167 replies to this topic

[James T Kirk]

Hello BW~Merlin

Can you establish which of the three Gold Coast transmitters sites your antenna is pointing towards? Is it Mt Tamborine (H), Currumbin (V) or Mt Springbrook (H)?
Parkwood is a known blackspot area for TV reception and Mt Springbrook was added  a few years back to help Parkwood and other poor reception areas nearby.
This may help myself and other readers help you.

James

(H) Horizontal antenna polarity
(V) Vertical antenna polarity

[BW~Merlin]

After getting a compass out and orientating myself in the direction of our antenna (240 magnetic degrees South West) I have come to the conclusion of nothing.  I do not know which transmission site we are pointed towards (I think we get it from Tamborine but I am unsure) as our antenna does not point towards any transmission site.  How do I test this as my efforts with the compass didn't make anything clearer?  I believe our antenna is a horizontal polarity as the fins (sorry I don't know the correct term) are all horizontal to the ground (our antenna does not have any X shaped "fins" on it just bits of "wire" sticking out the sides).

Thanks

[mtv]

BW~Merlin,

Firstly, you must be able to measure signals at the antenna to determine the signal strength and quality, before you can calculate what level of ampification is required.

In addition to there being 3 transmission sites, of which you say your antenna is not pointing at any of them, all three use a single freqency network (SFN) which means they all transmit using the same frequencies, which can make antenna choice, mounting location and heigt, critical, as it's possible you may be receiving more than one transmission site from your location, which can cause interference.

You need to ensure all your cabling is well-shielded .. eg: RG6 Quadshield.

Considering you don't know what antenna you have and where it's pointing, I would stongly recommend you having a professional installer check your antenna, distribution system and measure your signals.... then guide you from there, as it's impossible to know what your signals are doing without accurate signal measurements.

[alanh]

BW~Merlin,
Firstly Currumbin is not viable due to a hill about 17 km from you and that the transmitter power is much lower than Mt Tambourine.
You are not in Gold Coast Southern so that site which is near the NSW border is too far away. There is no analog TV transmitters for the Gold Coast Southern site.

Your antenna should be at a bearing of 260 degrees. Beware that the antenna can affect the magnetic compass. You should put a straight piced of wood between the antenna and the compass. It should be at least 25 mm thick. Put the wood paralllel with the boom and line the compass up with it.

There is some hills near your place which will block the signal which are making your signal strength lower.
So turn you antenna 10 degrees more towards the north and see what happens. In addition there is no analog TV rransmi

You should be able to receive;
SBS36
NRN43 (Southern Cross NSW)
BTQ53 (7 Network Brisbane)
TVQ56 (TEN Brisbane)
QTQ59 (Nine Brisbane)
ABQ62 ABC Qld)
NEN65 Prime NSW
NBN68 (Note it has a local Gold Coast News)

Post what happens.


AlanH

[BW~Merlin]

Thanks alanh I will try that when it stops raining and I can got onto the roof proper.

MTV we did figure we might need an antenna person to come out and check but wanted to get some info first before anyone came out so we would have something to go with other then their word that what they were doing is correct etc.

[James T Kirk]

Hello BW~Merlin

MTV offers good practical advice

Alanh appears to offer definitive advice however it is regularly with no local knowledge and is routinely found to fall short of fact.
As a resident of Parkwood you will have noted that you can go from one home to the next and find their antennas pointing in completely different directions and differing polarities, yours is a difficult location. When surveys were undertaken to verify the new Springbrook site coverage, one aspect that was noted was there are many from your area across to Pacific Pines who made efforts to receive Currumbin.

From your reply I acknowledge you are using a horizontally polarised antenna and that you are trying to receive Mt Tamborine either directly from an inaccurately pointed antenna or from a carefully selected reflected signal set up by a qualified installer previously. If you choose to follow Alanh's advice please carefully note where it is presently pointing and the elevation in case his advice worsens the situation.

If you choose to sort this promptly and reliably, I would suggest you follow the advice of MTV since this is not an area of your expertise and this is a difficult location, complicated by the SFN alluded to previously. To ask the installer if the new Springbrook site is a good solution, combined with buying set top boxes for your last two analogue tv's, may well be a good solution.

Alternatively if experimentation is of interest to you and you are comfortable being on rooves, enjoy and please let us know how you go.

James

[alanh]

James,
MTV does not work in the Gold Coast and his advice is basically to get an Antenna installers.

