215 replies to this topic

[alanh]

Glenn,
I have worked in the TV broadcasting side for 25 years, and whilst only worked in Newcastle as a trainee many years ago some things do not change.

Beresfield is where the ACMA says the ABC transmitters are located. So if 10 kW transmitters do not give trouble when the TV transmitters are only 15 km away this makes life easy for you. This is definitely not the case where there is 50 kW transmitters and the TV transmitters are 30 km away. At this power level you can listen to ABC radio whilst having conversations on corded phones.

I am well aware that the limiting which occurs in FM receivers will remove AM interference unless it gets into the audio stages. I know someone who has a 5.1 sound system who has to listen to Radio National whenever the power is on to this amplifier.

The vestigial sideband of AM used in vision transmission cannot reject another AM signal if it is strong enough to intermodulate in either the tuner or rust in the antenna system. Hence the patterns in the Better TV & Radio book example of AM interference.

I had to respond to Les because he gave the impression that the AM transmitters are on Mt Sugarloaf when only the FM ones are.

I know of a car which stopped each time it passed the front gate of a 50 kW AM transmitter site. The mechanic was given a lesson in "earthing" and the rust was removed where the battery was connected to the chassis. At UHF and higher you are relying on the shielding by the car body including the bonnet. It may be wise to check the resistance between it and the negative terminal of the battery?!

I know that Ford has a 10 kW transmitter in a shielded room which is used to test EMI before cars are released onto the market.

To Black Mountain tower. Not only are there high powered UHF & VHF TV transmitters, FM transmitters it is also the connection point for microwave communications into Canberra. So there are many microwave transmitters a variety of frequencies to add to the mix.  All transmitter sites have RF radiation warning signs because it is hazardeous to humans to get overexposure.

So TV and radio transmitters work the same way in Newcastle as they do anywhere else. Other places have SFNs as well. The only real difference is that you have TV in 4 MHz of the FM band and are one of the few places using channel 5A for TV.

AlanH

[GlennP]

AlanH,

Thanks for that info, it explains a lot & again backs up my theory.

You say you've worked in the broadcasting side of TV for 25 years, maybe you should stay there & restrict your comments to what you know.
I've found in the past (with a few exceptions) that most broadcast engineers are very good at what they do, but as long as the signal leaves the broadcast antenna correctly, they are not interested in what happens to it after that or the difficulties antenna installers have to deal with to get a good or reliable reception.
They will call you & ask you to do some testing for them to help them fault find if there does seem to be a problem their end, but if everythings OK with them stiff, it's the comsumers/antenna installers problem.
Quite often a fault can occur at their end but go un-noticed & they can be notified by an antenna installer or consumer & unless it's major wont do anything about it until many complaints are received.
Also they don't take note & listen to installers/consumers about (potential) problems until/unless it directly effects them.
(Steveb, if your reading this I'm not having a dig at you).
Read the thread in the Newcastle forum about the Gan Gan translators for Port Stephens & you'll find NBN didn't stand up & take note until it bit them in the arse. By not discounting the problem after they were notified of it & a simple site survey at the planing stage could have avoided it & had design plans changed before commissioning stage.

Yes, Radio & TV transmitters work the same the world over, but local conditions effect the reception, & if you don't have the local knowledge of the problem how can you fix it?
Would you consider giving reception advice to front line antenna installers in America, England or somewhere in Europe?

What you're trying to do is like the University graduates with degrees in everything & can tell you word for word what's in the theory book & what should be happening, but when they get out into the real world have no practical experience & don't know where to start or when something happens that theoretically shouldn't (or vice versa) they have no idea what to do & you could get as much solved by getting a year 8 high school student & telling them to fix this.

In regards to your question about AM radio interference, both me & Les told you it wasn't an issue here, but you kept pushing it & kept telling us about broadcast sites we already know & have visited many times.
We can all read the ACMA registers, but I have proved many times that they are not totally correct, transmitters are not always where the registers say they are, yes the ABC AM broadcast site is on the register as being at Beresfield, but I'm telling you it's at Woodberry in the reserve over the road from Francis Greenway High School (Beresfield & Woodberry are neighbouring suburbs though).

