89 replies to this topic

[Tassie Devil]

Recently I had the opportunity to purchase a used P-700 CDP for $AUD350 so snapped it up and had it modified by James at Soundlabs Group in Melbourne.  http://www.soundlabsgroup.com.au/

James did the following:

1 BDE-Digital Output Kit DIB 1
1 LClock XO3 16.9344MHz kit
2 Bybee Quantum Purifiers
He also inserted an RCA socket out & an IEC power socket.  Overall cost of this was around $AUD1300 including freight and the ubiquitous 10% VAT.

It arrived yesterday so I did an immediate listen.  It was very good but I preferred the unmodded Esoteric UX-1.  It sounded more smooth and musical.  Both played through the Benchmark DAC 1 so brilliantly modded by Steve Nugent at Empirical Audio.  
http://www.audioasyl.../13/130974.html
The rest of the chain was -> McIntosh C200 preamp -> Halcro DM68 amps -> Sound Labs “Majestic” full range electrostats.

But a different scene today after a 24 hour warm up.  The P-700 does sound better than the UX-1.  On a casual listen there was not much in it, but more careful audition the P-700 did sound cleaner.  

The clincher was the opinion of my wife whose female ears are far less tolerant than mine.  She sat down while a Beethoven piano piece was playing via the P-700 without making any comment.  When asked her opinion of the sound quality her immediate response was “excellent”.  Encouraged I then put the same piece on the UX-1 for comparison.  I had hardly sat down than the familiar complaint was voiced “too loud”.  I let it run for a bit without any change of volume and then changed back to the P-700 and asked if she found that volume level better.  Yes, it was!!!!

I then played a delicious item from “La Traviata” with Anna Netrebko singing.  My wife has often expressed dislike of sopranos but had to admit that via the P-700 she sounded much better than she had previously experienced.

So what is going on here?  My take is that the mods done on the P-700 have subtly reduced distortion.  You could easily drive yourself nutty and destroy all musical enjoyment by concentrating on trying to detect distortion in the sound so that is not my habit.  However there is something better about the audio quality from that modded P-700 than there is from the unmodded UX-1, itself no slouch.  Remember both have that excellent transport mechanism so the only difference is the electronics between that transport and the digital out.  (And yes, identical digital cables were used to feed to the digital Inday switcher, a unit brilliantly rebuilt by Steve for me some time ago).

Audio memory is highly unreliable IMO so A/B testing is always suspect.  I had hoped the modded P-700 would be a good as the unmodded UX-1 but admit to being surprised that I prefer it.  Obviously the UX-1 has to have the magic James wand waved over it.  As posted previously, the SACD reproduction from the UX-1 is not as good in many cases as that from CD and that is because of the digital out going through the modded Steve Nugent Benchmark DAC 1 rather than through the internal DACs as SACD does.  Unfortunately James is very busy with other jobs at the moment so I’ll have to wait a few more weeks before sending him the UX-1.

So guys & gals, the moral of the story is, if you are seriously interested in hearing the best quality audio from your system, have your player modified (and your DAC also if you are using an external unit).  Remember the old adage:

GARBAGE IN -> GARBAGE OUT.  If you are not putting in the best possible input, no amps or speakers will improve it.  They might modify or even disguise poor input to make it more listenable, but they cannot make an audio silk ear from pigs ear input.  So, spend those precious hard earned dollars on tidying up the input before throwing money away on different amps or speakers.  Yes the sound will be different, but not necessarily better.  It will only be a move sideways.  Trust me, been there done that myself far too often.

John (a confirmed audio nutter since playing with a wind up Edison cylinder gramophone in the 1940's)

[:)]

interesting reading tass. a p700 hey ?

I got one of them ! use it with an old mf valve dac for a headphone setup. Interestign the comparisons. I tried the p700 with a whole bunch of dacs in my system, benchmark included but ended up going a mf cd plaeyr with valve output instead.

interesting to hear about the mods for the p700 to take to another level.

still love my old p700. a class machine. hears hoping it keeps going for many years yet  

[Tassie Devil]

alebonau, on Jul 26 2007, 05:00 PM, said:

interesting reading tass. a p700 hey ?

