344 replies to this topic

[alanh]

doyle63,
Read the first post in this strand. Look at the transmitter list and the coverage area maps  links.

AlanH

[BCL]

Anyone in (North west suburbs) Burton 5110 or nearby find that ch10, One etc gets blocky and freezes up at night?
All my other stations are fine, just the cH10 suite are no good at night.

Edited by BCL, 15 September 2010 - 04:12 PM.

[mtv]

BCL, on Sep 15 2010, 04:11 PM, said:

Anyone in (North west suburbs) Burton 5110 or nearby find that ch10, One etc gets blocky and freezes up at night?
All my other stations are fine, just the cH10 suite are no good at night.

Have you tried a UHF (Band 4 plus or band 4 & 5) vertically polarised, pointed at the Craigmore translators?

[BCL]

mtv, on Sep 15 2010, 05:12 PM, said:

Have you tried a UHF (Band 4 plus or band 4 & 5) vertically polarised, pointed at the Craigmore translators?

Thanks Col that sounds like a very specific answer. I appreciate your time.  

I looked at the ABC coverage maps, they don't list Craigmore for Burton but they don't have a map for the Craigmore coverage either.

We have only recently moved in to the house, hence the question.

I should imagine from the direction my antennae is pointing (south or south east from memory), and that it is horizontally polarised that it would be currently pointed at Crafers (or Grenfell St).
I am not sure what sort of antenna it is; I think that it it may be an FM and UHF antenna (given that there is an FM wall fitting next to the TV wall fitting) and there are no big long elements so probably not UHF & analog. I'd guess at it being a H5 with FM.
Sorry I can't tell you much more about it.

Edited by BCL, 17 September 2010 - 04:31 PM.

[M'bozo]

I doubt you would get Craigmore where you are.  I couldn't see it at Parafield Gardens when I was there a couple of months ago, however, that was in an area with many trees, which wouldn't help....

You should be fine getting your signal from Crafers, providing your antenna and everything it is attached to are suitable.

If you know how to access your device's signal strength & quality indicators, and can see what they show when Ten works, and then when it doesn't, that may give a clue.

You could always take a picture of your antenna & post it here.

[mtv]

I picked up the Craigmore translators from Para Hills, but with a clear signal path.

I'm not saying they will be suitable, I only asked if perhaps BCL had tried them.

Providing there's a clear signal path, Crafers/Mt Lofty should be reliable.

[BCL]

M'bozo, on Sep 17 2010, 04:10 PM, said:

I doubt you would get Craigmore where you are.  I couldn't see it at Parafield Gardens when I was there a couple of months ago, however, that was in an area with many trees, which wouldn't help....

You should be fine getting your signal from Crafers, providing your antenna and everything it is attached to are suitable.

If you know how to access your device's signal strength & quality indicators, and can see what they show when Ten works, and then when it doesn't, that may give a clue.

You could always take a picture of your antenna & post it here.

Yes I shall have to photograph it, on further inspection it isn't entirely as I described.
I am hesitant to purchase an antenna of a different type, just to see if it works. No offence intended, I'm just tight.

My Samsung internal HD tuner TV displays a bit error rate and a signal strength/quality (sorry I should have written down which it was).
When it is working it has a strength of 50 (other channels are 65 + but generally around 75-85) and a variable error rate that fluctuates wildly but seems to average approximately 1,400. This doesn't seem to affect the image.
The scale only goes up to an error of 2,000 and when it is blocky (still a strength of 50 - it does not change) the error rate is still fluctuating wildly but conistently maxes out (and image goes blocky & sound is corrupted) so I have no idea of what the actual error rate would be except to say above 2,000.

Edited by BCL, 22 September 2010 - 10:30 AM.

[alanh]

BCL,
Burton has a clear view to the Craigmore transmitter site. You need a UHF phased array for reception. Its longest axis must be horizontal.
Go to the first post in this strand and click on the V4+ link for recommendations.

AlanH

[M'bozo]

BCL, on Sep 22 2010, 10:28 AM, said:

The scale only goes up to an error of 2,000 and when it is blocky (still a strength of 50 - it does not change) the error rate is still fluctuating wildly but conistently maxes out (and image goes blocky & sound is corrupted) so I have no idea of what the actual error rate would be except to say above 2,000.

