62 replies to this topic

[_Gumby]

More on the Aver DVB-T Card under linux, michal found this HOWTO

http://linuxtv.org/c...type=text/plain

Which details how to get it working under linux.

The relevant thread is here:

http://www.dtvforum....p?showtopic=658

[KAMBO]

AverMedia DVB-T Digital TV Tuner   $175.00

http://www.cworld.co...d.php?CAT=Video capture card&SUBCAT=null

[Campster123]

Ok, the whole pricing thing has been changed to a more managable and fairer (for the distributors/resellers) design.

[Koops]

Great list. I only wished it had been around 1-2 weeks ago.

From this list the Hauppauge WinTV Nova-T looks like the best in terms of features/price and its does everything.

Anyone want a slightly used DTT-1000?

[Gizmomelb]

AverMedia DVB-T Digital TV Tuner...

I can maybe do them for $160.00 inc GST in a VERY LIMITED number, otherwise my boss'd kill me!

[Campster123]

Koops - the Nova-T is pretty good, doesn't quite have the Windows software maturity of the Nebula or the Visionplus, but its getting there

[MrTiny]

Spotted the Avermedia DVB-T card for $159 incl GST
at Northside Antennas.

Hard to beat at that price.

http://www.northsideantennas.com.au

[Koops]

Campster123: A suggestion for this list : include if the software that is used by this card is frequently updated/is well supported.

Seeing this appears to be the main issues between the cards to a potential card buyer it would good to say this.

Personally, as a new comer to pcdtv I would also have liked a little summary (or link to) current issues with each card. After trawling through all the posts here i've seen that even some of the best cards still don't even come close to what the set top boxes do, even though the main listing says they can do the said particular feature (live HD, record HD etc). I think it might help people not get their hopes up for a card that they are expecting to be a stb with a record function.

[Campster123]

Yeh,

I understand and was looking to do this anyways, just getting more info on alot of the software, etc before I do this though.

I do have the note on HD at the bottom though which indicates that its not all perfect and there are issues. But I will add more detailed stuff for each card eventually

[Koops]

On second thoughts does an aussie DVB-T card faq exist yet?

Maybe the sort of things im talking about need to be addressed in a document like that instead of a product comparision.

[digitaladvisor]

These are just my opinions from a WindowsXP perspective and happy DVB-T card users.

I have found that nearly all software supplied with DVB-T cards requires this:

1. A clean pure install of WindowsXP
2. A windowsXP rated motherboard and plenty of RAM
3. At least 7200RPM hard drive
4. A graphic card that is solidly DIVX compliant and has high quality PAL output with robust drivers. (the reason for this that is some are finding timing a computer to HDTV is difficult. What you have is a fall back to SVHS output and you can migrate easily to proper HD output over time without the wife glaring at you due to a blank $6,000 HDTV sitting in your lounge room!)
5. 2nd and third genration updates to sound card.
6. A through evaluation of your aerial and cabling.
7. A robust power supply in the computer.

Result:

I watch HDTV and all SDTV without problems.
I record all SD without issue

The only real issues outstanding are:

Scheduling.
Lan broadcasting of DTV.
Reliable recording of HD.
A nice interface to use.

The true benefit and cost saving is of no benefit unless there some sort of migration of this to lounge room on larger screen HD capable displays.

Otherwise it is simply a nice item to have to watch digital TV on screen in your bedroom as recreation and entertainment.

IMHO there is one only card that meets all of criteria without too much  grief that many are discovering with cheaper. Many who buy alternative are finding they are back to square one as Vision Plus owners well discovered back in early July 2003.

Nebula holds out much promise but the quality is no where near that of the VP card.

As for getting own software - IMHO - the DigiBox is shaping to be one of most advanced DVB-T software in the world.  I know I have building HTPC for four years now for friends. I have liased with many developers in DVB-T cards over the last three years.

