76 replies to this topic

[Spearmint]

Room EQ Wizard and the Behringer FBQ2496.

Okay this is going to be a first for me using both the software and the new model BFD. Always on the lookout for a sucker err guinea pig and along comes Norpus…

I have been a long time user of other computer based programs for measuring in-room responses and RTA duties, and have a dedicated laptop for doing this job. I have been following this free software since its inception but have never bothered to use it as the current programs I use do the job very nicely albeit somewhat cumbersome with regards to programming a Parametric EQ. One of the great things about Room EQ Wizard is it can program the filters on the Behringer BFD1124P, FBQ2496, and Velodyne SMS1, directly from the software based on the in-room response.

Since a growing number of members on this forum are procuring the Velodyne DD range of subwoofers with the built in RTA and EQ, and are reporting back as to how easy they are to use and what a great job they do with regards to taming room modes, using the Room EQ Wizard software and the FBQ2496 I’m guessing will be a poor mans version of the Velodyne SMS1, which for all intense and purposes is the same RTA hardware/software included in the DD range of subs for use with other brands of subs.

Nobby has used Room EQ Wizard successfully in his setup as shown here and is going to be onsite as well for some very fast training on its abilities.

The object of the day is going to be to connect the 2ch pre and the HT LFE to the one sub simultaneously and to provide an active crossover for the 2ch pre and of course some EQ to help with the subs in-room response for both 2ch & HT.

To be continued…

[Azz123]

A proposed training day??

Spearmint youve done something my wife does!!
Told me 1/2 a story, then walked out of the room leaving me with bait upon my breath waiting for the finish!!    

Geography would prohibit myself going though I'm sure many would love to latch onto the knowledge of others that have been through the trials and tribulations of the BFD, and even what one has to do with an SPL meter when calibrating lower frequencies.

One thing Ive always wondered - An SPL Meter is a circa $50 piece of kit. Just how well are they calibrated? How well do they perform within certain ranges? How does one truly calibrate their SPL meter?

I can relate it to the many years I spent involved in the tyre industry. Just because youve spent $50 on a preasure gauge does not deem it to have been calibrated any more acurately than a $5 one from Supercheap.
The difference is you can change the calibration of the $50 gauge if you have access to one that is calibrated by the likes of an officer of Weights & Measures.

See, now youve got me making assumptions! Are you going to tell me off for assuming as well??


Im off to talk whale with my DD for a while....  

A

[RodN]

Azz123, on May 13 2006, 10:30 AM, said:

One thing Ive always wondered - An SPL Meter is a circa $50 piece of kit. Just how well are they calibrated? How well do they perform within certain ranges? How does one truly calibrate their SPL meter?

They are actually not that good with lower frequencies however room EQ Wizard has a set of adjustments that will make the SPL meter a little more accurate. But there is no substituting a good quality mic which we will be using at Norpus' place.

[Spearmint]

Azz123, on May 13 2006, 10:30 AM, said:

A proposed training day??

Spearmint youve done something my wife does!!
Told me 1/2 a story, then walked out of the room leaving me with bait upon my breath waiting for the finish!!    

Ahh maybe your wife attends my classes on ½ truths/ err stories (j/k)

Sorry about the start with no middle and finish, that is because this is as far as I’ve got.

Azz123, on May 13 2006, 10:30 AM, said:

One thing Ive always wondered - An SPL Meter is a circa $50 piece of kit. Just how well are they calibrated? How well do they perform within certain ranges? How does one truly calibrate their SPL meter?

As Nobby as said they are not very accurate especially in the lower and upper frequencies. Although there is calibration tables available these are at best a compromise since every meter will have differences. One also needs to understand that what we are going to be doing with Norpus’s sub is only going to be a rough fix since we are not looking at room problems and are just EQ’ing for one spot in the room. Therefore people sitting or standing in other parts of the room will have completely different responses. Plus the addition of others in the room also changes the response.