I haven't been able to work out what the error rate means either, it is only a guide, but in your case it shows their is a deficiency in the receive set up, as far as the set is concerned, comparing 10 to the other channels. (which is the reason I asked).

I use this screen to demonstrate to customers why they are having a problem before I start, and show the improvement when finished.

On installs I do with Sammys, the end result is usually strength ~85, 0 errors.

I'm just about to go out and fix a Samsung TV experiencing bad reception now, I'll see if I can convert those error readings back to something I might understand, however, posting an image of the antenna would also be helpful.

[M'bozo]

M'bozo, on Sep 22 2010, 12:36 PM, said:

I'm just about to go out and fix a Samsung TV experiencing bad reception now, I'll see if I can convert those error readings back to something I might understand

Didn't learn much, except the Bit error level has to be >2000 (ie off scale) for picture breakup , and the crude method I employed to make the picture fail didn't allow for absolute measurements to be meaningful.

With 0 Bit Error Level, the set would work down to Signal strength of 6 before keeling over (this particular LED model), so to me, that suggests a signal issue in your case.

Sorry can't be more helpful.

[BCL]

alanh, on Sep 22 2010, 11:53 AM, said:

BCL,
Burton has a clear view to the Craigmore transmitter site. You need a UHF phased array for reception. Its longest axis must be horizontal.
Go to the first post in this strand and click on the V4+ link for recommendations.

AlanH

That's a very specific answer, thank you Alan.
That is two for Craigmore and one possibly against. Two and a half in favour sounds good enough.
I shall get a V4+ UHF phased array and mount it horizontally (making sure of course the one I purchase can be mounted horizontally).

Cheers,
Ben.

Edited by BCL, 23 September 2010 - 10:56 AM.

[BCL]

It seems as though Alan has given me a solution.
However, in the pursuit of knowledge of my current setup here is a picture of my current antenna:
The mystery antenna
Sorry I was not able to get the picture to actually appear here, so I had to upload and link it.


M'bozo: ah but you have learnt more. You now know more about the relationship between bit error levels and signal strength.

Edited by BCL, 23 September 2010 - 11:15 AM.

[mtv]

Ben,

The Craigmore translator signals are vertically polarised, not horizontal.

The antenna in your pic is a log periodic, which also has longer elements at the rear, designed for ABC Ch2 analogue reception, which is not ideal for digital signals, which don't require that band.
Your antenna is also designed for both bands 4 & 5 UHF, so before buying a new antenna, try turning your antenna so the elements are vertical and pointing the antenna at the Craigmore translators which are on Uley Rd, almost opposite the intersection with Jacaranda Drive.

You will have to rescan your tuner for the different frequencies used.

If you do buy a UHF phased array antenna, remember it must be vertically polarised (with the elements up/down).

I can't guarantee the Craigmore signals will be ok at your location, but it's worth a try.

It's possible your existing antenna is ok for the Mt Lofty main transmitters, but it may need to be moved to a different location on your roof.

[BCL]

mtv, on Sep 23 2010, 11:29 AM, said:

Ben,

The Craigmore translator signals are vertically polarised, not horizontal.

The antenna in your pic is a log periodic, which also has longer elements at the rear, designed for ABC Ch2 analogue reception, which is not ideal for digital signals, which don't require that band.
Your antenna is also designed for both bands 4 & 5 UHF, so before buying a new antenna, try turning your antenna so the elements are vertical and pointing the antenna at the Craigmore translators which are on Uley Rd, almost opposite the intersection with Jacaranda Drive.

You will have to rescan your tuner for the different frequencies used.

If you do buy a UHF phased array antenna, remember it must be vertically polarised (with the elements up/down).

I can't guarantee the Craigmore signals will be ok at your location, but it's worth a try.

It's possible your existing antenna is ok for the Mt Lofty main transmitters, but it may need to be moved to a different location on your roof.

Well I am glad I posted the pic, thank you for identifying it. Yes it is worth a try. Now that I know it is designed for bands 4&5 it certainly will cost me nothing to change it to vertical and point it at Craigmore, it's worth a try.

Do I need the analog elements for any reason? Would these be used for FM recpetion? There is an FM wall outlet in the lounge next to the tv outlet (we don't use the FM though). I am thinking if I flip it to vertical these longer elements won't clear the tiles. Can I just remove the offending longer rear elements without affecting anything else?

