145 replies to this topic

[Puss in Books]

Gee guys, if only all forums can be aS congenial as this!

RodN, on Jul 29 2007, 02:31 PM, said:

I find the lack of practical examples of what exactly jitter is to be suspicious.

I.e play album XXX and track YYY and if music AAA sounds like BBB there's jitter otherwhise if it sounds like CCC there isn't.

Amen to that.  I can understand the importance of jitter elimination/minimisation when reading audio data off a physical medium (cd), otherwise you will end up with duplicated or missing snippets.  However, in bad cases this shoud be pretty obvious as you would hear some snap, crackle and pop.  But I've got no clue as the the difference jitter management between your garden variety cdp and an expensive one makes.  I am particularly suspicious of suggested measures to reduce jitter at other stages of the audio chain.  Eg., between components, say SPDIF interface/cable between a dvd player and receiver.  I would have thought signal timing and control etc would be pretty basic stuff at this stage, and not need any fancy electronics.

I do not have any dedicated stereo gear, and I have been looking at some possibilities for music improvement.  My current situation is a Denon 2307 AVR and B&W 603S3 fronts and LCR60 centre and I must say I am very happy with the sound for both HT and music.  At the moment I am using a DVD player for CDs because my old CD player has decided to go into retirement.  I am considering purchasing a new CD player but I am not convinced it will make much of a difference, and perhaps I will be better off spending the money on buying some more CDs.

I am inclined to agree with Terry.  Once you get your speakers right, most other improvements tend to be more marginal if not outright insignificant given the spend involved.  Sometimes the improvements must be so marginal that a change in room temperature would probably have a more profound effect.

PS: I am a rank amatuer who only upgrades his system 1 in 20 years, so I hope I haven't offended anyone.

Anyway, all the brotherly love in this thread has inspired me to put on some good 'ol 60's music.  Hmmmm, lets see, what have we got here.....  how 'bout Hair - Original broadway cast?  (may as well, because I don't have much on my head!).

Cheers...VJP

[Puss in Books]

Tassie Devil, on Jul 29 2007, 03:09 PM, said:

Guys, whether you like it or not you hear jitter every time you listen to a CD.

Maybe ignorance is bliss.  Have a study of the excellent article at  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jitter

Do a Google search for more info.  FYI Stereophile measure jitter on all players.

John

Hi Tassie,

The $64 question for me is: does it require an average player to reduce jitter to acceptable levels, or do you have to spend oodles?  I'm currently playing Cds through a (cheap) Pio DVD player and they sound pretty good to me.  What is the jitter sound I'm hearing?

I very much understand the deficiencies in audio Cds that cause jitter, but for all I know they are adequately addressed by competent players.

Regards...VJP

[Tassie Devil]

vjp, on Jul 29 2007, 04:03 PM, said:

Hi Tassie,

The $64 question for me is: does it require an average player to reduce jitter to acceptable levels, or do you have to spend oodles?  I'm currently playing Cds through a (cheap) Pio DVD player and they sound pretty good to me.  What is the jitter sound I'm hearing?

I very much understand the deficiencies in audio Cds that cause jitter, but for all I know they are adequately addressed by competent players.

Regards...VJP

I only wish you were correct but no, jitter is not adequately looked after in most CDPs and yes, it requires a few hundred dollars to upgrade.  But, if you are happy with what you hear then do not worry about it. However if you put an ordinary player in this system and compared it to units which have been modded to lower jitter, you would hear an obvious difference.  (Hope that does not sound snobbish as it is not meant to be - I can only report what I and others have found.)

It is all a matter of balance in the system.  If the electronics and speaker are revealing, then differences in players are obvious, despite the unreliability of auditory memory discussed earlier.  Yes, it well might be that the speakers are disguising/suppressing or whatever the distortion caused by jitter and higher quality speakers would show the differences I'm referring to. (And that could be a good reason not to change the speakers).  Or maybe the amp, the cables, the ..... who knows?  Each system has its own strengths and failures and none is perfect.  