I got one of them ! use it with an old mf valve dac for a headphone setup. Interestign the comparisons. I tried the p700 with a whole bunch of dacs in my system, benchmark included but ended up going a mf cd plaeyr with valve output instead.

interesting to hear about the mods for the p700 to take to another level.

still love my old p700. a class machine. hears hoping it keeps going for many years yet  

You are sitting on a treasure Alebonau - get James to modify it and you will have a true high end player.

John

[norpus]

alebonau, on Jul 26 2007, 05:00 PM, said:

interesting reading tass. a p700 hey ?

I got one of them ! use it with an old mf valve dac for a headphone setup. Interestign the comparisons. I tried the p700 with a whole bunch of dacs in my system, benchmark included but ended up going a mf cd plaeyr with valve output instead.

interesting to hear about the mods for the p700 to take to another level.

still love my old p700. a class machine. hears hoping it keeps going for many years yet  

Yes a good read
After hearing Als P700 and being impressed, I snapped up a P500 off ebay to go with my benchmarkdac1. Both unmodified at this stage - in fact dunno whether it would be worth spending mods money on a transport that is relatively old and not sure how long the laser etc will last? Thoughts Tassie D?

[Tassie Devil]

norpus, on Jul 26 2007, 05:25 PM, said:

Yes a good read
After hearing Als P700 and being impressed, I snapped up a P500 off ebay to go with my benchmarkdac1. Both unmodified at this stage - in fact dunno whether it would be worth spending mods money on a transport that is relatively old and not sure how long the laser etc will last? Thoughts Tassie D?

Get them both modded.  Not sure about how well Soundlabs would do the Benchmark, but the P500 would be worthwhile.  I would not worry about the age.  Replacement lasers etc would still be available if you were unlucky enough to get into trouble.  I see that P 500 cost $2,500 USD new so certainly worth working on.  And Steve Nugent performs miracles on the Benchmark.  From what I can garther his modded unit is near the topm, if not at the top, of any 2 CH DAC regardless of price.  Drop him an email and mention me (he has looked after me well so I'd like him to know I'm giving him good feedback).

Al, what did the P700 cost new?

John

[:)]

Tassie Devil, on Jul 26 2007, 05:43 PM, said:

Get them both modded.  Not sure about how well Soundlabs would do the Benchmark, but the P500 would be worthwhile.  I would not worry about the age.  Replacement lasers etc would still be available if you were unlucky enough to get into trouble.  I see that P 500 cost $2,500 USD new so certainly worth working on.  And Steve Nugent performs miracles on the Benchmark.  From what I can garther his modded unit is near the topm, if not at the top, of any 2 CH DAC regardless of price.  Drop him an email and mention me (he has looked after me well so I'd like him to know I'm giving him good feedback).

Al, what did the P700 cost new?

John

hi john not sure on those us dollar prices but my p700 cost new $aud 2k or so if I remember from secher audio thats going back to nearly 15-16 years ago now though !

when I stopped by audiophile the other day to pick up some discs, nick there had a transport on his desk come in for a service, he mentioned that he used to the teac/esoterics back when they were all the rage and dthese days does the service for them lasers etc no probs.

[terry j]

Tassie Devil, on Jul 26 2007, 04:50 PM, said:

GARBAGE IN -> GARBAGE OUT.  If you are not putting in the best possible input, no amps or speakers will improve it.  They might modify or even disguise poor input to make it more listenable, but they cannot make an audio silk ear from pigs ear input.  So, spend those precious hard earned dollars on tidying up the input before throwing money away on different amps or speakers.  Yes the sound will be different, but not necessarily better.  It will only be a move sideways.  Trust me, been there done that myself far too often.

Funny isn't it, I couldn't disagree with this more!!    In fact, I am the complete diametric opposite to this.


Just goes to show that there never will be universal agreement when it comes to the approach to audio.

For example, if I had a budget of 10 units for stereo, probably 8-9 units I would spend on the speaker/speaker room interaction, bugger the rest!!  iNDEED, THAT IS SORT OF CLOSE TO MY CURRENT RATIO (NOT EXACTLY, BUT TENDING TOWARDS IT).

Jeez I hate the caps lock, sorry for that.

