16 replies to this topic

[Mr C]

I am prepared to pay more for purchasing 24 bit 96 kHz FLAC download files. I have all the necessary equipment for this, just having purchased a good quality digital music streamer - the Cyrus Streamline2 which is capable of playing 24 bit 192 kHz FLAC downloads. Currently I am enjoying listening to Internet radio stations through my system. Even at reasonably low bit rates at 96 Kbps the sound is amazingly good through my system since I feed the output of the Streamline2 to my NuForce preamp and then using the Elektra amp.

However, when I have browsed some high resolution music sites, the website says that they cannot allow a download to "your country". An example is the HDTracks website, which appears to have the most of the mainstream content that I am interested in. The Linn site has mostly classic opera type music, which while I might enjoy some of this, what I really want is the ITunes type content but available in 24 bit 96 kHz files.

Does anyone know where I can purchase mainstream type high resolution music from my Australian home residence ?

[ccs]

You can use HDTracks with a friend's USA address and pay with PayPal. It is by far the largest store and they do offers every few months like now with 10% off. Just subscribe to their newsletter.

If you are into classical, try also eclassical.com 2L is another with good recordings but obscure artists. However, HDTracks also has 2L and cheaper.

A word of warning. 24 bit is better in theory but a lot depends on the mastering. Be aware of re mastered ones because some are not much better than CDs..

[MLXXX]

Mr C, many of us have pursued 96kHz 24 bit material assuming it will sound better than 44.1kHz 16 bit material.

96/24 is a typical studio format for capturing, editing, and mixing, and for special effects using Digital Signal Processing. However there is no evidence I am aware of that in blind tests human beings can demonstrate an ability to distinguish between a stereo 96/24 master and a corresponding 44/16 CD, at usual recording and playback levels. [44/16 will have dither noise if you listen to a quiet section with extremely high gain, and the recording source had very low noise.]

So I fear that although you will no doubt lay your hands on high resolution format material you may find it sounds no better than a lower resolution version of the same material.

[myrantz]

I'ved downloaded something from Linn before.. They're pretty ok. http://www.linnrecor...-downloads.aspx

Other sites includes 2L, lessloss (free I think) and B&W. The B&W music site isn't high res I think.

HDTracks - get Nirvirna Nevermind.. I doubt it's real 24bit, and probably mastered loud. But by gawd it's fun when you turn up the volume .

[ccs]

I did my own ABX testing of 96/24 versus 44/16 and could tell the difference some of the time.  As far as possible, used the same material and allowed for replay gain (so that the music has the same loudness) using Foobar and their ABX tool. Did 10 samples with 10 to 15 seconds clips and able to pick 7,8 out of 10. I did fail with some samples. The mastering of 96/24 material is critical, with extra detail being the factor that allowed to me to pick the difference.. My ears are not the best, and certainly not "golden ears", not musically trained and I failed Karaoke (they had to take the mic away!)

Had some interesting unexpected results.  While I like the 96/24 Eagles Hotel California and luke warm on Fleetwood Mac's Rumours, I was more successful in picking the difference in Rumours than Hotel California!

The end result of this testing is I am more circumspect in acquiring 96/24 material, especially remastered ones.  There are certainly good material where I can consistently pick the difference (Diana Krall's albums) and there are lots of so, so material out there.  At the end of the day, I continue to enjoy the material I have (lots of 44/16 ripped from CDs, plus some 96/24 material).

[:)]

Mr c keep in mind like cvs has hinted a lot of these supposed hi res downloads aren't actually hi res. if do some research you'll see that often some of these places are just uploading standard res stuff up sampled.

If looking for some genuine hi-res audio as pointed out 2L and specifically naim audio are excellent. There is even free stuff to down load. Just google their websites

[Mr C]

:), on 24 May 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

Mr c keep in mind like cvs has hinted a lot of these supposed hi res downloads aren't actually hi res. if do some research you'll see that often some of these places are just uploading standard res stuff up sampled.