Noone should under estimate the importance of software - many say ah yea -  but I'm only into SDTV - fine go and buy the other cards. But if we are pushing the benchmark and perhaps your computer, HTPC or whatever to the limits then go out and buy the only card with the most advanced software the VP for Windows.

Do not expect to stick a DVB-T card in your system if the Windows registry is  bloated and three years old.

Do not assume anything with your present aerial system.

Do not assume that your dearly loved computer will not require an upgrade for trouble free amd max out DVB-T usage.

Regards

DA

[Campster123]

Wow - awesome post digitaladvisor!

Hmm, I definately think there needs to be a FAQ with that sort of stuff in it and this thread and furture FAQs need to be stickied, it would make life a whole lot easier!

[MrTiny]

digitaladvisor, on Nov 12 2003, 03:13 PM, said:

The only real issues outstanding are:

Scheduling.
Lan broadcasting of DTV.
Reliable recording of HD.
A nice interface to use.

What about:

1. The well documented "motion blur" issue that seems to occur with any cards when watching live footage (ie recorded at 50HZ) on SD. This is not a problem with a set top box.

2. The difficulty in getting a 16:9 image cropped down to a 4:3 aspect ratio for display using the TV out port on the PC graphics card. All DVB cards seem to want to display at 16:9 on the TV screen. Most set top boxes allow a cropped 16:9 (pan & scan) to fill the entire TV screen on non widescreen TV's. None of the DVB cards seem to offer this option. Not everyone out there has a widescreen TV/display device.

I think these 2 issues along with a few others need to be resolved before an HTPC can truly take its place in the home theatre - particularly for the mums & dads as opposed to the computer geeks.
We still have a long way to go before an HTPC is anywhere near as simple or reliable to use as a STB.
There is still no OS or 3rd party software available to perform all HTPC functions which are many and offer facilities way beyond current home theatre equipment. XP Media Centre Edition may help but it is still a big ask.

DVB-T cards along with their corresponding software are still in their infancy - I think the technology needs to mature a lot further yet before this vital link in the HTPC is complete.

[Gizmomelb]

MrTiny, on Nov 12 2003, 04:27 PM, said:

What about:

1. The well documented "motion blur" issue that seems to occur with any cards when watching live footage (ie recorded at 50HZ) on SD. This is not a problem with a set top box.

Sorry for coming in on this - may I ask exactly what you mean about the motion blurring and if possible can you give a specific instance where it's always reproducible (ie: car racing, football, horse racing?) - is it on VGA monitors or on TV output?

Is it actual motion blur or is it an interlacing issue?

I've got an Avermedia DVB-T SD card and can't say I've ever seen any motion blurring when watching it on my VGA monitor.

I'm running the Reclock CODEC which syncs the audio and video refresh to the monitor refresh rate. Before I had it installed I'd notice the odd lipsync error or jerky video playback, now it's rock solid and never out of sync.  Check out:

http://ogo.nerim.net/reclockfilter/

for more info.


I can appreciate how progressive TS video could appear to be motion blurred or have an interlace fringe if displayed through a TV output though.  This would not be as evident on a STB as I'd expect the STB to have the proper interlace comb filtering and enough memory/cpu buffering to properly handle progressive to interlaced video conversion.  I'm sure if you used a good VGA -> TV convertor (Averkey or similar) that also has the improved filtering and buffering, that you'd get as good a picture as a dedicated STB.

There is software for the analogue TV tuners that has vastly improved filtering for the progressive <-> interlace conversion (depending if you output to TV or watch the TV on your VGA monitor) so hopefully it'll just be a matter of time until similar code is incorporated into the DTV software.


cheers,

Gizmomelb

[MrTiny]

Gizmomelb, on Nov 12 2003, 04:51 PM, said:

Sorry for coming in on this - may I ask exactly what you mean about the motion blurring and if possible can you give a specific instance where it's always reproducible (ie: car racing, football, horse racing?) - is it on VGA monitors or on TV output?

