638 replies to this topic

[mtv]

 Fodder42, on Jun 15 2011, 07:40 PM, said:

Ollo, I previously had a setup with Wall Socket -> STB (Tevion) -> HTPC (TinyTwin UDB / Win7) and the reception in the North Sydney Area on the HTPC was fine. In this config the STB was not turned on - just in-line.

Unfortunately the STB recently decided it had had enough of its rather dull existence and gave up the ghost - which is a bit harsh as it really was an ideal life for an appliance.

Since then the TinyTwin USB tuner has not been able to pickup any Nine channels - i.e. Ch9, GEM, Go! - This hasn't been such an inconvenience till I went to watch the State of Origin, when it also occurred to me that Ch9 broadcasts the Cricket - not a happy thought. Other channels are fine which is nice... but not so useful tonight.

North Sydney is a difficult area for reception and we recently had an installer come in and replace Antenna and put in some in-line devices - attenuator and an FM filter.

Since then other devices, such as a different PC Tuner Card, the previously mentioned lazy STB have been getting acceptable reception on Ch9 - i.e. only broke up on particularly stormy / windy nights but it was watchable.

My question is in this config what mysterious function was the STB performing and to avoid subjecting another STB to a horrible life of perpetual sleep is there an alternate inline device I could use?

The STB may have been acting as an attenuator to some degree.

Which suburb are you in?.... North Sydney could be taken literally, or as a general area.

The type of antenna you are using can be critical.... which antenna do you have?

[Fodder42]

 mtv, on Jun 15 2011, 08:16 PM, said:

The STB may have been acting as an attenuator to some degree.

Which suburb are you in?.... North Sydney could be taken literally, or as a general area.

The type of antenna you are using can be critical.... which antenna do you have?

Thanks Col...  
Suburb: Wollstonecraft
Antenna: Alas, no idea as we are in a town but its installation and the other components did make a difference.

Its sounding like I may need another STB to replicate the magic.

[debruis]

 Fodder42, on Jun 15 2011, 08:53 PM, said:

Thanks Col...  
Suburb: Wollstonecraft
Antenna: Alas, no idea as we are in a town but its installation and the other components did make a difference.

Its sounding like I may need another STB to replicate the magic.

Or you could go up to Jaycar at Gore Hill and buy a couple of signal antenuators and install them instead of STB. Probably 3,6 or 9db or combination of. Channel 9's signal strength is extremely strong in Wollstonecraft and can be considerably higher than the others.

[mtv]

 Fodder42, on Jun 15 2011, 08:53 PM, said:

Thanks Col...
Suburb: Wollstonecraft
Antenna: Alas, no idea as we are in a town but its installation and the other components did make a difference.

Its sounding like I may need another STB to replicate the magic.

Without knowing which deign of antenna you have, or more importantly, accurate signal measurements, it's difficult to determine what exactly is the problem, or problems, as there may be more than one.

I suspect signal levels are still too high and further attenuation may be required.

The critical thing is if the installer installed an antenna designed to include channels below channel 6, it will be picking up very strong ABC analogue (Ch 2) TV and FM radio, which often overloads digital tuners.

Adding filters and attenuators to reduce these overloading frequencies is a case of 'closing the gate after the horse has bolted' when using the correct type of antenna reduces this interference naturally.

Even with the correct antenna, further attenuation of out of band signals and even the digital signals themselves may be required.

The problem with strong out of band interference is trying to minimise only those frequencies and not the wanted ones. Attenuators will reduce all frequencies, mostly equally, so by attenuating the unwanted ones, can also reduce the digital frequencies too much, as the level difference between the overloading analogue frequencies and the digital frequencies are large.

Specific filters for particular frequencies/bands help, but it's best to ensure you start with the correct antenna.

Once again, without having accurate signal measurements, it's difficult to determine what you need, but as debruis mentioned, you could try some attenuators, but I would recommend having the installer return and rectify the problem.