So I repeat the bottom line.  If you are happy with the sound then leave it all alone.  However it does not follow that the player being used has minimal jitter.  The good thing is you are not concerned about it and are not conscious of it.   It is only nutters like me who bother about it.   There is a corollary in video projectors.  Many have a chroma error.  Apparently once you are conscious of it you will find it extremely irritating.  But if you have never seen it then why care?  The basic point in the post was about upgrading and the traps involved.  If you are not planning on any upgrade then what has been said is not applicable.

John

[RodN]

John can you describe the audio effect of jitter? What does it sound like? What tracks should one play to find it?

[:)]

vjp, on Jul 29 2007, 03:20 PM, said:

Gee guys, if only all forums can be aS congenial as this!
Amen to that.  I can understand the importance of jitter elimination/minimisation when reading audio data off a physical medium (cd), otherwise you will end up with duplicated or missing snippets.  However, in bad cases this shoud be pretty obvious as you would hear some snap, crackle and pop.  But I've got no clue as the the difference jitter management between your garden variety cdp and an expensive one makes.  I am particularly suspicious of suggested measures to reduce jitter at other stages of the audio chain.  Eg., between components, say SPDIF interface/cable between a dvd player and receiver.  I would have thought signal timing and control etc would be pretty basic stuff at this stage, and not need any fancy electronics.

I do not have any dedicated stereo gear, and I have been looking at some possibilities for music improvement.  My current situation is a Denon 2307 AVR and B&W 603S3 fronts and LCR60 centre and I must say I am very happy with the sound for both HT and music.  At the moment I am using a DVD player for CDs because my old CD player has decided to go into retirement.  I am considering purchasing a new CD player but I am not convinced it will make much of a difference, and perhaps I will be better off spending the money on buying some more CDs.

I am inclined to agree with Terry.  Once you get your speakers right, most other improvements tend to be more marginal if not outright insignificant given the spend involved.  Sometimes the improvements must be so marginal that a change in room temperature would probably have a more profound effect.

PS: I am a rank amatuer who only upgrades his system 1 in 20 years, so I hope I haven't offended anyone.

Anyway, all the brotherly love in this thread has inspired me to put on some good 'ol 60's music.  Hmmmm, lets see, what have we got here.....  how 'bout Hair - Original broadway cast?  (may as well, because I don't have much on my head!).

Cheers...VJP

hi vjp,

and with your denon avr 2307 I wouldn't be surprised if a cd player doesn't make a huge difference.

if you want to experiece some 2ch. go demo your b&w 603s with a $800 nad 542 cd player and same price nad integrated.

this example is classic in regards upgrades. and I will be damned if you do not experiece quite a difference with this nad b&w setup for 2ch vs your pio dvd - denon avr b&w speaker combo.

and terry this is good engineering right behind the performance of the nads over the pio-avr combo, not mumbo  jumbo  !

[:)]

RodN, on Jul 29 2007, 06:01 PM, said:

John can you describe the audio effect of jitter? What does it sound like? What tracks should one play to find it?

hi rod, with your marantz I doubt you'd be able to hear it. as a dedicated player I imagine there is a common clock that both the transport and dac share and hence little or no timing and hence jitter issues.

[norpus]

alebonau, on Jul 29 2007, 07:03 PM, said:

hi rod, with your marantz I doubt you'd be able to hear it. as a dedicated player I imagine there is a common clock that both the transport and dac share and hence little or no timing and hence jitter issues.

Are you saying Al that dedicated cdps do not have jitter and seperates do?? I don't think this sounds right.

[Tassie Devil]

norpus, on Jul 30 2007, 07:48 AM, said:

Are you saying Al that dedicated cdps do not have jitter and seperates do?? I don't think this sounds right.

Don't want to start a flame war here on the topic of jitter, but norpus you are right in querying this.  There appears a lot of skepticism and disbelief about the topic, despite all the literature on it. I have even been asked to nominate a CD track where it can be heard, ignoring what has been said about it being in players and DACs.  Sadly however, there is evidence of jitter in some CDs also, so the request is not completely out of line.  I'll see what I can find.