Is it actual motion blur or is it an interlacing issue?

There was a thread running a few weeks ago that discussed this "motion blurring" issue in some detail.
I have seen it on the Avermedia, Nebula and Hauppage cards and I suspect it occurs on the other cards as well.

It only occurs with standard definition broadcasts of live events which I'm told are recorded at 50Hz. It never occurs when watching movie footage - (25Hz I assume). It never occurs with HD broadcasts.
One day on SBS I could switch between SD and HD (576p) - both were displaying the same live soccer match. The HD was fine but the SD was blurred - almost unwatchable.
I have also switched between a set top box and an HTPC watching the same SD live broadcast - the STB displays it perfectly while the DVB card shows the blurring. Its more of a jerky display with some bleeding between frames.

I dont pretend to have the technical prowess to pinpoint exactly where the problem is - it occurs on both the PC monitor and the TV - no difference between the 2.
I think this rules out any problems with the TV conversion in the graphics card. I'm suprised you haven't seen this with the Avermedia card - just watch any live sports broadcast.
I have witnessed this problem on many PC's with different graphics cards and different DVB cards. If you have never had this problem then I would certainly appreciate any clues as to what can be done to avoid the problem.

Most of the DVB card manufacturers are so obsessed with HD at the moment that they dont seem interested in addressing this problem.

The respnse to the previous thread indicates that many other people have experienced the same problem. There has been all sorts of detailed explanations as why it may occur but fixes have been thin on the ground.

I only mention it as this sort of thing will create considerable public resistance to the acceptance of HTPC's as a genuine home theatre replacement.

[rumpole]

I know this is all a bit 'off thread' but I am interested in the phenomenon of 'motion blur' as well.

If you look at the girl in centre frame here: http://members.iinet...ermuth/cap.html
to me that is 'motion blur'. Compare the girl with the reflection on the floor of stationary advertising boards. The stationary things are crystal clear. I get motion blur when I don't use the H+ to decode the mpeg2 stream but when I use the H+ all motion is as clear as the stationary objects. In fact with the H+, my display is better than my mate's STB. I thought originally it was just a function of decoding speed but now I think the H+ is probably doing something more that fixes the problem. I'd love to know from someone with more technical knowledge what's going on.

[digitaladvisor]

This motion blurring happens on all 576i Sd transmissions.

Now I have compared DigiBox to WinDTV and the effect is almost non-existent on the DigiBox.

Digbox actually runs on WinDVD 5 codec whereas WinDTV runs on Cyberlink hybrid somewhere between 4 and 5 versions.

The computer on other codecs interpret this and attempt to weave. It should be in BOB mode.

Have a read on the internet on differences between BOB and WEAVE forced on video sources by mistaken flags.

Codec Video decoders are often defaulted to AUTO detect.

This is will be resolved in time and it is a mistake to think that this locked into hardware capbility between each DVB-T card. It has nothing to do the tuner cards whatsoever!

Do a search also on refinements to MS DirectX 9 and how better deinterlacing routines calls are being developed and incorporated.

Eventually in about 12 months (I have this very good authority) the first hardware based chips suitable for HDTV should become available for incorporating onto inexpensive tuner cards. The cost at present is too high.

Present MPEG 2 decoding chips DO NOT handle the range upto 1080i and these chips have dropped like stone in price in DVd players. THE HD STB no doubt have got there own decoder chipsets and this is kept under lock and key at present.

Still the answer finally will be found in both displays and better software/hardware decoding capability.

With falling on prices on Intel 4 hyperthreading processors (now at 4gig) coming through this issue to anyone who knows what it was like in the first days of software based DVD players on computers - primitive, bad decoding, lack of quality and pixelation. This is now NON-existent on Software based DVD players as improved DirectX, improved graphic cards faster processors, better O/S and improved software rolled out.

