26 replies to this topic

[suede]

yes i know not everyone wants or likes the current dvd recorders but they do suit some peoples needs!!

anyhow i am looking at getting one of the 160 gb hdd models and am wondering how long before you think we will see the price dip below the magical 1000 dollar mark. 1400-1500 dollars is just a joke of a price considering what you get.

salespeople i have spoken to  say it will be a while.
any opinions or guesses?

[steveo]

suede, on Jan 18 2005, 08:55 AM, said:

yes i know not everyone wants or likes the current dvd recorders but they do suit some peoples needs!!

anyhow i am looking at getting one of the 160 gb hdd models and am wondering how long before you think we will see the price dip below the magical 1000 dollar mark. 1400-1500 dollars is just a joke of a price considering what you get.

salespeople i have spoken to  say it will be a while.
any opinions or guesses?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I paid $999 for a DVD player in the mid nineties.  Withing three years they were less than half that price and now are less than $100.

SteveO

[tvaddict]

You can't wait years for the price to come down with these analog devices - you only have until 2008 to use them any way. So lets break it down for fun:

buy in Jan 2005 for $1500 - Four years use - $375 per year.
buy in Jan 2006 for $1000 - Three years use - $333 per year.
buy in Jan 2007 for $500 - Two years use - $250 per year.
buy in Jan 2008 - they’re giving them away - free use for the rest of the year.

If you want/need to get one of these devices, I would get the best deal as soon as possible and start enjoying it.

[suede]

when you break it down like that i say bring on 2008

[RLR]

steveo, on Jan 18 2005, 11:13 AM, said:

I paid $999 for a DVD player in the mid nineties.  Withing three years they were less than half that price and now are less than $100.

SteveO

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I paid a lot more that that for my first CD player (and money was worth more then as well!)
I'm picking that you will be able to buy no name hard drive DVD recorders for around $500 within 6 months. I've already seen no hard drive ones for $399.00.

[RLR]

tvaddict, on Jan 18 2005, 12:07 PM, said:

You can't wait years for the price to come down with these analog devices - you only have until 2008 to use them any way. So lets break it down for fun:

buy in Jan 2005 for $1500 - Four years use - $375 per year.
buy in Jan 2006 for $1000 - Three years use - $333 per year.
buy in Jan 2007 for $500 - Two years use - $250 per year.
buy in Jan 2008 - they’re giving them away - free use for the rest of the year.

If you want/need to get one of these devices, I would get the best deal as soon as possible and start enjoying it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The theory is fine but you have forgotten to add in the cost of all the programs / movies /  docos that you will need to buy between now and say 2007 because you don't have a recorder.

[steveo]

RLR, on Jan 19 2005, 05:25 PM, said:

steveo, on Jan 18 2005, 11:13 AM, said:

I paid $999 for a DVD player in the mid nineties.  Withing three years they were less than half that price and now are less than $100.

SteveO

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I paid a lot more that that for my first CD player (and money was worth more then as well!)
I'm picking that you will be able to buy no name hard drive DVD recorders for around $500 within 6 months. I've already seen no hard drive ones for $399.00.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

$399?? I bought a no name DVD recorder in the post Xmas sales for $295 and it had component in as well.  Figured it would tide me over until the prices for HD PVRs became reasonable.

SteveO

[orac]

tvaddict, on Jan 18 2005, 12:07 PM, said:

You can't wait years for the price to come down with these analog devices - you only have until 2008 to use them any way. So lets break it down for fun:

buy in Jan 2005 for $1500 - Four years use - $375 per year.
buy in Jan 2006 for $1000 - Three years use - $333 per year.
buy in Jan 2007 for $500 - Two years use - $250 per year.
buy in Jan 2008 - they’re giving them away - free use for the rest of the year.

If you want/need to get one of these devices, I would get the best deal as soon as possible and start enjoying it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why can't one use the DVD recorder in say 2010 by connecting a Digital STB to it and recording that signal ?