Folks, jitter is not snake oil and is a fact of digital CD reproduction in all players, worse in some than others.  Fellow audiophiles, please try to keep an open mind - we are here to learn from one another but will not do so unless prepared to listen without rubbishing what is written.

I'll do more research today on the topic and start a new thread.

John

[Tassie Devil]

RodN, on Jul 29 2007, 06:01 PM, said:

John can you describe the audio effect of jitter? What does it sound like? What tracks should one play to find it?

Rod this is not a simple topic but, as posted below, I'll research it today if I get time & start a new thread.  Basically jitter is the cause of the distortion which gives some CDs an edgy and irritating sound, much hated by lovers of vinyl LPs (and I used to be one of them).  A common "cure" is to use valve amplifiers in an effort to soften the harshness caused by jitter distortion.  Problem is it softens everything and, IMO, is the wrong approach.  Similarly choosing speakers with reduced top end is another bad way of removing the discomfort of this distortion.  And that was the message I tried to get across in my original posting.  

I'm a bit surprised at the hostility the topic of jitter is generating from some (not you).  It seems it is being interpreted as a personal insult to suggest the players being used are somehow faulty because they generate distortion because of jitter.  People are not upset at other distortions in their systems such as harmonic so it is puzzling why such exception should be taken at suggesting there is distortion in their players.  If it does not bother them then fine.  But if better fidelity is the aim we have in helping one another here, then people should be prepared to accept new ideas.  I wonder how many who are sceptical have taken the trouble to research the topic on the net.

Well, I'll try to reduce this complex technical  topic to a readable (and hopefully acceptable) form.

John

[:)]

norpus, on Jul 30 2007, 07:48 AM, said:

Are you saying Al that dedicated cdps do not have jitter and seperates do?? I don't think this sounds right.

hi norpus,

jitter is basically due to timming issues that arrise when utilising separate transports and dacs each with their own clocks.

in the early days of separate dacs several manufacturers even went to the length of running synch lock signals between separate transport and dac to overcome the issue.

if you remember the dcs setup it too had a dedicated clocking unit to tackle this very same issue.

other manufactures also take other means to minimise the effects, Benchmark i've read the lengths they go with stuff spearmint has posted, as have read what mf do with their dac.

using separate dacs technically has its benefits, separate case, separate  psu, giving electrical and physical isolation from the transport, plus the versatility of using a separate dac gives.

With standalone players there just isn't the timming induced jitter issues with separate clocks as there is only one clock that both the transport and dac use. I know with my own player it is a very small number, in fact one test of it couldn't measure it. it is the one benefit of using a standalone player inregards the clock and jitter.

on the topic of connection means there was a great test report done by one of the uk mags showing measured jitter with coax, hdmi & I-link. basically I-link with the clocking signal was the lowest. hdmi was terrible which is why the latest hdmi 1.3 attemts to address with a clocking signal for timming. and coax was somewhere in between. i'll try dig out the article. as made good reading. and pity I-link is being forgotten given what a good connction means it is.

personally in regards jitter its something I leave to my ears to judge. theres all the technical guff, but in the end its what you hear that matters. As you know I was using a dac transport combo for about 15 years, and did a lot of demoing back then and was best could get for my money. and still use the setup for headphones and is doing a brilliant job. I demoed a lot of dacs in my system. Ended up going the particular standalone player because I liked its sound.

As have said before to anyone looking, keep open mind, let your ears choose whatevers best for you.