If looking for some genuine hi-res audio as pointed out 2L and specifically naim audio are excellent. There is even free stuff to down load. Just google their websites

Thanks guys for your feedback ... I am fully aware that the mastering process and its quality is very important.  For example there is no point converting a home audio tape recorded with a home held microphone to 24/192 since the source quality is not there.  I can see that there are a lot of sites out there for 'material other than mainstream music' - hope I don't offend people by the use of that phrase.  I am one who has a good ear and I can tell you that I have heard 96/24 material and it is clearly superior to the average CD quality you get.  So it seems like people are saying that there isn't an obvious site for 'mainstream music' ?!?

[myrantz]

Mr C, on 24 May 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

So it seems like people are saying that there isn't an obvious site for 'mainstream music' ?!?

Yeah.. My main beef with HD music is they're too "classy"!!

HDTracks is about as mainstream as you'd get AFAIK...

[ccs]

2L definitely has good recordings and free samples are here. Try Ola Gjeilo: North Country II (myrantz : "classy" piano!!) and Groven: Undring by Sigmund Groven, harmonica and Iver Kleive, organ, unusual pairing with organ testing your speaker's lower registers. I have both albums.

Also good are recordings by Diana Krall on HDTracks.  That is one classy lady (but how did she end up with Elvis Costello??).  Partially explains why myrantz has tarred HDTracks

myrantz, on 24 May 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

Yeah.. My main beef with HD music is they're too "classy"!!

[Dr X]

myrantz, on 24 May 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

HDTracks - get Nirvirna Nevermind.. I doubt it's real 24bit, and probably mastered loud. But by gawd it's fun when you turn up the volume .

Info about this here: http://www.dr.loudne...album=Nevermind

[myrantz]

Dr X, on 24 May 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

Info about this here: http://www.dr.loudne...album=Nevermind

Good find.. As expected there really is something dodgy with that Nirvirna album.. But gawd is it fun... Need to find that 1991 edition somehow.

[MLXXX]

ccs, on 24 May 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

I did my own ABX testing of 96/24 versus 44/16 and could tell the difference some of the time.  As far as possible, used the same material and allowed for replay gain (so that the music has the same loudness) using Foobar and their ABX tool.

The Foobar ABX tool is an excellent aid. I note it would not have been necessary to use a replay gain adjustment if the 44/16 had been a direct conversion from the 96/24 without any "fiddling".

The recommended method (on HydrogenAudio) for an ABX in these circumstances is to do your own conversion from 96/24 to 44/16 and then resample the resulting file back up to 96/24. If you use an appropriate noise shaped dither for the conversion from 24 bits to 16 bits, the dither will only be audible at an unrealistically (and uncomfortably) high gain setting. The free software Audacity is probably sufficient to use for the resampling.

You then (at normal listening levels) ABX the original 96/24 against the version downsampled to 44/16 and then upsampled back to 96/24. You should find the twice resampled version indistinguishable from the original version.

If you are prepared to try this method I have described, and you do find a 96/24 version of music that does not sound the same after two stage resampling, please let us know!  

Cheers

[By converting back to 96/24 you sidestep any slight colouration or amplitude difference or other performance difference your sound system DAC might introduce when processing a 44/16 format source compared with processing a 96/24 format source.  You also automatically ensure your extracts of music are precisely time-aligned.]

Edited by MLXXX, Yesterday, 07:41 PM.

[:)]

Mr C, on 24 May 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

Thanks guys for your feedback ... I am fully aware that the mastering process and its quality is very important.  For example there is no point converting a home audio tape recorded with a home held microphone to 24/192 since the source quality is not there.  I can see that there are a lot of sites out there for 'material other than mainstream music' - hope I don't offend people by the use of that phrase.  I am one who has a good ear and I can tell you that I have heard 96/24 material and it is clearly superior to the average CD quality you get.  So it seems like people are saying that there isn't an obvious site for 'mainstream music' ?!?

by mainstream do you mean pop music. in case forget about it the mass bulk of pop music is pretty ordinary in original mixing, not much if any around in "hi-res" if you are finding much around it will most definitely be upsampled. and probably compressed in dynamics heavily to suit commercial radio.

probably re pop if wanting hi-res vinyl might be a better direction to turn towards

[MLXXX]

:), on 24 May 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

and probably compressed in dynamics heavily to suit commercial radio.

probably re pop if wanting hi-res vinyl might be a better direction to turn towards

It does seem unlikely the digital master prepared for a vinyl pressing of a modern pop recording would have the same extent of amplitude compression as that often used these days for CDs of pop music. The THD and IMD figures for vinyl become high at high amplitudes. The actual figures would depend on the state of the pressing, the state of the cartridge stylus, and the performance of the cartridge.  It would be asking for trouble to cut a vinyl record at a persistently high amplitude level.

