231 replies to this topic

[cwt]

D.G., on Jan 14 2008, 05:02 PM, said:

i am keen to do a comparison between DTS core and HD-MA, as I want to get a full sense for just how much difference there is. I've watched some Blu-Ray discs with the DTS core only and they sounded fantastic.

Thats a interesting comparison D.G. look forward to your thoughts.  Ive read that the core is perceptually close to the limits of human hearing . I found an interesting list of various codecs-

'So, when you are talking about soundtracks on an HD DVD, the following are all possibilities:
16bit/48khz lossy (common, used by Warner often with DD+ at 640kbps bitrate)
16bit/48khz lossless (common, used by Warner often with TrueHD at 1.5mbps bitrate)
20bit/48khz lossy (common, used by Paramount with DTS-HD at 1.5mbps bitrate)
24bit/48khz lossy (common, used by Universal often with DD+ at 1.5mbps bitrate)
24bit/48khz lossless (less common, used by Universal with TrueHD at 2.8mbps bitrate)
24bit/96khz lossy (rare, used only by RnB Films on the HD DVD Chronos'

You know I keep having to remind myself that the bitrate is just a measure of the codecs compression    

[:)]

cwt, on Jan 15 2008, 01:18 AM, said:

Thats a interesting comparison D.G. look forward to your thoughts.  Ive read that the core is perceptually close to the limits of human hearing . I found an interesting list of various codecs-

'So, when you are talking about soundtracks on an HD DVD, the following are all possibilities:
16bit/48khz lossy (common, used by Warner often with DD+ at 640kbps bitrate)
16bit/48khz lossless (common, used by Warner often with TrueHD at 1.5mbps bitrate)
20bit/48khz lossy (common, used by Paramount with DTS-HD at 1.5mbps bitrate)
24bit/48khz lossy (common, used by Universal often with DD+ at 1.5mbps bitrate)
24bit/48khz lossless (less common, used by Universal with TrueHD at 2.8mbps bitrate)
24bit/96khz lossy (rare, used only by RnB Films on the HD DVD Chronos'

You know I keep having to remind myself that the bitrate is just a measure of the codecs compression    

if looking for bitrate and bit depth capabilities of the formats this link tass posted is very good reading

http://www.dtvforum....showtopic=59717

and ofcourse if looking for actuall disc specs audio wise we have some good info here in the sticky for both disc formats.

http://www.dtvforum....showtopic=55826

[Dissociative]

thanks Lyle, Al and Kazz. the issue i mentioned there is one i noticed when reading through the Marantz 7002/8002 thread on AVS, with the first post on it being  THIS one. there are a few others further down that back this up and point to a thread on the issue. i havent looked into it any further but will try and find that XA2 thread to understand whats happening. good to hear though your not reporting the issue.

cwt, on Jan 15 2008, 01:18 AM, said:

Thats a interesting comparison D.G. look forward to your thoughts.  Ive read that the core is perceptually close to the limits of human hearing . I found an interesting list of various codecs-

'So, when you are talking about soundtracks on an HD DVD, the following are all possibilities:
16bit/48khz lossy (common, used by Warner often with DD+ at 640kbps bitrate)
16bit/48khz lossless (common, used by Warner often with TrueHD at 1.5mbps bitrate)
20bit/48khz lossy (common, used by Paramount with DTS-HD at 1.5mbps bitrate)
24bit/48khz lossy (common, used by Universal often with DD+ at 1.5mbps bitrate)
24bit/48khz lossless (less common, used by Universal with TrueHD at 2.8mbps bitrate)
24bit/96khz lossy (rare, used only by RnB Films on the HD DVD Chronos'

You know I keep having to remind myself that the bitrate is just a measure of the codecs compression    

interesting that the second and third last two in the list are so close (the numbers anyway), yet of course one is lossless and the other lossy. of course a lot of people are upgrading their equipment so as to be able to go from core to full lossless, so i think its important to consider just how much difference can you hear and also how good does the rest of the links in the audio chain need to be to reproduce the difference? then theres the question of how much difference the pre-stage makes, and is the end result better using core only via a good pre-pro, or full lossless with an AVR?  