[Tassie Devil]

alebonau, on Jul 30 2007, 11:15 AM, said:

hi norpus,

jitter is basically due to timming issues that arrise when utilising separate transports and dacs each with their own clocks.

in the early days of separate dacs several manufacturers even went to the length of running synch lock signals between separate transport and dac to overcome the issue.

if you remember the dcs setup it too had a dedicated clocking unit to tackle this very same issue.

other manufactures also take other means to minimise the effects, Benchmark i've read the lengths they go with stuff spearmint has posted, as have read what mf do with their dac.

using separate dacs technically has its benefits, separate case, separate  psu, giving electrical and physical isolation from the transport, plus the versatility of using a separate dac gives.

With standalone players there just isn't the timming induced jitter issues with separate clocks as there is only one clock that both the transport and dac use. I know with my own player it is a very small number, in fact one test of it couldn't measure it. it is the one benefit of using a standalone player inregards the clock and jitter.

on the topic of connection means there was a great test report done by one of the uk mags showing measured jitter with coax, hdmi & I-link. basically I-link with the clocking signal was the lowest. hdmi was terrible which is why the latest hdmi 1.3 attemts to address with a clocking signal for timming. and coax was somewhere in between. i'll try dig out the article. as made good reading. and pity I-link is being forgotten given what a good connction means it is.

personally in regards jitter its something I leave to my ears to judge. theres all the technical guff, but in the end its what you hear that matters. As you know I was using a dac transport combo for about 15 years, and did a lot of demoing back then and was best could get for my money. and still use the setup for headphones and is doing a brilliant job. I demoed a lot of dacs in my system. Ended up going the particular standalone player because I liked its sound.

As have said before to anyone looking, keep open mind, let your ears choose whatevers best for you.

Al, you are right in suggesting jitter can be caused by different timing clocks BUT it is the basic accuracy of the clock in either the CDP with its own DAC OR separates that is the fundamental cause of jitter.  That clock determines timing so if it is inaccurate -> timing errors -> jitter -> distortion.  I have had the internal clocks of both CDPs AND players with external DACs (Benchmark) replaced with audibly better definition, soundstage etc.  Just because the player has all electronics controlled by the one internal clock chip is no guarantee of low jitter.  It all depends on the accuracy of the clock

Does that make sense?

John

[RodN]

I think a new thread on Jitter would be great and perhaps if we ask nicely Caniffe can move the Jitter conversation to that thread.  I understand that it is definitely a technical phenomenon and completely valid. It would be nice to come up with a set of objective measures for one to use to evaluate the amount of jitter their system is showing up we could then have a GTG and have some further group discussions about it.

[Puss in Books]

Tassie Devil, on Jul 30 2007, 09:55 AM, said:

I'm a bit surprised at the hostility the topic of jitter is generating from some (not you).

!!!  

I thought everyone's contribution to this discussion was quite civil and within keeping of the title.  Each to their own sensibilities I suppose, but if it was I that caused you offence then I think you have read far too much into my posts.  No ill will was meant.

Ciao...VJP

[Tassie Devil]

vjp, on Jul 30 2007, 01:32 PM, said:

!!!  

I thought everyone's contribution to this discussion was quite civil and within keeping of the title.  Each to their own sensibilities I suppose, but if it was I that caused you offence then I think you have read far too much into my posts.  No ill will was meant.

Ciao...VJP

And none was taken, but there was some degree of suggestion developing in some posts about jitter being some sort of fable which had no application to them + challenges about where to hear it that had me sensing the discussion could too easily spiral into a death spiral.  I've seen this happen too often when someone with one viewpoint is contradicted by someone else and the thread ends up with personal abuse.  But the discussion has been kept to a civil and intelligent level and will remain at this level as long as we all keep open minds.

John

[Tassie Devil]

Now this is a sticky I'll edit & revise it from time to time to keep it relevant so feel free to keep debating.

Later I'll also insert those links re jitter & refer to the other thread.

John

[the joz]

Tassie Devil, on Jul 30 2007, 11:23 AM, said:

Just because the player has all electronics controlled by the one internal clock chip is no guarantee of low jitter. It all depends on the accuracy of the clock

Does that make sense?

John

Hi again TD,this was my understanding of jitter and clocks.
Thanks.