[debruis]

 mtv, on Jun 16 2011, 08:19 AM, said:

Without knowing which deign of antenna you have, or more importantly, accurate signal measurements, it's difficult to determine what exactly is the problem, or problems, as there may be more than one.

I suspect signal levels are still too high and further attenuation may be required.

The critical thing is if the installer installed an antenna designed to include channels below channel 6, it will be picking up very strong ABC analogue (Ch 2) TV and FM radio, which often overloads digital tuners.

Adding filters and attenuators to reduce these overloading frequencies is a case of 'closing the gate after the horse has bolted' when using the correct type of antenna reduces this interference naturally.

Even with the correct antenna, further attenuation of out of band signals and even the digital signals themselves may be required.

The problem with strong out of band interference is trying to minimise only those frequencies and not the wanted ones. Attenuators will reduce all frequencies, mostly equally, so by attenuating the unwanted ones, can also reduce the digital frequencies too much, as the level difference between the overloading analogue frequencies and the digital frequencies are large.

Specific filters for particular frequencies/bands help, but it's best to ensure you start with the correct antenna.

Once again, without having accurate signal measurements, it's difficult to determine what you need, but as debruis mentioned, you could try some attenuators, but I would recommend having the installer return and rectify the problem.

I tend to agree with Col about getting installer back. I have never needed an FM Filter on an installation in your area of Sydney as where you are located you can normally receive from 2 or 3 towers. Generally you would try for Artarmon first but being so close can cause issues with too higher signal as I am suspecting with Channel 9 at your place. Also antenna position and height is extremely important especially when you are close to the towers. The correct antenna will compensate for high signal levels or alternatively you can try a different type of antenna and receive signal from King Cross Tower which will be not as high and less likely to have any inteference and there is no need for FM Filters.

[Fodder42]

 debruis, on Jun 16 2011, 11:41 AM, said:

I tend to agree with Col about getting installer back. I have never needed an FM Filter on an installation in your area of Sydney as where you are located you can normally receive from 2 or 3 towers. Generally you would try for Artarmon first but being so close can cause issues with too higher signal as I am suspecting with Channel 9 at your place. Also antenna position and height is extremely important especially when you are close to the towers. The correct antenna will compensate for high signal levels or alternatively you can try a different type of antenna and receive signal from King Cross Tower which will be not as high and less likely to have any interference and there is no need for FM Filters.

Thanks very much Chaps - very interesting about the right Antenna fixing the issues - wishing I noted the model now before throwing out the box. Live and learn. I will trundle up to Jaycar and try out the attenuators and see how it goes and failing that its back to the unusual powered off STB solution.

[mtv]

 Fodder42, on Jun 16 2011, 09:27 PM, said:

Thanks very much Chaps - very interesting about the right Antenna fixing the issues - wishing I noted the model now before throwing out the box. Live and learn. I will trundle up to Jaycar and try out the attenuators and see how it goes and failing that its back to the unusual powered off STB solution.

If you can post a pic of the antenna, we'll be able to identify it.

Don't assume running the antenna through another STB will work... you need to actually fix the problem, not the symptom.

[jtsiontsis]

Hello, I reside in Earlwood, Sydney and am battling to get a decent digital broadcast from all channels.

I have been using an internal Jaycar antenna for some time, i think it is a good internal antenna but for my place it has never been sufficient, so this week I have installed an external antenna myself.

I have checked the getting started guide and am in a Pink area ( it looks like dark pink from north sydney tower) on myswitch, I tried a hills PHD 1 antenna and was not getting clear reception so I upgraded to a PHD 2. Does it really matter whether I use a PHD1 or 2? I currently have 2 TV outlets and may want to upgrade to 4 in the future? I am still not getting a clear reception with the PHD2, I have clear line of sight to the 3 North Sydney TV Towers but do not know which tower to point the PHD2 to, does it really matter? I do not have clear line of sight to the Kings Cross Tower, a neighbours house &/or tree blocks it.

