643 replies to this topic

[MarkTecher]

Part of the THX certification is a calibrated volume control.  This includes the level that the test tones are out put at.  THX requires the test tones to equate to a signal at -30dBFS or +75dB (based on film sound spec of 105dB max undistorted level where 105dB is the Full Scale).

The problems is not all AVR output a true -30dBFS, with some outputting higher or lower values.  This then results in inaccurate reference levels.

The use of test discs would be Ok if the test disc was credited to what level is recorded to, and if the tones were made for the home theatre market.  Most use film mixing practice (like JPK and AVIA), so what you end up with is surround levels that playback too loud.

Pro sound in post production and cinema calibrate their surrounds to be down by 3dB, so that the sum equals one screen channel.  The surround levels are therefore higher for the cinema than the home comsumer version.  Film to video tranfers have the surrounds reduced by 3dB so that when played back on a sound system calibrated to have all channels the same, will sound correct...

Mark

[alcoop]

I used this method last night to calibrate my Pioneer AX2 with Acoustic Energy speakers & AAD sub. The MCACC auto setup on the Pio receiver pretty much had all the levels set to approx 75db at listening position already. However the sub was set about 7db lower. When bringing the sub up to 75db it seemed like to much bass when watching a dvd so i reduced it back.

Anyone else find the sub level of 75db to high?

[RodN]

alcoop, on Jun 9 2006, 11:59 AM, said:

Anyone else find the sub level of 75db to high?

*sigh* there are just too many long winded posts in this thread that confuse the issue.

It depends on if the rest of the speakers are.... this is really not rocket science.. all you have to do is make sure that all speakers are LEVEL MATCHED.

So unless you have an SPL meter to do it yourself trust your ears and the MCACC and leave it as it is because that 7db down is there to ensure all speakers are level matched.

[alcoop]

nobby, on Jun 9 2006, 12:05 PM, said:

It depends on if the rest of the speakers are.... this is really not rocket science

are what? The rest of the speakers are set at 75db using SPL meter at listening position. The sub at 75db seems to much.  May not be rocket science to some but I thought it was a valid question.

[MarkTecher]

It also depends on if your speakers are set to all large + Sb or all small + Sub (which is what my inital post is based on) or large L and R, small C and Surs + Sub...

Mark

[RodN]

I didn't mean it to sound like I was picking on you alcoop.

To produce the same reference level of 75db as the rest of the speakers your receiver has reduced the sub output by 7db. So when it's at this they are all LEVEL.

Your sub has a separate volume control, that's why the receiver is adjusting so much otherwise it's just personal preference that you don't like it that high.

alcoop, on Jun 9 2006, 12:12 PM, said:

are what? The rest of the speakers are set at 75db using SPL meter at listening position. The sub at 75db seems to much.  May not be rocket science to some but I thought it was a valid question.

[alcoop]

I think maybe you are misunderstanding me. I am using a SPL meter to measure the sound level on all speakers & sub. So when I adjust the sub level either via the receiver or gain on the sub to measure 75db on the SPL meter it seems to overwhelming during movie playback. My main speakers seem to produce a lot of bass also, maybe this is the reason it seems to much.
When I revert it back to the way the MCACC setup calibrated by the receiver the sub only measures 68db on the SPL meter(all other speakers still 75db), however sounds much better.

My main speakers are set to large, I think the rears set to small + sub.

So I guess I just use the receiver setup as it sounds better.

[RodN]

alcoop, on Jun 9 2006, 01:38 PM, said:

My main speakers are set to large, I think the rears set to small + sub.So I guess I just use the receiver setup as it sounds better.

Well then Mark had your answer - trust the MCACC they are quite good. By setting them to large your mains are doubling up the bass.

[alcoop]

Ok that makes sense. Thankyou!  

[MarkTecher]

nobby, on Jun 9 2006, 02:13 PM, said:

By setting them to large your mains are doubling up the bass.

And would explain a 6dB (though you said 7) increase...

Mark

[Andrew@HTE]

Great to see people talking about this.

Just a quick note. I see a few people mentioned the RS SPL meter and its a great unit but not perfect. However there is an adjusted CD called "test CD 2" exactly for this meter that is available on the web see http://www.rivesaudi...softframes.html. Well worth having as it was created exactly for this meter it will make your tests much more accurate.


Andrew.

HAA & ISF Calibrator.
Sencore SP295c
Dag 5161
ACP6500
VP401

[bennos]

I've recently upgraded my speakers and amp but am still finding I have the same issue as I did before the upgrade. The new amp is a Denon AVR-1906 and the speakers are Boston Acoustic front main and centre channels. The rear speakers are still to be upgraded (not important for this post).