One of these days there will be affordable active EQ’s that can measure in multiple locations and adjust in real time. So at this point we are using a poor mans system which in all intense and purposes should give some nice improvements. Remember this is probably what the owners of the DD subs are doing measuring and correcting for one location. Velodyne have an add on coming with five microphones that will measure in five locations and average out the results.

[JohnA]

not happy that i can't make this day, damn mothers day  
have fun guys and yes do tell how room eq works as i am thinking of getting the  Behringer also

[:)]

hehehe excellent read, yes pity can't be there myself for a bit of training. Do post some before and afters and some progress plots as you go along to show the changes made and their effect. Looking forward to the continuation and the step by step online tutorial...hehehe

[norpus]

alebonau, on May 13 2006, 11:41 AM, said:

hehehe excellent read, yes pity can't be there myself for a bit of training. Do post some before and afters and some progress plots as you go along to show the changes made and their effect. Looking forward to the continuation and the step by step online tutorial...hehehe

Can I come spearmint?
eep eep eep

[norpus]

Spearmint can we also record a sweep using just the 802d mains? I'd be interested to understand how much extra integrating the sub does even for good speakers - I can certainly hear a positive difference but would love to see it graphically too. (I like watching Als sms1 on screen too)

I think it will show how much a good sub can add to the experience of good speakers (as you, Rick and others have also said before) The difficulty as you know is integrating the sub into 2ch as well as using same sub for HT. That's what I bought the 3 behringers for and my mind is open and willing to learn tomorrow from the Master...

[Spearmint]

norpus, on May 13 2006, 12:36 PM, said:

Spearmint can we also record a sweep using just the 802d mains? I'd be interested to understand how much extra integrating the sub does even for good speakers - I can certainly hear a positive difference but would love to see it graphically too. (I like watching Als sms1 on screen too)

I think it will show how much a good sub can add to the experience of good speakers (as you, Rick and others have also said before) The difficulty as you know is integrating the sub into 2ch as well as using same sub for HT. That's what I bought the 3 behringers for and my mind is open and willing to learn tomorrow from the Master...

Having a bit of a play with the program, it allows for measuring your other speakers as well, looks to be a great bit of software.

I can always use my other software for taking and recording measurements if required.

norpus, on May 13 2006, 12:36 PM, said:

my mind is open and willing to learn tomorrow from the Master...

Yes it's going to be good having Nobby present.

[Spearmint]

alebonau, on May 13 2006, 11:41 AM, said:

Looking forward to the continuation and the step by step online tutorial...hehehe

Sorry to disappoint but this is the Review section!

[:)]

norpus, on May 13 2006, 12:36 PM, said:

Spearmint can we also record a sweep using just the 802d mains? I'd be interested to understand how much extra integrating the sub does even for good speakers - I can certainly hear a positive difference but would love to see it graphically too. (I like watching Als sms1 on screen too)

I think it will show how much a good sub can add to the experience of good speakers (as you, Rick and others have also said before) The difficulty as you know is integrating the sub into 2ch as well as using same sub for HT. That's what I bought the 3 behringers for and my mind is open and willing to learn tomorrow from the Master...

norpus I pretty much followed the velodyne instructions to the letter and they suggest that as one of the first steps. As gives you straight away some idea of what your mains are doing and capable off, plus some clues as to levels and possible xover point for integration. It was easily done anyway as jsut matter of runnign the sweep with the sub on mute. I did two other plots, the sub reponse itself and then the full system response with sub and mains integrated. All were well worth doing I think.

Spearmint, on May 13 2006, 04:17 PM, said:

Sorry to disappoint but this is the Review section!

spoil sport  

[RodN]

Spearmint, on May 13 2006, 02:48 PM, said:

Yes it's going to be good having Nobby present.

Yes the master of moral support will be there

I agree with you norpus I have named Spearming "the magician" before so I'm looking forward to him performing some of his magic tomorrow.

[norpus]

nobby, on May 13 2006, 07:40 PM, said:

Yes the master of moral support will be there

I agree with you norpus I have named Spearming "the magician" before so I'm looking forward to him performing some of his magic tomorrow.