Last night I watched digital TV with no antenna, that is the coax was hanging out of the roof only, my neighbour does not use any antenna at all! Tonight I have attached the PHD2 and have signal strength 0% quality 0%. Earlier today I was playing around with the direction of the
PHD2 antenna and had achieved quality 100% for 7 and in the 90's% for most channels although 10 and SBS would intermittently and regularly drop to quality 0% , strength varies alot as well....what is sufficient quality % i.e is over 80% quality good enough and over 50% strength good enough? What is the minimum requirements.

I gave up today and was going to get a professional in to fix it, however after scanning this forum i will give it one more week, so...I am going to try a new STB tomorrow I have a Sanyo TUHD 1000, it is the only part that I have not changed. I am using Compressed F connectors from the antenna to TV outlet with one F-connection splitter(T style, i.e 3 F-connections), I am also using a 6db attenuator to the set top box...works better with attenuator for channel 7. Another question I have is, what does 6db mean exactly, does it mean that the signal is reduced by 6db or does it mean the signal is now set at 6db?  

Also with Amplifiers, can you amplify certain channels or does it amplify the whole signal? I do not have an amplifier installed...just wondering!

I have only minimal knowledge of TV reception, I thought I would enjoy the challenge but it really is bringing back my boyhood memories of my father on the roof screaming "how is it now?", and I having to run in and out of the house giving him an update...He could never get it right but we spent many many hours and many days over the course of many years trying to get better reception...Man I hated it...I kind of know how he felt now...I just want to win! Although I think it is harder to get it right with Digital reception! In fact i am thinking DIY installation is a stupid thing to try these days, at least with Analogue you could still watch something. Please help.

Jim

[alanh]

jtsiontsis,
It sounds as if the signal is too strong. The overloaded receiver will give 0 quality under these conditions.

Buy an attenuator and insert it at the antenna input to the receiver.

You should be able to get good reception on all analog stations except ABC2 analog.

AlanH

[GlennP]

Jim,
If you can see all three North Sydney Towers then point your antenna at the Artarmon one (furthest to your left when looking at them). Nine digital comes from Willoughby (furthest North from you) all other digital signals come from Artarmon with Willoughby & Gore Hill as backup sites. (smallest elements pointing towards the tower).
The 6db attenuator means the signal is reduced by 6db.
Installing the 6db attenuator has now negated any VHF gain from your antenna PHD2 as it has a 5-7db gain. It's hard to tell without properly measuring the signal levels (not via the STB), but if you get better reception with the attenuator it seems you may have too much signal, if you can go back to the PHD1 try it & see if it gets better or put a higher db attenuator in-line & see what happens. Amplifiers generally amplify all channels, though you can get them to do one channel only. From the information you've given I wouldn't be considering an amplifier of any kind yet.

[mtv]

You most likely have extremly high signal levels.... an amplifier will make the problem worse.

Without accurate signal measurements it's unknown how much you need to reduce the signal levels by (attenuation) but from your description, I would expect at least 12-24dB.

You can purchase variable attenuators, which you just turn the knob to turn down the signal levels (eg: like a volume control).

http://www.jaycar.co...mp;form=KEYWORD

Edited by mtv, 07 August 2011 - 01:31 PM.

[jtsiontsis]

Thankyou for your replies they are very helpful, you would not believe it but my STB blew up last night after I posted. So today I watched Analogue TV only via the PHD2 via 6Db Attenuator direct to TV and there was only a little ghosting...the Mrs could not even notice it. So I went to Kmart and purchased a new Olin HD PVR ready STB HBVTR-1200 ($69). I have not touched anything else since yesterday...and guess what...perfect Digital picture all channels. Seems like the Sanyo STB I had was flaky! I will monitor the reception for the next few days but so far I have not had any pixellation...however its normally on Sundays that the reception is best for me. I will keep you posted.