Also is it the clocks duty to reproduce the timing correctly as is presented on the disc?
The manufacturer of my DAC is very critical on the quality of his clocks (so he says).So is it in the dac that the clock is the most critical,ie this is where all the info is put together correctly??

PS,I have no idea at all what to look for re jitter and probably would no know if it bit me on the arse :ph34r:


EDIT: this post added to jitter thread,sorry

[Tassie Devil]

The sticky is now reformatted with a number of additions.

Anything left out you think should be included??

John

[CConnor]

RodN, on Jul 29 2007, 06:01 PM, said:

John can you describe the audio effect of jitter? What does it sound like? What tracks should one play to find it?

Mr. RodN the most common manifestation is a smearing of the high frequencies and soundstage. At its worst, voices can take on a processed quality. Jitter is only noticable by its absence. Here is an experiment you could try, and it will cost you less than $1. Rip your favourite CD twice. The first time, do it at 1x speed. With the second CD, do it at 52X and ensure that you have many processes running on your computer to stress the buffer. Make sure your computer performs data verification at the end of each burn. Now play both CD's and see if you can hear a difference between them.

Also, if you have a seperate DAC you could listen for the differences between SPDIF, AES/EBU, and optical. For this you will have to acquire seperate cables for each. Please let us know what you find.

[RodN]

CamCon, on Aug 1 2007, 05:04 PM, said:

Mr. RodN the most common manifestation is a smearing of the high frequencies and soundstage. At its worst, voices can take on a processed quality. Jitter is only noticable by its absence. Here is an experiment you could try, and it will cost you less than $1. Rip your favourite CD twice. The first time, do it at 1x speed. With the second CD, do it at 52X and ensure that you have many processes running on your computer to stress the buffer. Make sure your computer performs data verification at the end of each burn. Now play both CD's and see if you can hear a difference between them.

Also, if you have a seperate DAC you could listen for the differences between SPDIF, AES/EBU, and optical. For this you will have to acquire seperate cables for each. Please let us know what you find.

Thanks Camcon I'll give it a shot.

[:)]

RodN, on Aug 1 2007, 09:57 PM, said:

Thanks Camcon I'll give it a shot.

will be interested wat you find rod if you give it a try, my burner is shot at present or I'd give it a go myself  

[Mining Man]

Adding to the general discussion:

It might seem obvious, given this discussion is largely rhetorical, but I identify with 4 key guidelines for upgrading your system:
1) Where you're coming from
2) Where you want to get to
3) How much you're prepared to spend
4) And how long you're likely to take to get there

The biggest lesson I learnt (the hard way), was to think about each component upgrade in terms of the bigger picture I wanted to achieve. My recent speaker upgrade was a no-brainer, because it was far and away the biggest gain for me to make in the short term. However, one of the subtleties of the choice, was with a view to the far distant future. I am hoping in about 10 years time to have separate 2-channel and HT set ups. The mains were chosen to end up in the 2-channel room (sans sub). Thus, I spent a disproportionate amount on the mains than the centre, as for HT duties all 3 will eventually be replaced (hopefully with commercial LCR's behind an AT screen). The centre I went for still kicks arse, but I could have spent an extra $500 on the bigger, better matched one. I'd already stretched $1,500 for the bigger, better mains...

I would endorse anyone looking to upgrade their system, to really think about not just what they want now, but where they hope to take their system in the longer term. That speaker upgrade might not be the best thing if your budget doesn't get you what you'd prefer to have long term. It may however get you the transport you're after, and still deliver some improvement to provide some short term satisfaction.

It's a real labour of love, isn't it?!?

[Tassie Devil]

Love?, often more like lust I'm afraid  

You make some good points but I'm afraid that when the lust, sorry love, hits then logic goes out the window.  Most of us change items haphazardly so it is often as miracle the end result turns out so well.  I suppose it has done that here because I've made so many mistakes so have finally blundered my way to something really good.