[JohnA]

so Terry, you don't believe that a good dedicated cdp is worth spending money on?
nor do you think a good pre-amp is worth it either?

i tell you what, after having the octagons i noticed the difference between pre amps and cdp's alot more then i ever did before

[:)]

JohnA, on Jul 26 2007, 10:38 PM, said:

so Terry, you don't believe that a good dedicated cdp is worth spending money on?
nor do you think a good pre-amp is worth it either?

i tell you what, after having the octagons i noticed the difference between pre amps and cdp's alot more then i ever did before

when was demoing pre-amps foudn them to make a huge difference in my system. sources especially in the same price range a little less. but there is certainly a differncde going budget to mid range no question.

I too certainly beliver in the source. it really does start there. and defintely do believe if not retrieved there cant ever get it back.

that said do beleive the importance of amps and speakers too. its the whole chain. certainly sure one might influence more than another but theyre still all important I beleive.

[terry j]

JohnA, on Jul 26 2007, 10:38 PM, said:

i tell you what, after having the octagons i noticed the difference between pre amps and cdp's alot more then i ever did before

I think this sentence sums it up John,

to me the rear end is where the action happens, where the rubber hit's the road as they say.

Honestly, is there REALLY any debate that the weakest link is the speakers and the associated room interaction???

I honestly shake my head when I see people spending uber amounts on the front end, yet (often) have a look at photos they may post of their setup, speakers against any convenient wall (to make way for foot traffic for example), one in the left hand corner and the other hung out to dry.

Of course, life and it's demands all make an impact on what we can and cannot do-I count myself extremely lucky to have my own dedicated room in which I can do what I want etc..and right now it still does not look as nice as yours!!!

The point is however, people ALL TOO OFTEN DO (god damn!!) what I regard as poor value upgrades, new cables, amps, isolators, interconnects blah blah blah yet the good old basic ENGINEERING is left behind.

And the area in Hi Fi that is the poorest engineering wise is the speakers I'm afraid.

[JohnA]

Terry, yes agree

lesser speakers will not be able to show you the differences in components.

I dare say John took it as we already have good speakers and rooms when making his post

[:)]

JohnA, on Jul 26 2007, 10:56 PM, said:

Terry, yes agree

lesser speakers will not be able to show you the differences in components.

I dare say John took it as we already have good speakers and rooms when making his post

he probably did. though I'd dissagree on the 'lesser speakers'.

there can be quite revealing lower costign bookshelves even some very old designs for example that will show up differnces in components. Have experienced the differnce source can make on affordable speakers. Similarly on the other hand too take a large floor stander as opposed to a small efficient bookshelf and would be suprised to not find differnet amps not making a significant difference on the large floorstander.

the classic example was andrew at the aslan gtg with the austral starting off with a denon amp and cd player and then moving on to the elktra amp and shanling for source.

[RodN]

I think the speaker has a different relationship in the whole chain.  Its the transducer which converts electrical energy into acoustical energy and as such it and its interaction with the room can have a far larger impact on a system than a cd player or a pre.

[terry j]

I just wanted to present the following hypothetical..

Someone is on his way to hear Johns octagons, oh I dunno, he's come from interstate or something, so when Johns main, expensive and quality CD player mysteriously develops a problem and is not available for the audition, John can't call it off (as the guy's in transit) so has no choice but to borrow the cheap family dvd player and throw that into his system.

So, when the guy sits down and gets to hear Johns system, and john cranks it up a little, what do we reckon the guys reaction to what he hears will be??   "gee, sounds OK, but I just can't get into it because you've got a crap cd player".  Nnnaaahhh.

What would you rather listen to, $20,000 cd player on $100 speakers, or $100 cd player on $20,000 speakers????

I know my answer, and yes, I DO use a $100 cd player!!!!!!!!!  My speakers are DIY so it's really kinda hard to put an actual price tag on them, but in all honesty and with due humility they trounce any commercially available $20,000 speakers I've ever heard.

Another point to consider here, it's a bit hard to actually get $100 speakers, but on the contrary it is simple to get $100 cd player.  

I would agree that there definitely will be a difference between $100 cdp and $20,000cdp.  For sake of this argument, let's call that difference a factor of say 5 (and to my way of thinking that is generous).  Given that factor, what is the corresponding factor when going from a $100 pair of speakers to a $20,000 pair????  We will all have our own ideas, but I'd wager it would WAY outstrip  the cdp example.