[ccs]

MLXXX, on 24 May 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

The Foobar ABX tool is an excellent aid. I note it would not have been necessary to use a replay gain adjustment if the 44/16 had been a direct conversion from the 96/24 without any "fiddling".

The recommended method (on HydrogenAudio) for an ABX in these circumstances is to do your own conversion from 96/24 to 44/16 and then resample the resulting file back up to 96/24. If you use an appropriate noise shaped dither for the conversion from 24 bits to 16 bits, the dither will only be audible at an unrealistically (and uncomfortably) high gain setting. The free software Audacity is probably sufficient to use for the resampling.

You then (at normal listening levels) ABX the original 96/24 against the version downsampled to 44/16 and then upsampled back to 96/24. You should find the twice resampled version indistinguishable from the original version.

If you are prepared to try this method I have described, and you do find a 96/24 version of music that does not sound the same after two stage resampling, please let us know!  

Cheers

[By converting back to 96/24 you sidestep any slight colouration or amplitude difference or other performance difference your sound system DAC might introduce when processing a 44/16 format source compared with processing a 96/24 format source.  You also automatically ensure your extracts of music are precisely time-aligned.]

We could start a whole topic on this, and it could go on forever like Hydrogen Audio.  A problem with sampling from 96/24 to 44/16 in that 96 is not a multiple of 44.  Ideally should be comparing 88/24 material, down sampled to 44/16. And down sampling and up sampling can itself create problems. It could also be argued that ABX testing itself is not necessarily the definitive answer because listening to snippets in a detached manner is not the same as listening to music in its entirety because we connect emotionally to it.  The arguments have been raging back and forth for years, and likely forever. (And if anyone is interested, Google ABX audio for the lengthy debates).  Incidentally, this debate about Hi-res versus Redbook has its parallels with value of expensive interconnects, speaker cables, power chords etc etc..  

At the end of day, it is buyer beware.  More importantly, if you enjoy the music and and find value in hi-res, then so be it.  It is not for the skeptics to rage about it (thank goodness it does not happen here...)

[MLXXX]

ccs, on 24 May 2013 - 09:51 PM, said:

And down sampling and up sampling can itself create problems.

Yet despite any such problems, human listeners are failing to distinguish native 96/24 from a twice resampled version of the native 96/24.

If the ear cannot detect differences when concentrating on short A B comparisons, I suggest there is no difference worth pursuing.

ccs, on 24 May 2013 - 09:51 PM, said:

At the end of day, it is buyer beware.  More importantly, if you enjoy the music and and find value in hi-res, then so be it.  It is not for the skeptics to rage about it (thank goodness it does not happen here...)

Yes, on DTV Forum it is usually more about adherents waxing lyrical, than sceptics urging caution, or to use your term, "raging".

ccs, on 24 May 2013 - 09:51 PM, said:

power chords

I know you didn't mean this!:

In guitar music, a power chord (also fifth chord) is a chord that consists of the root note and the fifth interval. Power chords are played on amplified guitars, especially on electric guitar with distortion. Power chords are a key element of many styles of rock music.

[From: http://en.wikipedia....iki/Power_chord]

Edited by MLXXX, Yesterday, 10:50 PM.

[bassett]

ccs, on 24 May 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

Also good are recordings by Diana Krall on HDTracks.  That is one classy lady (but how did she end up with Elvis Costello??).

How do any of us end up with the partners  we have, or have had.  Love really is blind.

Speaking of Diana Krall her latest album  "Glad Rag Doll"  is one of the best, and I have a full set  14 CD's

This download will get you the MP3 version    http://kat.ph/diana-...2-t6696280.html