20 replies to this topic

[tobes]

I've got a Yamaha RXV650 - have never used the analog audio inputs - was wondering if anyone knows whether you can adjust the audio delay on these inputs. The manual states that the soundfield programs are unavailable, but does not specifically mention the audio delay.
It would seem odd if this was unavailable, since there would be no way to sync audio/video when using the analog inputs.

[RodN]

tobes, on Jul 19 2007, 03:41 PM, said:

I've got a Yamaha RXV650 - have never used the analog audio inputs - was wondering if anyone knows whether you can adjust the audio delay on these inputs. The manual states that the soundfield programs are unavailable, but does not specifically mention the audio delay.
It would seem odd if this was unavailable, since there would be no way to sync audio/video when using the analog inputs.

Delay is normally implemented in the digital domain. There should be delay/distance adjustment via your player.  Mine doesn't have delay via analog in it's basically just volume control to preserve the signal as much as possible.

[:)]

usually can do in the player. otherwise depends on the avr, my HK allows it but not sure if the case on yams. you might be better off posting in the HT forum on this one to a wider audience as not everyone might come wandering this way.

[MarkTecher]

Personally I think the whole "EXT IN" was not thought out very well - delay and bass management should all have been part of the design for every model out there.  If you go to the trouble of setting up your system for a certain room, why would any of the parameters change just because you now choose to listen to a source connected to the EXT IN ?

Mark

[tobes]

RodN, on Jul 21 2007, 09:29 PM, said:

Delay is normally implemented in the digital domain. There should be delay/distance adjustment via your player.  Mine doesn't have delay via analog in it's basically just volume control to preserve the signal as much as possible.

I suspected as much.
The manual doesn't explicitly say this for my Yamaha receiver - but this now appears to be the case.  
How on earth do people sync sound to video when using the analog input option on their receivers??
I checked another receiver - the Denon AVR-2307 - and the manual definitely states audio delay is not available on the ext analog inputs.
There is no option in my Sony BDP-S1 player for adjusting delay (although the OSD hints at future features) - so those expensively implemented analog outputs would appear to be useless? Maybe only useful for multi-channel, audio only, BD discs?

So the only option to get the lossless audio formats with the Sony S1E BD player *in sync with video* would appear to be via the HDMI output(?)

[:)]

tobes, on Jul 24 2007, 08:47 PM, said:

I suspected as much.
The manual doesn't explicitly say this for my Yamaha receiver - but this now appears to be the case.  
How on earth do people sync sound to video when using the analog input option on their receivers??
I checked another receiver - the Denon AVR-2307 - and the manual definitely states audio delay is not available on the ext analog inputs.
There is no option in my Sony BDP-S1 player for adjusting delay (although the OSD hints at future features) - so those expensively implemented analog outputs would appear to be useless? Maybe only useful for multi-channel, audio only, BD discs?

So the only option to get the lossless audio formats with the Sony S1E BD player *in sync with video* would appear to be via the HDMI output(?)

yeah noticed the sony blu-ray pretty damn basic in the analog audio out for setup. I'll be doing all level and delay setup in my hk avr tobes. pity though the sony doesnt even have a level check test tone so can atleast check levels comng through are good through what have set on the avr.

[MarkTecher]

alebonau, on Jul 24 2007, 09:19 PM, said:

yeah noticed the sony blu-ray pretty damn basic in the analog audio out for setup. I'll be doing all level and delay setup in my hk avr tobes. pity though the sony doesnt even have a level check test tone so can atleast check levels comng through are good through what have set on the avr.

How is the LFE/SW out put on these HD formats?  DVD-A requires the SW to be increased by 15dB on my system, it is the same for BD?

Mark

[:)]

MarkTecher, on Jul 24 2007, 09:32 PM, said:

How is the LFE/SW out put on these HD formats?  DVD-A requires the SW to be increased by 15dB on my system, it is the same for BD?

Mark

not sure on the sony blu-ray mark, on the tosh hd-dvd it needed a 10db boost on the lfe if using analog outs. when get it up and goign I will compare bass on the sony using dig coax out vs multichannel to check out.

[tobes]

MarkTecher, on Jul 24 2007, 09:32 PM, said:

How is the LFE/SW out put on these HD formats?  DVD-A requires the SW to be increased by 15dB on my system, it is the same for BD?

Mark

Sorry, I don't know the answer to that Mark.
I only use 4 (decent) speakers - I'm a bit fussy about bass and midrange quality - and have simply used the Yamaha's auto (mic) setup to mix down to those. Balance seems ok doing this - but my mid-size speakers roll off the bottom octave.
I was looking at getting a centre worthy of my Harbeth fronts (maybe the Spendor C9e) and a quality SW, then using the analog outputs - but the lack of audio delay with my Yamaha has killed off this idea for now.