You did not suggest the very easy and free modification to correct an antenna installation problem.
You have not done a signal path survey

Currumbin 1,000 W vertically polarised. 24 km away bearing 153 degrees A signal blocking hill at 17 km away.
Mt Tambourine 25,000 W horizontally polarised 16 km away bearing 260 degrees Small hill near the receiving site
Bilbrough Lookout SPRINGBROOK, 1,000 W horizontally polarised 33 km away 195 degrees. No obstructions

All of the transmitters have directional antennas to keep the coverage areas separated due to the Single Frequency Network.
The Mt Tambourine transmitters have the coverage for your area and is closest and the transmitter is much more powerful.

The original installer made the correct transmitter selection, however your antenna has turned in the wind

I have a brother in law who lives in this area and I have visited him, he uses the Currumbin transmitters.

AlanH

[mtv]

alanh, on May 23 2011, 02:49 PM, said:

James,
MTV does not work in the Gold Coast and his advice is basically to get an Antenna installers.

AlanH

Wrong again Mr forum troll... I've been working in QLD recently, including the Gold Coast.

You on the other hand base your definitive advice from your chair in Perth.

Having visited your brother in law who lives on the Gold Coast means bugger all as every location is different..... even within the same area, reception can vary greatly, both with terrain and often complications with a SFN.

This is just like you claimed to know how signals performed in Turramurra, as you said you grew up in a nearby area... long before digital even existed here.

Nobody has performed signal tests at the OP's location, so the best advice is to have someone actually perform them..... an installer with a digital meter/spectrum analyser... and not go solely on the advice of some forum troll who is not and has never been an antenna installer and who now claims to 'know' an antenna has moved in the wind from his chair on the opposite side of the country.

Apart from the antenna issue, there is still the amplification and distribution issue to deal with.

I suppose AnalH can tell you what your signal levels are too, without being there.  

[alanh]

MTV,
Do you move over such a large area leaving a trail of dissatisfied customers?

You did not give him any free information. Read your own posts. You always just say you need to get an antenna installer. You don't even recommend one which is Digital Ready endorsed! At least they have to know more than if a green for ok ligth appears on the meter.

It iwll be interesting to see if when his antenna is repointed at the transmitter that his reception will return to its previously installed reliability.

I am well aware of the terrain, which is why I did a path survey.

RF signals are affected the same way whether they are analog or digital. Attenuations are controlled by the frequency and the terrain. Digital just means that crappy signals don't decode at all.

Obviously you only want this site for jobs not to help the posters. When are you going to pay for advertising like other antenna installers?

AlanH

[mtv]

alanh, on May 23 2011, 08:00 PM, said:

MTV,
Do you move over such a large area leaving a trail of dissatisfied customers?

You did not give him any free information. Read your own posts. You always just say you need to get an antenna installer. You don't even recommend one which is Digital Ready endorsed!

It iwll be interesting to see if when his antenna is repointed at the transmitter that his reception will return to its previously installed reliability.

I am well aware of the terrain, which is why I did a path survey.

RF signals are affected the same way whether they are analog or digital. Attenuations are controlled by the frequency and the terrain. Digital just means that crappy signals don't decode at all.

AlanH

You're getting worse, AnalH.

The funny thing is you used to refer posters to use me as an installer.... until I questioned your arrogant manner of only you can know anything.

Once again.... path survey... all theory.

All information I give here is free... there are often multiple possibilities as to what causes reception problems and the best result is obtained by someone who is actually there with test equipment. You often say the same thing... recommending having an installer with a digital meter check the antenna,cabling etc.... or are you now saying you never say that?

What a sad, pathetic individual you have become.

[alanh]

MTV,

You can only make measurements when you are contracted by a customer. Its not as if you are going to go to any location and make measurements as a result of a post on this site unless they pay.

As for theory, it has been used by the DCBCE to produce the results on the DigitalReady website. They cannot measure every housing block in the country!
My results also agree with this.

I have done many path surveys for much more critical microwaves including calculating the signal strength.

Show me where you have given free advice on this site which is not generalised advice of get an antenna installer? This site already says that Quad shelded RG6 cable with F connectors should be used.


AlanH

[mtv]

alanh, on May 23 2011, 08:35 PM, said:

MTV,
The local installers must be welcoming your arrival with open arms.
You are only on site if a customer invites you.