The problem:
The dialogue is always too soft. No matter whether it's the STB or DVD I'm watching. It is always too soft to hear properly while all the other sounds are too loud. Though it happens while watching STB, it is most noticeable while watching DVD movies.

Is this something that anyone else has/had problems with? If so and you found a fix, how did you do it? It's so annoying... Turn it up for the talking parts in a movie and all the other sounds/scenes are way too loud. It's at the point now where I watch most things with the remote in hand and am constantly changing the volume according to scenes. How ridiculous is that!!

Things I've tried:
For those that know Denon amps. I ran the auto setup as per instructions and used the setup microphone to calibrate the speakers.. The problem was still there so I tried to play around with the volume of each individual channel. That proved useless as other sounds besides the dialogue also comes out of the centre channel too.

Connection Style:
The DVD player and STB are both connected to the amp via optical cables.
While watching a DVD, the amp is set to DolbyPL, the DVD player is set to Dolby Digital.
The amp automatically switches to the Dolby Digital once the DVD starts.
I understand that SD (STB) are mostly broadcast in stereo. Would it be better to just set the amp to output 2.0 channel or is the amp really able to distribute the sounds through the 5.0 channels (I don't have a subwoofer)?

[MarkTecher]

bennos, on Sep 3 2006, 09:55 PM, said:

Things I've tried:
For those that know Denon amps. I ran the auto setup as per instructions and used the setup microphone to calibrate the speakers.. The problem was still there so I tried to play around with the volume of each individual channel. That proved useless as other sounds besides the dialogue also comes out of the centre channel too.

This is the first problem - get your self a SPL meter so you can actually read the needle.  Sure the mic works, and there are those that swear by it, but I am going to suggest that it is not that accurate as a SPL meter...

Quote

Connection Style:
The DVD player and STB are both connected to the amp via optical cables.
While watching a DVD, the amp is set to DolbyPL, the DVD player is set to Dolby Digital.
The amp automatically switches to the Dolby Digital once the DVD starts.
I understand that SD (STB) are mostly broadcast in stereo. Would it be better to just set the amp to output 2.0 channel or is the amp really able to distribute the sounds through the 5.0 channels (I don't have a subwoofer)?

No Sub means your speakers (hopefully only front L and R) are set large.  Get a SUB ASAP and set all speakers to small.  You will experience a major difference...

Mark

[Reaper]

I've decided to get an SPL meter,  as I've never been happy with the speaker balance (the left always seems a little softer or louder than the right,  I can't find the sweet spot) and I know the rear L/R/C could be better as well.

What I don't have is a test disc.  Where is the best place to get one and which ones are best?  I've looked around and most of the online dvd places I frequent don't have them.    Or anyone on the Sunshine Coast that wouldn't mind lending a disc/spl meter or helping to setup would be greatly appreciated.

I'm still a bit green with all this HT equipment,  upgraded a 3rd rate system with reasonable system (1000x better than what I had,  would have made most audiophiles cry).  I'm happy with the sound,  but could use a little more to hit the sweet spot for watching movies and Austar/DTV.

Equipment

Yamaha HTR5650 (AU)
Precision Audio YD2 5.0 Speakers
DTX 200W 10" Active Subwoofer

[MarkTecher]

Reaper, on Sep 27 2006, 01:04 AM, said:

I've decided to get an SPL meter,  as I've never been happy with the speaker balance (the left always seems a little softer or louder than the right,  I can't find the sweet spot) and I know the rear L/R/C could be better as well.

Hopefully you will have better results with the SPL meter...

Quote

What I don't have is a test disc.  Where is the best place to get one and which ones are best?  I've looked around and most of the online dvd places I frequent don't have them.    Or anyone on the Sunshine Coast that wouldn't mind lending a disc/spl meter or helping to setup would be greatly appreciated.

I will suggest that your better off using the ITG in the AVR.  The only real benifit of using a test disc (if you know what level it plays back at) is for cross referencing the level of the tones.  I would suggest using a test disc for a couple of reasons -

1. It is well documented that the surrounds of most test discs are too low forcing you to turn them up during calibration,  The end result is your surrounds will be too loud.
2. The exact levels vary from disc to disc.  We are aiming to reach 105dB/CH using tones recorded at 30dB lower than that, hence the 75dB reading you want to see on the meter.  There are several discs out there that are not true to the needed -30dBFS levels.
3. most test discs are limited to 5.1.  if you own a 6.1 or 7.1 system, you may not be able to accurrately measure the back surrounds as the tone will be mono for a 6.1 test disc...  

Quote

I'm still a bit green with all this HT equipment,  upgraded a 3rd rate system with reasonable system (1000x better than what I had,  would have made most audiophiles cry).  I'm happy with the sound,  but could use a little more to hit the sweet spot for watching movies and Austar/DTV.