FWIW - I just looked at the Rotel RSX1057 and that does offer audio delay (and all processing features) on analog inputs (defeatable if required). To do this it actually reconverts analog signals to the digital domain - an extra layer of processing obviously - but at least it offers the feature. As someone stated above, this would obviously be better done at the player itself.
Unfortunately the Rotel only offers HDMI video pass-through switching and does not accept audio over hdmi - so will not accept the 7.1LPCM lossless audio signal from the my Sony S1E. Jeez, if anything the receiver market is even less well developed/conceived than the Hi-def players - and that's saying something.

[the joz]

alebonau, on Jul 24 2007, 09:19 PM, said:

yeah noticed the sony blu-ray pretty damn basic in the analog audio out for setup. I'll be doing all level and delay setup in my hk avr tobes. pity though the sony doesnt even have a level check test tone so can atleast check levels comng through are good through what have set on the avr.

I know this is of topic,but Al are yoou sniffing the Sony BD???

Also just watched Casino Royale again and noticed all the Sony BD players racked up in the survailance room.Mate was that whole film made as a Sony add??

There you go back OT now :ph34r:

[MarkTecher]

alebonau, on Jul 24 2007, 09:50 PM, said:

not sure on the sony blu-ray mark, on the tosh hd-dvd it needed a 10db boost on the lfe if using analog outs. when get it up and goign I will compare bass on the sony using dig coax out vs multichannel to check out.

Thanks, I ask because the LFE track has always been encoded at -10dB for audio formats like DD and DTS.  The format decoder then boosts the signal upon decoding to restore the balance.  When DVD-A came out, most of us were (are) forced to use the analogue connections.  It seems that the same -10dB thing was done here as well, but thing became a little complicated when -
A. to prevent input overload, the EXT IN did not provide the boost automatically, but required the end user to do it by the EXT IN's trims and
B. some players (like mine) attenuate the bass by a further 5dB when "small" is selected for the main speakers.  

So what I need is 15dB of gain to equal a signal off the same disc when comparing the digital in Vs the EXT IN.  Lucky the EXT IN has its own set of trims...

I was just curious to see how these new formats were handling the BM for HD sources.  No doubt the same, but I hope the end consumer is better informed this time round, or there will be some PO's end users...
  
Mark

[:)]

the joz, on Jul 24 2007, 10:04 PM, said:

I know this is of topic,but Al are yoou sniffing the Sony BD???

Also just watched Casino Royale again and noticed all the Sony BD players racked up in the survailance room.Mate was that whole film made as a Sony add??

There you go back OT now :ph34r:

hehe picked it up today joz, jb is selling them for around $1000 so too hard to pass up. Soon to have a play, jsut been wandering around through its menus abd hooking up and the like so far.

yeah the sony player comes with casino royale so no no coincedence I can tell you hehe

[:)]

MarkTecher, on Jul 24 2007, 10:24 PM, said:

Thanks, I ask because the LFE track has always been encoded at -10dB for audio formats like DD and DTS.  The format decoder then boosts the signal upon decoding to restore the balance.  When DVD-A came out, most of us were (are) forced to use the analogue connections.  It seems that the same -10dB thing was done here as well, but thing became a little complicated when -
A. to prevent input overload, the EXT IN did not provide the boost automatically, but required the end user to do it by the EXT IN's trims and
B. some players (like mine) attenuate the bass by a further 5dB when "small" is selected for the main speakers.  

So what I need is 15dB of gain to equal a signal off the same disc when comparing the digital in Vs the EXT IN.  Lucky the EXT IN has its own set of trims...

I was just curious to see how these new formats were handling the BM for HD sources.  No doubt the same, but I hope the end consumer is better informed this time round, or there will be some PO's end users...
  
Mark

hi mark the tricky thing is the tosh hd-dvd players dont allow gain only reductions in their inbuilt trims. the sony appears to provide nothign at all as far as level adjustments when using anaolg multichannel. so something needing to be done totally in the avr/pro-pro though not sure too many with a 15db ability most I thik will only boost 10db.

[MarkTecher]

alebonau, on Jul 24 2007, 10:30 PM, said:

hi mark the tricky thing is the tosh hd-dvd players dont allow gain only reductions in their inbuilt trims. the sony appears to provide nothign at all as far as level adjustments when using anaolg multichannel. so something needing to be done totally in the avr/pro-pro though not sure too many with a 15db ability most I thik will only boost 10db.

The player offers nothing to adjust trims or delay so I have to use the AVR controls.  My AVR has two sets of trims - digital/analogue inputs (0.5dB adjustments from -10 to +10) and EXT IN (1.0dB adjustments from -10 to +10), but whilst there appears to be delay adjustments in 0.1m increments for the digital/analogue in, there appears to be nothing for the EXT In which is what I think the OP wanted to know how to fix.