[Dissociative]

just had to make my first edit, remembered something important i forgot to add in:

Quote

**Note: all acoustic EQ modes (incl. Audyssey) are disabled when you bitstream Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Digital Plus or DTS-HD.

i read somewhere (probably AVS) that this is probably due to the amount of processing power required to do both.

[Wacko02]

D.G., on Jan 15 2008, 08:48 AM, said:

just had to make my first edit, remembered something important i forgot to add in:
i read somewhere (probably AVS) that this is probably due to the amount of processing power required to do both.

Does that mean that the settings aquired using the Audyssey are lost when doing this?

[Kazz]

D.G., on Jan 15 2008, 08:32 AM, said:

thanks Lyle, Al and Kazz. the issue i mentioned there is one i noticed when reading through the Marantz 7002/8002 thread on AVS, with the first post on it being  THIS one. there are a few others further down that back this up and point to a thread on the issue. i havent looked into it any further but will try and find that XA2 thread to understand whats happening. good to hear though your not reporting the issue.

I wonder if perhaps (and I'm probably way off base here) our firmware is different and therefore we don't have the same problem?

[:)]

Kazz, on Jan 15 2008, 09:17 AM, said:

I wonder if perhaps (and I'm probably way off base here) our firmware is different and therefore we don't have the same problem?

if you read the post you pointed to DG. it infact relates to LFE issues with PCM from the XE1, ie youd be decoding in the player passing pcm to the avr

http://www.avsforum....43#post12709243

Quote

LFE problem with PCM'ed TrueHD

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have an XA2 hooked up to the sr7002 and I have noticed a difference in the LFE output between PCM and TrueHD tracks of the same movie. So I did some calibration of my system using an SPL meter and pink noise from DVE using both PCM and bitstream (DDA) playback. As mentioned around the forums, the PCM playback is 4dB lower in each standard channel when compared to the bitstreamed track. However the LFE channel is 10dB lower than the bitstreamed track when using PCM playback. Interestingly, if I do the same test comparing PCM to bitstream using a regular Dolby Digital track from the standard definition side of the DVE disc, the only difference that I see between the LFE signal is the 4dB difference expected from PCM playback. So does anybody know why the reciever is not applying the +10dB boost to the LFE signal of a TrueHD PCM track but is applying the boost to a bitstreamed TrueHD track, when the reciever clearly provides the boost to both formats when playing a regular dolby digital track?

reading this post I wonder if people are maybe jsut getting confused re the XA2 and issues with using analog multichannel (though there are work arounds for that.
http://www.avsforum....07#post12712107

and this person is deifnitely saying theyre were having issues with the XA2 and pcm ie theyd be decoding in the player and passing to the avr as pcm
http://www.avsforum....78#post12716078

as per the posts above maybe there are LFE issues with decoding truehd in the player and passing as PCM to the AVR as there have been issues reported via using multichannel analogs where the player is doing the decoding. Might explain why neither of us bitstreaming truehd across to the avr to decode is reporting the same issue. I've mentioned before that although I'd applied the workarounds with my previous non hdmi avr, having moved to a bitstreaming and a hdmi avr have defintely found some good benfit in the bass side with a cleaner more detailed and defined sound.

To confirm no such issue that I've noticed with the XE1 and bitstreaming to my 4308, am running latest firmware on both. Few discs come to mind of late with truehd tracks that I've watched, hp order of pheonix, roy orbison black and white and yesterday iwo jima that I tested. Defintely no issue with bass/LFE and bitstreaming truedhd from xe1 to the 4308.

[Dissociative]

aha, got it round the wrong way, indeed its the PCM signal thats mentioned as down in LFE.

good news that its fine with bitstream, dont think i could handle dealing with another LFE issue!!!     