I'm interested to hear why you are aiming at two systems.  I can see it makes a lot of sense if the HT is in the family room with kids etc dominating, but if not I like quality audio from video as well as audio only.  The main difference in general terms is that the centre channel is as important as the L/R stereo for HT as so much speech comes through it.  In both the main system and a secondary one I'm setting up, I've gone to considerable trouble to match that centre speaker with the mains and it has paid off handsomely. In the main system I had Sound Labs in the USA make me two more Majestic speakers that were not as tall as the mains.  Subsequently I found that one would have sufficed but two are here now so two are fed from a stereo amp (Plinius 250 III).  In the secondary system, a clever friend had made up a stereo system with Audax speakers so when I decided to go MC there I imported an Audax centre speaker kit from Madisound in the USA.  Not too much trouble to hook together and it works like a charm, integrating seamlessly into the mains.  But I digress.  This forum is supposed to be about 2CH.

John

Mining Man, on Aug 2 2007, 09:20 AM, said:

Adding to the general discussion:

It might seem obvious, given this discussion is largely rhetorical, but I identify with 4 key guidelines for upgrading your system:
1) Where you're coming from
2) Where you want to get to
3) How much you're prepared to spend
4) And how long you're likely to take to get there

The biggest lesson I learnt (the hard way), was to think about each component upgrade in terms of the bigger picture I wanted to achieve. My recent speaker upgrade was a no-brainer, because it was far and away the biggest gain for me to make in the short term. However, one of the subtleties of the choice, was with a view to the far distant future. I am hoping in about 10 years time to have separate 2-channel and HT set ups. The mains were chosen to end up in the 2-channel room (sans sub). Thus, I spent a disproportionate amount on the mains than the centre, as for HT duties all 3 will eventually be replaced (hopefully with commercial LCR's behind an AT screen). The centre I went for still kicks arse, but I could have spent an extra $500 on the bigger, better matched one. I'd already stretched $1,500 for the bigger, better mains...

I would endorse anyone looking to upgrade their system, to really think about not just what they want now, but where they hope to take their system in the longer term. That speaker upgrade might not be the best thing if your budget doesn't get you what you'd prefer to have long term. It may however get you the transport you're after, and still deliver some improvement to provide some short term satisfaction.

It's a real labour of love, isn't it?!?

[Mining Man]

Tassie Devil, on Aug 2 2007, 11:55 AM, said:

Love?, often more like lust I'm afraid

You make some good points but I'm afraid that when the lust, sorry love, hits then logic goes out the window. Most of us change items haphazardly so it is often as miracle the end result turns out so well. I suppose it has done that here because I've made so many mistakes so have finally blundered my way to something really good.

~

Lust? For sure...   

Yeah, it's hard to know how it's all going to unfold, and upgraditis is in some senses, inevitable. But my methodology is to avoid the somewhat expensive mistake of otherwise avoidable upgrades. For example (and perhaps not the best one, given this is a 2-channel discussion) - I wouldn't be buying an AVR right now, given the uncertainty over HD audio formats and implementation. Better to stick with what you've got, or pick up something second hand without HDMI from a bleeding edge enthusiast.

Tassie Devil, on Aug 2 2007, 11:55 AM, said:

~
I'm interested to hear why you are aiming at two systems ...
~

4 actually.


System 1: Living room viewing / listening. I'd design the central hub of the house around an open space where kitchen, dining and living room has a nice big flatscreen, bookshelf / ceiling mount based surround sound and maybe a high light output projector for watching the odd movie and the footy grand final with a crowd. This space would be fairly bullet proof, with decent but not top end sound. Acoustic treatments would be variable, depending on who is in the room, what they're wearing and where they sit!! Basically, this is your run of the mill Harvey Norman catalogue living room.
System 2: As a boy, my grandfather had what he called "The Quiet Room". Wall to wall bookshelves, a couple of nice sitting chairs, a radiator, an old school hi-fi and plenty of charm. This would be a retreat from the noise of the day, somewhere to sip a whisky or wine, and enjoy a good book or album.
System 3: Integrated music throughout the house, courtesy of a Sonos or similar style compressed digital music source. Not really fussed if this does or doesn't happen.
System 4: Dedicated Home Theatre, preferably underground. This is the ultimate dream bit, and would obviously be the last one to build. The works: room within a room, IB subs, AT screen, CRT etc.

