169 replies to this topic

[charlesc]

i hate tv, on Oct 2 2007, 11:05 PM, said:

...Im pretty sure that this aerial would be great for youhttp://www.matchmaster.com.au/

That's Matchmaster's web site home page, not the antenna detail .

[i hate tv]

charlesc, on Oct 2 2007, 11:13 PM, said:

That's Matchmaster's web site home page, not the antenna detail .

Sorry, maybe my original post should have read:

The 1MM-DG27 is manufactured by MATCHMASTER, whose link can be found HERE, and the specific model can be found in this MATCHMASTER PDF and that the specific info is located on the right hand side of page 5

[i hate tv]

Hi mate, I live in Bundaberg and recently had major issues with our digital reception.

We went to our local Jaycar agent here in bundaberg and purchased a new aerial and coax and just ripped the old stuff out (it still looked good).  

The new coaxial cable was of quad shielded type (15mtrs at about $1.15/mtr) and the MATCHMASTER 1MM-DG27 Digital compatible UHF/VHF X Type Colinear Ch(6-12) (21-69)27 aerial for $96, a few really good conectors and a few hours to remove the old stuff and then install of all the new gear, and now our digital Tv reception is perfect.

I am pretty sure that this aerial would be great for you in Hervey Bay because we both source Digital TV from the same hill (near Biggenden), and our signal's both travel roughly the same distance.




Ps: I will pay strict attention to my posts in future and ensure that they read better.

[dajodan]

i hate tv, on Oct 2 2007, 11:05 PM, said:

Hi mate, I live in Bundy and recently had major issues with digital reception.

We went to Jaycar agent here in bundy and bought a new aerial and coax and just ripped the old stuff out (it still looked good).   Changed to quad shielded coax (15mtrs at about $1.15/mtr) and a 1MM-DG27 Digital compatible UHF/VHF X Type Colinear Ch(6-12) (21-69)27  aerial ($96), a few really good conectors and a few hours, Tv is now perfect.

Im pretty sure that this aerial would be great for you as we both source TV from the same hill, and roughly the same distance.

http://www.matchmaster.com.au/

Thanks for the info "I hate tv".  Is there any way of telling whether this aeriel is the best suited for the Hervey Bay area.   I have had a look at it at the Matchmaster site

[dajodan]

charlesc, on Oct 2 2007, 10:59 PM, said:

First of all, thanks for the detailed brief of what your problems are .  That does help.  There are some docs in my signature below which may better help with explaining certain aspects of digital reception.

No, some channels are quite likely to be affected more than others, depending on reception problems (echoes, interference, cable/antenna losses) etc.

Measurements by TVs/STBs/PVRs are not very reliable.  They can be quite changeable, and are often not very reliable even as a guide.  A digital field strength meter would be more accurate in showing what is really going on.  This is particularly true if the signal is fairly poor and close to the 'digital cliff' (ref docs).

If your system is operating very close to the 'digital cliff', then your reception would be doing the sort of things you appear to be seeing.

To receive reliable digital reception you need to have sufficient margin in both signal strength and signal quality (ref docs).  Without that, you are likely to see problems.

As is often said, digital reception has three main states.  Perfect picture, no picture, or a picture that is breaking up (pixellating vision and popping sound).  The latter situation happens as you enter the digital cliff zone. What is needed is sufficient margin in reception to keep clear of that zone.

Thanks charlesc. it would seem that an upgrade of aerial and cabling would be the first step.  Your replies certainly answered a few questions for us.

[charlesc]

dajodan, on Oct 11 2007, 08:14 PM, said:

Thanks charlesc. it would seem that an upgrade of aerial and cabling would be the first step.  Your replies certainly answered a few questions for us.

Glad if it helped.  Please post an update to let us know how things went on making some changes.

[alanh]

dajodan,

Read Get the Best Reception, Regional Queensland and read the links.
If you look up the Qld list for Wide Bay, then go to the link for the band and polarisations used. You will get a list of suitable antennas.

AlanH

[i hate tv]

dajodan, on Oct 11 2007, 08:12 PM, said:

Thanks for the info "I hate tv".  Is there any way of telling whether this aeriel is the best suited for the Hervey Bay area.   I have had a look at it at the Matchmaster site

We apparently receive our signal from the same mountain (goonaneman) out near biggenden, and are almost the same distance as the crow fly's so I cant see why it wouldnt work there as well.