Wacko02, on Jan 15 2008, 09:00 AM, said:

Does that mean that the settings aquired using the Audyssey are lost when doing this?

the EQ processing, yes. its mentioned on p55 of the manual. as i read it, it does relate to EQ only, so other settings/levels etc would remain in place. i'd need the DVE HD-DVD to check it properly, just going off the manual at this point.

[yamapro]

I'm sooo glad you are here to sort out the issues and workarounds for me before i take the plunge...

Some-one give DG a BETA TESTER CAP! (And wear it with pride sir )

Edited by yamapro, 15 January 2008 - 10:34 AM.

[ritzav]

Whew ! Finally, someone has tested this unit and taken out a great deal of their time to describe it, Hats off to effort put in !

3 months ago I had penciled in to buy the 6001 but during the christmas break I saw the prices of 7001 falling down to the price of 6001. And now the 7002 comes out .... its all very confusing for a newbee like me, who mainly relies on experts on this forum for comments. Everything I have read in the review here seems to suggest that the 7002 is worth the extra $$$ when compared to the 7001.

I will order the 7002 today, I am excited

Thanks for the detailed review again. I have book marked it so i can use it for reference when mine gets delivered.

[greengumby]

Thanks DG,

I have been having out for a review of the 7002. Looks like its #1 on my list

[KOAZ]

D.G., on Jan 14 2008, 11:41 AM, said:

Introduction:

Note: THERE IS NO SCALER IN THIS RECEIVER, that is to say, it cannot up-scale anything to a higher resolution. Basically what comes in goes out. What it can do is the following:
• De-interlace a 576i or 480i signal. (needed as not all displays can accept 576i/480i)
• Up-convert composite/S-Video to Component or HDMI, or Component to HDMI.

D.G.
Sorry to ask, but are you sure it De-interlaces both 576i or 480i signals.
I could not find any referance and only speaks about up-converts 480i , 480p , 720p and 1080i on page 62 of manual.
KOAZ

[cwt]

alebonau, on Jan 15 2008, 07:01 AM, said:

and ofcourse if looking for actuall disc specs audio wise we have some good info here in the sticky for both disc formats.

http://www.dtvforum....showtopic=55826

Good and comprehensive list Al . Its interesting to note that the lossy codecs can have 24/48 resolution [ as noted by D.G.] . Needless to say thats the master rate of most new movies . Think I read somewhere that 20 bits is close to 20khz ?- what is usually accepted as the limit of hearing.

Good question if a top quality pre amp using dts core would be very close to an avr decoding lossless. As D.G. notes however it comes down to d/a quality ; pcb layout etc Noise is certainly the enemy of a d/a converters resolution

[:)]

cwt, on Jan 15 2008, 07:14 PM, said:

Good and comprehensive list Al . Its interesting to note that the lossy codecs can have 24/48 resolution [ as noted by D.G.] . Needless to say thats the master rate of most new movies . Think I read somewhere that 20 bits is close to 20khz ?- what is usually accepted as the limit of hearing.

Good question if a top quality pre amp using dts core would be very close to an avr decoding lossless. As D.G. notes however it comes down to d/a quality ; pcb layout etc Noise is certainly the enemy of a d/a converters resolution

lot related to source to I'd suspest cwt. take a pox produced source master yeah do it at 24bit/192khz still likely to sound pox (think pox produced sacd/dvda here). probably also related to down the line equipment I'm sure from pre to pwr to speakers the room and ultimately the person discerning the subjective impression...lot of factors which I'm sure all have their own part to play in all this.

I remember all the discusions when we went from dolby prologic to DD/DTS and people saying how a good pre-pro would do prologic better than an avr doing dd/dts. Well ...I went from a dolby prologic av pre-pro to a humble $2k HK avr at the start of DVD and the avr shat all over what I coudl ever acheive previously !  As to top quality pre-pro using dts core being very close to avr decoding lossless ?..well we'll never know till that comparison is done. Though frankly I'm past all that given in my own experience on dvd and not finding there much difference between mid priced AVRs as pre-pros and av pre-pros even top notch ones ...I wouldnt be expecting any miracles.