Equipment

Yamaha HTR5650 (AU)
Precision Audio YD2 5.0 Speakers
DTX 200W 10" Active Subwoofer

Often speaker placement is the key here, not altering levels.  The sub in particular is very placment dependent, so moving it just a few cm, can change the percieved sound.

Once your system is set to a true +75dB/CH, you should more than enough headroom for most programing...

Mark

[Reaper]

Thanks for the reply.

So the internal test is fine?  If so I don't mind using it.  The test supports 6.1 so is probably best if it is accurate enough.

Quote

Often speaker placement is the key here, not altering levels. The sub in particular is very placment dependent, so moving it just a few cm, can change the percieved sound.

I tend to agree.  I've done the best I can with the room I have.  My HTR is my bedroom,  so between the chunky 68cm CRT and the queen bed there isn't a whole lot of room.  The Centre is about 2.8m from the listening position,  the mains about 3m and the Rear L/R about 1.5m,  with Rear centre about 1m.   The mains are about 1.4m from the centre,  but it is a tight fit with 1m between it and the opposing wall.


I'll get that SPL meter then,  and see how far off I was

My next house will have a bigger room,  I wasn't planning on any of this when I designed this one.

Edited by Reaper, 27 September 2006 - 05:09 AM.

[Reaper]

Well after spending about $80 and an hour calibrating the HTR I have 4 words for you.

Far King Oar Sum  

Thanks for the guide (I used yours and 2 others posted in this thread).  I'm still tweaking the SUB levels,  as each movie is different and so are stereo sources.  But overall a 100% improvement over quality.  I watched a couple of battle scenes in Matrix Revolutions and Pirates of the Caribbean (as well as the music,  WOW).

Can't believe how much of a difference it has made.  Everything sounds pretty much spot on and I was completely absorbed into the movie.

Considering I did everything on the cheap (about $1100 total) it sounds better than I ever expected

[MarkTecher]

Reaper, on Sep 27 2006, 12:50 PM, said:

Well after spending about $80 and an hour calibrating the HTR I have 4 words for you.

Far King Oar Sum  

Thanks for the guide (I used yours and 2 others posted in this thread).  I'm still tweaking the SUB levels,  as each movie is different and so are stereo sources.  But overall a 100% improvement over quality.  I watched a couple of battle scenes in Matrix Revolutions and Pirates of the Caribbean (as well as the music,  WOW).

Can't believe how much of a difference it has made.  Everything sounds pretty much spot on and I was completely absorbed into the movie.

Considering I did everything on the cheap (about $1100 total) it sounds better than I ever expected

Well done.  The thing abouts subs is don't confuse the LFE with the SUB, they are very different.  A SUB channel is effectively the low bass from all channels summed, but the LFE is an entity all of its own.  It level (notice the max is 0dB where subs have plus 10) should be set to 0dB and then the sub is set to +79dB with the meter.  Then when you switch between movies and music, you should have a nice solid extension to the system's response without the systems sounduing boomy...

Mark

[b&wbynature]

MarkTecher, on Sep 4 2006, 09:40 AM, said:

This is the first problem - get your self a SPL meter so you can actually read the needle.  Sure the mic works, and there are those that swear by it, but I am going to suggest that it is not that accurate as a SPL meter...

No Sub means your speakers (hopefully only front L and R) are set large.  Get a SUB ASAP and set all speakers to small.  You will experience a major difference...

Mark

           Ahhh just the answer I was looking for.  So in my situation where I have B & W 603 S3 mains and B & W 601 S3 rears and an LCR600 S3 centre, I would set the fronts and rears to small, now that I purchased a new sub today being a Velodyne CHT-12R???  Even though the fronts are floor standers??


                       Whilst on the calibration topic, I may eventually get an SPL but for now my receiver is a Denon AVR-2807and I use the auto set-up.  With this do I still need to set speaker distances or does the mic (set in the listening position) do that for you???


                          Further to this, with regards to the Velodyne working in conjunction with the Denon amp. I would set crossover on amp to 80hZ and then lowpass on my sub as high as can go, highpass set to 80 and direct switch activated????


                                       If someone could point me in the right direction it would be greatly appreciated.

Edited by b&wbynature, 30 September 2006 - 11:48 PM.

[RodN]

b&wbynature, on Sep 30 2006, 11:47 PM, said:

Whilst on the calibration topic, I may eventually get an SPL but for now my receiver is a Denon AVR-2807and I use the auto set-up.  With this do I still need to set speaker distances or does the mic (set in the listening position) do that for you???

You need to double check the settings the auto feature comes up with. They are notorious for getting it wrong.  