I was wrong when I stated the price of the matchmaster 01mm-DG27 from Jaycar, it was actually $150, the 01mm-DG16 was $99, but it is also a good aerial, it just has 9 less elements.

Your best bet would be to ask in store and see how many they sell, and ask if it is suited to your area.

[i hate tv]

dajodan, on Oct 11 2007, 08:12 PM, said:

Thanks for the info "I hate tv".  Is there any way of telling whether this aeriel is the best suited for the Hervey Bay area.   I have had a look at it at the Matchmaster site

Also just noticed that your transmitter for Hervey bay shows as GHOST HILL in page 4 of AlanH's posting LINK, and your aerial should be a horizontally mounted band 5 only for both analogue and digital.

Edited by i hate tv, 12 October 2007 - 09:30 AM.

[dajodan]

[quote name='i hate tv' date='Oct 12 2007, 09:23 AM' post='806796']
Also just noticed that your transmitter for Hervey bay shows as GHOST HILL in page 4 of AlanH's posting [url="http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=3924"]LINK[/url], and your aerial should be a horizontally mounted band 5 only for both analogue and digital.
Thanks ''i hate tv", but I am not sure about Ghost Hill being the best for us.  We live out of town a bit at Dundowran.  We had an antenna guy look at our set up some time ago and he recommended pointing towards mt goonanaman rather than ghost hill.  We do seem to get the better reception pointing towards mt goonanaman.

[xtractdigit]

Well I can tell you all, sc10 is the only station that drops out on all my digi boxes,sonyx46  ,sammy pvr,dvico nano on pc and   dvx pvr , its actually the best for 10 , go figure. Should we send a petition.

Edited by xtractdigit, 15 October 2007 - 11:24 PM.

[alanh]

xtradigit,
It sounds like an antenna system problem
Please read the first post in this strand and look at the Qld link.

State where you are, and use the above post to help you describe your installation

AlanH

[cracky]

G'day all

antenna installer in the twmba/bris area and i know all about the problems with digital tv but i did an install yesterday that was quite unique! Ichecked signal quality at mast and installed a band 5 UHF antenna towards Mt Lofty and used a masthead amplifier to increase signal to run the 3 outlets in home. Checked signal at outlet and was very good, actually better than on roof which often happens when a masthead is used and tuned in the channels. Brilliant!!!!! 2 doors down started up their lawn mower and it caused serious pixelation almost to dropout! I understand when a signal is not healthy enough that this is a regular problem but to see it happen to a really good signal is quite frightening! Could the mower be emitting a fault or frequency clash ? just wondering if anyone else has had this happen before?????

[DrP]

Electrically noisey engines and low signal level in the area is a sure fire way to get problems.  The signal level directly off the antenna (no amp, no long leads) would be interesting to know.

[cracky]

DrP, on Apr 4 2008, 01:11 PM, said:

Electrically noisey engines and low signal level in the area is a sure fire way to get problems.  The signal level directly off the antenna (no amp, no long leads) would be interesting to know.

The signal levels for the 5 channels ranged from about 38db to 43db and the ber was about 10-5 at worst and s/n ratio was fine no hint of any problems ( have done quite a few installs but by no means know everything but just trying to find yet another solution to ever increasing signal issues) If there happens to be no answers to problems like mowers and electric fences do people just have to settle for what they get (after spending hours trying to resolve but sometimes no luck ) How can this so called technology be better than anologue ?

[DrP]

cracky, on Apr 6 2008, 10:53 AM, said:

The signal levels for the 5 channels ranged from about 38db to 43db and the ber was about 10-5 at worst and s/n ratio was fine no hint of any problems

Might be a bit on the low side, so when a strong local signal (such as a noisy mower) comes along it swamps the desired signal.  A good SNR ratio can still be had even with lowish signal levels providing the local background noise is also low.  I'm sure that one of the professional installers that lurk on the forum will wander over this thread eventaully and make a few meaningful comments.

Speaking from experience of my own installation, even a fairly heavy duty lightning storm doesn't up set it that much.  Someone mowing the lawn makes no noticeable difference - and I have plenty of trees to knock the signal level around.  