[ohwoot]

Hi All,

I bought a DSE LCD TV (with built in HD TV Tuner) a couple of days ago for the bedroom however I’ve tried a couple of rabbit ear Antenna’s (ranging from $20 - $50) but I can’t seem to get all the analogue or digital channels. In fact the cheaper one found more channels than the more expensive one (which has an inbuilt amplifier). They both did well to find SBS channels with clear HD as well but no luck with Seven, Nine and few more. There is a lot of ‘noise’ and pixellation in the pictures too.

I am in an apartment block (in Pennant Hills) and the bedroom does not have a wall socket for the antenna either.

I’m trying to find out what my options are before I try a flat Antenna from JB Hi Fi for about $100. I’m not sure how expensive it is but I guess one option is to split the current antenna connection and get another wall socket in the bedroom but I’m not sure how easy / hard that is in an apartment.

Any suggestions or recommendation for products I could try ?

Thanks,

Saahil

[alanh]

Saahil
Read the first post in this strand. Click on the Indoor antenna link and use the H34 recommendation.

Alanh

[mtv]

 ohwoot, on Sep 16 2011, 10:34 AM, said:

I guess one option is to split the current antenna connection and get another wall socket in the bedroom but I'm not sure how easy / hard that is in an apartment.

If you have reliable digital reception on the existing outlet, installing an additional outlet would provide the best result, as indoor antennas only work well in very good signal areas and unless you are in an elevated spot in Pennant Hills, with a clear view towards the main north shore transmitters, then reception with an indoor antenna will probably be unreliable.

[smcka]

I've bought a Poletec LP35 for use in Galston - Light blue area. We cannot get 1, 7Mate and Gem (so seems to be all the 'secondary' channels); at best we get audio but no picture. We have a Tivo unit into an old clunker telly, but this all worked OK with the old 15+ antenna. The current antenna is pointed roughly towards Atratmon.

I've kept the Kingray masthead amp off the old antenna. Unsure of power, etc as I installed this myself.

We have a thunderstorm in Sydney and we are getting severe disruption and outages (and I am trying to watch Bathurst).

Apart from the obvious of getting in a antenna guy, what recommendations could you suggest? Just a bot over not being able to get what I think we should.

[mtv]

 smcka, on Oct 8 2011, 04:07 PM, said:

I've bought a Poletec LP35 for use in Galston - Light blue area. We cannot get 1, 7Mate and Gem (so seems to be all the 'secondary' channels); at best we get audio but no picture. We have a Tivo unit into an old clunker telly, but this all worked OK with the old 15+ antenna. The current antenna is pointed roughly towards Atratmon.

I've kept the Kingray masthead amp off the old antenna. Unsure of power, etc as I installed this myself.

We have a thunderstorm in Sydney and we are getting severe disruption and outages (and I am trying to watch Bathurst).

Apart from the obvious of getting in a antenna guy, what recommendations could you suggest? Just a bot over not being able to get what I think we should.

Not receiving the HD channels but the SD channels are OK, suggests you only have an SD tuner.

If you needed an amp previously for reliable digital reception, you may still require one, or you may not,.... it all depends on the signal strength and more importantly, the signal quality arriving at the antenna.

Pointing an antenna 'roughly' at a transmitter in difficult reception areas is usually not sufficient. You need accurate alignment and mounting the antenna in the optimum signal location, as even just a few centimetres difference in any direction, including up/down can make a huge difference.

Different antennas perform differently, so replacing an antenna in the identical position with a different type of antenna doesn't necessarily mean reception will be the same or better than previously.

What can you do without getting an antenna guy in?.... not a lot, unless you have a digital signal instrument which can measure DCP, pre-viterbi BER, MER and NM. (and of course understanding it all and applying the information to determine any issues and how to correct them).

Check all your connections and cabling. If you have fitted an F connector, ensure there are no stray strands of braid or foil shorting on the centre conductor.

A good installer will perferm a signal site survey, all over your roof, at different heights (and even other places on your property if suitable signal levels are not found on the roof) with different antennas, to determine which antenna and mounting location provides the best result.