In relation to my car, I'm not only an antenna installer but I'm a Electrical Technician & also install Telephone & Data networks (Hardware), & can assure you there is no rust under the chassis earthing point.

With regards to Black Mountain, yes all transmission sites have signs warning of the RF emitions danger, but they don't tell you they may effect your cars ignition & keyless entry systems like the ones at Black Mountain do. Also yes Black Mountain has many microwave transmissions but so does Mt Sugarloaf (check the ACMA registers) & if you add up all the output powers there is more (higher levels) of RF radiation coming off Mt Sugarloaf than Black Mountain.

I do know where you're coming from & what you are talking about, I want to make a career change to Broadcast Engineering & have done quite a bit of private study into how RF broadcasting works, I'm especially interested in AM broadcast Radio (I know it's old technology, but it works well & facinates me), so I sometimes make comments of the broadcasting side of things, but you don't seem to have the knowledge of the receiving side (especially in all the areas you comment on), so you can't & shouldn't really comment on what to do or what's best (theoretically, maybe but practically, no).
So it would be nice & more helpful if you just stick to letting us know how it works & let the antenna installers with local knowledge & many years experience dealing with & solving the reception problems give out the reception advice.

Cheers
Glenn.

[bangbang]

Quote

yes the ABC AM broadcast site is on the register as being at Beresfield, but I'm telling you it's at Woodberry in the reserve over the road from Francis Greenway High School (Beresfield & Woodberry are neighbouring suburbs though).

totally correct. It's around 300m inside the Woodberry area from memory.

Give me a local with knowledge any day.

[alanh]

All,
I have my answer, that AM interference is not a problem in Newcastle because the AM transmitters are not powerful enough and the Channel 3 signal is very strong in this area, 300 m is immaterial.

AlanH

[David Morrison]

I can't help thinking that the so called "local expert" antenna people are being anything but helpful in this and other forums. They are bagging alanh for attempting to provide some information, while providing little but abuse themselves. They would enhance their reputations and their business if they were seen to be helpful and contributing to what seems to be a really poorly understood and documented situation.

David

[alanh]

All,
The Beresford transmitters are only 22 kW they should try 100 kW!
The main TV transmitters are not very far way.

AlanH

[lesftv]

lesftv, on Apr 28 2006, 08:20 AM, said:

Alan,
I haven't seen AM interference on analog TVs for 25 years as caused by radio stations. It used to be a problem with mono and early colour TVs but not of recent times as far as I know. There are also 6 AM transmitters on Mt. Sugarloaf. There is an interelationship on some channels which can cause this type of patterning which you describe, but only on SC at Mt. Sugarloaf on Channel 57 (and it is an antenna installer's issue).
lesf

  

Just to chirp in again, Alan, the AM transmitters on Mt. Sugarloaf are the only ones I know that cause AM interference on a TV screen. However, it is only on one channel and the problem can be addressed by the diligent installation of the receive antenna at the client's residence.
Regards
lesf

[wahroonga farm]

lesftv, on Dec 1 2006, 07:58 AM, said:

...... by the diligent installation of the receive antenna ......

Hmm! Probably incredibly expensive to have 'lesfv' work the 'black arts' at your place.

I suspect David Morrison has offered the only 100% factual post to date

[alanh]

Les,
I did not notice your December post.
There is no AM transmitters on Mt Sugarloaf, only FM & TV. The top of a mountain is the worst place for an AM transmitter. They need good wet earth mats such as those in the Beresford area.

AlanH

[steveb]

Alanh

Its BERESFIELD and HEXHAM...

Glenn,
You know that Gan Gan is a government funded, and government approved site. You should know by now that our hands were tied in this situation. Nothing we could do was going to change the way it was set up.

And David, I'll put the local knowledge up against anyone thats miles and miles away any day of the week. Les and Glenn have proven themselves in this area time and time again, I don't think someone on the other side of the country has call to comment. Alan, although he means well, has posted inaccurate information in the past. Only local people in the field who do this stuff day to day have the true knowledge.