[alanh]

cracky,
The basic principles are;
Only use antennas designed for the channel range in use
Use a filter either prior to or within a masthead amplifier to increase the signal level down the cable. Use as much gain as possible without overload.
Use Quad shielded cable with F connectors
Attenuate the signal at the receiver if the signal is too strong.
See "Get the best reception" post at the start of this strand. Particularly look at the Qld link and the "Antenna basics" link


AlanH

[cracky]

alanh, on Apr 6 2008, 07:01 PM, said:

cracky,
The basic principles are;
Only use antennas designed for the channel range in use
Use a filter either prior to or within a masthead amplifier to increase the signal level down the cable. Use as much gain as possible without overload.
Use Quad shielded cable with F connectors
Attenuate the signal at the receiver if the signal is too strong.
See "Get the best reception" post at the start of this strand. Particularly look at the Qld link and the "Antenna basics" link


AlanH

     AlanH,
I understand the principals alanH i've been installing systems for as long as digital has been available  (learning the entire time ) and i can tick all the boxes to your suggestions which i totally appreciate thankyou. I often do installs where you have a lower signal level than this one (much lower) and it still works fine! When you mentioned filter i got wondering what type of filter or whether there is something to stop such an interference ? The amps already have a fm trap in them but perhaps there is something else available to solve issues like this ?

   cracky

[alanh]

Cracky,
If you only want UHF channels then there are masthead amplifiers which contain filters for either channel 28 - 69 (UHF) or from channel 36 - 69 (band 5)
If you want VHF you need a filter for channels 6 - 12 only.

They are listed with links in the Antenna basics strand.

AlanH

[woofa159]

Does anyone have any idea when Southern Cross is going to start showing Ten HD, if at all? It is frustrating because they are showing programs such as NASCAR that we can't watch on Austar anymore.

quote name='alanh' date='Feb 2 2005, 09:48 PM' post='148242']
All,
Follow the sequence below to determine what you need to do. This applies to new and existing installations, in which pixellates (picture breaks up into blocks) and the sound chirps)

1. Determine the most appropriate transmitter site
Most regions have a main transmitter and some translators. A translator converts the signal from one channel to another to prevent interference. They are of lower power than the main transmitter for the region. Translators are used to fill in a shadow area caused by the local terrain.
Click on [size=5][url="http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=54441"]Qld[/url][/size] to find you likely transmitter site(s)

Open on another screen [size=5][url="http://abc.net.au/reception/freq/"]ABC Transmitter List[/url][/size] and select the state and your DTV transmitter. If present this will give you a coverage area map to determine which site is best for you.

If an antenna technician can provide evidence that there are no signals at your site, you can get the ABC, SBS, two commercial stations and some radio channels directly from a satellite. Go to the end of this post.

2. Determine the actual TV channels you wish to receive
Logical Channel Numbers are displayed on digital receivers. They are labels because for example the ABC in capital cities is transmitted on channel 2 analog but on channel 12 in digital. The receiver will display channel 2# because it is sent the channel number in the signal. The actual channel used is displayed in the installation menu and must be known to select suitable antenna equipment.
Using the spreadsheet above the present and future analog and digital transmitters are shown. The ones on air are in bold.

Note also if the digital channel number(s) are in blue. If so they are part of a Single Frequency Network (SFN). SFNs use the same channels for repeaters in the same viewing area. This will affect antenna selection.

3. Determine the polarisation
Using different polarisations allows transmitters on the same channel to be located closer together in distance.
The transmitter and receiving antenna must be parallel to each other so if the transmitting antenna is parallel to the ground so must your antenna. This is called horizontal polarisation. The other way to have it is vertical. Some sites use vertical for channels below channel 27 (VHF) and Horizontal above (UHF)
If the same polarisation is used for all channels it is unipolar H or V. If different polarisations are used it is called cross polarisation and there is a yes in the spreadsheet.