Realistically though I am not sure why you would deny yourself the resolution of the source when it is there for the taking...  and the real question is ...a top quality pre-pro doing lossless vs an avr as pre-pro doing lossless. Comparisons one day hopefully I'll be able to do once there are enough new gen hdmi pre-pros to choose from and using denon 4308 as benchmark. Keeping in mind as with any of these comparisons the only meaningfull ones are those done in the same context with the same source material and any results obtained still only relating to the context they were received in.

anyways all probably not really of terrible relavance to DG's review thread here I suspect, sorry for the diversion DG !

[Dissociative]

thanks again for the comments  

KOAZ, on Jan 15 2008, 04:00 PM, said:

D.G.
Sorry to ask, but are you sure it De-interlaces both 576i or 480i signals.
I could not find any referance and only speaks about up-converts 480i , 480p , 720p and 1080i on page 62 of manual.
KOAZ

it sure does, its the "I/P CONVERT" feature in the video set-up menu (see page p59).

[Dissociative]

alebonau, on Jan 15 2008, 07:33 PM, said:

lot related to source to I'd suspest cwt. take a pox produced source master yeah do it at 24bit/192khz still likely to sound pox (think pox produced sacd/dvda here). probably also related to down the line equipment I'm sure from pre to pwr to speakers the room and ultimately the person discerning the subjective impression...lot of factors which I'm sure all have their own part to play in all this.

I remember all the discusions when we went from dolby prologic to DD/DTS and people saying how a good pre-pro would do prologic better than an avr doing dd/dts. Well ...I went from a dolby prologic av pre-pro to a humble $2k HK avr at the start of DVD and the avr shat all over what I coudl ever acheive previously !  As to top quality pre-pro using dts core being very close to avr decoding lossless ?..well we'll never know till that comparison is done. Though frankly I'm past all that given in my own experience on dvd and not finding there much difference between mid priced AVRs as pre-pros and av pre-pros even top notch ones ...I wouldnt be expecting any miracles.

Realistically though I am not sure why you would deny yourself the resolution of the source when it is there for the taking...  and the real question is ...a top quality pre-pro doing lossless vs an avr as pre-pro doing lossless. Comparisons one day hopefully I'll be able to do once there are enough new gen hdmi pre-pros to choose from and using denon 4308 as benchmark. Keeping in mind as with any of these comparisons the only meaningfull ones are those done in the same context with the same source material and any results obtained still only relating to the context they were received in.

anyways all probably not really of terrible relavance to DG's review thread here I suspect, sorry for the diversion DG !

no problem Al. i hadnt thought of it before (as i dont have a pre-pro), but it came up in conversation with another forum member who does have a pre-pro he is happy with and is obviously wondering if its going to be worth "downgrading" (so to speak) back to an AVR, in order to get access to lossless DTS decoding. alternatively is the core "close enough" to make justifying it difficult, at least until fully featured pre-pro's come out? Anyway, probably a discussion for another thread!

[:)]

D.G., on Jan 16 2008, 08:34 AM, said:

no problem Al. i hadnt thought of it before (as i dont have a pre-pro), but it came up in conversation with another forum member who does have a pre-pro he is happy with and is obviously wondering if its going to be worth "downgrading" (so to speak) back to an AVR, in order to get access to lossless DTS decoding. alternatively is the core "close enough" to make justifying it difficult, at least until fully featured pre-pro's come out? Anyway, probably a discussion for another thread!

yes a valid question for anyone with a non hdmi pre-pro. I know rodn had a good experience as he posted back here "downgrading" from his rotel pre-pro back to a denon 4308 AVR as pre-pro. but really for anyone to answer for them selves the only way would be for them to do an AB in their own context to decide for themselves whether the change is worth it for them I believe. I suspect too in some ways, especially depending on the source material and the context, that sort of discussion is also a bit similar to the CD vs mp3 or CD vs sacd arguments that will always go on and probably be never a definitive answer people are looking for because its always comes down in the end to a persons own perceptions....