[David Morrison]

steveb, on Feb 24 2007, 02:30 PM, said:

And David, I'll put the local knowledge up against anyone thats miles and miles away any day of the week. Les and Glenn have proven themselves in this area time and time again, I don't think someone on the other side of the country has call to comment. Alan, although he means well, has posted inaccurate information in the past. Only local people in the field who do this stuff day to day have the true knowledge.

I don't doubt that (some) local people have the knowledge and experience required, and I never claimed that. What I commented on was that instead of demonstrating it, they resort to name calling.

If I were having reception problems, I would look here for information. If I were to see posts from someone who seemed to know what they were talking about and was quite helpful, I would probably give them a call.

But instead we get people who seem to have huge egos telling others they are wrong and not contributing anything themselves. Not exactly an attitude that would endear them to potential customers.

And I should add that I have had past experience with one of the "local experts" you mention. He just cut the cable to one antenna to "resolve" a problem, which just created others, and did not tell anyone what he had done, let alone ask first!

David

[crownms123]

My brother has just had an antenna installer claiming they have thirty years experience complete an installation for him. He lives in the Elermore Vale region so I had a look around the street and noticed many installations were 40 foot masts consisting of Wisi EE06 UHF antenna and a FM for NBN. This installer had told me that he would use a UHF yagi and would need a masthead amplifier with 34 DB on UHF to perform perfect analog and digital reception. I suggested, "how about an EE06 like everyone else". The end result was, a 1 metre tripod mast, an EE06 and a Kingray MHW34G amplifier. All cable was RG6Q as requested by me with a 3 way matchmaster splitter. The picture quality on analog was attrotious with much ghosting. The digital quality was about 83% through the set top box. I then attempted to repair the installation. Using the same 1 metre mast with the EE06, I removed the amplifier, replacing it with a MHW34FS. I repositioned the antenna which was positioned too much to the left. End result was 100% digital signal with no dropouts. Didn't bother with the analog as there is not much to gain. My point to this story is "why do some antenna installers with years experience persist on showing arrogance for something they really have no clue about. I have undertaken a Matchmaster course as I was recommended to do by matchmaster. I do installations for family and friends at the current time.

The fact is there are certain installations that do require a 'professional' to do the job. Please make sure that you choose someone with strength meters, especially for digital. Don't fall into the trap of choosing someone who will make you call someone else or fix the job yourself. I must say that I have had Les Field work on my television sets in the past and have always had an excellent job done. There are others as well who you can choose. Also make sure you choose Australian made and tested products. Let us keep our jobs and money and help promote australian products. GME Kingray and Matchmaster have always given me excellent support for their products.

[crownms123]

I would also like to agree with David on the issue of arrogance and sarcasm from antenna installers, especially in Newcastle. I have argued with installers before because they seem to know everything. I live in a location where I can see the Mount Sugarloaf towers from my rooftop clearly to the northwest in Charlestown. However, I was quoted $750.00 for an antenna installation to replace my existing 10 element VHF yagi for Sydney, EE06 Wisi UHF for Newcastle and NBN FM antenna with an amplifier for Sydney. Another quote was for $360.00 to replace it stating I was in a bad area. In the end, I did it myself for about $300.00 and with the MHV44HLG Kingray amplifier turned on the lowest gain for VHF High Band, I am receiving perfect analog reception and digital up to 95% for Sydney. The house is split 4 ways. All local digital and analog is perfect 100%. I was told I would not receive Sydney channels by installers claiming decades of experience. I sit at home and enjoy those great movies on Sydney stations that some Newcastle people miss out on, especially on Sundays when all the local channels are dominated by sport etc. Crisp, clear dropout free digital. I agree that if you have the know how of do it yourself when it comes to antennas, try it, you'll be amazed. I would have to thank people like AlanH for taking the time to give information on this website. I also wish to thank Matchmaster Communications in Punchbowl, Sydney for their excellent products and service. GME for their Kingray products. All products available from good antenna wholesalers and retailers. They helped me to achieve the best pictures for deep fringe installations. Trial is the best way of achieving results. Not just arrogance and words that something won't work when it will. I am a computer technician and have been for the last 15 years. I never quote on something unless I have tried it before and know it works but I never assume it doesn't unless I have tested it.  Anything is possible for the electronics world today. Digital television has allowed many people to achieve excellent tv reception when they have put up with grainy pictures for years. The signal is stronger. It can travel for longer periods as opposed to analog which weakens the further it travels. These are facts. I have been told that there are certain areas of Newcastle and Sydney that can receive fringe signals if need be by technicians which have designed the above equipment. This proves that they know more than any installer in the industry. They manufacture the products. They know what they are capable of receiving.