Oh, and not a single TV in any bedroom. A second TV might be provided in a games / rumpus / kids room if necessary.

[Tassie Devil]

LOL, and I thought I was nutty!!!   Great to read about other "enthusiasts" - a great term to explain the mania.

Ok, time to confess to 7 systems (some not all that impressive):

1.  Main combined MC audio & HT system in the main pentagonal lounge

2.  Secondary big system in Dining room with Sony 70" SXRD, Audax speakers & Denon electronics (still being played around with).  Also composite video + stereo audio feed from main system.

3.  Home Office - FM tuner & modded Denon 3000 CDP -> modded Benchmark DAC 1 (yes I have two of them) -> modded 3 way speakers with 15" woofers.  Stereo audio feed from main system here also.

4.  Kitchen - a system & TV there, the systemr 2 CH audio is a DIY amp & preamp -> Polk speakers with feed from an FM tuner & also from the main system.  The TV is unconnected to the system & is a 32" Regal HD unit that I've modded with speaker jacks to feed better speakers.

5.  Bedroom - also a system & TV.  The system is 2CH fed by a NAD 7200 receiver -> Celestion speakers.  The TV is a 37" Regal HDTV, unmodded or messed around with at the moment (but it needs to behave or I'll be at it)

6.  Bathroom - an old TV fed by a Strong STB -> NAD 3130 amp -> crummy speakers (must do something about that some day)

7.  Downstairs (exercise room) - 34" Sony monitor, Proton amp, VASS electrostat speakers - still playing around with that one.  And yes, feed from the main system down there also.

A lot of this has resulted from surplus gear I'm too lazy to sell.  And it is fun playing around with it all!!!  

John

Mining Man, on Aug 2 2007, 10:54 AM, said:

Lust? For sure...   

Yeah, it's hard to know how it's all going to unfold, and upgraditis is in some senses, inevitable. But my methodology is to avoid the somewhat expensive mistake of otherwise avoidable upgrades. For example (and perhaps not the best one, given this is a 2-channel discussion) - I wouldn't be buying an AVR right now, given the uncertainty over HD audio formats and implementation. Better to stick with what you've got, or pick up something second hand without HDMI from a bleeding edge enthusiast.
4 actually.
System 1: Living room viewing / listening. I'd design the central hub of the house around an open space where kitchen, dining and living room has a nice big flatscreen, bookshelf / ceiling mount based surround sound and maybe a high light output projector for watching the odd movie and the footy grand final with a crowd. This space would be fairly bullet proof, with decent but not top end sound. Acoustic treatments would be variable, depending on who is in the room, what they're wearing and where they sit!! Basically, this is your run of the mill Harvey Norman catalogue living room.
System 2: As a boy, my grandfather had what he called "The Quiet Room". Wall to wall bookshelves, a couple of nice sitting chairs, a radiator, an old school hi-fi and plenty of charm. This would be a retreat from the noise of the day, somewhere to sip a whisky or wine, and enjoy a good book or album.
System 3: Integrated music throughout the house, courtesy of a Sonos or similar style compressed digital music source. Not really fussed if this does or doesn't happen.
System 4: Dedicated Home Theatre, preferably underground. This is the ultimate dream bit, and would obviously be the last one to build. The works: room within a room, IB subs, AT screen, CRT etc.

Oh, and not a single TV in any bedroom. A second TV might be provided in a games / rumpus / kids room if necessary.

[Mining Man]

Tassie Devil, on Aug 2 2007, 02:48 PM, said:

~
Ok, time to confess to 7 systems (some not all that impressive):
~

You've well and truly earnt the first line of your signature!!!

Awesome stuff John!!