OK, so we (finally) have our $20,000 speakers, so can I now go and get my hypothetical $20,000 cdp???  No, still reckon that would be silly, cause even only a couple of grand on room treatments will make a vastly greater difference to sound quality than splurging out on the cdp.

Bloody hell, if you're gonna spend twenty grand on a cdp for example, save the money and go active on the speakers!!! The benefits once again from good old engineering (which is what going active is) will give you your rewards, not falling from the tired old marketing guff we are subjected to everyday in hi-fi.  And by marketing I don't mean just the hi fi press, I'm talking more generally about the mantras 'that everyone knows are true' and so just get repeated without any thought being put into them.  "Why do I need to think about it, everyone knows it's true?"

Well, I'm here to tell you I don't think it's true!!

I guess I've just got a bee in my bonnet at the moment, at times I just want to scream.  Too many people have fallen into the industry trap of how to achieve good sound-and that is you must always upgrade.  Of course, once you have the new amp, that will magically allow you to now benefit from new cables (make sure you connect them with the electrons going thru the wire in the right direction, boy I want to puke!!), and then you need a new......what the heck you get the idea.

Has anyone of these salesmen EVER!! even talked about room treatment for example??

Now, when we are talking about spending a couple of grand on electronics to put in our system, in todays world when we are now finally able to make the loudspeakers infinitely better in all their parameters (along the lines of Tact, or even some Behringer on the more modest systems) it's absolute stupidity I'm afraid to continue just throwing it into the old, dead end areas.

I'm not that well known here, so I can kinda get my steam off without (I hope) being accused of less than worthy motives if I were to say some of this stuff on other forums on the web, cause as I say at times I just want to scream "wake up you guys" but am unable to.

Good old engineering, it gets swamped in hi-fi under the nauseating tidal wave of high end tweaks, you've all seen them, special audio coat racks, magic this and that, special electrical signals sent down the phone line to magically tweak your system, coloured this and that, for god's sake, even (usually quite expensive) rca connectors make a difference  aaarrgggh, fix the basics first!

I mean, let's get some sort of metric to evaluate these expensive upgrades against, and I'm willing to bet the sonic differences would be LESS than that from moving your chair by a foot! Yet they will all be accompanied by words like "wow, amazing, new, re-discoverd my collection" blah blah blah.

There was one guy somewhere that evidently improved his sound heaps by elevating his speakers a bit, presumably bringing the tweeter and mids into a more favorable relation to ear height.  OK, excellent result, and the price was good     

See, good old engineering brings dividends, not wanky hi-fi bullshit. I was about to type a bravo on doing the basics well first, then I find out he is now looking at getting another amp to carry on the upgrades, ie STRAIGHT BACK onto the old style upgrade path.  Is a new (read different) amp gonna make the same sonic returns as his little good old engineering tweak??  I'd bet not!

I don't know how much that amp will cost, but I bet it is way more than either buying (for his system) a Behringer deq or paying someone to install it for him, and I'm here to tell you that the behringer upgrade would absolutely CREAM the amp upgrade.

No-one thinks of these things, they just trawl and mine the same tired old upgrade paths that have always been done...yawn, it's all so old, boring and predictable I'm afraid.

Of course, comparing the benefits of a new amp in a system vs the correcting the speaker approach is the type of gtg that really appeals to me, I'm sure more than a few people would have their cherished pre-conceived notions upturned a bit.



Well, I never really introduced myself when I first popped on here, guess you kinda know me by now ha ha ha, or at least you've got an idea of my philosophy when it comes to stereo.  I know most people would not have even considered my approach, let alone agree with it.  Even if you strongly disagree with it, I'd urge you to at least consider it (because it is so anti-mainstream) to see if there is at least some of it that might make sense to you.

I feel it has merit.


Thanks for listening, even if you disagree with me strongly, I just had to get it off my chest and I guess you are the poor bunnies that copped it!

BTW Rod, I'm about to do another 'cut and shut' on my speakers, in order to properly investigate using these drivers OB, there was a lot to really enjoy about yours, enough for me to pull 'em apart again.

[JohnA]

Terry

i agree with you on some points and disagree with you on others.

I am not a believer of any fairy dust, magic cables, cable lifters, racks or any otehr hocus pocus gadgets.