[cooksta]

D.G., on Jan 14 2008, 11:11 AM, said:

Anyway, if you have made it this far, thanks for reading and please feel free to ask any questions or correct me on anything you think I may have got wrong.

Cheers!

DG, happy Marantz owner.  

Made it from start to finish  

A great read DG, I will be upgrading this year and the marantz already had me very interested before I read your review.

Wether its the 7002 or the 8002 thats the question.

[50MXE20]

cooksta, on Jan 16 2008, 11:46 AM, said:

Made it from start to finish

A great read DG, I will be upgrading this year and the marantz already had me very interested before I read your review.

Wether its the 7002 or the 8002 thats the question.

I think the 8002 will probably be another grand in Australia.

Based on what I've read on the AVS forum, if it was stand-alone I'd go the 8002 probably. The power supply and the copper chassis would be worth it.

However, if you are using it as a pre-amp then I think the 7002 would be fine. My 0.02

[:)]

Lyle, on Jan 16 2008, 01:50 PM, said:

I think the 8002 will probably be another grand in Australia.

Based on what I've read on the AVS forum, if it was stand-alone I'd go the 8002 probably. The power supply and the copper chassis would be worth it.

However, if you are using it as a pre-amp then I think the 7002 would be fine. My 0.02

think thats a pretty good summation there lyle. if looking for an avr the 8002 defintely appears to have some positives but purely as pre-pro not sure if there might be anything in it really 7002 - 8002 ? didnt appear to me anyways.

[cooksta]

Lyle, on Jan 16 2008, 01:20 PM, said:

I think the 8002 will probably be another grand in Australia.

Based on what I've read on the AVS forum, if it was stand-alone I'd go the 8002 probably. The power supply and the copper chassis would be worth it.

However, if you are using it as a pre-amp then I think the 7002 would be fine. My 0.02

According to to the Len Wallis website the 7002 is $2699 and the 8002 is $3499.  

If the 8002 is a better fit for what I need then I would spend the extra.

I'm glad the financial controller doesnt read my posts  :ph34r:

I dont intend going the way of a separate poweramp down the track, but never say never  

[:)]

cooksta, on Jan 16 2008, 02:11 PM, said:

According to to the Len Wallis website the 7002 is $2699 and the 8002 is $3499.  

If the 8002 is a better fit for what I need then I would spend the extra.

I'm glad the financial controller doesnt read my posts  :ph34r:

I dont intend going the way of a separate poweramp down the track, but never say never  

if going for it as an avr and not intending going the power amp route, I'd defintely spend the extra. its not a lot more in dollar terms I imagine for the better power amp for the 8002 especially if you factor in a bit of haggling.

[50MXE20]

cooksta, on Jan 16 2008, 12:11 PM, said:

According to to the Len Wallis website the 7002 is $2699 and the 8002 is $3499.

If the 8002 is a better fit for what I need then I would spend the extra.

I'm glad the financial controller doesnt read my posts :ph34r:

I dont intend going the way of a separate poweramp down the track, but never say never

I think the street price will be quite a bit better than Len Wallis.
I've heard a rumour that the 7002 can be had for about $2K.

[yamapro]

alebonau, on Jan 16 2008, 12:35 PM, said:

think thats a pretty good summation there lyle. if looking for an avr the 8002 defintely appears to have some positives but purely as pre-pro not sure if there might be anything in it really 7002 - 8002 ? didnt appear to me anyways.

Mmmm I'm drooling now - i wasn't going to upgrade until end of the year but damn the Marantz is looking pretty irresistable

I'm planning initally as apre-pro for the front 3 and using the onboard for surrounds... then something like an Elektra or NAD Master series...One Day!!!

[Felix.]

Lyle, on Jan 16 2008, 12:25 PM, said:

I think the street price will be quite a bit better than Len Wallis.
I've heard a rumour that the 7002 can be had for about $2K.

What rumour?  

I've been informed by a local retailer that the warranty is 2 years (although he wasn't 100% on this and was going to call me back). Does anyone know if that is correct? I don't remember reading anything on that in D.G.'s review but I may have missed it.