4. Select the antenna type
Unipolar
[url="http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=35042"] Band 3[/url]
[url="http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=35043"]Band 4[/url]
[url="http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=35044"]Band 4+[/url]
[url="http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=35045"] Band 5[/url]
[url="http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=35046"] Band 3 & 4[/url]
[url="http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=35047"] Band 3 & 4+ [/url]
[url="http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=35048"] Band 3 & 5[/url]
[url="http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=35049"] Band 4 & 5[/url]
Cross polarised
[url="http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=35050"] Band 3 & 4+[/url]
[url="http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=35050"] Band 3 & 4+[/url]
[url="http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=35051"] Band 3 & 5[/url]
[url="http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=35052"] Band 3, 4 – 5[/url]
[url="http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=35053"] Caravans/Marine[/url]
Band 3, 4 - 5

[url="http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=32846"]Indoor Antennas[/url]

Digital TV will never use channels 0 – 5A. This is due to the problem of impulse noise from electrical switching and arcing. You can minimise this problem if you antenna is not designed for these channels. Channel 0 – 5A antennas are very wide and are more liable to get bird and wind damage as well.

The best antenna is one designed for the TV channels to be received in your area. This is because all of the metal work will get used. This gives greater sensitivity to the channels you want and less to the unwanted ones.

All analog channels within the antenna channel range will be receivable. To replace a single analog channel which is not receivable, read the following post
[url="http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=33998"]Using Digital Antennas in an Analog Environment[/url]

Cabling
It should be quad shielded RG6 with F connectors at any joins.
This is to minimise the pick up of electrical switching and TV signals other than picked up by the antenna.

[url="http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=35056"]Masthead amplifiers[/url] Should only be considered if the measured digital signals show there is too little signal. If that is not an option try the above techniques first.

Recognising interference
[url="http://www.acma.gov.au/ACMAINTERWR/_assets/main/LIB100342/BTR_HANDBOOK.PDF"]Better Television & Radio Reception[/url]
If you are within 6 km of the guyed lattice towers at Emerald or Brandon. Please report his on this strand for further advice.

[size=4]Please note this is general information. Use an antenna installer who can measure and error rates of digital signals (They should be able to give you Bit Error Rates (BER) figures of less than 1 in 10 000.) If they cannot do this, get someone else.[/size]

Apartments and retirement villages use Master Antenna TV systems (MATV)
These systems contain amplifiers for individual channels. In any non-digital installations you will generally find some digital channels are not receivable due to this filtering. Please read [url="http://www.dba.org.au/index.asp?sectionID=26"]Apartment & Town Houses[/url]


Radio – FM, DAB and DRM
FM
None of the antennas listed above are designed to receive FM radio. The best way is to have an independent system Please read [url="http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=21683"]FM Antennas[/url]
DAB is digital radio. It will start on 1st January 2009 in major population centres. It will use band 3 most likely vertically polarised.

DRM is another type of digital radio which will replace AM radio and will not use any of the above equipment.

More Information
For TV [url="http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=12098"]Antenna Basics +[/url]
For Radio [url="http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showforum=76"]Thread[/url]

Please post any queries in this geographic viewer's forum


Qld
If an antenna technician can prove no TV signals are available, then a free to air satellite receiver is an option.
Stations available
ABC:  Satellite programs generated in Brisbane
SBS: BS: National programs ex Sydney
Impaja: (Nine & TEN networks) from Alice Springs
Seven Central:(Sev en network) from Townsville

The programs are transmitted through the satellite in digital form, but in some towns are then retransmitted in analog. A home satellite receiver will receive the signal in digital, however there is none of the enhancements such as multi channel, wide screen etc.

Radio is also carried digitally, 4ABC Radio Regional ex Brisbane, 4ABC Radio National ex Brisbane, and commercials 4BRZ (Breeze), and 4RBL (Rebel FM) ex Beaudesert These signals are retransmitted in some towns on FM.

To obtain reception read the following link
[url="http://www.acma.gov.au/ACMAINTER.1900860:STANDARD:834878027:pc=PC_90075"]Out of area  reception[/url]

AlanH

Please post any queries in this geographic viewer's forum
[/quote]

[rudebutt1]

hi all ,
the more i read on here the more i get confused ... especially about all the the antenna types , band widths , etc !!

and apologies if am posting in the wrong section but am new to the forums and also new to digital reception in the country!! lol!!

i have just moved to Cooloola Cove , Qld , 4580 (think my transmission is from mt. Goonamenan)  and am interested to get the best digital reception that i can (not analogue)
currently i get real good digital reception on SBS ,
Seven and 10 is recognised by my samsung lcd tv but i never get a signal
whereas ABC or Win dont even get registered by my tv/box!!
so i need a new antenna or two ?
a neighbour of mine told me i'll most likely need a x2 antenna set up : x1 for uhf and x1 for vhf (but can reuse my current amp as its fairly new)
can anyone advise me what band etc antennas i should look for?
thanx

Edited by rudebutt1, 19 April 2008 - 07:34 PM.