As for theory, it has been used by the DCBCE to produce the results on the DigitalReady website. They cannot measure every housing block in the country!
My results also agree with this.

I have done many path surveys for much more critical microwaves including calculating the signal strength.

AlanH

Another AnalH 'nothing' post.

Any installer is only on site if a customer requests their services..... not sure what you think that's supposed to mean.

Of course.... nobody... even you.... can possibly know what signal measurements are at any specific location, which is why those measurements are very broad generalisations, which you are now admitting your results agree with.

To know exactly what signal measurements are at a specific location, with a specific antenna, mounted at a specific point at a specific height, requires 'factual' measurements, not theoretical ones.

Signal path surveys for microwaves, including calculating the signal strength is an entirely different subject to DVB-T reception.

For starters, you would have been dealing with known measurements, equipment, antennas, waveguides, etc... and a line-of-sight scenario... and completely different frequency bands... nothing whatsoever to do with domestic digital TV reception, which is what this thread is about, but in typical form for you..... attempting to deflect the subject and incite an argument.

So tell us then, AnalH, considering you have the self-proclaimed magical powers of being able to determine signal measurements without being there.... what is the DCP, BER, MER and NM for each of BW~Merlin's channels.... at each of his eight outlets?..... that's right, it's impossible to know without being there with signal measuring equipment

If posters want information about microwave path surveys, then perhaps you may have some relevant experience to impart, but when a person requires information about digital television reception, specifically about antennas and installation, distribution and alignment issues, I'm sure most would agree that advice from professionals working in the field every day, in the real world, with current, local-knowledge, will have a far greater understanding of how things perform in the real world, compared to someone who has never been an antenna installer and who's only industry experience was working in broadcasting long before the introduction of digital and who lives in Perth, yet decrees to all and sundry in every part of Australia what they 'must' do.

I apologise to BW~Merlin, for the deterioration of this thread... just one of the many AnalH destroys with inane arguments.

A local installer is your best-bet.

You may get lucky experimenting with antenna direction and you may not, likewise with obtaining reliable distribution to all your outlets.

Let's know how you get on.

[James T Kirk]

Alanh

Some responses to your statement

(1)MTV does not work in the Gold Coast and his advice is basically to get an Antenna installers.
(Answer)I don't know where MTV works but rightly or wrongly I concluded BW~Merlin would ultimately need an installer and advised accordingly.

(2)You did not suggest the very easy and free modification to correct an antenna installation problem.
(Answer)Incorrect, I canvassed your option however I simply advised to note the present location carefully in case this was another occasion where you were illequipped to advise.

(3)You have not done a signal path survey
(Answer)Incorrect, but more to the point I can describe to the reader why your survey was useless, you do not know where BW~Merlin is in Parkwood and where you are in Parkwood determined which of the three will serve best, it's pretty basic stuff.

(4)Currumbin 1,000 W vertically polarised. 24 km away bearing 153 degrees A signal blocking hill at 17 km away.
Mt Tambourine 25,000 W horizontally polarised 16 km away bearing 260 degrees Small hill near the receiving site
Bilbrough Lookout SPRINGBROOK, 1,000 W horizontally polarised 33 km away 195 degrees. No obstructions
(Answer) You may be right, but until BW~Merlin's address is known this is simply guesswork. (note that I'm not suggesting he should post his address).

(5)All of the transmitters have directional antennas
(Answer) Yes
(6)to keep the coverage areas separated due to the Single Frequency Network.
(Answer) Beyond belief indicating a glaring lack of knowledge of the area but also generally no grasp of SFN operation (Previously established also)

(7)The Mt Tambourine transmitters have the coverage for your area and is closest and the transmitter is much more powerful.
(Answer a) Mt Tamborine (correct spelling)
(Answer b ) Possibly, some areas of Parkwood will have coverage from Tamborine
(8)and is the closest and the transmitter is much more powerful.
(Answer) Yes, but it does not follow that the signal from Tamborine will be the greatest of the three at BW~Merlin's home.

(9)The original installer made the correct transmitter selection, however your antenna has turned in the wind
(Answer) Maybe, maybe not, personally I have no way of ascertaining this without BW~Merlin's input.

(10)I have a brother in law who lives in this area and I have visited him, he uses the Currumbin transmitters.
(Answer) Puzzling, one considers asking if this is so why was Currumbin rejected outright initially by Alanh but I won't. When this happens the explanations tend to be worse.