I am a believer in good quality speakers, amps, pre-amps and cdp's.
I am not talking $20k stuff here either,b ut good qulaity that can take your setup to another level.
I do also believe in room treatments, one of the most importent things that is always overlooked.
I also believe in speaker placemement and getting that right, along with your seating possition

I do not want to compromise my setup in any way, so yes, i do look for a good cdp and good pre-amp. Power amps to a lesser degree, but thats something i not need worry about anymore.

As for the behringer gear, as i discovered at my place and recently at Rod's place, there is no way i would ever introduce it into my 2 channel chain again.

I don't think you will see anyone here preaching the word on cables ro any other magic devices, but then if someone has their speakers right, their room treated, why not tinker and see how much more they can squeeze out of their system?
and if it doesn't cost you anything (try before you buy) even better.

I say each to their own mate, some people like to tinker, others like to add all this fairy dust, other like simplicity and others like to swap over components every week. I am not here to tell them not to do it, nor am i here to tell them they are idiots for doing so.
If they feel it has mde a difference thats all that realy matters, what i/we think is irrelevant.

[Gutty]

terry j, on Jul 27 2007, 09:14 AM, said:

I just wanted to present the following hypothetical..

I guees the real question is: Do you feel better now ?   

[:)]

hi terry, intersting post, perhaps pertinent to some people on another forum   hehe

seriously though with any upgrade its upto the person to evaluate in their context surely and if they find the need to spend more than $100 on a cdp or any other component are we really here to judge and ridicule ?. its their value judgement isnt it ?.

And not everyone has the where with all and inkling of the likes of going dIY or using behringers or tacts or deqx' or going active and anyways some great results can be acheived passively as well.

re amps whether it be amps or pre's I do see their importance. Have heard some really great speakers fall well short of what they can achieve due to amps used or sources.

thats not to say the room isnt important as well, ofcourse it is as with room treatment though there again not something all can avail them selves too.

We must be a little carefull too in comparing costs. As I dont think thats where its at. Does a $20,000 speaker cost $20,000 ? half of its probably margin another half of the remainder probably freight and what not and a lot of this will vary from one brand to the other. Things like that are not really clear cut, I've know Ive demoed a lot of similar price speakers with some better value than others  

Personally I'm all for demoing components and if there is enough of a justifiable improvement that I think warants the expense, then hell for my self to upgrade I cant personally feel theres anythign wrong with that..shoudl there be ?

[norpus]

hi terry, I enjoyed the passion in your post  

[Tassie Devil]

Folks, rather than laboriously replying to each of your valued responses, I've started another thread which should answer much of what you raised.

http://www.dtvforum....showtopic=52342

John

[terry j]

thanks for the responses, and BTW Gutty, I DO feel better ha ha.

I actually didn't intend to say all that when I originally posted,it just came out!

Don't put too much weight on the $20,00 figure, it was only meant to illustrate my point, I realise no-one is talking about cdp's in that price bracket (do they even exist at that price?).

Re the behringer gear, sure it is all relative, and some of it is better than others.  I would wholeheratedly agree with you John, there is no way I'd put it it in your system either.  However, would it be true to say that it did serve a purpose at some point in your musical path?  Now where you're at has way outstripped the behringer, but that in no way proves that in other systems it can't do any good.  In the system I was refering to I have no doubt that the correct bit of behringer gear would do a world of good, my point simply being that in that system it would improve things more than a new amp. (in my opinion of course).



John A quote         """""I don't think you will see anyone here preaching the word on cables ro any other magic devices, but then if someone has their speakers right, their room treated, why not tinker and see how much more they can squeeze out of their system?and if it doesn't cost you anything (try before you buy) even better."""""


Yeah, that is my whole point, once you have the good basic engineering down pat then by all means go for the rest of it, as the subtle and wanted improvements they bring will really stand out and shine.  Not sure I totally agree with this part (though I can certainly understand it)  """"If they feel it has mde a difference thats all that realy matters, what i/we think is irrelevant.""""  I guess my problem with it is that (given what we've been talking about, ie the possibility that some of the promoted improvements from the industry might not be as significant as often claimed) is that it opens the door to all the audio crap we are exposed to, and I'm simply flying the flag for 'good old engineering'.  I do realise that not many people here are talking about all the audio voodoo, but let's be honest a lot of others do.