-orac

[steveo]

orac, on Jan 19 2005, 07:49 PM, said:

tvaddict, on Jan 18 2005, 12:07 PM, said:

You can't wait years for the price to come down with these analog devices - you only have until 2008 to use them any way. So lets break it down for fun:

buy in Jan 2005 for $1500 - Four years use - $375 per year.
buy in Jan 2006 for $1000 - Three years use - $333 per year.
buy in Jan 2007 for $500 - Two years use - $250 per year.
buy in Jan 2008 - they’re giving them away - free use for the rest of the year.

If you want/need to get one of these devices, I would get the best deal as soon as possible and start enjoying it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why can't one use the DVD recorder in say 2010 by connecting a Digital STB to it and recording that signal ?

-orac

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You would need the DVD recorder technology to advance to allow them to record 576P or 1080i without being blocked by the copyright protection measures that are already starting to rear their ugly heads.

SteveO

[RLR]

steveo, on Jan 19 2005, 07:49 PM, said:

$399?? I bought a no name DVD recorder in the post Xmas sales for $295 and it had component in as well.  Figured it would tide me over until the prices for HD PVRs became reasonable.

SteveO

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't frequent the post Christmas sales as a rule but I guess your price proves my point.

[steveo]

I think it is generally accepted that there are two issues here.

First is recording programmes to watch at a later time/date.  PVRs will provide that functionality in either SD or HD but will probably include technologie sto prevent you recording to other media.

The second is recording programmes on other media.  This will definitely have technology to prevent recording in HD.

The thing is whether some manufacturers will circumvent these measures or whether hacks similar as macrovision hacks will allow users to circumvent the measures.

While current copyright protection legislation makes provision of technologies to circumvent copyright protection measures illegal, it will be interesting to see if the FTA with the US makes possession of such technology illegal.

SteveO

[Stephen65]

Quote

You can't wait years for the price to come down with these analog devices - you only have until 2008 to use them any way. So lets break it down for fun:

buy in Jan 2005 for $1500 - Four years use - $375 per year.
buy in Jan 2006 for $1000 - Three years use - $333 per year.
buy in Jan 2007 for $500 - Two years use - $250 per year.
buy in Jan 2008 - they’re giving them away - free use for the rest of the year.

If you want/need to get one of these devices, I would get the best deal as soon as possible and start enjoying it.

The big advantage DVD recorders have over units like the Toppy is that they can record external inputs.  

In 2008 analogue broadcasts stop so if you want to keep watching TV at all you'll need to buy a digital STB.  Since SD units are currrently $150 I'll bet that by 2008 they are going to be around $50.

You then plug that SD STB's output into your DVD recorder and keep happily recording.  Of course if like many people who buy a DVD recorder you've already got a digital STB, you don't need to wait till 2008 to plug it in.

[fossil]

thats true Stephen...but folks need to be aware that many copyright situations will occur...Recording to the HDD will be possible but burning movies and some programs with the built in DVD burner will not be allowed and in fact that problem is happening allready...as we know...

New models of PVR's will have the ability to record analogue input as well as its STB input...but always at a cost...both money wise and combined feature wise...IE...when recording analogue...STB recording  will be reduced  by 1 tuner and HDD space will be used...
I still feel strongly that  the best results will be obtained by having 2 separate units...IE..a Twin tuner PVR such as the Toppy of course, and an HDD recorder....with or without a burner..
.I have a stand alone burner easily accessed...but it is turned off and will remain so....It cost $3000... 4 years ago...lol...I also have a stand alone HDD recorder that remains turned off

foss

[bernng]

I'm overseas in Malaysia now. The prices of HDD DVD recorders are unbelievably cheap due to our strong currency.

Here are the prices in AUD (approx):

Pioneer 520H - $880
Pioneer 720H - $1080
Sony 900X - $1100
Phillips (can't remember model) - $999
Toshiba (can't remember model) - $1100

They come with 1 year's International Warranty, and optional 4 years additional warranty for an extra $60 (applies to Msia/Spore only).