Regards

DA

[MrTiny]

digitaladvisor, on Nov 12 2003, 08:09 PM, said:

This motion blurring happens on all 576i Sd transmissions.

Now I have compared DigiBox to WinDTV and the effect is almost non-existent on the DigiBox.

Digbox actually runs on WinDVD 5 codec whereas WinDTV runs on Cyberlink hybrid somewhere between 4 and 5 versions.

The computer on other codecs interpret this and attempt to weave. It should be in BOB mode.

Have a read on the internet on differences between BOB and WEAVE forced on video sources by mistaken flags.

Codec Video decoders are often defaulted to AUTO detect.

This is will be resolved in time and it is a mistake to think that this locked into hardware capbility between each DVB-T card. It has nothing to do the tuner cards whatsoever!

Its certainly encouraging to hear that some of the more sophisticated software & codecs can eliminate this problem.

I agree that in time such issues should be completely eliminated.
What I do find frustrating is that the DVB card manufacturers are madly chasing the holy grail of HD while such basic problems remain with SD reception.

Digital TV is promoted on the basis of superior picture quality.
Any analouge TV produced in the last 30 years gives a better picture than a DVB-T card displaying the live (50Hz) broadcasts on SD.

The problem may be independant of the hardware but these products are sold as a package - the hardware+software+codecs etc.

I wont go in to any more detail - might spin this off into a separate thread.

Sorry about hijacking your topic Campster123.
The summary of the current cards is an excellent idea.

Mr Tiny

[dvbguy]

Quote

Now I have compared DigiBox to WinDTV and the effect is almost non-existent on the DigiBox.

I get no motion blur whatever using my VisionPlus, either using WinDTV or DigiBox.

[ocujos]

[quote name='MrTiny' date='Nov 14 2003, 12:17 AM'][quote name='digitaladvisor' date='Nov 12 2003, 08:09 PM']This motion blurring happens on all 576i Sd transmissions.

Now I have compared DigiBox to WinDTV and the effect is almost non-existent on the DigiBox.[/QUOTE]
MrTiny

I believe that what you call 'motion blur' is known as 'micro stutter' on Nebula site.
I have also noticed the same 'micro stutter' when watching sports shows.
Also, if you look at news tickers on eg. ch 7 morning news you'll see the same 'micro stutter'.
According to the Nebula site this bug will be fixed in soon to be released 3.1 version of their software. Here is a link to their change log for this version of software:
[url="http://www.nebula-electronics.com/beta/v3_10.asp"]http://www.nebula-electronics.com/beta/v3_10.asp[/url]

[Spoonfed]

I think "motion blur" and "micro stutter" are to separate things.

I have a VP card.


I can see Micro stutter on the card when viewed on my monitor at say 60hz refesh, BUT not on my projector at 50hz refresh, BUT yes on the projector at 60hz.  It is due the refresh no matching the broadcast refesh.

Without DxVa enabled and at 60hz i get both motion blur (ie trailing text in scrolling credit) and micro stutter (ie very very small continual pausing making the video not 100% smooth)

I can enable DxVA and get rid of motion blur but STILL have micro stutter, if i then set my refesh to 50hz i get rid of BOTH

[PuppySlurpy]

Campster123, on Nov 9 2003, 11:33 PM, said:

Wow! Never knew that! Hmmm, I might personally look into this... but I think for the sake of this thread I'll keep it with local retailers as most people don't like going to the effort of importing.

I am not an importer, nor do I have any interest (financial or otherwise) with any of the local distributors of any equipment. Just a quick note on buying online overseas...

Sure, you can do it, and it may end up being $20 cheaper, but look at the downsides:
- you are not supporting local businesses, which means they do not have the money to keep investing in offering new product
- if you have a problem, the local guys won't want to know you (go and get help from your OS supplier!)
- getting replacements on faulty gear is hard - you are not protected by Local consumer protection legislation.
- hidden costs in shipping it in (shipping, customs excise, etc).