Spearming   don't go there

[RodN]

norpus, on May 13 2006, 08:35 PM, said:

Spearming   don't go there

ooops....

[:)]

norpus, on May 13 2006, 08:35 PM, said:

Spearming   don't go there

heres' the good oil...

http://mysticksgrove.../spearming.html  


*sorry couldn't help goign there norpus ! hehehe

[norpus]

alebonau, on May 13 2006, 09:22 PM, said:

heres' the good oil...

http://mysticksgrove.../spearming.html  
*sorry couldn't help goign there norpus ! hehehe

Hehe  -  I heard he liked the maori girls once
http://translate.goo...e...3D&safe=off

I liked this one
http://www.spraci.net/event.cgi/17684
The mind boggles what he gets up to there - spoonjuice? rhinos?

mm it gets worse..
spearming certainly got around
http://fantezii.com/...g-spearming.php

[:)]

norpus, on May 13 2006, 09:32 PM, said:

Hehe  -  I heard he liked the maori girls once
http://translate.goo...e...3D&safe=off

I liked this one
http://www.spraci.net/event.cgi/17684
The mind boggles what he gets up to there - spoonjuice? rhinos?

mm it gets worse..
spearming certainly got around
http://fantezii.com/...g-spearming.php

whatever it is no doubt the behringers get thouroughly bathed in it before getting tweaked  

maybe you have to drink the stuff apparently "for healing, finding your love, or working on your mental powers. "

norpus, on May 13 2006, 09:32 PM, said:

mm it gets worse..
spearming certainly got around
http://fantezii.com/...g-spearming.php

or maybe not hehehe

[Spearmint]

A bit of an update from today with the connecting and EQ of the sub for both 2ch & HT.

The first hour and a half was involved in connecting up all the apparatus and making sure everything worked. There was one change in the original plan and this was so both the HT & 2ch were connected to the sub and mains at the same time, and there was no need for switching cables between the 2ch pre & HT for the main speakers.

Anyway we got that one figured out and working then next came the setting up of the EQ for the sub. Now I have to admit this was a bit of a fast learning curve for Norpus and me, but between us we got the basics figured out. It really does a good job IMO; it programs the filters as well so things were done in a very quick time. I would guess that the learning of using the software and getting the final result of today took an hour.

Here are the results. BTW this is sub only and the xover is set at 60Hz, the before is the auto setting using the software, and the after is with our manual tweaking.

We then did some listening for another hour or so of 2ch and HT to ensure that all was working, I think Norpus was a bit disappointed with the audible results. I suggested he should listen for a few days to see if he gets used to the sound, if not we can tweak a few things to give it some zing.

[RodN]

Spearmint, on May 14 2006, 10:22 PM, said:

Here are the results. BTW this is sub only and the xover is set at 60Hz, the before is the auto setting using the software, and the after is with our manual tweaking.

Looks like a lovely result there ... sorry I couldn't be there to have some fun with you guys.

[Spearmint]

nobby, on May 14 2006, 10:46 PM, said:

Looks like a lovely result there ... sorry I couldn't be there to have some fun with you guys.

Thanks Nobby.

Once you get the hang of the software it is really not that difficult to use. It took me a while to understand what the software was doing with regards to the auto filter adjustments then of course playing with the manual settings.

I think I need to play around with the program some more at home to get a better understanding of how it all works. The setting of the manual filters didn’t appear to have an on screen graphic overlay to help with the slopes and widths, this could have been me missing something with the program so this added to the time in getting the results we did.

As I explained to Norpus a lot of the peaks and troughs are not symmetrical i.e. the angle of slope on either side of the peak or trough are not the same. Therefore one needs to use a couple of filters sometimes to smooth out the response. Also this result is only limited to one location (the prime seat) so the response at the other seats will be different.

Time will tell if Norpus is happy with the results, he can always bypass the filters to compare the before and after, plus we can tweak the filters to add a bit more punch at a later date if required.