Gosh, this country is a heaven if my pocket never dries up.....!! ;p

[Erasmus]

Stephen65, on Jan 19 2005, 10:14 PM, said:

The big advantage DVD recorders have over units like the Toppy is that they can record external inputs. 

In 2008 analogue broadcasts stop so if you want to keep watching TV at all you'll need to buy a digital STB.  Since SD units are currrently $150 I'll bet that by 2008 they are going to be around $50.

You then plug that SD STB's output into your DVD recorder and keep happily recording.  Of course if like many people who buy a DVD recorder you've already got a digital STB, you don't need to wait till 2008 to plug it in.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Copyright protection aside, a drawback with recording from your STB output rather than using internal tuners in the DVD recorder is that you have to record what is output from the STB at the time.  This means you can't program your dvd recorder to do multiple future recordings or even switch channels while recording.  A twin tuner STB which is programmable might get around this, but it is a messy solution. Thats why we will need DVD or similar external recorders with built in digital tuners by 2008!

[Donald]

CoNFooZeD, on Jan 20 2005, 12:20 PM, said:

[Copyright protection aside, a drawback with recording from your STB output rather than using internal tuners in the DVD recorder is that you have to record what is output from the STB at the time.  This means you can't program your dvd recorder to do multiple future recordings or even switch channels while recording.  A twin tuner STB which is programmable might get around this, but it is a messy solution. Thats why we will need DVD or similar external recorders with built in digital tuners by 2008!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You can switch channels for future recordings - my Strong 5200 has a timer function where you can set it to come on to various channels at various times.  All you have to do then is set your DVD/HDD recorder to just record the STB output at those times.

A little more complex than setting the Toppy, but it can be done.

[fossil]

CFZ...we will probably never see  box with a digital tuner and a HDD and a DVD burner in the same box ...thats the first problem..then...

If there is ever  a DVD burner ( without a HDD) and a digital tuner in the same box in Australia, I would be very surprised...and what you would be allowed to burn to disk would be minimal...

If you think about it, it would be a direct licence to burn movies and programs to DVD in the same box ...At the moment, it is still easily done...but not as blatant as burning a movie direct from the digital STB to a DVD in the same box..

foss...

CoNFooZeD, on Jan 20 2005, 12:20 PM, said:

Stephen65, on Jan 19 2005, 10:14 PM, said:

The big advantage DVD recorders have over units like the Toppy is that they can record external inputs. 


In 2008 analogue broadcasts stop so if you want to keep watching TV at all you'll need to buy a digital STB.  Since SD units are currrently $150 I'll bet that by 2008 they are going to be around $50.

You then plug that SD STB's output into your DVD recorder and keep happily recording.  Of course if like many people who buy a DVD recorder you've already got a digital STB, you don't need to wait till 2008 to plug it in.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Copyright protection aside, a drawback with recording from your STB output rather than using internal tuners in the DVD recorder is that you have to record what is output from the STB at the time.  This means you can't program your dvd recorder to do multiple future recordings or even switch channels while recording.  A twin tuner STB which is programmable might get around this, but it is a messy solution. Thats why we will need DVD or similar external recorders with built in digital tuners by 2008!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Erasmus]

fossil, on Jan 20 2005, 12:15 PM, said:

CFZ...we will probably never see  box with a digital tuner and a HDD and a DVD burner in the same box ...thats the first problem..then...

If there is ever  a DVD burner ( without a HDD) and a digital tuner in the same box in Australia, I would be very surprised...and what you would be allowed to burn to disk would be minimal...

If you think about it, it would be a direct licence to burn movies and programs to DVD in the same box ...At the moment, it is still easily done...but not as blatant as burning a movie direct from the digital STB to a DVD in the same box..

foss...

You might be right foss that we won't see one of these boxes due to the current copyright laws and the partnerships between movie companies and hardware manfacturers.

[begin rant]

You could argue that a VCR is a direct license to burn movies and programs in the same box, the only difference is that the quality is worse.  The VCR with all its flaws has been one of the most successful technologies around, with practically every house having one.  They are easy to program and people like to be able to record to external media.  When 2008 clicks over unless something changes there are going to be a lot of unhapy mums and dads when they find out recording their movies to external media has become a lot more difficult.