As I said, the whole MC in was not thought out properly and now it seems to be set in concrete so that the player manufactures now have to take up the slack...

Mark

[:)]

MarkTecher, on Jul 24 2007, 11:05 PM, said:

The player offers nothing to adjust trims or delay so I have to use the AVR controls.  My AVR has two sets of trims - digital/analogue inputs (0.5dB adjustments from -10 to +10) and EXT IN (1.0dB adjustments from -10 to +10), but whilst there appears to be delay adjustments in 0.1m increments for the digital/analogue in, there appears to be nothing for the EXT In which is what I think the OP wanted to know how to fix.

As I said, the whole MC in was not thought out properly and now it seems to be set in concrete so that the player manufactures now have to take up the slack...

Mark

have jsut finished setting the sony blu-ray up. have used pretty much left avr level settings and delays as use for dvd and just applied a 10db boost in the avr for lfe. watching apocalypto in lossless via the multichannel analog ins sounds very nice. might leave this way and see how it goes for a few movies.

[MarkTecher]

alebonau, on Jul 24 2007, 11:37 PM, said:

have jsut finished setting the sony blu-ray up. have used pretty much left avr level settings and delays as use for dvd and just applied a 10db boost in the avr for lfe. watching apocalypto in lossless via the multichannel analog ins sounds very nice. might leave this way and see how it goes for a few movies.

Not sure what your system does, but when I calibrate my system, the main trim values are carried over those "other" trims.  This confused me initially as when I selected the channels by the remote, they displayed the same, so I thought they were the same and therefore I didn't want to touch any for the sake of HR MC playback.  Once I realized that there was infact 2 sets of trims, it didn't matter anymore.  But your right, if you have use the ITTG for main calibration, with the exception of the LFE channel needing a boost, all other channels should be the same.  There is nothing on delays though...

Mark

[tobes]

The inability to adjust audio delay may not be just be isolated to Multi-Ch analog inputs. The manual for the Sony STR-DA3200es seems to indicate that no delay is available on multi-ch PCM sound input from the HDMI connector. Why on earth would Sony omit this? Strike another receiver off my list.

[:)]

tobes, on Jul 26 2007, 06:50 PM, said:

The inability to adjust audio delay may not be just be isolated to Multi-Ch analog inputs. The manual for the Sony STR-DA3200es seems to indicate that no delay is available on multi-ch PCM sound input from the HDMI connector. Why on earth would Sony omit this? Strike another receiver off my list.

yes theres a few that do this, keep in mind when taking an analog signal in not all avrs will have the digital circuits to add delays etc. many do infact assume that will come in the players that will do that in the digital domain before converting to analog to send via the multi ch outputs.

[tobes]

alebonau, on Jul 26 2007, 09:48 PM, said:

yes theres a few that do this, keep in mind when taking an analog signal in not all avrs will have the digital circuits to add delays etc. many do infact assume that will come in the players that will do that in the digital domain before converting to analog to send via the multi ch outputs.

Al, the analog I can understand - since that would involve A/D then D/A conversion - but the MultiCh pcm input via the HDMI?? That's just stupid IMO.

[:)]

tobes, on Jul 27 2007, 09:04 AM, said:

Al, the analog I can understand - since that would involve A/D then D/A conversion - but the MultiCh pcm input via the HDMI?? That's just stupid IMO.

yes it is stupid for mch pcm via hdmi. its bit of mine field out htere at present I think with this newer stuff. and the intricacies unfortunately dotn find out till you buy it and start using !

[tobes]

I'm gonna have to eat some humble pie here.......but what the heck, it tastes sooo good!

I use a four channel speaker setup - no centre - and thought I couldn't use the Mch inputs from my Sony S1E BD player because my Yamaha 650 wouldn't mix down the centre channel info, ie volume adjustment only on Mch inputs.
So I recheck the Sony S1E speaker setup - and, of course, I find that it will do the digital mixdown to 4 speakers.
Then I hook it up, fully expecting that audio will be madly out of sync with the HDMI video - because that's how it is on the digital inputs (without delay applied). Wrong again.
In reality, audio/video sync is about perfect on the Mch inputs - though it baffles me why this is the case....perhaps the Sony player is applying some digital delay?

Overall volume using the  analog Mch input is about 10dB lower than the the Toslink/Coax inputs in my setup - but once levels are adjusted, the SQ is a massive improvement!!  
Low level/fine detail, positional focus and the sheer natualness of reproduction are a huge stride forward. Dynamics/transients have more 'startle' factor. I'm wrapped with the results.
Note: this is compared to the 'straight' - no soundfield programs etc - setting on the toslink/coax inputs. Discs used for evaluation were "Legends of Jazz", "Corpse Bride" and "The Fifth Element - Remastered".

Now if you'll excuse me....I have some pie to eat.....Chomp, Chomp, Chomp......