[mtv]

BCL, on Sep 23 2010, 05:14 PM, said:

Well I am glad I posted the pic, thank you for identifying it. Yes it is worth a try. Now that I know it is designed for bands 4&5 it certainly will cost me nothing to change it to vertical and point it at Craigmore, it's worth a try.

Do I need the analog elements for any reason? Would these be used for FM recpetion? There is an FM wall outlet in the lounge next to the tv outlet (we don't use the FM though). I am thinking if I flip it to vertical these longer elements won't clear the tiles. Can I just remove the offending longer rear elements without affecting anything else?

Yes, those longer rear elements would also cover the FM band.

The antenna may still work ok with the very last rear element removed, but having never tried it, I couldn't say for sure.

I only use the band 3/4 and 3/4/5 versions.

If the mast is so low that those elements will hit your roof, perhaps your mast is too low anyhow and the antenna may perform better with greater clearance above your roof.

Once again, without measuring signals at the antenna, it's unknown if a better mounting location can be found.

A check of signals (site test) at various spots on your roof, with different antennas, using a professional digital signal meter/spectrum analyser, would quickly identify which antenna, which mounting location and which transmission location would provide the best-possible result.

Experimenting with different antennas and locations can be costly, take considerable time and be very frustrating if acceptable results aren't achieved, but there's no harm in you trying, with what you have at the momemnt.

[BCL]

mtv, on Sep 23 2010, 06:22 PM, said:

Yes, those longer rear elements would also cover the FM band.

The antenna may still work ok with the very last rear element removed, but having never tried it, I couldn't say for sure.

I only use the band 3/4 and 3/4/5 versions.

If the mast is so low that those elements will hit your roof, perhaps your mast is too low anyhow and the antenna may perform better with greater clearance above your roof.

Once again, without measuring signals at the antenna, it's unknown if a better mounting location can be found.

A check of signals (site test) at various spots on your roof, with different antennas, using a professional digital signal meter/spectrum analyser, would quickly identify which antenna, which mounting location and which transmission location would provide the best-possible result.

Experimenting with different antennas and locations can be costly, take considerable time and be very frustrating if acceptable results aren't achieved, but there's no harm in you trying, with what you have at the momemnt.

Thank you (speaking in general to all respondents), for your patience with me.
This is probably where you guys start getting cranky at the newbie with the dumb questions who should leave the technical stuff to the professionals... So before we get to that point.
(1) Caveat: When I said about mounting the UHF phased array horizontally it was because Alan had written 'horizontally' and I just wrote what he had written. This was most probably a typo, because Allan clearly states in the first pages (his pdf tables) of this thread in his info section that it should have been vertical for Craigmore; my fault for enthusiasm and quoting verbatum.

So now to annoying you all...

The antenna was not intended for vertical mounting. It had no ability to mounted this way. As such I removed it from the roof and took it to the shed to 'modify' the mounting points. In doing so I drilled two new holes to enable vertical mounting. These new holes (or more specifically the drill bit) appeared to come into contact with some wires inside the antenna... I suspected that this was a bad thing but could not go backwards and proceeded with mounting it on the roof again. Once mounted vertically and pointed towards Craigmore I retuned the TV and was able to get the Ch 7 suite of channels only, with error bit rates in excess of 2000 (blocky picture). To test whether the 'drill bit contact with wires inside the antenna' was indeed a 'bad thing' I mounted it horizontally again in the Crafers direction and retuned again. "Poor or weak signal", nothing at all... indeed it would have appeared to have been a bad thing!

I hope that you get amusement from this rather than frustration.   I am not kicking myself, it is a waste of energy. So I made a mistake, life goes on.
I now am planning on purchasing a UHF vertical phased array to point at Craigmore and hope that if it does not get a good picture that I shall be able to exchange it for a horizontal 3/4.

MTV, thank you for your words, particulalry in the last paragraph. I appreciate that you can still think and converse like a Joe Bloe rather than a 'professional'. This goes for all of you guys and I state this because I am expecting to get flamed for my 'idiot who should not attempt something he knows nothing about' approach.

[BCL]

Double post removed

Edited by BCL, 23 September 2010 - 10:20 PM.

[alanh]

BCL,
I assumed you were not using a UHF phased array at present and that you would have to purchase one.