I just think the local businesses deserve the support, and I think of the extra $$$ as a kind of insurance policy.

[HyperReality]

Spoonfed, on Nov 18 2003, 07:18 PM, said:

I think "motion blur" and "micro stutter" are two separate things.

Yes, I agree.

As may have been mentioned previously by others, stutter is generally caused due to differences between when a frame of video is shown on the display and the time that it _should_ have been shown (according the to timestamps in the data stream) due to various issues such as miscellaneous delays in frame updates, threads getting swapped by the OS at an inconvenient time, etc, whereas motion blur is generally caused by the deinterlacing algorithm that is being used.

AFAIK, Nebula have, up until now, just used an adaptive deinterlacing algorithm, but you will note that they are now listing "Bob" as an option in the upcoming v3.1 release:
http://www.nebula-el.../beta/v3_10.asp (towards the bottom of the page) - so bye, bye motion blur too...

[dvbguy]

Quote

so bye, bye motion blur too

As long as it is not "welcome something else...."

There are very good reasons why you need both "bob" and "weave".

Hopefully their new algo will autoswithc as annd when necesseray as they cyberlink and other video filters do

[Gizmomelb]

MrTiny, on Nov 12 2003, 05:45 PM, said:

Gizmomelb, on Nov 12 2003, 04:51 PM, said:

Sorry for coming in on this - may I ask exactly what you mean about the motion blurring and if possible can you give a specific instance where it's always reproducible (ie: car racing, football, horse racing?) - is it on VGA monitors or on TV output?

Is it actual motion blur or is it an interlacing issue?

There was a thread running a few weeks ago that discussed this "motion blurring" issue in some detail.
I have seen it on the Avermedia, Nebula and Hauppage cards and I suspect it occurs on the other cards as well.

It only occurs with standard definition broadcasts of live events which I'm told are recorded at 50Hz. It never occurs when watching movie footage - (25Hz I assume). It never occurs with HD broadcasts.

I think this rules out any problems with the TV conversion in the graphics card. I'm suprised you haven't seen this with the Avermedia card - just watch any live sports broadcast.

Hiya,

wow, I can't believe I missed this thread and MrTiny's response!

anyways...

thanks for the info.. I've never noticed it as I've never watched any sports broadcast (!) - though I gave the sports examples as I knew they'd have fast horizontal and vertical pans which would highlight any faults.

I'll make an effort to tune in on a live (or pre-recorded if I can't find live) sports show and try and observe the problem, but I'll mention again that I'm using the ReClock v1.2 DirectShow filter, which does the following:

(from the website: http://ogo.nerim.net/reclockfilter/   )

The purpose of ReClock is to definitely get rid of jerky playback of AVI and MPEG material on a PC (or a PC connected to a TV). It's a DirectShow filter which is loaded in place of the default directsound audio renderer.

It provides a new reference clock that is locked to the video card hardware clock, in order to ensure that frames are played at the exact speed of what is expected by the video card vertical sync.

It also provides a frame rate adaptator for media files that do not match a multiple of the video card refresh rate (ex: playback of 23,976fps IVTC NTSC on a PAL TV).

Finally it is an audio renderer with hardware or software rate adaptation in real-time, multi-channel audio, and dynamic range compression capabilities.


Since installing this filter I've never noticed any jerkiness in recording or playback of the SD DTV that the Avermedia handles and I believe it's because ReClock syncs the broadcast video (50Hz) 'properly' with the computer VGA refresh rate (was 60Hz, just changed it to 75Hz and still smooth as while watching 'Sports Tonight' with some AFL video, V8 Supercar video and Yacht racing).

I'll keep an eye out on Saturday with live broadcasts and report back.

Cheers,

Gizmomelb

PS: just got my hands on a VisionPlus card today to have a play with.. I'm hoping I get the time tomorrow to check it out.