Alebonau quote""""seriously though with any upgrade its upto the person to evaluate in their context surely and if they find the need to spend more than $100 on a cdp or any other component are we really here to judge and ridicule ?. its their value judgement isnt it ?."""""

I guess I came across as ridiculing others for their decisions, I don't really.  I agree totally that it is their judgement call, and especially if they have had the good luck to audition the gear first, then if they have bought it then it is obviously worth it to them.  My only argument is that usually the upgrade is because of old school thoughts and practices, 'the next step is....',, and it is my strong belief that there are more worthwhile (usually) upgrades available due to changes in technology that simply weren't around when the old school thoughts were first formulated.

All I am saying is that there is not yet a tendency or knowledge that people should audition/consider some of the newly available processing, as I say be it Tact, pc based or whatever. If they are at least aware of it, considered it, then decided against it for whatever reason then that's ok.  I'm only pushing for people to be aware of the alternatives that now exist to the old upgrade path.

Once when I was trying to handle a perceived brightness problem with my system (an old one, way back when), one of the avenues I explored was a new cdp, the possibility being that my cdp was bright (suggested to me by someone else).  Ok, so I hauled my cdp down to LW, and set it up next to the Tri-vista from MF, all $12,000 worth. Seeing as how it used valves the theory was that it would be less strident etc etc.  Well, after about an hour of serious listening, concentration etc I gave up as I could not realistically pick any difference between the tri-vista cdp and my marantz cdp/minidisc combined unit (retail $600)

Once I relaxed and just listened (a lesson for me I guess) I finally started to hear differences (to the good).  They were there, but subtle.  But of course I came up against the question...were the differences significant enough to justify spending twenty times as much on the cdp??  Needless to say I do not have a tri-vista.

Would I have struggled to hear the difference if instead I had invested that $12000 into using some of the newly available digital x-over and correction units and tri-amped my system?  I think not, and needless to say I have a fully active tri-amped system.(not that it cost anywhere near $12000 mind)

Once again, good old engineering tackling the weakest (and therefore the most important) part of the system first.

I agree that comparing DIY to commercial is fraught with traps and pitfalls, I only tried to put some sort of comparison to what level of commercially available speakers we might have been talking of. And very few would have the inclination, time or resources to give it a go.  What is always left out of the diy equation is the time the person has put into it, which they usually cost at $0/hr, so not far comparisons really.  And of course, very few DIY options would look anywhere near like the octagons for example!!  Mine certainly don't ha ha ha.


Bugger, just noticed Tassie devil has put a new thread relating to this stuff, looks very good too!  I'm so dumb I don't know how to swap this over there, so will leave it here and then go and have a closer look at what he is saying!

Thanks for listening

[the joz]

Hi Terry,as always a no nonsense approach.
Flambouyant as ever aswell.

[:)]

the joz, on Jul 27 2007, 12:14 PM, said:

Hi Terry,as always a no nonsense approach.
Flambouyant as ever aswell.

yes terry and as per norpus as well, enjoy the passion of your posts !

[terry j]

I hope I'm coming across OK, am certainly not intending to bag or disparage someone else's approach.

[:)]

terry j, on Jul 27 2007, 12:33 PM, said:

I hope I'm coming across OK, am certainly not intending to bag or disparage someone else's approach.

ah no, its healthy to disucss, you have your approach a I'm sure others have their own too. . plus interesting reading of peoples experiences in this regard. thats what forums are for  

[ozcal]

alebonau, on Jul 27 2007, 10:46 AM, said:

ah no, its healthy to disucss, you have your approach a I'm sure others have their own too. . plus interesting reading of peoples experiences in this regard. thats what forums are for  

Hey Terry , interesting read.Now I certainly don't have the diy ability to build the sort of speaker system you have and I do agree that speaker technology is the weakest link in the chain however after years in the retail industry and as a hobbyist I have to say I can't stand the unmusical sound that issues imo from cheap digital components.All the inexpensive cd players I have heard sound flat ,lifeless and very  musically unconvincing to my ears.Swap out the budget design for a Rotel RCD1072 or one of the Consonance devices and to my ears the system comes to life.
I guess one of the hardest things in our hobby is to maintain an open mind,I therefore don't discount your approach it jsut doesn't tally with my own experience ,given the way I percieve music.
Gordon