James

Edited by James T Kirk, 23 May 2011 - 09:49 PM.

[mtv]

You had better quote those messages then.. which area... the Gold Coast?, from which installers and what poor behaviour are you alleging?

If this is some lame attempt to discredit and defame my business reputation, you had better substantiate your allegations, or withdraw that comment.

[mtv]

In typical AlanH style, he fabaricates lies, makes untrue statements and then falls silent when challenged and cannot provide evidence of his claims.

This is a perect example.... first he states:

alanh said:

MTV does not work in the Gold Coast........

Then he states:

alanh said:

The local installers must be welcoming your arrival with open arms. I have had private messages about your poor behaviour from installers in this area.

Yet another thread derailed by that forum troll.

[Smacca]

alanh, on May 23 2011, 12:49 PM, said:

I have a brother in law who lives in this area and I have visited him,

But Alan, if it ain't on paper, it ain't true.

So, basically, AlanH doesn't have a brother in law at all and he never visited him. That's going by the 'guilty until proven innocent' method Alan uses on every single member of this forum.

[BW~Merlin]

We are having a professional antenna person come out to take a look as things have been getting worst (I can't watch DTV now as it always breaks up).  What things should we ask them?  Are there any numbers/figures we should know or enquire about (I did read in another threat on here that an antenna person should be able to get at least a certain number (probably in relation to signal quality/strength/interference) that would mean they knew what they were doing)?  How do we know they are up to scratch (getting clear reception on all our TV's is probably a good indicator but is there anything else)?  Are there any things they may suggest that we should or shouldn't get (shiny bauble)?

Thanks all.

[alanh]

Use an endorsed digital installer

Also read the first post in this strand.

AlanH

[bellotv]

BW~Merlin, on Jun 18 2011, 04:07 PM, said:

We are having a professional antenna person come out to take a look as things have been getting worst (I can't watch DTV now as it always breaks up).  What things should we ask them?  Are there any numbers/figures we should know or enquire about (I did read in another threat on here that an antenna person should be able to get at least a certain number (probably in relation to signal quality/strength/interference) that would mean they knew what they were doing)?  How do we know they are up to scratch (getting clear reception on all our TV's is probably a good indicator but is there anything else)?  Are there any things they may suggest that we should or shouldn't get (shiny bauble)?

Thanks all.

Hi BW~Merlin

First off I'm not from your area so I can not offer any local advice however.

If you got me out I would first ask you to demonstrate the issues you have. IE look at the TV and observe the problem channels.
I would ask if it was affecting any other TVs in the house.

I would then measure the signals on my meter at each outlet so that I knew if it was common to all or just to one or two .This would also give me a rough  indication of the cabling,splitting system in the house. Each outlet should  "IDEALLY"  be within 3-6dB of each other .Anything over about 10 dB difference ( on identical channels )would strike warning bells .( but there are exceptions that still work OK)

I would also be testing at the input to each  TV .This tells me whether its simply a lead issue.Or other looping issue.

There are two things I'm looking at ,Signal Strength which is measured in dBuV and Signal Quality.
With Quality we measure the Bit Error Ratio (BER) and MER

So typically after 5-10 minutes of accessing the signals inside I would be able to say yes the signals are OK or no they aren't and we need to get up on the roof and have a look up there.
Occasionally the signals do measure OK and it turns out that the equipment has a poor tuner in it .This can be confirmed by connecting a STB and showing that all is OK.
I always keep a few in the van so its a few minutes to confirm this.

So If the signal levels are not Ok ,its up on the roof .

I get out an appropriate antenna ( or antennas) for the possible local channels and connect my meter to it .I take reads at the same location as the present antenna.I look at the readings and mentally workout if its reasonable that with the number of splits in the house and cabling lengths that whats up there is consistent with whats at each outlet.This is a signal strength measure and  confirms that the house cabling and antenna are working within reason.Or not

Often the present location of the antenna IS NOT THE BEST POSITION ON THE ROOF.
Contrary to popular believe,antennas rarely blow "off course"  in winds .The most common reason for deteriorating reception is Tree ( foliage) growth in the neighborhood.This dramatically effects how the signals arrive at the antenna and usually affect some channels more than others .

It is absolutely pointless persisting with reception from the existing  position if this is the case.
A new position has to be found .