And here's one perspective on the cost of an SPL Meter: it equals 2 cd's or 2 dvd's. So if you can't afford one then you won't be buying any movies either?  I'm not trying to be smart just trying to put the cost of an SPL meter into perspective.

[MarkTecher]

b&wbynature, on Sep 30 2006, 11:47 PM, said:

Ahhh just the answer I was looking for.  So in my situation where I have B & W 603 S3 mains and B & W 601 S3 rears and an LCR600 S3 centre, I would set the fronts and rears to small, now that I purchased a new sub today being a Velodyne CHT-12R???  Even though the fronts are floor standers??

The term FULL RANGE refers to 20 - 20K, so even if your speakers go below 30Hz, they are not full range, so yes I would set them to small.  You could lower the crossover point if you feel that thet do provide good bass already.  The 80Hz crossover point was originally THX's but today many manufactures offer it as default.  Even the THX 80Hz (regardless that I think it works great) is still a bit of a compromise, as some program actually needs a higher frequecy and some a lower one.  So 80 is said to be a versatile point...

                        

Quote

Further to this, with regards to the Velodyne working in conjunction with the Denon amp. I would set crossover on amp to 80hZ and then lowpass on my sub as high as can go, highpass set to 80 and direct switch activated????
                                       If someone could point me in the right direction it would be greatly appreciated.

I would suggest keeping the same point for all HP and LP.  Some people mix and match, and end getting problems that are way out side the scope of this thread to fix...

Mark

[b&wbynature]

Cheers Mark and Nobby for your prompt feedback it is greatly appreciated.  Ok I will set front and rears to small and re-set xover to 80hZ.  And on the sub will set high and low to 80.

           Then after that all I have to really play around with would be the phase, although that is presently set to 0.


                     Looks like an investment in a DSE SPL meter is inevitable.


             Guys,

                      Just had a look on my receiver (Denon AVR-2807) and the default settings were front 40hZ, rear 40hZ and centre 200hZ.  However I have changed the fronts and rears to 80hZ and left centre at 200hZ.  Is this correct?????


                                  The LFE setting was 80hZ.


                                              Thanks once again members!

Edited by b&wbynature, 01 October 2006 - 05:02 PM.

[MarkTecher]

b&wbynature, on Oct 1 2006, 03:03 PM, said:

Cheers Mark and Nobby for your prompt feedback it is greatly appreciated.  Ok I will set front and rears to small and re-set xover to 80hZ.  And on the sub will set high and low to 80.

           Then after that all I have to really play around with would be the phase, although that is presently set to 0.
                     Looks like an investment in a DSE SPL meter is inevitable.
             Guys,

                      Just had a look on my receiver (Denon AVR-2807) and the default settings were front 40hZ, rear 40hZ and centre 200hZ.  However I have changed the fronts and rears to 80hZ and left centre at 200hZ.  Is this correct?????
                                  The LFE setting was 80hZ.
                                              Thanks once again members!

The only problem I see with having the C crossed over at 200Hz is that the mid bass below 200 and above 80 might get lost if the sub has its upper limit set at 80Hz.  It is best (providing the speakers are capable) to set all the channel filters to the same freqency.

Mark

[Reaper]

MarkTecher, on Sep 27 2006, 06:15 PM, said:

Well done.  The thing abouts subs is don't confuse the LFE with the SUB, they are very different.  A SUB channel is effectively the low bass from all channels summed, but the LFE is an entity all of its own.  It level (notice the max is 0dB where subs have plus 10) should be set to 0dB and then the sub is set to +79dB with the meter.  Then when you switch between movies and music, you should have a nice solid extension to the system's response without the systems sounduing boomy...

Mark

Just want to thank you again Mark for all your help,  I don't think I could have done it without your guide or posts.   Keep up the good work,  us newbies thank you


I've been tweaking over the last week and think I've found the optimal settings for the SUB and  speakers for this environment.    Watched U-571 after it was recommended as a good test and I have to say the sound of the depth charge scenes were spectacular.  My sub is set -3db which seems to sit around +79-80db on the SPL meter.  I watch about 9db lower than the reference point (-35db) for most content.

[MarkTecher]

Reaper, on Oct 11 2006, 09:53 PM, said:

Just want to thank you again Mark for all your help,  I don't think I could have done it without your guide or posts.   Keep up the good work,  us newbies thank you
I've been tweaking over the last week and think I've found the optimal settings for the SUB and  speakers for this environment.    Watched U-571 after it was recommended as a good test and I have to say the sound of the depth charge scenes were spectacular.  My sub is set -3db which seems to sit around +79-80db on the SPL meter.  I watch about 9db lower than the reference point (-35db) for most content.

Reaper,

What made you choose -35dB as a reference point?

Mark