I am of the view that we should be able to record and store FTA TV for self use within reason.  The copyright laws at the moment are broken by most people on a daily basis and we should be changing the laws, not crippling the technology.   Even I-pods have no legal use in Australia at the moment.

[/end rant]

[fossil]

Trouble is CFZ, that the quality obtainable by burning Movies to a DVD direct from the STB or via the PC is equal in quality to a DVD you would purchase  or hire from the Video store...and they are just not going to let that happen easily....Give folks an inch and they will take a mile...there would be no way to police it at all and they feel its best not to allow it in the 1st place...
Analogue via a VCR is not going to worry them...but DVDs at digital STB quality will...
Best just to get used to the idea and accept it and think about the problem from another direction...where there is a will, there is a way...I have been told
foss

[Neon Kitten]

Donald, on Jan 20 2005, 12:36 PM, said:

You can switch channels for future recordings - my Strong 5200 has a timer function where you can set it to come on to various channels at various times. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nice, isn't it? What a shame it doesn't actually work!

The timer on the Strong 5200 is not something you want to rely on to change channels and catch all the shows you want to record.

[Stephen65]

Quote

thats true Stephen...but folks need to be aware that many copyright situations will occur...Recording to the HDD will be possible but burning movies and some programs with the built in DVD burner will not be allowed and in fact that problem is happening allready...as we know...

At the moment the only programs that have any restriction on copying are the Foxtel pay per view movies and events.
  
You can't copy those to either the HD or onto a DVD, at least not using my Pana E85H.  So that's the extent of the problem so far as I am aware.  It still leaves me able to make extremely good copies of 98% of what I watch.

As for what may happen in the future with respect to copyright, who can say?

[steveo]

What's the bet that we see a revival of the old audio tape argument.  Put a surcharge on the recording media to be paid to the rights associations.

SteveO

[fossil]

Yes Stephen...it's the unknown and also what people don't know that is the problem...
I have been advising people not to upgrade their FW if all is working well on their DVD burners,  because most Hardwares, including the Toppy's hardware chip(even though the Toppy obviously does not contain a burner) can be made copyright active by turning on a software switch and has this already happened to some members here who own LG and Panasonic DVD burners...
Many members have reported not being able to record FTA movies on DVD burners...More and more DVD burners will become involved as time passes...
I can't see the problem ever worrying the Toppy, because the Toppy does not, nor ever will contain a burner...and of course thats how the Toppy works...records data on a HDD for viewing later...but not burning ever
so ...my advice for what it's worth is not to change the FW on your DVD burner and if you have a burner that works...don't change it...
One members LG went back for repairs...and come back with FW that would not allow recording of SD movies!!!there are several threads on this with me going on about it as well....lol
Who knows what is around the corner...but I can say it will be worse than it is now with regard to freedom.
foss

[RLR]

fossil, on Jan 20 2005, 04:23 PM, said:

More and more DVD burners will become involved as time passes...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think that should read "more and more name brand" or "more and more Japanese".
As long as the Chinese continue to thumb their collective noses at international copyright requirements there will always be "no name" products that will be able to do what people are talking about and as long as the "no name" products are on the market the "name" products will have to compete with them. Usually they do this by also having a "no name" brand that does not appear to be associated with them. Remember that these manufacturers are business people, they make their money by selling the products that the consumer wants not by ahering to the restrictive trade practices of the US media organisations.

[RLR]

fossil, on Jan 20 2005, 04:23 PM, said:

I can't see the problem ever worrying the Toppy, because the Toppy does not, nor ever will contain a burner...and of course thats how the Toppy works...records data on a HDD for viewing later...but not burning ever

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess that using your argument we can expect to see the end of the USB port at some stage on the Toppy or at least a USB port that is somehow crippled so that it can only accept firmware or TAPs but not dish up .REC files.
Scary thought that!