Without performing a site survey with accurate instrumentation, all you can do is experiment and you may never find that magical 'sweet spot' which provides reliable digital reception.

As for lightning... even with excellent signals, lightning can cause interference, but the poorer the signals, the greater the effect the lightning will have on reception.

Having said all that, if it all worked OK previously, then it can again.

It may be something as simple as a crook connection.

[smcka]

We have a Tivo which I'm lead to believe is HD.

Guess I am getting an antenna guy in...

[alanh]

smcka,
Why?
If your reception does not break up into blocks or the sound goes on and off there is no reason to.

For more information including antenna installers read the first post in this strand.

AlanH

[mtv]

As I mentioned before, if the SD channels are OK, the HD channels should be too.

Another possibility is that the Tivo required a firmware update.

Can you borrow an HD set top box to check if it works OK with your antenna?

[smcka]

alanh: Why? Well if you read mtv post he makes quite a valid point that all I am doing is guessing. Why wouldn't you get in a guy with the right gear to make sure you are getting the correct signal?

mtv: Tivo updates itself I think, not sure about firmware but. I'll upgrade to the newer cable we were supplied with the antenna and bypass the amplifier. If neither of those work I'm actually not too fussed. I watch about 2 hours of telly per week and that's mainly the news. I'm only concerned about not getting the few HD channels out there but really I don't actually care about them. Thanks for your balanced replies and suggestions but.

[mtv]

smcka,

You are going to bypass the amp?.... perhaps I misunderstood when you said previously that you had 'kept' the amp that you just kept it, but didn't install it.

So assuming you have the amp connected, it's possible (especially now with the new antenna) it's producing too much signal level, overloading the tuner.

Tivo tuners are very fickle with signal strength and quality and I have seen a few do similar things to what you are describing (some missing channels, others OK etc) due to overloading signals, both in band and out of band.

Does the amp have an adjutable gain control?.... If yes, try turning it down.

Yes, try without the amp as well. remember to remove it from the antenna cable altogther, not just turn off the power to it.

I regularly remove amps that were installed for analogue reception, which are causing problems with digital reception.

As you understand, it's difficult to know exactly what your signals are doing without instrumentation connected to measure them, but try those things and see how you go.

[smcka]

Thanks Col.

The amp was used with the aerial installed by Fred Flintstone. I have used it with the new digital antenna so will bypass it and run new cable from antenna to Tivo and see what happens. Least we can cross that little issue off the list  

[parki]

Hi all,

note sure if anyone's still listening here :-) Anyway, I'll ask my question, hopefully someone will see it.

I'm in the boonies of Castle Hill, and get my best reception from the Wollongong transmitter (although the Sydney commercial stations are usually ok except when the weather is lousy). ABC I only get from the Gong, and it's generally poor.

My setup is a fairly recent antenna (not sure how old, since I've only been the house for three years) with an mast amplifier. The signal is then split via a signal amplifier to an HTPC and a TV (without the second amp I get no stations with both the TV and HTPC hooked up, just one works ok, however, though ABC is still rubbish).

I've had a local antenna guy out and he says the signals are ok and the antenna is pointing the right way (of course, that was a dead calm day).

So, my question to whomever is listening, is what to do to get ABC reception working reliabily? I know have two amps in the mix isn't the best, but it works for the other channels! Any suggestions?

[nbound]

With a masthead to two outlets you shouldnt require a splitter amp also, unless your runs are very long, or if the masthead is only a low gain (20/24db). If neither is the case it sounds like the signal at the aerials themselves is too low (you cant reliably amplify signal from near nothing).

Also IIRC, ABC Sydney (Digital) is CH12; some older aerials werent designed to receive channels on this frequency.

Pics of the aerial setup might help too. Incase any components are being misidentified. Also u seem to refer to only one antenna, you will need two to get both Sydney and Wollongong. What kind of bad weather causes your other issues?