[lesftv]

alanh, on Feb 24 2007, 12:43 PM, said:

Les,
I did not notice your December post.
There is no AM transmitters on Mt Sugarloaf, only FM & TV. The top of a mountain is the worst place for an AM transmitter. They need good wet earth mats such as those in the Beresford area.

AlanH

Alan,
My computer has been down for a while and anyway I have been far too busy of late to even look at this site. Looking at the quote above, What on earth are you talking about? There are 6 AM transmitters on Mt.Sugarloaf. These are the vision carriers of the 6 analog TV tranmitters. Glenn has already aluded to this in previous posts - and yes, he was right.
Now, all you have to do is calculate the relationship between these vision carrier frequencies to ascertain the AM interference on SC10 of which I have spoken. And, to repeat, this is in the domain of the diligent antenna installer to prevent this interference happening.
lesf

[GlennP]

David Morrison, on Feb 25 2007, 01:48 PM, said:

I don't doubt that (some) local people have the knowledge and experience required, and I never claimed that. What I commented on was that instead of demonstrating it, they resort to name calling.

If I were having reception problems, I would look here for information. If I were to see posts from someone who seemed to know what they were talking about and was quite helpful, I would probably give them a call.

But instead we get people who seem to have huge egos telling others they are wrong and not contributing anything themselves. Not exactly an attitude that would endear them to potential customers.

And I should add that I have had past experience with one of the "local experts" you mention. He just cut the cable to one antenna to "resolve" a problem, which just created others, and did not tell anyone what he had done, let alone ask first!

David

Just to clear things up & have my right of reply to everyone.
It wasn't me who did the last thing David mentioned.
SteveB thanks for your comments, Port Stephens is behind us we just have to wait & see how it goes, I haven't had any "ducting" problems this year. 95% of all ducting episodes this year have come from the North not the South.
AlanH does post some helpful things in here, but in the past has posted some very incorrect local information & sent people asking for help in the wrong direction that would/did only make their problems worse.
He posts in every forum with similar info & gets the same comments from all the local installers.
He is a broadcast engineer (like SteveB) not an antenna installer. SteveB doesn't "suggest" how people in West Aus. (where AlanH comes from) how they should install their antennas, becasue he doesn't have any local knowledge to do so.

crownms123
Would you tell people in a West Aus. town how to install their antenna systems, what they should be using & where it should be pointing to?
As you have mentioned even experience doesn't mean your going to get it right, you need local knowledge & don't rely on what the theory tells you, as you found out local testing & practice doesn't always match up with the theory.

You also mention about keeping jobs & our money here & promoting Australian products, but you have suggested use of the Wisi EE06 antenna a number of times. Yes it is sold locally by Matchmaster but it's made & imported here from Germany, so your totally going against what you've suggested. If you want an Australian designed, tested & manufactured antenna use the Hills Ultimax 36 antenna (looks the same as the Wisi, has similar tech. specs. but in many installers opinions out performs the Wisi in poor signal areas).

Cheers
GlennP.

