uncertain. I can't provide a simple 'summary' without IOM badly prejudicing the reader. As far as I can see the current ICE setup is seen as 'fine'. However if legal cost for past cases are awarded against ICE (as it currently stands) then that might be too much for the company.

Tony, I'm staying 'legit' so far in my definition of third party EPGs (ie just ICE and Tivo). I'm really unsure what HD machines can and can't handle fourth? party EPGs but I might add some comment to the possibility (as it is a potential, if illegal, feature of some machines)

Dax, so far as I know they all have HDMI (mentioned in the general rundown)? While the blueray units are in a different price league this capability is in addition to standard PVR functionality, I'd say quite a few users would still choose between a 'cheapie' TiVo and BR unit.

And on TiVo some what tIc but its a small freedom that I can decide to follow the universal rules of English and not be cajoled into misspelling words simply because some corporation would insist I should

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[ona rampage]

Great Summary, and exactly the sort of thing I have been looking for!
Thanks heaps Peter!

[twitch]

One other small point; I'm not aware if any BW P1s or S1s are still being sold with 200Gb drives. I believe all the P1s sold now are 250Gb, and the S1s seem to be a mix of 250Gb & 320Gb.

[tonymy01]

pgdownload, on Jul 21 2008, 04:09 PM, said:

Tony, I'm staying 'legit' so far in my definition of third party EPGs (ie just ICE and Tivo). I'm really unsure what HD machines can and can't handle fourth? party EPGs but I might add some comment to the possibility (as it is a potential, if illegal, feature of some machines)

  It is just when you mentioned third party EPG upload by PC, I assumed you were referring to the work I was doing for WizTimerD/PerlTGD which is actually timer upload, not EPG upload, as the ICE solution most certainly isn't uploaded with a PC, as was said before, it is via LAN or Wireless to the net via your home router.
Regards

[prl]

twitch, on Jul 21 2008, 04:30 PM, said:

One other small point; I'm not aware if any BW P1s or S1s are still being sold with 200Gb drives. I believe all the P1s sold now are 250Gb, and the S1s seem to be a mix of 250Gb & 320Gb.

While that's true, it's not reflected in the company's web sites. The Beyonwiz Australia product pages still list the S1 and P1 as having 200GB disks. Its specification page for the DP-S1 even says "200GB (OPTIONAL)"; it was never optional. The Beyonwiz corporate product pages are even worse, the specifications there list both the DP-S1 and the DP-P1 as having an "Optional" HDD, size unspecified.

Make sure your Beyonwiz is delivered with a HDD! Caveat emptor!

[hobotivo]

pgdownload, on Jul 21 2008, 04:09 PM, said:

Yep the ICETV 'situation' is difficult to convey and definitely uncertain. I can't provide a simple 'summary' without IOM badly prejudicing the reader. As far as I can see the current ICE setup is seen as 'fine'. However if legal cost for past cases are awarded against ICE (as it currently stands) then that might be too much for the company.

Yes, I agree, the IceTV situation is complex, even Peter Vogel (founder of IceTV, subsequently retrenched) can't figure out how IceTV can keep going as they are now without breaching copyright in terms of the original Federal Court's decision, and neither can I!  Here's an extract from what he said on LawFont:

Quote

... IceTV say they have “started to provide scheduling information once again for Channel Nine by methods which strictly comply to the Full Court’s findings”.

Given that the full court found against IceTV on the basis of indirect copying, I wonder how this could be possible. My reading of the judgment is that no matter what the method, if there is a reproduction, there is copyright breach.

Perhaps someone with better understanding of copyright law can see a flaw in my reasoning?

I guess we'll have to see how it all transpires, but I would observe that, except in the Bible, "David and Goliath" battles are seldom won by David.

pgdownload, on Jul 21 2008, 04:09 PM, said:

And on TiVo some what tIc but its a small freedom that I can decide to follow the universal rules of English and not be cajoled into misspelling words simply because some corporation would insist I should

I'm happy to concede you that "small freedom"   

Cheers
Ron

[thudabot]

Good stuff as usual Pete.

I would add some BIG cons to the topfield 7000:
1. Very ugly GUI and very cumbersome remote control navigation the worst I own,  just try to edit some files on the unit without reading instructions for example.

[pgdownload]

Thanks thudabot. Agree 'editing' on the Toppies is less than stella but I suppose the approach I'd rather take here is point out it out as a pro elsewhere than a con here. I believe the BW has good editing? And the Tivo none? 'Ugly' I'll leave to the individual to decide on.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[twitch]

pgdownload, on Jul 21 2008, 07:35 PM, said:

Thanks thudabot. Agree 'editing' on the Toppies is less than stella but I suppose the approach I'd rather take here is point out it out as a pro elsewhere than a con here. I believe the BW has good editing? And the Tivo none? 'Ugly' I'll leave to the individual to decide on.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

Yes, the BW has great editing. Very fast, very easy.

[twitch]

prl, on Jul 21 2008, 04:53 PM, said:

While that's true, it's not reflected in the company's web sites. The Beyonwiz Australia product pages still list the S1 and P1 as having 200GB disks. Its specification page for the DP-S1 even says "200GB (OPTIONAL)"; it was never optional. The Beyonwiz corporate product pages are even worse, the specifications there list both the DP-S1 and the DP-P1 as having an "Optional" HDD, size unspecified.

Make sure your Beyonwiz is delivered with a HDD! Caveat emptor!

The BW site is terribly outdated (just look at the manuals). Reality is a BW P1 or S1 will come with 250Gb minimum. I'd think this guide should be up to date.

[diesel]

The remote layout (at least on the BW DP-P1) is poor and the GUI is unintuitive, certainly not as slick as a TiVo or VMC, but I guess that's part of the price for such a feature packed PVR. It can be done better IMO, but it would seem not without a fairly good rewrite of the FW.
Another Con - doesn't have dual output over HD/SD outputs simultaneously. Unless you have a TV and Projector setup, I can't see why else you would need this, and not sure if any other units can do this.

[swordfish805]

Peter - another suggestion - the beyonwiz S1, P1 and P2 also come with memory card readers (CF, SD and MS) and can play contents on them - straight from your camera, videocam or mp3 player to your TV / HT.

[Dave_L]

PG,
A great idea.

Could I make a couple of suggestions regarding the Pro's & Cons of the Toppy 7000 & 7100 (see bold additions below) ?

Pros:
• Slick and usable interface and OSD.
• Internet connection optional for day to day use (Toppy 7100 only).
• Does what it does (records and plays TV) extremely well.
• Uses FTA broadcast EPG
• Third party EPG can optionally be uploaded via memory stick (or internet connection on the 7100)
• Plug in an external drive for immediate expansion/transfer (up to 1Tb in size)
• Resume Play, Book Marking, Pause Live TV
• Internal Hardrive can easily be upgraded (up to 1Tb in size)
• Full ad skip abilities and excellent FF and REW
• Ability to save TimeShift buffer as a recording
• Sleep Mode can put unit into Standby once recording has finished
• Fully integrates ICE and ICE Interactive if subscribed (Auto and Remote Timer setting).
• Can download shows direct to a PC for use in editing software (7100 via network, 7000 via ext HDD)
• Can convert other media formats (eg AVI) to play on the Toppy I don't believe this option is available on either model
• Excellent forum support

Cons:
• No ability to play other media formats (eg AVI) on both models
• File transfer to PC only via external drive or memory stick on the 7000