[alanh]

rudebutt1,
If you had looked at the Qld link you would find that there are translators at Broadcast/Comms Site Reservoir COOLOOLA VILLAGE. There are no digital transmitters on this site at present.

Before I can answer, you need to identify the type of antennas your neighbour has. To identify your antenna type look at all 4 pages of Scaled drawing including dimensions on page 1

AlanH

[rudebutt1]

alanh, on Apr 19 2008, 10:56 PM, said:

rudebutt1,
If you had looked at the Qld link you would find that there are translators at Broadcast/Comms Site Reservoir COOLOOLA VILLAGE. There are no digital transmitters on this site at present.

Before I can answer, you need to identify the type of antennas your neighbour has. To identify your antenna type look at all 4 pages of Scaled drawing including dimensions on page 1

AlanH

alanH,
thanks for your response  
i know about the Cooloola translator and know its analogue only ... hence my quest to get digital reception from mt.Goonaneman - many in Tin Can Bay and Cooloola get digital from there ...
had a look at the pdf pages you suggested
but being complete newbie to antennas i'll refer to the Hills Antennas website

#my current antenna that i want to replace (v. good SBS digital reception) looks like the Hills Seeker cross polar UV13/mast amp

looking around the region what i see most of are the following x2 antenna combinations :

#VHF phased array vertical - many have just 8 elements , others have 16 elements
#UHF look like the Superfringe Xtra SFX
                           or Trumatch Xtra TMX
                           and a few Phased array (hunter)
hope this makes sense ...
what should i be aiming for here?

[alanh]

rudebutt1,
Now I see why there is a translator
You are 106 km @ a bearing of 304 ° from Mt. Goonameman and 91 km @ 184 ° from Bald Knob. However Mt Goonamemam is much more powerful.

Is there any mountain ranges or large hills in the way?

Whilst the Hills Seeka would normally have been a choice, I do not think it is sensitive enough.

I would probably go for a Hills DY14 mounted on its side and a Hills Ultramax mounted for horizontal polarisation.
Connect the antennas together using Band 3 - UHF diplexer
If necessary you can add a wideband masthead amplfier. More on that later if required.

Use Quad shielded RG6 cable with F connectors. Use a similar height above the roof as the others.

AlanH

[rudebutt1]

alanh, on Apr 20 2008, 11:21 PM, said:

rudebutt1,
Now I see why there is a translator
You are 106 km @ a bearing of 304 ° from Mt. Goonameman and 91 km @ 184 ° from Bald Knob. However Mt Goonamemam is much more powerful.

Is there any mountain ranges or large hills in the way?

Whilst the Hills Seeka would normally have been a choice, I do not think it is sensitive enough.

I would probably go for a Hills DY14 mounted on its side and a Hills Ultramax mounted for horizontal polarisation.
Connect the antennas together using Band 3 - UHF diplexer
If necessary you can add a wideband masthead amplfier. More on that later if required.

Use Quad shielded RG6 cable with F connectors. Use a similar height above the roof as the others.

AlanH

THANK YOU ALAN!!
at least now i have a starting point , better idea of what to do ...

wasnt expecting the Hills Seeka to work , presume it was installed by prevoius owner for analogue?

anyway ,
Bald Knob even Gympie or anywhere east or south/east of Cooloola is ringed by a big range , toolara forest and lots of hills!! so thats out of the picture?
Theres much better line of sight to Mt Goonaneman although with some undulating hills ... but most 'digital' antennas around these parts are pointing that way.
will definitely be using similar height (or heigher?) as i need a new,stronger and longer mast anyway.
so is the Hills product ok? or have you any other recommendations? (in previous post was using the Hills website and antennas as a point of photo reference)
once again , Alan , thank you !!