Alanh

[mtv]

Ben,

The LP antenna has a cable which runs inside the boom and connects at the end opposite the F connector.

I haven't seen the particular brand you have. It's likely to be a Chinese copy of the genuine Fracarro LP345F plus added band 1 elements.

The genuine Fracarro has mounting holes for mounting both horizontally and vertically.

If you buy/try a UHF phased array antenna, be sure you get one which can be mounted vertically, as some require an additional mounting bracket for vertical polarisation.

The Hills Hunter phased array shown in the link can be mounted both horizontally and vertically.

The pic shows the antenna vertically polarised (with the elements pointing up/down).

http://img137.images...hillshunter.jpg

Hope this helps.

[BCL]

mtv, on Sep 24 2010, 12:31 PM, said:

Ben,

The LP antenna has a cable which runs inside the boom and connects at the end opposite the F connector.

Ahh that makes sense, I now have a LP that has the cable connecting on the front of the boom instead of running through it. It was antenna #3 in the experiement.

It is all fixed.

For interest: here's the results of three antennas from JAYCAR:
Phased array in horizontal was actually more effective than in vertical when directed at Craigmore. I know it should not be. Go figure! Ch7 suite only.
Phased array in horizontal at Crafers: SBS suite only.

43 element horizontalat Craigmore: all channels tuned but 10 etc blocky, SBS blocky, ABC 'weak or no signal".
43 element horizontalat Crafers: 16 channels tuned but 7 & 10 suite blocky, 9 'weak or no signal'

Log periodic horizontalat Craigmore: 12 channels.
LP horizontal at Crafers: 19 Channels tuned. It was the last one Jaycar had so they sold me the shop display model that was already assembled. This is a factor later on...

How did I fix it? LP pointed at Crafers and it appeared as though the last couple of elements (largest) were not entirely straight so I straightened them up and made them all nice and parrallel and Bingo - all channels are good.

What did I learn? The phased array horizontal at Craigmore - well that was down right odd. The Log Periodic performed the best out of all 3 and there was probably a reason why there was a LP on the roof in the first place. Maybe the original antenna was ok but the rear elements may have been bent (since they are reasonably flimsy) by birds... I have seen pidgeons on the boom. In hindsight, I don't reckon the rear elements were entirelly straight and parrallel... If I had of straightened them, I don't reckon they would stay that way for long, bend just enough to make Ch 10 blocky perhaps...

[mtv]

Thanks for the update, BCL.

Obviously, you did a fair amount of experimenting and it's a good outcome for you.

Regardless of what works for you... that's the most important thing.... it works.  

[M'bozo]

Good for you, although, without knowing your methodology or cable distribution network, I'm not overly surprised.

I have difficulty receiving signals from Mission Hill (Penguin, Tasmania), at half the distance you would seem to be from the Elizabeth Downs site, for a similarly configured UHF vertically polarised translator that has 3 times the power of the site you were aiming for.

Vertical objects between transmitter and receiver cause all sorts of difficulties due to reflections/dispersion/absorption etc.

As a matter of interest, I did a survey at a house block in the Playford Alive development, the signal from Elizabeth Downs was highly variable compared to Crafers. That was only a little more than spitting distance away, I couldn't see the site, the root cause was probably vegetation.

[pug504]

Hi South Australians,

Im visiting the in laws place in Fullarton at the moment.  They have an old Grundig DTR 2420 STB that recieves all Digital channels except ABC 24.
Does anyone have any idea what the lack of reception issue may be?
There is no pixelation on any of the other channels and reception is generally very good.

Sorry - Im not sure what aerial setup they have on the roof.  They said they just have "an aerial".  Anyway its recieving the other commercial channels so it must be set up OK I presume..

Ive done a new auto scan and a manual add to the channel selection on the TV but to no avail.

Im visiting from Canberra however your beer and chocolate and Iced Coffee tastes better here...

Any feedback welcomed.

cheers,
Ian.

[alanh]

Pug,
Do a factory reset then a channel scan.

Can you get SBS HD, OneHD now?

AlanH

[M'bozo]

pug504, on Sep 27 2010, 05:21 PM, said:

and Iced Coffee tastes better here...

Yep.... nothing like the FUIC  

or the Cooper's

Edited by M'bozo, 27 September 2010 - 07:38 PM.