I would spend a while walking over the roof checking various heights and positions to see if there is a better place to mount the antenna .
If there are several possible transmitters available then tests from all need to be taken.

Then I will come down and give you the verdict .If you have not seen me do any of the above then I can't give you a clear answer.

OK so what about the magic figures? (I hate to say but there is no magic number.)
It is the BEST that can be found at you property but less than 1e-02 is doomed.

You read elsewhere "If the installer can't get 1e-04 get some one else "(or words to that effect)
That was written by someone that has never used a field strength meter and picked an arbitrary figure out of his anus.( with a huge margin for error)

I have installed many antenna systems where the channel BER was way down near 1e-02 and the customers are happy and constantly say how pleased they are that they have clear pictures now .( We live in a small town and see each other more often than not )    
Often it is IMPOSSIBLE to get any better than this  (1e-02).(So you could  evoke the services of many to end up at the same conclusion if the logic  of the writer is employed) At some locations that's as good as it will ever get!!

The important thing is that the installer  must find the BEST  STABLE  SIGNAL at your location and supply that signal to each outlet at a suitable  level

Do I think that 1e-02 is Ok ?

No ,it is appalling ,Its down around the point of digital failure .I would ideally like it way up round 1e-5 or higher but its  not always possible

Does 1e-02 show a perfect picture? YES .but if it gets any worse NO.

By the way I have mentioned BER as Channel BER or B BER .There is also PV BER and A BER readings ,if you are given these then beware.

Edited by bellotv, 19 June 2011 - 12:39 AM.

[alanh]

The best advice is that the installation must conform to Australian Standard 1367:2007 Coaxial cable and optical fibre systems for the RF distribution of analog and digital television and sound signals in single and multiple dwelling installations.
Table 9.3 on page 116 specifies the following "Minimum digital Signal Quality at a system outlet (Wallplate)"

It includes values for;
Minimum Carrier to Noise ratio,
Minimum Modulation Error Ratio,
Bit Error Rates both Pre Viterbi and Post Viterbi.

Signal level tolerances are quoted elsewhere in the document.

I have not quoted the values becaise tje document is copyright

AS1367:2007
The price is a deterent, however the state library system may have an online account.

AlanH

[James T Kirk]

Hello BW~Merlin

Bellotv also offers good practical advice.

All due respect to you BW~Merlin but I don't think you want to become an expert at AS1367 nor do you want to buy a copy of that standard, you just want your telly fixed and don't want to be ripped off in the process.

Sadly again this is why AlanH's advice is simply inept and ridiculous because without understanding AS1367 you'd never know if what you were supplied was compliant. Seriously, there's a good chance your antenna man hasn't read AS1367 either !
Good installations occurred prior to AS1367, remember that Australian Standards are there to ensure minimum standards are achieved, not excellence.

Forget the AlanH twaddle, get your man in after having read and getting your head around an example of the practical processes to expect as described by Bellotv.
Bellotv can correct me if I have interpreted this incorrectly but I think he is suggesting there is value in staying with and observing your antenna man during his checks. This will give you reason for confidence or otherwise when he ultimately makes his recommendations.

James

[alanh]

James,
The Australian standard ensures reliable reception under all circumstances. All electricians have to buy AS3000 to remain compliant so why shouldn't Antenna installers have to install to a standard which the public can rely on rather than an installer who knows nothing of antenna systems and their minimum performance required from their digital signal meters. Installers don't have to have any knowledge or skills at all.

The standard covers MATV systems which cost many thousands as well as single TV installations. I suggest you read it and learn a lot before you criticise it.

AlanH

[James T Kirk]

AlanH

Alan you are an idiot.
The Australian Standard will not ensure reliable reception under all circumstances, what a stupid thing to say.

Quite apart from that BW~Merlin does not want to learn AS1367, he simply wants to be informed on what service he requires which is the way it should be, he is being a responsible consumer.

Alan, with your reference to AS3000, thank God this is just a DTV forum, if it was a an electrical industry forum your advice might be fatal.

James

[Brisat]

"" Installers don't have to have any knowledge or skills at all.""
If this is the case why are there so many disagreements on here

[bellotv]

Brisat, on Jun 20 2011, 11:10 PM, said:

"" Installers don't have to have any knowledge or skills at all.""
If this is the case why are there so many disagreements on here

my higher self took control

Edited by bellotv, 20 June 2011 - 11:19 PM.