[crownms123]

GlennP,

OK, I admit I made a blunder about the Wisi EE06. Yes, it is German but many people have sworn by it that there was no other comparison on the market. I'm glad you have found the Hills antenna effective. I'll have to try one next time. No one has ever recommended it to me so its worth a try. No, I couldn't help anyone with WA installations. I only mention what has worked for me when other installers have told me it wouldn't, fullstop. This is for Sydney and Newcastle installations. I was told in Enfield, Sydney that my signal in my area was dead. Both for South Coast and Sydney reception. I received signal from both areas dropout free on digital. I'm only saying that some installers talk rubbish just because they either don't want to do the job or they think they can pick up signal or no signal without having the necessary testing equipment. I am just really surprised that a so called expert in a difficult reception area such as elermore vale in Newcastle couldn't help me and was rude about it. I was too busy at the time to do the installation for my brother. I should have just had him call someone like Les to look at it. But hey, not everyone can do an installation. You guys still have a massive market share out there, especially with the digital craze increasing with time. I have just had installers in the past do half jobs and not finish the installations eg. leave cable lose on walls, putting antennas in the wrong place on the mast, wrong direction etc. Wanting to use RG59 when I want RG6 Quad. I offer to pay extra. They have rolls of it in their vans. I know some, not all but enough to get by with small installations. Anything bigger, and I call someone with more knowledge. AlanH only gives ideas. He doesn't set up the installation for the customer on this website. Only a guide so someone isn't severely ripped off just like I have been. There are honest installers out there, its just a pity not all are.

[crownms123]

LesTV,

By the way, what channels do you pick up where you live in the Newcastle area, Les? Do you get everything crystal clear? Is it only the local stuff or can you get Sydney etc. Just curious on what you have been able to pick up with the right gear and experience.

Crownms123.

[lesftv]

crownms123
In the Newcastle area, the channels available are NBN, ABC, SBS, Prime & SC10. I am NOT interested in accomadating customers who want to receive signals direct from Sydney when they live in the Newcastle market. Way in the past, Newcastle viewers used to receive signals from Sydney. No longer is this the case with digital. Anyone who wants to receive Sydney signals, should move to within the coverage area of the Sydney transmitters.
lesf

[helpmeimdumb]

jaybonzi, on Dec 17 2004, 08:03 AM, said:

Perhaps we don't try to offer advice outside our own market. Very dodgy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Give him a break les his just trying to help

Can anyone tell me whats the number in the brackets and the number signify?

example;  SBS(3)38

[mtv]

helpmeimdumb, on Apr 11 2007, 01:56 PM, said:

Can anyone tell me whats the number in the brackets and the number signify?

example;  SBS(3)38

Where are you seeing this displayed?

Most likely, the (3) is the logical channel number, which is what is shown for that channel on a STB display, whilst 38 is the actual channel it is being transmitted on.
In other words, SBS channel 38 is displayed on your set top box (or other digital receiver) as 3

[Robert E]

lesftv, on Mar 21 2007, 08:15 PM, said:

crownms123
In the Newcastle area, the channels available are NBN, ABC, SBS, Prime & SC10.
lesf

And from some time during the day of 11 Apr 2007 we also have MyTalk on 55 (Ch 51 broadcasting a test pattern 576i) - does anyone know what MyTalk is all about?

Robert

[Carterrrr]

Hi All
You're sure to throw rocks at me, but I tried to start a new subject, and was knocked back, even though I'm registered and all - honestly.

Anyway, has anybody noticed a general improvement in PQ on all channels from Sugarloaf, recently? Definition seems improved, along with depth of field (sorry Les).

Perhaps all that recent rain has washed the crud from my antenna?

Cheers
NOEL GORDON

[Carterrrr]

[quote name='GlennP' date='Apr 30 2006, 02:20 PM' post='395616']

Hi Glen
This will hurl the moggie among the feathered lot --- A few years ago in Woodberry, several hundred metres from the transmitter, it was possible to hear ABC programs through the speakers of a record player --- which was not fitted with a radio tuner. NO TUNER!  I have experienced it.

Cheers
NOEL GORDON

[alanh]

Carterrrr,
Thank you about the AM interference. Those transmitters are only 10 kW try living near 50 kW each!

Alanh

[lesftv]

alanh, on Apr 12 2007, 07:49 PM, said:

Carterrrr,
Thank you about the AM interference. Those transmitters are only 10 kW try living near 50 kW each!

Alanh

Alan, I am surprised you haven't replied to my post to you way back on page II of this topic. You haven't admitted there are 6 AM transmitters on Mt. Sugarloaf.
lesf