When Norpus eventually gets a 2ch pre with HT bypass the HT side should improve as then he will be able to customise the sub for both 2ch & HT were as at the moment both settings are the same due to the modified way we set the gear up so there was no cable swapping required between 2ch & HT for the main channels.

[RodN]

Spearmint, on May 15 2006, 06:00 AM, said:

I think I need to play around with the program some more at home to get a better understanding of how it all works. The setting of the manual filters didn't appear to have an on screen graphic overlay to help with the slopes and widths, this could have been me missing something with the program so this added to the time in getting the results we did.

This is interesting as normally that is one of the overlays that does show up automatically.

Are you saying that after tuning that the sound was less dynamic by thinking Norpus wasn't happy with the results?  Perhaps lack of a 'hump' took all the excitement out of it?

[JohnA]

Spearmint, on May 14 2006, 10:22 PM, said:

Here are the results. BTW this is sub only and the xover is set at 60Hz, the before is the auto setting using the software, and the after is with our manual tweaking.

We then did some listening for another hour or so of 2ch and HT to ensure that all was working, I think Norpus was a bit disappointed with the audible results. I suggested he should listen for a few days to see if he gets used to the sound, if not we can tweak a few things to give it some zing.

the plot looks good, i think norpus is missing the earth shattering bass, does the behringer allow you to store a few different settings?
if so he could have 1 for play and one for critical listening

[norpus]

nobby, on May 15 2006, 08:00 AM, said:

This is interesting as normally that is one of the overlays that does show up automatically.

Are you saying that after tuning that the sound was less dynamic by thinking Norpus wasn't happy with the results?  Perhaps lack of a 'hump' took all the excitement out of it?

Hey who says Norpus is not happy   How could I not be happy with the improvement from the many bumps and 40 and 50Hz crevasses I had before? I am happy.
I was perplexed at the different sound I thought I heard in the first 1/2 hour. However that was me trying to get my head around how my favourite reference track sounded less punchy than normal. You are correct nobby, the smoothing of the original humps have altered the sound but I do not believe detrimentally.

I was also listening standing up at the time, and as spearmint points out, the EQ is only optimised for a single point (sitting in the listening chair). 1/2 mtr away from that point and all bets are off, as we know.

Mrs Norpus and I watched a movie last night (Alexander) and the bass was a step up from before -  a lot smoother and lower. I think this effect was not the movie but the result of the EQ. The sub 60Hz was so rich we remarked on it several times - and this was not even during big booming scenes. I think my IB is performing to yet another level now.

[Spearmint]

nobby, on May 15 2006, 08:00 AM, said:

This is interesting as normally that is one of the overlays that does show up automatically.

Are you saying that after tuning that the sound was less dynamic by thinking Norpus wasn't happy with the results?  Perhaps lack of a 'hump' took all the excitement out of it?

The problem for me anyway, was trying to get my head around the program and get it operational in a very short time, due to time constraints. When I get a bit of time I’ll have a play at home to better understand all the bits and pieces.

[norpus]

JohnA, on May 15 2006, 08:14 AM, said:

the plot looks good, i think norpus is missing the earth shattering bass, does the behringer allow you to store a few different settings?
if so he could have 1 for play and one for critical listening

I agree the plot looks as good as one could expect. We still had another 7 filters we could enable (there are 20) but it was starting to get fruitless chasing nirvana in the time we had available.

I just love the way it does not 'tail off' below 20Hz like most box subs. There is nothing we can do below 20Hz with the BFD. It just won't program any filters below 20.00Hz. We did program one in for a cut at 20Hz. So we cannot do anything about the subsonic humps at 16dB and 10dB    oh well, just have to enjoy them I guess!! (For those of us with normal box subs, one will never have heard/felt these ever before anyway ) Do I sound happy yet?

A big thankyou to Spearmint for bringing around the magicians boxes and setting up the show. The amount of time saved by the auto filter downloads and resweeps was fascinating - my head was spinning most of the time while I watched in awe. I am still a little confused as to the full capability of these 3 Behringer pieces - the airport at Tullamarine has got less lights than my rack now, which is kinda fun. I'll post a piccy soon